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Resource Monotype SM Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'Monotype' started by Vid, Dec 15, 2016.

  1. Vid

    Vid Fear the Deer
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2014
    Messages:
    550
    Monotype Viability Rankings
    [​IMG]
    artwork by Chras
    approved by scpinion
    Welcome to the Sun and Moon Monotype Viability Rankings. Monotype ranks Pokemon differently from OU’s VR. In OU Pokemon are often ranked based on how many roles the Pokemon can perform. In Monotype, Pokemon are ranked based upon the number of positive matchups they provide for their type. For example, Landorus-Therian can fill many roles on Ground and Flying teams, but is ranked lower than Landorus because Landorus can easily win certain matchups. Most Pokemon are placed into one of five different rankings S, A, B, C, D. Some Pokemon aren’t listed either because they are either completely outclassed or somebody has not done a write up for that specific Pokemon. Pokemon are ranked separately for each type. For example, Lanturn is useful on Water because of Volt Absorb while on Electric the Electric-type immunity is unnecessary.​

    The initial Viability Rankings were made by the VR council and respected members of the community, so the list is not perfect. Certain Pokemon may be misplaced or unranked. The ranks listed are not final, so if anything is misplaced feel free to make a one to two paragraph post detailing why the Pokemon’s rank should be changed. In the early stages of Sun and Moon we’d like to primarily focus on S, A, and now B Ranks. Discussion on all ranks is permitted However, if a viable Pokemon isn’t ranked please feel free to PM or VM Viability rankings council about it.


    General / Write up Rules
    • Flaming will not be tolerated. (Please respectfully debate each other's nominations)
    • Post smartly, don't just be like "I like Gogoat so it should be in S Tier!!!"
    • Stay on topic. As much as I would like to see a petition saying that XYZ Pokemon should be unbanned (not here please)
    • Only do a write up on Pokemon you have experience with (No theorymoning)
    • Avoid posting pointless 1 Liners
    Viability Ranking Council: These people will have the final say if a decision by the community cannot be reached or a Pokemon is completely misplaced. If you have any questions or need help, please PM / VM these people.


    How to rank
    • Include the Pokemon you're rating, the type, and what rank you want it to be.
    • (This is recommended not required) Include at least 1 set. Some Pokemon may have more than one set.
    • Provide an explanation as to why you put it in that rank and how it fares in Monotype
    Monotype Viablity Rankings in Alphabetical order
    Bug (open)
    S Rank
    [​IMG] Mega Pinsir
    [​IMG] Scizor
    [​IMG] Volcarona

    A Rank
    [​IMG] Araquanid
    [​IMG] Armaldo
    [​IMG] Buzzwole
    [​IMG] Forretress
    [​IMG] Galvantula
    [​IMG] Heracross
    [​IMG] Mega Scizor
    [​IMG] Shuckle

    B Rank
    [​IMG] Scolipede
    [​IMG] Vikavolt
    [​IMG] Yanmega

    C Rank
    [​IMG] Durant
    [​IMG] Golisopod
    [​IMG] Vivillon

    D Rank
    [​IMG] Mega Beedrill
    [​IMG] Scyther
    [​IMG] Volbeat
    Dark (open)
    S Rank
    [​IMG] Greninja
    [​IMG] Mega Sableye
    [​IMG] Tyranitar

    A Rank
    [​IMG] Bisharp
    [​IMG] Hydreigon
    [​IMG] Mega Sharpedo
    [​IMG] Muk-Alola
    [​IMG] Mandibuzz

    B Rank
    [​IMG] Krookodile
    [​IMG] Sharpedo
    [​IMG] Weavile

    C Rank
    [​IMG] Crawdaunt
    [​IMG] Honchkrow
    [​IMG] Mega Absol
    [​IMG] Persian-Alola
    [​IMG] Umbreon
    [​IMG] Zoroark

    D Rank
    [​IMG] Cacturne
    [​IMG] Guzzlord
    [​IMG] Incineroar
    Dragon (open)
    S Rank
    [​IMG] Dragonite
    [​IMG] Garchomp
    [​IMG] Kyurem-Black
    [​IMG] Latios

    A Rank
    [​IMG] Hydreigon
    [​IMG] Latias
    [​IMG] Salamence

    B Rank
    [​IMG] Dragalge
    [​IMG] Kommo-o
    [​IMG] Mega Garchomp

    C Rank
    [​IMG] Flygon
    [​IMG] Goodra
    [​IMG] Kingdra
    [​IMG] Tyrantrum

    D Rank
    [​IMG] Druddigon
    [​IMG] Guzzlord
    [​IMG] Haxorus
    [​IMG] Noivern
    [​IMG] Turtonator
    Electric (open)
    S Rank
    [​IMG] Golem-Alola
    [​IMG] Raichu-Alola
    [​IMG] Rotom-Wash
    [​IMG] Tapu Koko
    [​IMG] Zapdos

    A Rank
    [​IMG] Magnezone
    [​IMG] Xurkitree

    B Rank
    [​IMG] Raikou
    [​IMG] Thundurus

    C Rank
    [​IMG] Eelektross
    [​IMG] Electivire
    [​IMG] Galvantula
    [​IMG] Luxray
    [​IMG] Vikavolt

    D Rank
    [​IMG] Rotom-Mow
    [​IMG] Stunfisk
    [​IMG] Thundurus-Therian
    Fairy (open)
    S Rank
    [​IMG] Azumarill
    [​IMG] Klefki
    [​IMG] Magearna
    [​IMG] Tapu Bulu
    [​IMG] Tapu Koko

    A Rank
    [​IMG] Clefable
    [​IMG] Tapu Fini
    [​IMG] Togekiss

    B Rank
    [​IMG] Diancie
    [​IMG] Gardevoir
    [​IMG] Mimikyu
    [​IMG] Sylveon

    C Rank
    [​IMG] Ninetales-Alola
    [​IMG] Slurpuff
    [​IMG] Whimsicott

    D Rank
    [​IMG] Florges
    [​IMG] Granbull
    Fighting (open)
    S Rank
    [​IMG] Keldeo
    [​IMG] Terrakion

    A Rank
    [​IMG] Breloom
    [​IMG] Buzzwole
    [​IMG] Cobalion
    [​IMG] Heracross
    [​IMG] Infernape

    B Rank
    [​IMG] Hawlucha
    [​IMG] Kommo-o
    [​IMG] Lucario
    [​IMG] Pangoro
    [​IMG] Toxicroak

    C Rank
    [​IMG] Chesnaught
    [​IMG] Conkeldurr
    [​IMG] Machamp
    [​IMG] Scrafty

    D Rank
    [​IMG] Crabominable
    [​IMG] Hariyama
    [​IMG] Mienshao
    [​IMG] Poliwrath
    [​IMG] Sawk
    Fire (open)
    S Rank
    [​IMG] Mega Charizard-X
    [​IMG] Mega Charizard-Y
    [​IMG] Torkoal

    A Rank
    [​IMG] Heatran
    [​IMG] Infernape
    [​IMG] Victini
    [​IMG] Volcanion
    [​IMG] Volcarona

    B Rank
    [​IMG] Darmanitan
    [​IMG] Entei
    [​IMG] Rotom-Heat

    C Rank
    [​IMG] Arcanine
    [​IMG] Chandelure
    [​IMG] Marowak-Alola
    [​IMG] Salazzle
    [​IMG] Talonflame

    D Rank
    [​IMG] Houndoom
    [​IMG] Ninetales
    Flying (open)
    S Rank
    [​IMG] Landorus
    [​IMG] Landorus-Therian
    [​IMG] Mantine
    [​IMG] Mega Charizard-Y
    [​IMG] Skarmory
    [​IMG] Zapdos

    A Rank
    [​IMG] Celesteela
    [​IMG] Dragonite
    [​IMG] Gliscor
    [​IMG] Togekiss

    B Rank
    [​IMG] Aerodactyl
    [​IMG] Gyarados
    [​IMG] Mega Aerodactyl
    [​IMG] Salamence
    [​IMG] Thundurus

    C Rank
    [​IMG] Honchkrow
    [​IMG] Minior
    [​IMG] Talonflame
    [​IMG] Tornadus-Therian
    [​IMG] Thundurus-Therian

    D Rank
    [​IMG] Articuno
    [​IMG] Tornadus
    Ghost (open)
    S Rank
    [​IMG] Gengar
    [​IMG] Mega Sableye
    [​IMG] Mimikyu
    A Rank
    [​IMG] Jellicent
    [​IMG] Marowak-Alola

    B Rank
    [​IMG] Chandelure
    [​IMG] Dhelmise
    [​IMG] Doublade
    [​IMG] Golurk
    [​IMG] Gourgeist-Super
    [​IMG] Hoopa
    [​IMG] Sableye

    C Rank
    [​IMG] Cofagrigus
    [​IMG] Decidueye
    [​IMG] Drifblim
    [​IMG] Froslass
    [​IMG] Rotom

    D Rank
    [​IMG] Palossand
    Grass (open)
    S Rank
    [​IMG] Ferrothorn
    [​IMG] Mega Venusaur

    A Rank
    [​IMG] Breloom
    [​IMG] Cradily
    [​IMG] Tapu Bulu

    B Rank
    [​IMG] Dhelmise
    [​IMG] Celebi
    [​IMG] Rotom-Mow
    [​IMG] Serperior
    [​IMG] Whimsicott

    C Rank
    [​IMG] Amoonguss
    [​IMG] Decidueye
    [​IMG] Gourgeist-Super
    [​IMG] Leavanny
    [​IMG] Roserade
    [​IMG] Tangrowth

    D Rank
    [​IMG] Ludicolo
    [​IMG] Tsareena
    Ground (open)
    S Rank
    [​IMG] Excadrill
    [​IMG] Hippowdon
    [​IMG] Landorus

    A Rank
    [​IMG] Dugtrio
    [​IMG] Garchomp
    [​IMG] Gastrodon
    [​IMG] Landorus-Therian
    [​IMG] Mamoswine
    [​IMG] Seismitoad

    B Rank
    [​IMG] Gliscor
    [​IMG] Mega Garchomp
    [​IMG] Nidoking

    C Rank
    [​IMG] Diggersby
    [​IMG] Flygon
    [​IMG] Krookodile

    D Rank
    [​IMG] Mega Steelix
    [​IMG] Palossand
    [​IMG] Quagsire
    [​IMG] Torterra
    Ice (open)
    S Rank
    [​IMG] Avalugg
    [​IMG] Kyurem-Black
    [​IMG] Mamoswine

    A Rank
    [​IMG] Lapras
    [​IMG] Ninetales-Alola
    [​IMG] Piloswine
    [​IMG] Sandslash-Alola
    [​IMG] Walrein
    [​IMG] Weavile

    B Rank
    [​IMG] Aurorus
    [​IMG] Beartic
    [​IMG] Cloyster
    [​IMG] Froslass
    [​IMG] Mega Glalie
    [​IMG] Rotom-Frost

    C Rank
    [​IMG] Articuno
    [​IMG] Crabominable
    [​IMG] Cryogonal

    D Rank
    [​IMG] Abomasnow
    [​IMG] Glaceon
    Normal (open)
    S Rank
    [​IMG] Chansey
    [​IMG] Porygon2
    [​IMG] Porygon-Z
    [​IMG] Staraptor

    A Rank
    [​IMG] Diggersby
    [​IMG] Ditto
    [​IMG] Meloetta

    B Rank
    [​IMG] Bewear
    [​IMG] Dodrio
    [​IMG] Mega Pidgeot
    [​IMG] Smeargle
    [​IMG] Snorlax
    [​IMG] Swellow

    C Rank
    [​IMG] Drampa
    [​IMG] Heliolisk
    [​IMG] Mega Audino
    [​IMG] Miltank
    [​IMG] Silvally

    D Rank
    [​IMG] Blissey
    [​IMG] Braviary
    [​IMG] Komala
    [​IMG] Oranguru
    [​IMG] Toucannon
    Poison (open)
    S Rank
    [​IMG] Mega Venusaur
    [​IMG] Muk-Alola
    [​IMG] Toxapex

    A Rank
    [​IMG] Crobat
    [​IMG] Gengar
    [​IMG] Nidoking
    [​IMG] Nidoqueen
    [​IMG] Nihilego
    [​IMG] Scolipede

    B Rank
    [​IMG] Drapion
    [​IMG] Skuntank
    [​IMG] Tentacruel

    C Rank
    [​IMG] Dragalge
    [​IMG] Golbat
    [​IMG] Mega Beedrill
    [​IMG] Salazzle
    [​IMG] Toxicroak
    [​IMG] Weezing

    D Rank
    [​IMG] Amoonguss
    [​IMG] Roserade
    [​IMG] Qwilfish
    Psychic (open)
    S Rank
    [​IMG] Mew
    [​IMG] Victini

    A Rank
    [​IMG] Alakazam
    [​IMG] Deoxys-Speed
    [​IMG] Gardevoir
    [​IMG] Jirachi
    [​IMG] Latios
    [​IMG] Mega Alakazam
    [​IMG] Mega Slowbro
    [​IMG] Meloetta
    [​IMG] Slowbro

    B Rank
    [​IMG] Azelf
    [​IMG] Celebi
    [​IMG] Gothitelle

    C Rank
    [​IMG] Cresselia
    [​IMG] Deoxys-Defense
    [​IMG] Gallade
    [​IMG] Latias
    [​IMG] Necrozma
    [​IMG] Starmie

    D Rank
    [​IMG] Espeon
    [​IMG] Medicham
    [​IMG] Slowking
    [​IMG] Uxie
    [​IMG] Wobbuffet
    Rock (open)
    S Rank
    [​IMG] Terrakion
    [​IMG] Tyranitar

    A Rank
    [​IMG] Cradily
    [​IMG] Mega Aerodactyl
    [​IMG] Nihilego
    [​IMG] Omastar
    [​IMG] Rhyperior
    [​IMG] Shuckle

    B Rank
    [​IMG] Aerodactyl
    [​IMG] Diancie
    [​IMG] Golem-Alola
    [​IMG] Lycanroc

    C Rank
    [​IMG] Archeops
    [​IMG] Tyrantrum
    [​IMG] Minior

    D Rank
    [​IMG] Aurorus
    [​IMG] Gigalith
    [​IMG] Kabutops
    Steel (open)
    S Rank
    [​IMG] Heatran
    [​IMG] Magearna
    [​IMG] Skarmory

    A Rank
    [​IMG]
    Celesteela
    [​IMG] Excadrill
    [​IMG] Ferrothorn
    [​IMG] Magnezone
    [​IMG] Mega Scizor

    B Rank
    [​IMG] Bisharp
    [​IMG] Doublade
    [​IMG] Jirachi
    [​IMG] Klefki
    [​IMG] Scizor

    C Rank
    [​IMG] Cobalion
    [​IMG] Durant
    [​IMG] Empoleon

    D Rank
    [​IMG] Bronzong
    [​IMG] Forretress
    [​IMG] Dugtrio-Alola
    [​IMG] Magneton
    Water (open)
    S Rank
    [​IMG] Greninja
    [​IMG] Manaphy
    [​IMG] Mega Sharpedo

    A Rank
    [​IMG] Azumarill
    [​IMG] Empoleon
    [​IMG] Gyarados
    [​IMG] Keldeo
    [​IMG] Kingdra
    [​IMG] Lanturn
    [​IMG] Mantine
    [​IMG] Mega Gyarados
    [​IMG] Mega Slowbro
    [​IMG] Pelipper
    [​IMG] Swampert
    [​IMG] Tapu Fini
    [​IMG] Toxapex

    B Rank
    [​IMG] Alomomola
    [​IMG] Cloyster
    [​IMG] Quagsire
    [​IMG] Rotom-Wash
    [​IMG] Sharpedo
    [​IMG] Seismitoad
    [​IMG] Slowbro
    [​IMG] Starmie
    [​IMG] Tentacruel

    C Rank
    [​IMG] Feraligatr
    [​IMG] Golisopod
    [​IMG] Kabutops
    [​IMG] Politoed
    [​IMG] Suicune
    [​IMG] Volcanion

    D Rank
    [​IMG] Araquanid
    [​IMG] Crawdaunt
    [​IMG] Ludicolo
    [​IMG] Slowking
    Blacklist
    These Pokemon have been brought up multiple times for discussion with the same arguments or are just awful. A type can be blacklisted if it is an extreme circumstance. If anyone talks about a Pokemon that is blacklisted your post will be deleted and or infracted.
    • [​IMG] Gourgeist
    Last edited: May 6, 2017
  2. Megazard

    Megazard All in a day's work
    is an official Team Rateris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2013
    Messages:
    4,027
    first or something
    I like how the preliminary VR came out for the most part, but fighting kinda bugs me. I've seen p much nobody other than myself use it so I'm sure there's some differences of opinion there, but after spending a good amount of time fiddling with it some of the ranks dont see right.
    Infernape is a bit weak for S rank, lead and offensive sets are both fine but I can't place much more value on it. Fighting has plenty of options with decent speed and priority and boosting and wallbreaking and all that, and infernape doesn't exactly add a ton to some matchups. It can perform those roles just fine, but S rank sort of implies that it has this unique and crucial role that's hard to build without, that certainly doesn't apply to offensive and rocks faces enough competition with coballion (e: i didn't mean to imply they do the same thing, more that ape isn't the only choice for a rocker/lead fighting has and I haven't found myself at a significant disadvantage because I dont have it as a lead) that I dont think it's quite as mandatory as, say, terrak
    Toxicroak isn't a mediocre C-rank choice anymore, fairy might be worse overall but Fighting has a worse time facing it and the presence of Toxapex (along with a few other improvements) also makes poison and water a lot more annoying. A lot of its function is to CT random types that you're having issues with, but that doesn't stop it from being a big help with those 3 as well as being generally more useful than average vs ghost and grass. Its unique presence is a lot more of a boon now that the types it annoys have received enough buffs that you actually, say, face grass more than once a month. I think B would be more fitting
    Buzzwole is something I stopped using fairly early on so I'm sure its role has changed and maybe this is more asking for a justification rather than giving concrete reasons, but why is it higher than lucha/kommo, or even just considered on the same level as heracross? It has some defensive presence but on such an offensive type it comes off as more of a momentum sink if you're trying to run bulk up or whatever, and in a regular offensive role it's like heracross except without CC or megahorn and doesn't even get to choose between guts and moxie. All it has going for it is strong coverage on a type that's basically all about strong coverage already. Speed tier is also annoying since you lose out on those base 80s (dnite, hoopa, mamoswine, togekiss).
    Not fully sold on this yet but I was massively underrating Kommo-O earlier and it might need a rise at some point. It's a fighting type that, get this, actually isn't completely destroyed by mega venusar! (bulletproof if that wasn't clear, u can still get stalled by leech seed but with other mons and maybe taunt from coba it's something) I like DD for abusing poison but I did run into an autoto one which was scary, it's slightly slow but between decent coverage and different boosting options it's not quite as one-dimensional as its fellow B ranks, if not as devastating as say lucha if you get it right

    Also I don't see the deos ranked on psychic, deo-s was definitely usable on ladder so I think it might be an accidental omission
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2016
    Wanka, Waszap and Boyeraj17 like this.
  3. readyletsgo

    readyletsgo

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2016
    Messages:
    26
    Ok I just have to say.
    Stunfisk (electric) Unranked => B rank
    Stunfisk not being ranked is laughable IMO. Did you know that 252hp/4spd Stunfisk can live a life orb hydro pump from Greninja, and KO it in return with discharge in elec terrain? Replay below, but I can also show you dozens of replays where stunfisk was a great contributor to a victory.
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-492961542

    Right after that it passes out a static to scarf krookodile when it goes for the knock off. Like, I am 100 percent serious when I say it is much better than golem for setting rocks, because you can almost always set it more than once per game, which is a big boon for a more balanced-offensive electric team. STAB earth power un-invested 2hko mega metagross. Give it a rocky helmet and watch is pass out damage and paralysis to attackers with ease, making it impossible for a lot of common spinners to take down it's rocks, such as armaldo and torkoal. Or just give it leftovers with SR, earth power, toxic and discharge/foul play/pain split.

    I honestly don't see how it is unranked, and definitely should be above stuff like Vikavolt, which is nigh worthless in electric monotype, and I definitely don't see how Alolan Golem gets an A rank, when the only thing it can do is set rocks and die instantly, or perhaps explode on something very slow. I have found Golem to be underwhelming for electric sadly.

    Also I feel Rotom-Mow deserves a C rank of some kind. The scarf set with hp ice and trick along with leaf storm and volt switch puts a lot of pressure on ground teams and water teams that have lanturn and/or ground/waters. Plus having a trick available is great for electric teams to put the quash on stall/set up mons that electric has a hard time getting past, like calm minders and eviolite users.

    I hope my words about stunfisk can change the mind of even just one user out there! Stunfisk for B rank!
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2016
    Netheriser, Kennyth, Asziran and 7 others like this.
  4. juleocesar

    juleocesar

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2013
    Messages:
    208
    Alright I feel like bringing up several pokemons I disagree with their current rankings. I have made some tests myself and I am gonna share my thoughts about them.

    Dhelmise (Grass) A => B

    [​IMG]

    I have tested this Pokemon on the very first days of the Sun and Moon metagame, and I have realized it doesn't fit A rank Pokemon really well. First of all, Grass teams cannot make the most of Rapid Spin support Dhelmise provides (It isn't a necessary tool and it racks up even more momentum that Grass teams already lack), which makes it a rather poor chance when related to other avaliable utility options (Whimsicott, Rotom, Celebi, or any other Pokemon you might use to handle a hard matchup like Poison, or to counter a key threat like Celesteela, for example), which you should be using to handle more other difficult matchups. Furthermore, its lack of reliable recovery and support movepool (It doesn't even get Will-o-wisp like Gourgeist and Trevenant does) causes it to be ineffective against common metagame threats, some of which Pokemon like Mega-Venusaur and Kartana can already handle pretty well on their own. It has a decent attack stat to abuse but not so good movepool but at least can put work with its signature move, Anchor Shot, as well as doing its job as a hazard removal, but again, this isn't extremely valuable asset like it is on Bug or Fire teams, and therefore, not a good reason to keep it A ranked. Also should be remembered that Grass/Ghost doesn't offer that much of a support in the sense it has a hard time covering its weakness (it still dies to most common Fire, Ice and Flying moves).

    I could detail a bit more this explanation if it wasn't that clear though, hopefully the idea was easy to get.

    Decidueye (Grass) A => B

    [​IMG]

    It has got nice bulk, access to Roost and even Defog , but again it should be ranked lower due to its somewhat underwhelming influence on most matchups in overall. Its capabilities are rather limited by its stats (especially speed), and it is still has to go offense since it faces competition from other Ghost typed mons (notably Gourgeist and Dhelmise, which tend to perform a better job defensively). It is meant to check Psychic teams mostly but the type has got loads of tools to get around it (Scarf Victini outspeeds and KOes it back), and it fails even to OHKO bulkier mons like Mega-Metagross, making it a not-so-good choice when related to other A ranked avaliable options. I believe A rank mons are reserved for more influential Pokemon in the type which are capable to handle a considerable amount of matchups (or at least making them overally easier), requiring minor support from its teammates, while still being able to provide a good amount of support to said teammates, and Decidueye just doesn't seem to do that really well. B rank sounds more suitable since its hard to fit in and isn't really useful on matchups as the other A rank mons are.


    (again its a bit redundant to have this in your team with Kartana around since it can use Night Slash and pull of a sweep vs Psychic late game once most of the mons are weakened. And yes I am aware Spirit Shackle can trap enemies but Grass teams could hardly abuse that anyways, maybe except to guarantee your opponent isn't double-switching you, and that's still not worth such high rank).


    Alolan-Exeggutor (Grass) D => C

    [​IMG]

    Ok, this is fairly obvious (or should be). It has got a decent movepool and typing which could potentially abuse, but unfortunately it is heavily limited by its stats (really garbage speed, making it nearly uneffective versus steel threats as it could be with its movepool, since it gets both earthquake and flamethrower). At least its secondary Dragon typing gives it a neutrality to Fire moves, which Grass teams appreciate, and access to Harvest grants it good ways to recover health and absorb status at the same time. And yes, this was tested by me before and had an above-average performance, which is the reason I find C ranks more fitting for it. Its role as a potential status absorber and taking on weak Fire moves can make it deserving a higher rank than the one it currently has (D is more fitting for Pokemon who are really niche-restricted, which isn't A-exegg's case I believe). The offenses are also decent and it can run phazing moves (Dragon Tail) and even some support ones (like Leech Seed), which confirms its decent movepool and amount of options.


    I might bring more posts about Grass Pokemon later. These changes are about Pokemon I am most confident with, and I believe they are fairly reasonable to agree with, so hopefully these won't be troublesome to handle by the VR council. I am testing more Pokemon and combinations (especially Bulu and Kartana, and these might have their own posts later on if a change is needed upon them).
  5. czim

    czim

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2016
    Messages:
    234
    I'd like to nom turtonator for b-rank (or at least c, but it's way more useful than other c ranks) on dragon, especially with the steel spam on the ladder/meta rn. It's basically the only dragon type that can switch in on mega metagross, its typing is a godsend being neutral to ice and fairy, it has a great support movepool in will-o-wisp and roar and is definitely not unranked material.


    Ps: it also has a very cool name
  6. RadiantLuna

    RadiantLuna

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2016
    Messages:
    6
    I like these overall, a few suggestions:

    Bewear(Normal) B=>A

    I think the best role for Bewear right now is as a Choice Band wallbreaker similar to Diggersby, whose main function is breaking bulky teams, particularly Steel/Rock. Fighting is a better STAB to lock into compared to Ground for this purpose, because Doublade is significantly less common than Pokemon like Skarmory/Celesteela. Rock usually runs several ground immunities (Minior, Aerodactyl), but has no Ghosts to switch into. Bewear has more switch in opportunities compared to Diggersby with better bulk, particularly on the physical side. Bewear can also serve as a check to physical Fighting Pokemon due to its ability- this is more useful for Normal compared to Diggersby's Electric immunity IMO because Normal usually just sponges Electric attacks with Chansey/P2 anyway.

    Tapu Bulu(Fairy) B=>A

    Tapu Bulu's terrain provides some team support in the more 'hidden' aspect of Grassy Terrain in that it halves the power of EQ (and Bulldoze and Magnitude) by half. Fairy often runs several Ground weak Pokemon (Klefki, Magearna) who can greatly benefit from this. Bulu itself is a strong offensive presence, particularly against types weak to Grass which have no switch in to CB Bulu. Fairy definitely has a large A tier, but it's hard to see it as only the same level as Sylveon and Whimsicott.

    Chandelure(Ghost) Unranked=>B

    Chandelure's best set is probably a Scarf set to make use of its high Special Attack. Ghost often runs several Pokemon weak to Fire (Dhelmise/Decidueye, Doublade), so having a Fire immunity and getting the Flash Fire boost is quite possible. Part of the reason I wouldn't put it in A rank is because it doubles up on weaknesses with the very useful Alolan-Marowak, but it's still a good Pokemon since Ghost is actually in need of a strong special attacker with all the new physical Ghosts added this gen.

    Medicham(Psychic) Unranked=>C

    Medicham serves a similar function as Gallade in that it's a physical Pokemon on a predominantly special type that KOs Steel and Dark types Psychic can have issues with. Medicham offers more immediate power than Gallade, with the tradeoff of not being as good at setting up and a movepool that has more trouble with Ghosts. Given Gallade's difficulty of setting up in the current meta, I would say they're about equal in their role.

    Medicham/Gallade being unranked on Fighting also seems a little odd given their ability to beat Poison types, but I'm not sure where they would be placed.
    I like donkeys and Dece1t like this.
  7. Waszap

    Waszap

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2016
    Messages:
    245
    just a couple questions;

    why is toxapex S on poison? same for zygarde on dragon.
    I also agree w/ megazard on the buzzwole, so would like to know the reasoning for its rank on both fighting and bug.
    Dece1t likes this.
  8. Declarity

    Declarity

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2013
    Messages:
    97
    Golurk (Ghost) A => B
    Last gen, Ghost really appreciated Golurk as it was the only viable SR setter, a very important hazard for Ghost to have. Now, we get another, better one in Alolan Marowak, which does everything Golurk does plus more. Marowak, although it does have an unwanted SR weakness itself, has a significantly better defensive typing, and one that is more appreciated on Ghost. Marowak also has the electric immunity, has comparable bulk (physically), has an infinitely higher Attack stat, and has better coverage. Dynamic Punch No Guard might be great, but with the Confusion nerf, and the new addition of a superior Stealth Rock user, Golurk only finds its fit on specific teams that need Ground support.

    Mega Garchomp (Ground) A => B
    With the addition of Zygarde, Landorus-I and sometimes even Gliscor being commonly used, Mega Garchomp often finds trouble fitting on most Ground archetypes, as you'd have to remove one of the first two mentioned or else risk having three 4x Ice weaknesses. Zygarde-50% reaches comparable Attack after a Dragon Dance and has better coverage with Thousand Arrows, plus has the ability to run an actual item. Again, same case as Golurk: Good Pokemon that often finds some trouble fitting on teams due to other options performing better than it. Besides that, it is still a good Pokemon and ground's only Mega Evolution, boasting a sky high 170 Attack and good bulk, but its overall flaws in comparison with its strenghts make me think it is worthy of a B rank.

    Ludicolo (Grass) Unranked => C
    Ludicolo is a very solid check to Fire monos that Grass really struggles with, especially this gen. It brings rain support to the entire team (but moreso itself) and can usually OHKO most Fire types under the Rain. It falls a bit short due to its sheer lack of good stats, especially Special Attack and Speed, but it is definitely an option that might fit on some teams that cannot handle Fire (which, again, seems to be most Grass monos this gen, from what I have personally seen) and teams that need some form of speed control (Kartana sometimes cannot do it alone) so I think it deserves the C rank.
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2016
  9. futuron

    futuron

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2016
    Messages:
    16
    Bringing something fairly controversial to the table.


    Charizard-Mega-Y (Fire) S=>A
    [​IMG]
    In ORAS this mon was undoubtedly not only easily an S mon but also a staple for most fire teams. It was a great asset for fire because of its offensive prowess but what really set it apart was the ability to set sun which would bolster its attacks as well as attacks coming from already powerful mons such as band entei or specs volcanion to outrageous levels allowing them to wallbreak pretty much everything. With the advent of SM however, we now have access to drought torkoal which can provide three more turns of sun as well as phaze opposing mons, set rocks and spin. The council also recently unbanned zardx which is really why I think this VR change should be discussed. Zardx brings very powerful wallbreaking and sweeping potential to fire teams with plenty of coverage, one of the best setup moves in the game, a great ability and sun provided by torkoal allowing it to setup and sweep types such as electric, dark, psychic, steel, flying and fire once threats such as mandibuzz on dark or slowbro on psychic are out of the way. At a glace this nomination might seem completely brainless but what we should really be looking at is the opportunity cost that running zardy over zardx has.

    tldr is it really worth running y over x?

    e; quick nitpick at ranking
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2016
    Boyeraj17, RadiantLuna and Declarity like this.
  10. Zarif

    Zarif Champions yet again
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2014
    Messages:
    360
    A new generation with new viability rankings :D Can't wait to take part and read all the discussions about the new metagame. I'll share my thoughts on a few certain Pokemon:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG] Talonflame (Fire) D -> B [​IMG]

    The huge Gale Wings nerf led to the council unbanning Talonflame for Monotype. At first, it might seem that Talonflame is practically useless in the new metagame as it can't effectively abuse Gale Wings, but the Smogonbird can still effectively do what it could before. I've been messing around with a Swords Dance + Acrobatics set and I love it already. I'm running Will-O-Wisp and Roost as support moves to allow Talonflame to easily set up versus a number of Pokemon and then Roost back to 100% to make use of Gale Wings. Talonflame finally fixes the dreadful matchup Fire has vs Fighting teams with Terrakion/Keldeo with its Flying STAB. Even without Gale Wings, Talonflame boasts an impressive Speed stat that lets it outspeed Pokemon with base 110 Speed without a Speed boosting nature. It's not like Talonflame is deadweight in other matchups either, it's a massive help against Dragons like Dragonite and Garchomp due to its access to Will-O-Wisp. However, Talonflame still comes with a lot disadvantages. Its 4x weakness to Stealth Rock and pretty sub-par bulk makes it very hard to setup Swords Dance against a lot of Pokemon. With all of these in mind, Talonflame should definitely be at least B rank on Fire.

    Set (open)

    Talonflame
    Ability: Gale Wings
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Acrobatics
    - Roost
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Swords Dance


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG] Salazzle (Fire) D-> B [​IMG]

    Salazzle is another Pokemon that boasts an incredible Speed stat (which is quite rare for Fire-types). With its 117 base Speed, it outspeeds huge threats to Fire teams like Latios, Keldeo, and Garchomp. Salazzle's Poison-typing is a god-send for Fire teams, as it eases up on the Fairy matchup. Salazzle's movepool however is pretty lackluster. Outside of its STAB moves, Salazzle really doesn't have much going for it. Nasty Plot is nice to increase it's Special Attack and allow it to OHKO Pokemon like Keldeo and Latios, but its terrible bulk means it can't really setup on much. Hidden Power Ice is really nice against Dragon and Ground teams.. Salazzle definitely deserves B rank on Fire.

    Set (open)

    Salazzle @ Life Orb
    Ability: Corrosion
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
    - Sludge Wave
    - Fire Blast
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Nasty Plot

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG] Alolan-Marowak (Fire) B -> D [​IMG]

    Alolan-Marowak has everything right going on for it except its Speed. Decent Attack that gets doubled by Thick Club, decent bulk, good movepool, decent Abilities. But its Speed is just so below average that its beyond usable on Fire teams. 45 base Speed means it has to be EV'd enough to outspeed a few specific Pokemon like Azumarill, which results in not being able to be as bulky as possible. Alolan-Marowak's only place in Fire teams would be in a Trick Room team which is highly unreliable, as Fire only has a few select Trick Room users. Sadly with all of this in mind, I can't see Alolan-Marowak with a higher rank than D on Fire.

    I'll reply to Futuron's post about Mega Charizard Y as well:
    I disagree with this. I do acknowledge all your points about Mega Charizard X being better than Mega Charizard Y. But Mega Charizard Y brings a huge advantage for Fire teams against Ground-, Rock-, and Water-type teams. With Torkoal having access to Drought, it might seem that Mega Charizard Y isn't that good anymore but Torkoal can't really make full use of the Drought unless it runs a Heat Rock. Torkoal's main job is to set up Stealth Rock or get rid of hazards. Doing all of these wastes a few turns. This is the opposite for Mega Charizard Y as it makes full use of the sun in every turn. Mega Charizard Y's access to Solar Beam is another huge deal for Fire teams. With this, it acts as a check to one of the biggest threats to Fire teams; Slowbro. That is something Mega Charizard X can not beat (Slowbro has access to Thunder Wave). I personally don't think Mega Charizard Y is better than Mega Charizard X or vice versa. Both are incredible assets to Fire teams and serve different roles.
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2016
  11. Wanka

    Wanka a suh
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2014
    Messages:
    847
    I will adress a lot of this stuff when I get home from school today. There will obv be potential mistakes as this is the most raw VR in a while so there's defo stuff to work on. I'm going to be a lot less tolerable with retarded one line noms so make sure you aren't one of those. Most have been very good so keep it up guys and thanks for the responses.
  12. Declarity

    Declarity

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2013
    Messages:
    97
    I apologize for posting again so soon, but I have a few more I wanted to point out.


    [​IMG]
    Salazzle (Poison) D => B
    Zarif made solid comments about how well Salazzle did on Fire teams, but I think it shines even more on Poison. It has a fantastic 117 Speed, allowing it to outspeed things like Mega Metagross (HUGE threat to Poison), Non-Scarf Kartana, and all of the 110, 108, and 115 Speed mons. It also has a respectable 111 Special Attack, being able to 2HKO many unresisted targets due to Life Orb + its very strong STAB combo in Sludge Wave and Fire Blast. Salazzle can deal with Steel very well, and its offensive typing offers great STAB coverage in general, something Mono Poison really wants (Nidoking/queen was just about everything it had, previously). Here is a set I have been testing out for it:

    Steel Killer Salazzle (open)

    Salazzle (F) @ Life Orb
    Ability: Corrosion
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Sludge Wave
    - Fire Blast
    - Hidden Power [Ground]
    - Nasty Plot



    [​IMG]
    Diancie (Fairy) A => ?
    Not a suggestion, but more like asking for an explanation. Why is regular Diancie even ranked, let alone A? There has to be something I'm missing here.


    [​IMG]
    Avalugg (Ice) A => S
    Avalugg is still a near-mandatory option on most Ice teams. The qualities it posseses are nearly too good to pass up on Ice. It is hilariously bulky, something that not many Ice types can say, boasting 95/184 physical defenses. It offers very reliable Rapid Spin support, something Ice really needs. Building a viable Ice team that lacks Avalugg is very difficult this gen. Snowslash is nowhere near as reliable as Avalugg is at this role, added with the fact that Avalugg has monstrous physical bulk (again, something Ice really appreciates), good, powerful, reliable STAB and coverage, reliable recovery, and a very high Attack stat for a wall, Avalugg, in my opinion, falls under the S rank since it still defines the Ice metagame greatly.

    [​IMG]
    Nihilego (Poison) S => A

    Nihilego is a great option on Poison teams, but I do not think it posseses any traits that make ir worthy of an S rank. I remember last gen, for some time we marked some Pokemon that were generally great, but didn't really add too much to the type it was used on, with an asterisk. I believe Nihilego on Poison is one of those Pokemon. It's a great special attacker that can sweep without much support, but the Rock/Poison typing alone only hurts Poison, offensively and defensively, further worsening your Steel, Ground, and Psychic matchups. Again, its ability as a standalone mon is very good, and should definitely be looked at for people building Mono Poison teams, but it should not be a Pokemon that defines Mono Poison. These qualities make me think it should be given an A rank.

    [​IMG]
    Raichu-Alola (Electric) A => S
    Alolan Raichu has been a staple on nearly all Electric monos ever since the gen began. Being ridiculously powerful and speedy in Electric Terrain, Alolan Raichu is THE best partner for Tapu Koko. To give you an idea of its sheer power, LO Alolan Raichu's Thunderbolt hits noticeably harder than Choice Banded EQ from Excadrill, in their respective terrains/weathers. The Psychic typing also gives Raichu a very big amount of positive matchups, practically sweeping Fighting and Poison. In Electric Terrain, Modest Raichu outspeeds any and every relevant Pokemon in the game, scarf or not. It's hard NOT to put Alolan Raichu on a team when Tapu Koko is already so widely used and considered a mandatory option for Mono Electric teams. For these reasons, I can conclude that Raichu-Alola defines Mono Electric along with Tapu Koko, so I believe it should be given an S rank.
  13. Sour Apples

    Sour Apples

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2015
    Messages:
    92
    Deoxys-Speed(Psychic) Unranked => A
    Deoxys-S is such a good lead mon, getting moves such as taunt, rocks, and spikes. Its insane speed also lets it outspeed many fast pokemon, such as scarf victini, hoopa, etc. It can knock off those pokemon so you wouldnt have to deal with them being scarved. Deo-S is also the best hazard stacker on psychic, because it gets both rocks and spikes, unlike mew. Other options for Deo-S include an offensive LO set with things such as ice beam, psycho boost, superpower, etc, or a screens set with light clay. It's such a versatile mon, and it definitely deserves at least an A rank.
  14. RadiantLuna

    RadiantLuna

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2016
    Messages:
    6
    One of two Stealth Rock setters on Fairy (well three if you count Carbink, who's totally outclassed by Diancie). Not the best typing, but helps counter Fire types and offers a secondary STAB compared to Clefable which makes it a decent alternative.
    Declarity and Dece1t like this.
  15. its.huey

    its.huey

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2014
    Messages:
    54
    been playing around with Buzzwole on Bug, and I just haven't been able to find any reason why I would use it over Heracross.
    While you do have better HP and Phys bulk to viably run a Bulk Up, Leech Life set, Hera's speed, more powerful stabs, pretty equal coverage and flexibility with Moxie and Guts is just all around better in my opinion. Yes, Buzzwole gets Poison Jab, but again, I'm not sure that really is enough to put it at A rank. The biggest kicker IMO is Buzzwole's 79 base Speed which really hurts against notable Psychic types amongst others. I nominate Buzzwole (Bug) A => B rank.

    Also putting up for discussion for M-Scizor going to S rank because it's bulk is such a godsend against Magearna, Megagross, Kartana. I also think the current meta is not great for M-Pinsir with Steel and Electric being so strong, but I need to test it out more.

    On a side note, how do you get gen 7 animated sprites? Help out a noob.
    Dece1t likes this.
  16. terrors

    terrors Pirate King
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2015
    Messages:
    769
    TheAce22 likes this.
  17. juleocesar

    juleocesar

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2013
    Messages:
    208
    I disagree with this one. While it is true it helps on Fire matchups, the introduction of Volcanion makes this set way more unreliable as it already was, as Fire teams now have a really good switchin for it which is still capable to put work on Grass. Furthermore, you say it is ''a very solid check'', but that is very untrue considering it has a really hard time setting Rain Dance up in first place due to a large number of Fire pokemon that are capable of outspeeding Ludicolo and KOing it before it does anything. Also, Fire teams are capable of constantly dispelling Rain Dance out (especially with ZardY, which is faster than Ludicolo and can OHKO it under Sun it sets), forcing Ludicolo to spend another turn or even sack a Pokemon just to remain alive and try to find a really hard opportunity to setup (which again, its really difficult for it). And lastly, Ludicolo doesn't add much to any other matchup that Grass already have a good time handling (other than the mentioned Fire of course), and therefore is really niche-restricted Pokemon in the sense it is totally dependant on Rain support to work effectively. And of course it is worth mentioning that Rain Dance isn't even that great of a benefit for Grass teams at all, since it halves Synthesis heal for Mega-Venusaur, and that can sometimes be a nuisance when you need to use that as a switchin, which just doesn't make up for the Fire resistance when Pokemon like Cradily and Mega-Venusaur can have your back without wasting that much of momentum or wasting a free Pokemon slot.

    That being said, I would rank Ludicolo in D at best (or maybe even keep it unranked) due to its limitations at its role and being weather dependant to do a job which can be better perfomed by one of its teammates without so much opportunity cost.
  18. Wanka

    Wanka a suh
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2014
    Messages:
    847
    Ghost
    Chandelure Unranked--->B -
    Still a good mon to use on ghost teams due to its revenge killing capabilities and coverage with a choice scarf, but it does face some competition as a fire ghost with marowak who also has benefits for ghost teams as well. Its fire immunity doesn't mean anything as jelli handles fire moves just fine.
    Grass
    Dhelmise A--->B
    - see juleo
    Decidueye A--->B - see juleo
    Ludicolo Unranked--->D - I'd go as far as to see ludi is useable and deserves a rank, but thats about it. Very small niche
    Exeggutor-Alola D--->C - see juleo
    Fighting
    Infernape S--->A -
    I pretty much agree with everything that megazard said
    Buzzwole A--->B - likewise
    Toxicroak C--->B - likewise
    Normal
    Drampa Unranked--->C -
    Not an optimal mon to use due to its bad defensive typing and horrendus speed, but beserk is a nice ability that lets it act as a special nuke and it has a very high spA stat as it is. Defo is outclassed by something like meloetta still.
    Fire
    Talonflame D--->B
    - see zarif
    Salazzle D--->C - I've used sala a shit ton myself and NP has been doing ok for me but its lack of coverage is still so dissapointing and makes it dead weight some games. Its speed tier is the reason why it has any viability. I could see this mon rising in the future but I think C is reasonable for now.
    Marowak-Alola B--->C - Agree with everything that zarif said except that I think lightning rod as an ability can be really handy at times to take advantage of certain elec mons and to prevent flying teams from pivoting in ur face constantly. Have also used maro a lot and agree that is underwhelming but rod has been pretty nice to have in certain matchups so I think C is fine.
    Fairy
    Tapu Koko A--->S -
    self explanatory
    Tapu Bulu B--->A - ^
    Psychic
    Deoxys-Speed Unranked--->B -
    Still producing good results as a versatile lead for offensive psyschic builds.
    Deoxys-Defense Unranked--->C - used deo d while lele was around and was really annoying for my opponents to face in some matchups but was dead weight in others. Somewhat of a more risky mon to waste a slot on but can have it's moments for sure.
    Medicham Unranked--->D - still strong, but its reg form has a shittier speed tier and there are better options to use for more utility on psy teams which rn. Very situational mon.
    Poison
    Salazzle D--->B -
    Defo better on poison due to the increase in defensive support it gets. This lets np sets be more effective as you can play more aggressively with it due to the support in the back.
    Bug
    Buzzwole A--->B -
    Thought it would be better but boosting sets are ok but aren't really anything special and heracross outclasses it as a scarfer.
    Ice
    Avalugg A--->S - still need spin no matter what fam

    Dragon
    Turtonator Unraked--->D - usable. The only battles I've seen with it are people trying to utilize that fire trap thing. It only works against people who don't know wtf it does. Another dragon mon being weak to Sr is not something you should want on ur team and it's speed makes its very hard to function.

    Had to finish the post from mobile so that's why the end is bold lmao. Can't figure out how to highlight shit with a damn samsung.
  19. Zarif

    Zarif Champions yet again
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2014
    Messages:
    360
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG] Ash-Greninja (Dark) A -> S [​IMG]

    Greninja's unique ability Battle Bond allows it to change into Ash-Greninja after getting a KO. This is a huge leap in offensive stats for it. Its Attack, Speed, and Special Attack combined together get a 110 BST boost. I've talked to one of the best Dark users and experienced battler Wyn about this and he agrees that Ash-Greninja deserves S rank on Dark. Choice Specs is the more popular set currently in the metagame. With the Choice Specs boost, Greninja has little trouble turning into its Ash-Greninja forme. Its stats aren't the only thing that get a boost, Greninja's signature move Water Shuriken becomes 20 BP and hits 3 times. This allows Ash-Greninja to use a priority move with 60 BP. The only thing that Ash-Greninja misses out on is Protean, which is a heavy blow. But the increase to its stats definitely make up for it. This makes Ash-Greninja one of the best wallbreakers and late-game cleaners on Dark.

    Set (open)
    Greninja (M) @ Choice Specs
    Ability: Battle Bond
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Dark Pulse
    - Water Shuriken
    - Ice Beam
    - Hydro Pump

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]Weavile (Dark) A -> B[​IMG]

    Weavile's main claim to fame on Dark teams was its fantastic Speed and access to Ice moves. But with the unbanning of Greninja and Ash-Greninja, there really is no reason to use Weavile. Greninja too has access to Ice-type moves and has can run a lot more coverage moves to help deal with different types. Unlike Weavile, Greninja isn't deadweight in a lot matchups either. On the other hand, Ash-Greninja is faster and stronger than Weavile and has access to a more powerful priority move. With all of this in mind, Weavile definitely needs to drop to B rank on Dark.​
    Tyke, SubMindRaikou, Waszap and 4 others like this.
  20. TheAce22

    TheAce22

    Joined:
    May 17, 2015
    Messages:
    362
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG] Celesteela (Steel) A => S [​IMG]

    Celesteela is an amazing wall with evenly distributed bulk throughout all of it's stats. While it doesn't have roost it has an amazing move in leech seed which allows it to widdle down anything while getting pretty good recovery at the same time, especially with protect. While leech seed doesn't hit grass types such as Kartana, Celesteela also has a great attacking move pool with moves such as Flamethrower to take out Kartana, Heavy Slam which has a nice damage output due to it being the heaviest Pokemon other than Primal Groudon,(I think? Correct me if I'm wrong.) and Earthquake to hit fire types and potentially Magnezone. It even has Beast Boost to help out whichever defense you choose if it gets a kill which makes it even more of a nuisance to deal with. Overall Celesteela is an amazing tank with a great move pool and while they aren't the same I definitely feel if Skarmory is S rank, then this monster should be as well.
    Tyke, The Excadrill, terrors and 9 others like this.
  21. Dece1t

    Dece1t formerly Stunfisk The Great

    Joined:
    May 11, 2014
    Messages:
    980
    I've been meaning to put in my 2 cents the past few days, and now I've finally gotten the chance to since its finally the weekend. Overall I felt the ranking team did a great job initializing the VR, however there were a handful of things I felt like could be reconsidered. With that being said, I ran down the list of types and the letter rankings, and jotted down the ones I disagreed with, and why. By no means will everything I say be right and/or agreeable, this is just my personal opinion, and I'm really excited to spark some discussion again once the metagame begins to settle down! :)

    VR Edits (open)

    Water
    [​IMG] Ash Greninja A->S: I agree with Zarif on this one, despite no protean, it gets a pretty significant buff in its stats, once it manages to get a knock out in a game, and its a pretty sufficient mixed attacker with strong multi-hitting priority. It's also able to run a variety of coverage allowing it to adapt to certain threats that a team may need to be able to cover.

    [​IMG] Empoleon A->B: I feel with the introduction of Tapu Fini, Empoleon's role as a Defogger is now outclassed. Tapu Fini has a much better movepool (especially in utility outside of Defog), bulk, and speed to allow it to more easily creep Breloom. Outside of access to SR, Tapu Fini can do what Empoleon can do, if not better, and there are better SR setters around as well (i.e. Swampert and Seismitoad). The only benefit you really get out of it is the fact it has access to both, but outside of that its very medicore.

    [​IMG] Mega Gyarados B->A: I'm really confused as to why it was dropped. Access to intimidate is awesome for a Balanced type like Water, and its a dangerous late game sweeper with access to Dragon Dance, and can run a variety of spreads to either increase bulk drastically or make a dangerous offensive spread. I agree that I feel Sharpedo is superior so far this generation, I would not rule Mega Gyarados out as outclassed.

    [​IMG] Araquanid B->D: I really don't see the point of using this on a Water team, it doesn't bring any additional buffs that Golisopod can give.

    Normal
    [​IMG] Dodrio C->B: With Mega Pidgeot unreleased as of right now, I feel this guy really does have a glimpse of hope on normal teams. It is true that Staraptor is usually considered better due to better defensive capabilities, but the one thing Dodrio has over it is the speed tier it achieves without the need of a Choice Scarf. 110 base speed is enough to outspeed the Swords of Justice, and any non scarfed Pokemon on Fighting, not to mention it also has access to SD, Taunt, Knock Off, and 100 base Fighting coverage. All around it is decent, and I'd say its a good candidate for B rank.

    Fire
    I agree with everything there.

    Electric
    [​IMG] Rotom-Mow Unranked->D: Rotom-Wash is definitely far superior for sure here, however Rotom-Mow does have the nice niche of being able to hit Water Absorbers on Ground with a super-effective Leaf Storm, while hitting any other switchin neutrally.

    [​IMG] Galvantula D->C: StarBlim and I were playing around with this at the beginning of the generation, the presence of Sticky Webs does amplify the threat level of Alolan Golem and Xurkitree (2 of Electric's best wallbreakers atm), and makes the archetype of HO Electric very viable. Other than that, it has the niche of a nice Speed tier without the need of Electric Terrain or Scarf, and it has Bug STAB that can super-effectively hit Psychic types (which right now are very prevalent, hence why I mentioned that fact).

    Fighting
    I agree with everything here.

    Steel
    [​IMG] While I agree with everything, I wanna address TheAce22's nomination for Celesteela A->S. This I personally have concern about, primarily due to the fact that Ferrothorn can do the exact same thing it can do, minus the Fire and Flying coverage. Skarmory I feel is very superior to it as well, due to the much better base defense to start, as well as access to instant recovery, SR, and Brave Bird (which hits much harder than an Air Slash). With that said, that is why I feel A rank is much better suited for it.

    Ghost
    [​IMG] Golurk A->B: Now that Alolan Marowak has been introduced, I feel that Golurk can now be considered outclassed. Alolan Marowak is much more powerful thanks to Thick Club, and it also can provide Electric immunity thanks to Lightning Rod. It also has access to strong Fire STAB, with the option to run Rock Head for an insanely strong recoiless Flare Blitz (while I do agree Lightning Rod is considered better with the strong presence Electric has on the metagame right now, Rock Head really is no joke, and it makes Alolan Marowak stupidly powerful. I've played around with this myself, and it even has the ability to 2KO some of the toughest defensive walls, including p2, Hippowdon, and Landorus-T, the ladder which on switch-in).

    [​IMG] Froslass B->C: It is true that its the only Ghost type with access to Spikes, and its a decent suicide lead, otherwise there's really nothing going for it, It's very hard to fit on a team due to the fact that it is a 1-trick pony, and otherwise is useless other than Twave/Destiny Bond. It's very underwhelming imo, and does not deserve B rank. (edit: Since Prankster no longer works on Dark types, Froslass can at least be an alternative to get fast burns as opposed to having to Mega Sableye early on in order to burn something)

    Ground
    [​IMG] Landorus-T A->B: With Landorus-I being the only viable special wallbreaker outside of Nidoking/the Water Absorbers (which aren't remotely wallbreakers, either of them), the opportunity cost to use Landorus-T has increased drastically. So 8 times out of 10, there's little to no reason to use this on a successful team unfortunately.

    [​IMG] Dugtrio A->B: This is probably the most controversial nomination I'm gonna make, but I feel like it really should be addressed. Ground is a very offensive type as it is right now, and despite Memento being useful for both Zygarde and Excadrill, in terms of coverage it provides very little to what's provided by other Pokemon, and it often has to resort to running only Earthquake and Stone Edge (and sometimes Reversal), which is pretty redundant considering on average 4/6 other Pokemon on the team will run that same coverage. Even in terms of trapping, I still find it to be underwhelming and overhyped when testing it out. That does not mean I'm saying its bad, it just means I think its role is limited outside of checking Kartana or forcing Memnto onto someone. There are much better Pokemon you can run to improve your chances against certain matchups, as opposed to only improving the chances of matchups Ground is already good in (such as Steel, Flying, Fire, Rock, Poison, ect). Again, I want to remind you that I do not think it is bad by any means, but I don't feel it is to par with the other A ranked Pokemon, hence why I'm nominating it for B rank instead, where I feel it is on par with Pokemon that can "adapt to the metagame."

    [​IMG] Palossand C->D: I really don't see the point in running this unfortunately, outside of maybe Destiny Bond, but even that's pushing it. Diggersby and Krookodile are much much better than it, and I don't really see the need for it to be a C ranked pokemon by any means.

    [​IMG] Flygon D->C: Flygon, despite Zygarde with Thousand Arrows being a thing, is not a bad Pokemon. Access to Dragon Dance as well as really good special coverage makes it a pretty decent Pokemon. It also has access to U-Turn, making it a pretty decent pivot.

    [​IMG] Torterra D->C: This is another Pokemon that I feel has been underranked. With Water being as popular as it is right now, I feel that is only a much bigger reason to consider running this, as its able to check up to (and not including) Starmie with a Choice Scarf. It can also run Rock Polish for a much bigger speed boost to check an even bigger array of Pokemon, including non-scarfed Greninja. Aside from its offensive attributes, it can also be a pretty decent defensive wall/lead, with access to Leech Seed and decent recovery in Synthesis (although this would be used more so on non Sand Ground teams inf anything).

    Ice
    [​IMG] Beartic A->B: Slush Rush and the attack buff makes it much more viable this gen, however I feel it isn't quite up to par with Alolan Sandslash. First off its slower, and you need +Speed to speed tie with Scarf Xurkitree, but with that it gets a considerable power drop. It's pure Ice typing does not give it any huge benefits either, as at least with Sandslash (who is actually faster even with a neutral nature), you're neutral to Steel type attacks, and you can hit Rock super-effectively. As a Hail abuser, it's outclassed a tad.

    [​IMG] Weavile S->A: Weavile is extremely fast, however outside of helping in the Psychic type matchup, its nothing game influencing by any means.

    [​IMG] Alolan Ninetales A->S: This is a Pokemon I've been hyped for since it got introduced. With base 109 speed tier just barely outspeeding every non-scarfed Fighting type Pokemon, Alolan Ninetales is a god-sent Pokemon. The fact that it has access to Snow Warning, which can help support Alolan Sandslash and Beartic, as well as allow it to set up Aurora Veil, it's an amazing asset to use on Ice. It can also run a variety of sets, with Choice Scarf being able to outspeed Scarf Terrakion, Choice Specs/LO allowing it to be a pretty good late game sweeper, boosting its unfortunately mediocre Special Attack, and as I mentioned it has access to Aurora Veil, which can halve the damage done to itself and its team mates for a maximum of 8 turns. It can also run other nifty ultility moves such as Encore and Disable, and it also has access to Freeze Dry to take out bulky Water types. Overall, I feel this Pokemon is very deserving of being an influential part of Ice teams, and there's very little reason why it shouldn't, especially with the introduction of Slush Rush.

    Grass
    I agree with everything here.

    Rock
    I agree with everything here.

    Fairy
    [​IMG] Tapu Fini A->B: I don't see much of a point of running this over Azumarill. The only reason I would run it would be to prevent status, however its good to know Tapu Koko and Tapu Bulu are very popular to run as well, which would otherwise minimise the effectiveness of Misty Surge. As a Water Fairy type, its definitely outclassed.

    Dark
    [​IMG] Weavile A->B: Someone mentioned this, I forget who, but the fact that Greninja is around for strong Ice coverage, Weavile is cut short there because of that.

    [​IMG] Alolan Muk A->B: While it does help against Fairy, and its ability Poison Touch can be nifty, I don't think this is a Pokemon that is up to par with Bisharp. Bisharp has the additional niche of being able to threaten Defoggers, and make them less likely to remove hazards due to Defiant. Muk on the other hand can maybe run a Curse or AV set, but really other than that as a Fairy check I do believe its outclassed.

    [​IMG] Guzzlord B->C/D: It's HP is huge, but there is absolutely no reason to run this over Hydreigon, which gets the same coverage attacks, and can do what it can a billion times better. It's typing also doesn't help with the bulk it was given, and it really is only hindered from there on.

    [​IMG] Crawdaunt B->C: With Greninja and Mega Sharpedo dominating on Dark atm, Crawdaunt also finds itself outclassed as of right now. It's unfortunately much slower than the ladder 2, and it is fairly hard to find space to run this Pokemon on a team at this point in time.

    [​IMG] Alolan Persian D->C: terrors mentioned this, but its a pretty nice utility Pokemon, especially with access to Parting Shot. 115 base Speed and Fur Coat also allows it to be a fast bulky pivot that can pave the way for sweepers on the team. While not game breaking by any means, it's still very nifty and its a nice role to have.

    Flying
    [​IMG] Talonflame D->B: The Gale Wings buff does hurt it, however, the speed tier it reaches, along with access to Will-o-Wisp still makes it a pretty decent Pokemon. Special Defensive sets are still very good as I've noticed, and it can pretty easily set up on something once they're burnt, with either Bulk Up to increase overall bulk, or Swords Dance to cut to the chase and begin sweeping. It's also not super hard, with that being said, to keep its HP full so it can use priority attacks, the only real reason it wouldn't be A ranked is due to its 4x SR weakness. I was playing against StarBlim with a team that used Talonflame, and I can assure you based on that it is by no means a D rannked Pokemon, and it's especially great on Semi-stall or Balanced teams.

    Dragon
    [​IMG] Zygarde S->A: This is probably another controversial one, however the fact that Kyurem can basically complete the same goal, if not better than Zygarde, on top of Garchomp being the most common lead to run, at times it can almost seem redundant. Again, that is not to say it is bad, but in terms of team support and what exactly it is accomplishing (hitting Pokemon with STAB attacks that are immune to Ground), it's much better worthwhile on Ground teams as opposed to Dragon. I really don't feel it is a gamebreaking as people are making it out to be as I've mentioned before, in fact I do feel its another Pokemon that's been overhyped. Is it a Pokemon that can influence a Dragon Team's matchup, sure, but is it defining what Dragon is as a type/are you almost required to run it, no way. Even as a DDancer, I feel Dragonite does edge it out slightly due to Multiscale.

    [​IMG] Guzzlord B->C/D: Exactly the same situation as Dark, so I won't reiterate myself there.

    Bug
    I agree with everything here.

    Psychic
    [​IMG] Mew S->A: This is a case where I feel this Pokemon is not quite as good as it was last gen (similar to Keldeo). It is worth mentioning it is a pretty good SR setter, but the presence of Jirachi does hinder it a bit, and Latios right now is a common defogger, as Offense I've noticed to be the much stringer archetype to use right now. Outside of guaranteeing burns with WoW, and Defog/SR on the same Pokemon, it is not something that defines Psychic teams anymore I feel.

    Poison
    [​IMG] Scolipede A->S: This is a drop that I personally don't agree with. Because of how prevalent Psychic is right now, and with Gengar's nerf, this I feel only increases Scolipede's viability as a physical sweeper/wallbreaker. After SR and Mega Metagross being worn down a small amount, Scolipede is able to completely solo Psychic teams entirely, and in other matchups act as an extremely reliable late game cleaner. The fact that Poison is limited on strong physical attackers as well only gives it more the reason to be considered a Pokemon that defines Poison teams.

    [​IMG] Skuntank B->A: The introduction of Alolan Muk I don't believe affects Skunk's viability very much. The fact that Alolan Raichu can now completely sweep Poison under Electric Terrain is a huge problem, Skuntank is one of the best checks to it--its immunity to Psychic attacks, and access to Sucker Punch/Pursuit (making it either KO it if it stays in, or punish it if it tries to switch out). Not to mention, it also has access to Defog, which is also pretty helpful so you aren't necessarily forced to run Crobat for hazard control (considering you probably won't run Tentacruel due to Toxapex being a huge thing right now).

    I'll be more happy to further explain any of the noms I've made here, but, I just want to clarify again this is my personal opinion, and I may very well not be right on some of these. However, I do feel a lot of these changes can really increase the accuracy of our current viability rankings, and for each one of these I did an extensive amount of research (this post took me a good 2 and a half hours to type up, so it wasn't like I put random things together and called it a day). Thank you to anyone who took the time to read this.

    edit: Added Alolan Persian, and removed Mega Heracross (I apologize, that was my fault for not paying attention, thanks for the heads up Vid). Also mentioned the fact that Froslass can be an alternative to a fast WoW user due to the Prankster nerf (Prankster no longer works on Dark types).
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2016
  22. Vid

    Vid Fear the Deer
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2014
    Messages:
    550
    Not to be mean or anything, but Mega Heracross is unreleased please check what is released and what isn't before posting.
    Wish9, 6ti and Dece1t like this.
  23. ScenesLord1

    ScenesLord1

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2016
    Messages:
    16
    I mean, celesteela is so much better than skarm on steel. Keep it A rank if you want because it means i can keep abusing it without people realising how broken it is :)

    scp edit: discuss the 'mons and their viability, not each other
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 17, 2016
    Shadestep, Wyn and TheAce22 like this.
  24. RadiantLuna

    RadiantLuna

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2016
    Messages:
    6
    I agree with most of what Dece1t said except:

    Tapu Fini is one of the only Defoggers on Fairy- Togekiss is weak to Rocks and can't handle Steel attacks like Fini can. Running 2 Water/Fairys if you want Azumarill doesn't seem that limiting (Togekiss/Azumarill is a double Electric weakness anyway).

    I don't think Bisharp really outclasses Muk as a Fairy check, with Bisharp's poor special bulk it gets 2HKOd by pretty much any special Fairy attack anyway. 105/100 compared to 65/70 is just a really big difference that allows Muk to run AV and actually tank Fairy (or special Bug/Fighting/lots of things) hits.
    Tyke, The Excadrill, Wyn and 6 others like this.
  25. Wanka

    Wanka a suh
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2014
    Messages:
    847
    Ill adress some of these.

    Tapu fini A->B (water) - lets also please not compare this mon to azumarill. Just because they have the dame typing DOES NOT mean you should compare them. (fini is better than bulky azu sets anyways to don't pull that card either) Other than that, fini and azu serve completely different functions for water teams. Fini is a fantastic bulky defogger with loads of utility and can also be a deadly CM sweeper as well. It's a very versatile mon for water teams and provides loads of utility, which makes A rank very fitting. It stays.

    Alolan Muk A->B (dark) - I don't think there was any issue about its rank on poison, but I think it's an exceptional mon on dark teams. I talked with some ppl who like the type in general and how it performs and adding that with my experiences with it, I think it's worthy of its rank as is. Fairy is a predominently specially based type with respects to fairy STAB and muk's ability to sponge special hits with ease. It's trapping capabilities are more than valuable as well.

    Skuntank B->A (poison) - muk is bulkier and stronger which lets it function better as a trapper and psychic immunity. Cool, it gets defog, poison types are in need of a reliable ground immunity anyways so using crobat isn't a bad thing and shouldn't be used to make skuntank sound better.

    Landorus T A->B (ground) - I think I saw "there's literally no reason to use this on a succesful team." That couldn't be more further from the truth. Lando I doesn't have to be on every good ground team and Lando T got even better this gen. It's double dance set is way more threatening than is was in gen 6, and the utility its bulky sets provide is off the charts. Adding a different dimension to ground teams doesn't mean that it can't be as good and if not better in some scenarios.

    Scolipede A->S (poison) - It's still a really good mon to have on poison teams, as scoli paired with a trapper makes the psy matchup a lot more managable and if not in poisons favor. That being said, With the introduction of pex, it's a lot harder for scoli to find its way onto teams. A little chip on metagross is an understatement as you need close to 50% of it's hp gone to even make it a roll. Not to mention that you'd need to keep scoli healthy as well and out of range of a potential BP. Saying it can "solo psy teams completely" is a really naive thing to say.

    Dugtrio A->B - No lol. Duggy is way better than the current B rank mons. It sits well with the rest of the A rank mons.

    Myself and vid are working on another batch of big noms including the ones I explained so those should be out soon.
    Izaya, futuron, 6ti and 2 others like this.

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  1. double switches