Resource Monotype SM Viability Rankings

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Ok, so I have had another look at the rankings and there's something that bothers me...

Where is Mandibuzz on flying?
Honestly at a lost with this. Manibuzz is unranked on flying, something that to me feels wrong. Mandibuzz is an A rank for dark, mainly for the same reason as i'm pushing for Mandi to be ranked for flying. It's bulk is amazing, and can be run both ways. It has great utility in defog, toxic, taunt and whirlwind, making it a hard time for sweepers to face it. Couple this with it's ability to negate hail and sandstorm, harming rock ground and ice teams effectively, as well as having set up in nasty plot, means that Mandi is better than unranked. I am aware there are mons such as celesteela, mantine, zapdos and skarmory that are all bulky mons, but at the least Mandibuzz Unranked=>C
Flying has stuff like Zapdos/Mantine/Skarmory that perform what Mandibuzz would do better. Mandibuzz is better on Dark because it’s the types only viable defogger iirc. Flying on the other hand just has better options for the role Mandi would do.
 
Ok, so I have had another look at the rankings and there's something that bothers me...

Where is Mandibuzz on flying?
Honestly at a lost with this. Manibuzz is unranked on flying, something that to me feels wrong. Mandibuzz is an A rank for dark, mainly for the same reason as i'm pushing for Mandi to be ranked for flying. It's bulk is amazing, and can be run both ways. It has great utility in defog, toxic, taunt and whirlwind, making it a hard time for sweepers to face it. Couple this with it's ability to negate hail and sandstorm, harming rock ground and ice teams effectively, as well as having set up in nasty plot, means that Mandi is better than unranked. I am aware there are mons such as celesteela, mantine, zapdos and skarmory that are all bulky mons, but at the least Mandibuzz Unranked=>C
Apart from the excellent points made by Mr. Miner, I'd add the following:

- Nasty plot Mandibuzz is garbage, esp on a type like Flying (dat base 55 SpA stat)
- Mandibuzz not taking damage from hail/sand does not "harm" anything effectively
- The existence of Skarm/Zapdos/Celesteela/Mantine/Togekiss doesn't just warrant a lower rank for Mandibuzz on Flying, but also more or less answers the question of why you would never realistically want to include a Mandibuzz on your Flying team.
- It is an A rank on Dark for providing general utility not otherwise seen on the type (as a bulky Bug/Fighting/Ground/Grass attack switch-in), whereas the only thing it offers on Flying are a Dark and Ghost resist (done better by Togekiss / Staraptor, respectively) and Psychic immunity (Skarm/Celesteela is usually enough to deter Psychic attacks, which are a poor offensive type anyway).
 
Mandiubuzz on flying does have STAB foul play and a considerable faster taunt than skarmory. These two alone make it play somewhat different from skarmory. (eg if skarm is burned then they can send out their wall and SR over and over in a loop while you defog, foul play being less 50/50 than whirlwind against certain setup mons such as taunt+dd and unscouted DD that might be 3 attack mixed, killing standard celesteela in vs steel or vs flying mirror match etc) Its still sub-optimal, but easily better than the current D rank. Granted everything below B is only seeing use on CCFl teams. In the strict sense, the degree of performance it offers isn't far enough below skarmory for it to be completely unusuable as a defensive mon. It is lower, but still viable enough for top of D or bottom of C as an option. Compared to the other C/D ranks who are worse than their A/B counterparts in general areas but have at least 1 or 2 matchups where they have unique advantages- it is only seemingly worse than them because of wholesale overlap of team role rather than their better at X, worse at ABC.
 
Mega Tyranitar (Dark) B -> A

Mega Tyranitar has recently cemented itself as one of, if not THE best offensive Mega for Dark. The Dragon Dance set is so good right now. It can set up all over mons like Klefki on Fairy since it is immune to its Thunder Wave and after a boost or two can straight up beat the type if the player does not keep Reflect up. Mega Tyranitar also gets fantastic coverage like stonequake, Fire Punch, Ice Punch, etc. Mega Tyranitar also helps the Flying matchup greatly, pressuring switch-ins like Skarmory and Landorus-Therian with Fire Punch and Ice Punch respectively. In the sand, its bulk is out of this world and it can survive an insane amount of hits, including Choice Scarf Tapu Bulu's Horn Leech and Scarf Gengar's Focus Blast. This gives it a lot of opportunities to set up and win in these matchups. Mega Tyranitar pressures a large amount of types, most notably Fairy, Flying, Dragon, and Fire. Not just this, Mega Tyranitar has solid team support options in Mandibuzz and Greninja that allow it to deal with its weaknesses. The way I personally see it, Mega Tyranitar is not as good as Mega Sableye, but is definitely better than Mega Sharpedo and for that, I believe it should be A ranked on Dark.
Attacking
+1 252 Atk Tyranitar-Mega Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 166-196 (49.8 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252 Atk Tyranitar-Mega Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Bulu: 260-306 (92.5 - 108.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252 Atk Tyranitar-Mega Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 351-414 (102.6 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Tyranitar-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Landorus-Therian: 308-364 (80.6 - 95.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Defending
252 Atk Tapu Bulu Horn Leech vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar-Mega in Grassy Terrain: 260-308 (76.2 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 114-134 (33.4 - 39.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 254-300 (74.4 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar-Mega in Sand: 300-356 (87.9 - 104.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Magnet Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar-Mega: 123-145 (36 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Diancie-Mega Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar-Mega in Sand: 206-246 (60.4 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Toxicroak (Fighting) C -> B

I think I'm going to have to elaborate quite a bit on this one and why I am nominating this, so bear with me. Toxicroak has a big amount of factors that make it significantly better than the other C Ranked mons (Those being Conkeldurr and Kommo-o). Its Poison typing works extremely well for Fighting allowing it to check Pokemon such as Tapu Bulu and Clefable. In addition to this, Toxicroak is able to remove Toxic Spikes that are very problematic for Fighting, and discourages pokemon like Keldeo and Terrakion from setting up. Toxicroak itself can set up with Swords Dance and priority Sucker Punch, which is a positive in the Psychic matchup. Another quality about Toxicroak is the ability to counter vincune and many other Water types and setting up on them thanks to Dry Skin. Toxicroak can also beat Mega Venusaur 1v1 unless it is carrying Earthquake, making it a positive in the Poison matchup thanks to this plus its ability to remove Toxic Spikes. Lastly, Toxicroak is crucial in the Electric matchup. It is the only Pokemon that can check Alolan Raichu on Electric outside of Focus Sash users, as Sucker Punch will OHKO it every time. So from all of this, it can be gathered that Toxicroak is useful in the Electric, Poison, Fairy, Psychic, Water, Grass, Fighting matchups, which makes it deserving of B-rank in my opinion.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 285-335 (78.2 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raichu-Alola: 299-354 (114.5 - 135.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 208-247 (69.1 - 82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Suicune: 391-461 (96.7 - 114.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 390-460 (98.9 - 116.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 157-187 (47.1 - 56.1%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO
 

Jord-e

formerly ThiccTornadus
(normal) -> UR

I think i have tried everything to make this mon work but it's honestly fucking terrible. If u were to run this mon u have to give up Mega Lopunny which is honestly a terrible trade as Mega Audino improves no match up at all and it doesnt have a good offensive presence even at +3 with an offensive calm mind set and defensively it is outclassed by chansey and p2. It only leaves u with a worse match up against Poison and Steel which normal alrdy has a fair amount of trouble with when running Mega Lopunny.

(poison) -> D

I find it ridiculous that Drapion is ranked this high... Yeah, it gets Knock Off. Alolan-Muk Do i need to say anything else lol? Its simply terrible even the scarf set doesnt have anything good going for it that other mons dont do better.

(psychic) -> S

Deoxys-S is simply too good to forego in the current meta, with all the psychic HO teams and its great speed it is almost guaranteed to get up Rocks and atleast 1 screen of sorts, did i mention it could taunt opposing leads to prevent hazards going up?

(psychic) -> S

Alakazam is one of the best offense checks for Psychic rn it basically guarantees a free kill with its Sash counter set, besides Gallade which is also a good offense killer but comes with the cost of a mega slot and does not always guarantee a kill.

(water) -> S

Suicune basically wins vs any of water's "worse" matchups by being able to PP stall its foe, also wracks up damage when paired with toxic spikes from toxapex, it also has respectable offenses when it starts setting up calm minds and its bulk is just amazing.

(steel) -> D/C

This is currently the only mon Steel has access to that can outspeed both Volcarona and Zard X at +1 (with choice scarf), this should be big enough of a niche for it especially considering how weak steel is to both.
 
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Yeah so I disagree with most of these. Simply telling us what these mons do isn’t a good argument to rise or drop these Pokemon. We know that Suicune PP stalls it’s opponents and that Deoxys sets up rocks and screens.

(normal) -> UR

I think i have tried everything to make this mon work but it's honestly fucking terrible. If u were to run this mon u have to give up Mega Lopunny which is honestly a terrible trade as Mega Audino improves no match up at all and it doesnt have a good offensive presence even at +3 with an offensive calm mind set and defensively it is outclassed by chansey and p2. It only leaves u with a worse match up against Poison and Steel which normal alrdy has a fair amount of trouble with when running Mega Lopunny.
Yeah Mega Audino is pretty bad but saying it has no niche when it can counter and set up all over mons like Terrakion is pushing it. I don’t know what you were expecting but Mega Audino is in the same ranking as Blissey and Miltank which arguably are both far worse than it. We know what makes it bad, which is why it is placed as such a low rank. D ranked Pokemon are pretty much useless and only have an extremely small niche in the metagame, which Mega Audino does as it’s the best Calm Mind user the type has access to and it’s bulk is pretty remarkable.

(psychic) -> S

Deoxys-S is simply too good to forego in the current meta, with all the psychic HO teams and its great speed it is almost guaranteed to get up Rocks and atleast 1 screen of sorts, did i mention it could taunt opposing leads to prevent hazards going up?
Again, you’re just explaining what Deoxys-S does in the current metagame and not why it should actually rise. It doesn’t have an irreplaceable role on Psychic as teams have a wide variety of SR leads to choose from, many of which can actually last for more than the first couple of turns.

(psychic) -> S

Alakazam is one of the best offense checks for Psychic rn it basically guarantees a free kill with its Sash counter set, besides Gallade which is also a good offense killer but comes with the cost of a mega slot and does not always guarantee a kill.
Same case as before. I am sure most players know that Alakazam is “one of the best offense checks for Psychic rn” and how it “guarantees a free kill with its sash counter set” but you don’t really say anything beyond that. Alakazam simply is not as good or as influential as the current S ranks.

(water) -> S

Suicune basically wins vs any of water's "worse" matchups by being able to PP stall its foe, also wracks up damage when paired with toxic spikes from toxapex, it also has respectable offenses when it starts setting up calm minds and its bulk is just amazing.
Water simply is way too versatile of a type to justify this. Obviously Vincune is a top tier threat but it is not mandatory on Water purely because many other playstyles without it are viable as well.

(steel) -> D/C

This is currently the only mon Steel has access to that can outspeed both Volcarona and Zard X at +1 (with choice scarf), this should be big enough of a niche for it especially considering how weak steel is to both.
This was brought up earlier and I couldn’t disagree more. Volcarona will rarely find setup opportunities against Steel when it is so easily checked by Stone Edge Air Balloon Heatran which is very common right now. It can’t even guarantee the OHKO on Mega Charizard X either, so what niche does it have that warrants it any rank at all?

Edit: you really didn’t mention why Deo-S should rise at all. Smeargle is the face of Hyper Offense Normal yet it sits at an appropriate C rank. Now obviously Deo-S and HO Psychic are better than HO Normal, but this goes to show you shouldn’t nom a mon based on its necessity in one out of many playstyles. I don’t know what you think D ranked means but it is literally reserved for “simply terrible” mons that have something going for them.
 
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Jord-e

formerly ThiccTornadus
Yeah so I disagree with most of these. Simply telling us what these mons do isn’t a good argument to rise or drop these Pokemon. We know that Suicune PP stalls it’s opponents and that Deoxys sets up rocks and screens.


Yeah Mega Audino is pretty bad but saying it has no niche when it can counter and set up all over mons like Terrakion is pushing it. I don’t know what you were expecting but Mega Audino is in the same ranking as Blissey and Miltank which arguably are both far worse than it. We know what makes it bad, which is why it is placed as such a low rank. D ranked Pokemon are pretty much useless and only have an extremely small niche in the metagame, which Mega Audino does as it’s the best Calm Mind user the type has access to and it’s bulk is pretty remarkable. You also mentioned the opportunity cost of Mega Lopunny, yet mention the Poison matchup in which they both do equally bad in.


Again, you’re just explaining what Deoxys-S does in the current metagame and not why it should actually rise. It doesn’t have an irreplaceable role on Psychic as teams have a wide variety of SR leads to choose from, many of which can actually last for more than the first couple of turns.
Indeed, also unrank blissey and miltank theyre simply terrible too. However mega audino comes at the cost of ur mega slot which it is just not worth.

2ndly i described what deos did and why it should rise is simply bc what we alrdy know what it does, its the face of psychic ho which is great guarantees screens and hazards. To simply put it A is too low and S is just a more approperiate ranking for it.

As the other noms u disagreed with i van see where ur coming from
 
Indeed, also unrank blissey and miltank theyre simply terrible too. However mega audino comes at the cost of ur mega slot which it is just not worth.

2ndly i described what deos did and why it should rise is simply bc what we alrdy know what it does, its the face of psychic ho which is great guarantees screens and hazards. To simply put it A is too low and S is just a more approperiate ranking for it.

As the other noms u disagreed with i van see where ur coming from
Haaku already addressed most of the points I was going to, but I'll clarify Deoxys-S for you.

What makes a Pokemon S Rank is how essential it is to all team archetypes for the type itself. For example, Victini deserves it's S Rank because it is completely essential to all Psychic builds, no matter what. Deoxys on the other hand, is really only important on HO teams. Psychic is a flexible type that isnt restricted to purely one playstyle, so it doesn't make sense for a Pokemon to be S Rank if it's not essential for the type in general.
 
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Jellicent A --> B (Ghost)


In generation 7, Trick Room Ghost takes the cake.


That being said, Jellicent should move down on Ghost because it is outclassed on Trick Room builds by Cofagrigus. Unlike Cofagrigus, Jellicent has no offensive presence whatsoever and cannot abuse it like Cofagrigus can. While Jellicent can tank hits and set it up reliably, Jellicent gets rid of so much momentum, and invites many things in for free because of its passiveness. Jellicent has to set Trick Room up, then switch out into an abuser such as Marowak or Dhelmise to take advantage of it. Cofagrigus is the better Trick Room setter since it can use Nasty Plot to boost its Special Attack to high levels, set Trick Room, and abuse it using Z-Shadow ball to nuke things, while also having a high enough Defense stat to set Trick Room up on many physical attackers and knock them out with Z-Shadow Ball, hence making Cofagrigus the superior Trick Room setter. Cofagrigus is also the few switchins Ghost has to Mega Lopunny, as a little bonus.

Jellicent is outclassed on Trick Room Ghost.

But what about balanced Ghost?
Balanced Ghost is terrible in generation 7. A playstyle that revolves around defensive cores while the metagame is shifting toward more offensive teams is a terrible playstyle and should never be used over Trick Room. Jellicent is most commonly seen on Balanced Ghost teams, a playstyle that is no longer viable in Monotype, and should be moved down to B. Jellicent should not be ranked alongside Gengar and Marowak, two very splashable Ghost types that fit on all archetypes and are far more important than Jellicent.
 
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Jellicent A --> B (Ghost)


In generation 7, Trick Room Ghost takes the cake.


That being said, Jellicent should move down on Ghost because it is outclassed on Trick Room builds by Cofagrigus. Unlike Cofagrigus, Jellicent has no offensive presence whatsoever and cannot abuse it like Cofagrigus can. While Jellicent can tank hits and set it up reliably, Jellicent gets rid of so much momentum, and invites many things in for free because of its passiveness. Jellicent has to set Trick Room up, then switch out into an abuser such as Marowak or Dhelmise to take advantage of it. Cofagrigus is the better Trick Room setter since it can use Nasty Plot to boost its Special Attack to high levels, set Trick Room, and abuse it using Z-Shadow ball to nuke things, while also having a high enough Defense stat to set Trick Room up on many physical attackers and knock them out with Z-Shadow Ball, hence making Cofagrigus the superior Trick Room setter. Cofagrigus is also the few switchins Ghost has to Mega Lopunny, as a little bonus.

Jellicent is outclassed on Trick Room Ghost.

But what about balanced Ghost?
Balanced Ghost is terrible in generation 7. A playstyle that revolves around defensive cores while the metagame is shifting toward more offensive teams is a terrible playstyle and should never be used over Trick Room. Jellicent is most commonly seen on Balanced Ghost teams, a playstyle that is no longer viable in Monotype, and should be moved down to B. Jellicent should not be ranked alongside Gengar and Marowak, two very splashable Ghost types that fit on all archetypes and are far more important than Jellicent.
I heavily disagree with this. Jelli should stay at A or even have S. Without jellicent there wasn't a way to beat vincune. Water absorb jellicent legit helped me win a mlt match. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-648053167

Also it is a great spD wall that can absorb special attacks and toxic mons upon switch ins. On tr ghost it can set up TR on a special Mon then maro or something more attack heavy can come in and sweep. It plays more of a support role, but plays its role very well.

I dunno why you dissing balance ghost. People like Garry has done well this gen with a balance ghost, so I wouldn't say it's terrible, it still can work this gen as jelli plays the role of the spD wall and being able to taunt set up mons or toxic. While yes it is passive, it can still do a lot for any mono ghost team.
 
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roman

i could be ur supermodel
is a Tiering Contributor
I heavily disagree with this. Jelli should stay at A or even have S. Without jellicent there wasn't a way to beat vincune. Water absorb jellicent legit helped me win a mlt match. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-648053167

Also it is a great spD wall that can absorb special attacks and toxic mons upon switch ins. On tr ghost it can set up TR on a special Mon then maro or something more attack heavy can come in and sweep. It plays more of a support role, but plays its role very well.

I dunno why you dissing balance ghost. People like Garry has done well this gen with a balance ghost, so I wouldn't say it's terrible, it still can work this gen as jelli plays the role of the spD wall and being able to taunt set up mons or toxic. While yes it is passive, it can still do a lot for any mono ghost team.
Balance ghost really isn't good this gen. offensive types like ground really have no problem blowing right past its extremely mediocre defensive core and balance ghost really can't do anything against balance types like fly and normal except try to stall out the opposition, as indicated by your replay. ghost having a pretty average defensive typing and already being a super niche pick also don't really help balance ghost's viability either.

btw peaking ladder a few times seriously does nothing to reflect what's good in the metagame which is obvious when this / successful ladder player / goes 0-2 in mlt.

doing a nom so this isnt a 1 liner


a -> b

nothing in the meta has really shifted against it lately, it's just fallen off a ton this gen. heal bell + elec immunity is great team support and z heal bell is pretty cool, but it's honestly a super niche mon fitting almost solely on stall teams, as ss offensive completely bypasses this in favor of offensive mons and vincune teams really generally go with swampert for it's ability to compress roles. i could see it fitting on emp + tine vincune squads but lanturn only stacks the really annoying ground weakness when something such as gastro can provide the same exact support (lacks heal bell but has real recovery) as well as a neutrality to ground (!) which helps even out the ground mu. i really think this would fit in with more niche picks such as tapu fini and alomomola in b rank. if this doesn't drop i feel like gastro should rise as it has the ground neutrality, recovery, a less predictable movepool, and roughly the same bulk at the cost of heal bell which really isn't that important because of toxapex absorbing status, especially toxic, so nicely. also does the same thing lanturn does in the elec mu if you play around toxic users. replay 1

seconding these noms ---


c -> b
this should totally rise. being able to remove tspikes against poison and water is super helpful and it sets up all over bb pex which is really nice. does all of what haaku mentioned as well, taking out massive annoyances to fighting such as latios and raichu. definitely a niche mon but actually has some good uses.

b -> d
has only really had niches in oras on hazard stack steel and in cham meta which was however many months ago. hazard stack steel offense fell off a ton and the fighting immunity isn't all that notable when stuff like keld just blows past you. still has a niche in the fighting immunity and can at least force prediction with keld so it should still be ranked though.

b -> a

dd ttar is capable of flipping some of dark's matchups against types like bug and fairy and literally sets up on anything with 100 / 150 / 120 defensive stats in addition to the sdef boost from sandstorm. largely contributes to ho dark's success and is capable of winning games thanks to its insane bulk, diverse movepool, and great attack + reasonable speed.
 
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I heavily disagree with this. Jelli should stay at A or even have S. Without jellicent there wasn't a way to beat vincune. Water absorb jellicent legit helped me win a mlt match. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-648053167

Also it is a great spD wall that can absorb special attacks and toxic mons upon switch ins. On tr ghost it can set up TR on a special Mon then maro or something more attack heavy can come in and sweep. It plays more of a support role, but plays its role very well.

I dunno why you dissing balance ghost. People like Garry has done well this gen with a balance ghost, so I wouldn't say it's terrible, it still can work this gen as jelli plays the role of the spD wall and being able to taunt set up mons or toxic. While yes it is passive, it can still do a lot for any mono ghost team.
Balance Ghost is nowhere as good as Trick Room Ghost. You're switching in between defensive Pokemon to take attacks from wallbreakers. Sooner or later your defensive core will get worn down, and when one of them faints then your balance is broken. Ghost is much better played offensively, and is very able to do so with the new additions it has received this generation. Alolan Marowak is the best Trick Room abuser Ghost has to offer, and is a staple on the archetype for that reason. Mimikyu makes use of its Disguise ability to set up and its Fairy typing and coverage to check Dark type Pokemon, while also stopping sweepers such as Azumarill from blowing past your team. With all these new additions and the fact that the metagame is shifting toward offensive builds, I don't know why anyone would pass up the opportunity to play Ghost offensively.

Now, going back to Jellicent. By ranking it A, you're saying that it's equivalent to Gengar and Marowak, two very splashable Pokemon that play huge roles in Ghost's success. Gengar's high offensive stats and Poison coverage, it is able to check Fairy type Pokemon, a common sight in this metagame and with the loss of Levitate it can now remove Toxic Spikes to support bulky Ghost types such as Mega Sableye or Jellicent. Gengar is also able to revenge kill many threats to Ghost, such as Mega Lopunny and Tapu Koko with a Choice Scarf. I would call Gengar a mandatory option on all Ghost teams, if anything.

Alolan Marowak, another fine addition to Ghost, fits on both Trick Room and balanced builds. I would even call Alolan Marowak the sole reason why Trick Room Ghost exists, as its low speed and high damage output allows it to abuse Trick Room effectively, and is a scary Pokemon to deal with under Trick Room. Gengar and Alolan Marowak have both been nominated to S, but are A due to Mimikyu and Mega Sableye being much more consistent and crucial in the roles they preform.

Now, Jellicent's obviously not on the level of these two staples on Ghost, so why should it be ranked by Gengar and Alolan Marowak?
 
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Balance Ghost is nowhere as good as Trick Room Ghost. You're switching in between defensive Pokemon to take attacks from wallbreakers. Sooner or later your defensive core will get worn down, and when one of them faints then your balance is broken. Ghost is much better played offensively, and is very able to do so with the new additions it has received this generation. Alolan Marowak is the best Trick Room abuser Ghost has to offer, and is a staple on the archetype for that reason. Mimikyu makes use of its Disguise ability to set up and its Fairy typing and coverage to check Dark type Pokemon, while also stopping sweepers such as Azumarill from blowing past your team. With all these new additions and the fact that the metagame is shifting toward offensive builds, I don't know why anyone would pass up the opportunity to play Ghost offensively.

Now, going back to Jellicent. By ranking it A, you're saying that it's equivalent to Gengar and Marowak, two very splashable Pokemon that play huge roles in Ghost's success. Gengar's high offensive stats and Poison coverage, it is able to check Fairy type Pokemon, a common sight in this metagame and with the loss of Levitate it can now remove Toxic Spikes to support bulky Ghost types such as Mega Sableye or Jellicent. Gengar is also able to revenge kill many threats to Ghost, such as Mega Lopunny and Tapu Koko with a Choice Scarf. I would call Gengar a mandatory option on all Ghost teams, if anything.

Alolan Marowak, another fine addition to Ghost, fits on both Trick Room and balanced builds. I would even call Alolan Marowak the sole reason why Trick Room Ghost exists, as its low speed and high damage output allows it to abuse Trick Room effectively, and is a scary Pokemon to deal with under Trick Room. Gengar and Alolan Marowak have both been nominated to S, but are A due to Mimikyu and Mega Sableye being much more consistent and crucial in the roles they preform.

Now, Jellicent's obviously not on the level of these two staples on Ghost, so why should it be ranked by Gengar and Alolan Marowak?
I do agree that balanced ghost isn’t as good as trick room ghost, however this point doesn’t mean jellicent shouldn’t be A ranked.

Addressing your original post, yes, cofag has an offensive presence whereas, jelli doesn’t. However, that doesn’t mean it’s outclassed. Why? Because literally every single trick room team in every single tier has a bulky setter that can tank hits. Sure you have Sableye but it can’t set up trick room, and it can very easily be overwhelmed as the only defensive mon on a purely offensive team. By running 5 offensive tr mons and a Sableye, not only are you asking to be completely cleaned by outside of trick room, you’re also making it harder for yourself to keep trick room up because your only switchin to hard hitting moves can’t set trick room himself.

Onto your second post, you claim that jellicent shouldn’t be ranked with gengar and a-maro. I actually agree with you that gengar shouldn’t be ranked with jelli, but that’s moreso that I believe gengar should be S, and less so that jelli shouldn’t be A.

I definitely think a-maro should be in the same ranking as jellicent. You say a-maro is splashable, but literally every build of ghost can run jellicent and it will still do something to support the team. (Not to mention non jellicent ghost builds have the tendency to get washed by things like vincune and mega diancie). You say that a-maro can fit on both balance and trick room, and that without maro, balance ghost wouldn’t exist. Both arguably true. But I can say the same thing about jellicent. Jellicent can fit on both trick room and balance, and without jellicent, nobody would run balance ghost. Just like a non a-maro tr ghost is a bad tr ghost, a non jelli balance is a bad balance. (Please don’t try to dismiss this point because “balance ghost is bad” because trick room ghost is also pretty bad when in comparison to other types).

I definitely support Keeping jellicent at A. Whether gengar should stay with jellicent and a-maro instead of being S ranked is a topic I’m actually interested in.
 
Time for some nominations.

First of all, I agree with Mega Tyranitar rising to A for Mono Dark. This Pokemon is easily the best set-up sweeper on Dark, as it can take advantage of it's huge all-around bulk while setting up, and then use it's massive 164 base Attack and large offensive movepool to cut through unprepared teams. These two factors effectively make it the mascot of offensive Dark teams: It just gets so many opportunities to switch in and start Dragon Dancing, and can then do huge damage.

And now, for a nomination of my own. But beware, for it may or may not be argument-inducing.

coolnotoverate.png

Type: Null (Normal): Unranked ---> D

Alright, please hear me out on this one. So, at a first glance, Type: Null may seem like a completely inferior Porygon2. Sure, it's slightly bulkier, but what does that matter when you don't have recover, have much less useful movepool options, and you're slower to boot? Yes, all seems bad for Type: Null, but it does have one small thing to differentiate it from the normal duck: Swords Dance.

Type: Garbage (Type: Null) @ Eviolite
Ability: Battle Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Swords Dance
- Return/Double-Edge
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

By using this set, Type: Null can function as a usable lategame sweeper, differentiating it from Porygon2. It also can differentiate itself from Normal's premiere SD user, Diggersby, by having much higher bulk, which allows it to pull off crazy stuff like this:

+5 252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Type: Null: 339-399 (86 - 101.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

You can almost look at Type: Null as some kind of weird albino fusion between those two aforementioned mons, oddly fitting considering it's concept.

Ok, now feel free to toss your angry comments at me.
 
Jirachi: A -> S (Psychic)



This particular nomination has been in the back of my mind for quite a while, and it should be simple to see why. The options that it has been granted make it sometimes unpredictable for the opponent to read, and in some cases are forced to gamble on what kind of set it really is. While it has been recently known to become a Utility mon with TWave/SR with U-turn to pivot and Iron Head to hax, it can also be used as a scarfer to check, match or beat the likes of Mega Diancie, Non-Scarf Gengar, LO Greninja, Mega Altaria and more, while also sometimes running Healing Wish to gain momentum. Omni-boosting with Z-Happy Hour is also a viable option, as it can utilize its' haxy movepool with the likes of Iron Head, Zen Headbutt and Body Slam physically, or can utilize special moves such as TBolt, Energy Ball or Moonblast to deal with the likes of Mantine, Celesteela, Quagsire, Mega Sableye, and others. Hell, even Trick Room is an option to consider with slower, bulkier teammates such as Mega Slowbro and Cresselia. The additional Steel typing makes it a great place to start in terms of the core you want to centralize around. For example, pairing Jirachi with Victini is a solid offensive core, as Jirachi covers the Rock weakness that Victini struggles with, while Victini can blow back common steels outside of Heatran that Jirachi typically can't touch. They also function well as a VoltTurn core for eachother, as it is possible to continuously U-turn out to consistently have momentum. Defensively, SpDef Jirachi goes great with Mega Latias, considering that Latias stomachs Jirachi's Fire weakness handily while also ignoring Ground based moves, while Jirachi is a decent stop to Fairies, Bugs, and Toxic mons like Chansey that would otherwise beat Latias in a 1v1 scenario. Simply put, this mon can do and practically does it all. Across all skill levels, anyone can really slap this mon on any kind of Psychic team and find relative success simply by the versatile nature of itself and its movepool, combined with the synergy that it has with its teammates. As a result I highly recommend that this mon becomes S rank.

P.S. Dugtrio: A -> B/C (IMO, C) (Ground)

Quick Nomination: Sure it has a niche in trapping Bulu and stalling out some turns of Grassy Terrain, but that's about it. Trapping isn't really that necessary for Ground to utilize besides Bulu, and any other role Duggy could possibly fulfill is outclassed by other common teammates. Add to the fact that it's too frail to really do anything other than get a hit off on something, the mon is virtually dead weight in pretty much every other matchup.
 
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Harpp

formerly Alpha-Harpreet
Jirachi: A -> S (Psychic)



This particular nomination has been in the back of my mind for quite a while, and it should be simple to see why. The options that it has been granted make it sometimes unpredictable for the opponent to read, and in some cases are forced to gamble on what kind of set it really is. While it has been recently known to become a Utility mon with TWave/SR with U-turn to pivot and Iron Head to hax, it can also be used as a scarfer to check, match or beat the likes of Mega Diancie, , LO Greninja, Mega Altaria and more, while also sometimes running Healing Wish to gain momentum. Omni-boosting with Z-Happy Hour is also a viable option, as it can utilize its' haxy movepool with the likes of Iron Head, Zen Headbutt and Body Slam physically, or can utilize special moves such as TBolt, Energy Ball or Moonblast to deal with the likes of Mantine, Celesteela, Quagsire, Mega Sableye, and others. Hell, even Trick Room is an option to consider with slower, bulkier teammates such as Mega Slowbro and Cresselia. The additional Steel typing makes it a great place to start in terms of the core you want to centralize around. For example, pairing Jirachi with Victini is a solid offensive core, as Jirachi covers the Rock weakness that Victini struggles with, while Victini can blow back common steels outside of Heatran that Jirachi typically can't touch. They also function well as a VoltTurn core for eachother, as it is possible to continuously U-turn out to consistently have momentum. Defensively, SpDef Jirachi goes great with Mega Latias, considering that Latias stomachs Jirachi's Fire weakness handily while also ignoring Ground based moves, while Jirachi is a decent stop to Fairies, Bugs, and Toxic mons like Chansey that would otherwise beat Latias in a 1v1 scenario. Simply put, this mon can do and practically does it all. Across all skill levels, anyone can really slap this mon on any kind of Psychic team and find relative success simply by the versatile nature of itself and its movepool, combined with the synergy that it has with its teammates. As a result I highly recommend that this mon becomes S rank.

P.S. Dugtrio: A -> B/C (IMO, C) (Ground)

Quick Nomination: Sure it has a niche in trapping Bulu and stalling out some turns of Grassy Terrain, but that's about it. Trapping isn't really that necessary for Ground to utilize besides Bulu, and any other role Duggy could possibly fulfill is outclassed by other common teammates. Add to the fact that it's too frail to really do anything other than get a hit off on something, the mon is virtually dead weight in pretty much every other matchup.
I dont agree with your nominations,

Jirachi: You proposed jirachi to S rank which I feel it does not deserves because lets take a look at other S rank mons for psychic on the VR list, mew and victini both are metagame defining pokemon with stall breaker,DD set for mew while Band/Scarf set for victini. While its true that jirachi checks pokemon which you mentioned such as mega diancie,non scarf gengar etc but it just fills an important role for mono psychic teams which is utility set or the scarf set and that makes it fall under A rank which it currently is. S rank pokemon are metagame defining and Jirachi is not metagame defining like mew or victini. Jirachi is splashable but not always needed unlike mew and vicitini which are far more splashable on both balanced and HO builds, Jirachi finds it hard to find a slot specifically on Ho builds due to its low damage output and tight team slots.

Dugtrio: Dugtrio traps and severely weakens tapu bulu which is a huge threat otherwise, it does more than stallling grassy terrain turns.
0 SpA Dugtrio Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 168-200 (59.7 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
after Grassy Terrain recovery
Trapping is necessary for ground teams as it allows to check tapu bulu with sludge wave, chansey and porygon2 with reversal so that landorus or Excadrill can have easier time wrecking havoc. Dugtrio also checks A-Raichu with sucker punch which is a threat to ground teams since Excadrill in sand is outsped by A-raichu in terrain. Dugtrio is meant to be a revenge killer and so it utilizes focus sash to get its job done so the part about frail is not all true because it comes in via a free switch or smart doubles and uses a sash.It does that job fairly well and it is not dead weight in every other match up except maybe flying. it is definitely not C rank where C rank pokemon have niche roles and are outclassed by other pokemon in the higher ranks. I dont think any other mon can revenge kill those aforementioned threats like dugtrio on ground. I am open for more discussion on this.
 
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Vid

Love Yourz
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
Moderator
Here's the new update
Bug
Mega Heracross A--->B
Vikavolt C--->D
Golisopod D--->Unranked

Dark
Umbreon C---->D
Incineroar D--->Unranked
Sableye D--->Unranked
Sharpedo D--->Unranked
Mega Tyranitar B---->A

Dragon
Kingdra D--->Unranked
Haxorus D--->Unranked
Tyrantrum C---->Unranked

Electric
Raikou B--->C
Electivire C--->D
Luxray C--->D
Stunfisk D--->Unranked
Vikavolt D--->Unranked

Fire
Volcanion A--->B
Alolan Marowak C--->B
Salazzle C--->D
Mega Houndoom D--->Unranked
Ninetales D--->Unranked

Flying
Thundurus-Therian C--->B
Gyarados B---->C
Mandibuzz Unranked--->C

Ground
Flygon C--->D

Poison
Mega Beedrill C--->D
Salazzle C--->D
Qwilfish D---->Unranked
Tentacruel B--->C

Psychic
Necrozma D---->Unranked
Uxie D---->Unranked
Slowking D---->Unranked
Starmie C---->D
Latias C---->D
Celebi C--->D
Gothitelle A---->Unranked
Wobbuffet B---->Unranked

Steel
Doublade B--->C
Mega Aggron D---->Unranked

Rock
Tyrantrum C--->Unranked

Water
Mega Slowbro A--->B
Kabutops C--->D
Alomomola B---->C
Politoed C---->D
Feraligatr D---->Unranked
Seismitoad B---->C
Lanturn A--->B
Azumarill A---->B
Ludicolo D---->Unranked
Slowking D--->Unranked
Volcanion C---->D
Slowbro C---->D
Tapu Fini B--->C
Mega Gyarados B---->C
Rotom-Wash B---->C
Empoleon A---->B
 
I dont agree with your nominations,

Jirachi: You proposed jirachi to S rank which I feel it does not deserves because lets take a look at other S rank mons for psychic on the VR list, mew and victini both are metagame defining pokemon with stall breaker,DD set for mew while Band/Scarf set for victini. While its true that jirachi checks pokemon which you mentioned such as mega diancie,non scarf gengar etc but it just fills an important role for mono psychic teams which is utility set or the scarf set and that makes it fall under A rank which it currently is. S rank pokemon are metagame defining and Jirachi is not metagame defining like mew or victini. Jirachi is splashable but not always needed unlike mew and vicitini which are far more splashable on both balanced and HO builds, Jirachi finds it hard to find a slot specifically on Ho builds due to its low damage output and tight team slots.

Dugtrio: Dugtrio traps and severely weakens tapu bulu which is a huge threat otherwise, it does more than stallling grassy terrain turns.
0 SpA Dugtrio Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 168-200 (59.7 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
after Grassy Terrain recovery
Trapping is necessary for ground teams as it allows to check tapu bulu with sludge wave, chansey and porygon2 with reversal so that landorus or Excadrill can have easier time wrecking havoc. Dugtrio also checks A-Raichu with sucker punch which is a threat to ground teams since Excadrill in sand is outsped by A-raichu in terrain. Dugtrio is meant to be a revenge killer and so it utilizes focus sash to get its job done so the part about frail is not all true because it comes in via a free switch or smart doubles and uses a sash.It does that job fairly well and it is not dead weight in every other match up except maybe flying. it is definitely not C rank where C rank pokemon have niche roles and are outclassed by other pokemon in the higher ranks. I dont think any other mon can revenge kill those aforementioned threats like dugtrio on ground. I am open for more discussion on this.
Why I do understand why you think these nominations should be as such, I still hold my ground by my words.

Jirachi: Damage output isn't really necessary on a mon that can virtually flinch its way to victory with little to no skill involved. It's as simple as clicking Iron Head, Zen Headbutt or Heart Stamp repeatedly and respectively, and really only requires a good amount of flinches on the right mon to force the opponent to switch or sack their mon off. I do also think that the mon also can find a role as a scarfer on HO builds, specifically ones that lack Defensive Mew or Latias to Defog hazards away, especially in matchups where Victini is critical to your success, such as Steel, Bug, and Fairy. Consider the fact that Victini is going to be either a wincon or THE wincon once a certain mon has been put down (Steel: Heatran, Fairy: M-Diancie), and the fact that it is typically run with a scarf most of the time without any sort of reliable recovery makes it prone to Stealth Rock Damage. By utilizng Jirachi, it can be used as offensive pressure to hax a mon to death (as aforementioned above), or used as Healing Wish fodder to revive Victini so it can keep offensive momentum on your side, and potentially win the game in the long run.

Dugtrio: I do acknowledge that it severely weakens Bulu. I also hadn't really thought about Chansey or p2 either tbh, nor Raichu-A, and I give you credit for that point. However I still feel inclined to utilize AV Seismitoad to Knock Off Eviolites so it makes things like CB/LO Exca more of a presence to sweep or dish hard hits. I also have the preference of using Band or Scarf Mamoswine to go and check Tapu Bulu, considering that I've seen people start shifting away from Choice Scarf variants into CB ones instead to break things like Toxapex and Ferrothorn much easier, making Mamoswine a good scare for Bulu. In the scenario where Scarf Bulu is against Duggy with any sort of chip at all, whether from hazards, status or anything else, Duggy just finds itself to be fodder, and in turn becomes dead weight. That's how I feel anyways.

252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 408-480 (144.6 - 170.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Band vs. Band)
252 Atk Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 248-294 (87.9 - 104.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO (Scarf vs. Scarf; Pretty much guraranteed after Rocks)
 
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Why I do understand why you think these nominations should be as such, I still hold my ground by my words.

Jirachi: Damage output isn't really necessary on a mon that can virtually flinch its way to victory with little to no skill involved. It's as simple as clicking Iron Head, Zen Headbutt or Heart Stamp repeatedly and respectively, and really only requires a good amount of flinches on the right mon to force the opponent to switch or sack their mon off. I do also think that the mon also can find a role as a scarfer on HO builds, specifically ones that lack Defensive Mew or Latias to Defog hazards away, especially in matchups where Victini is critical to your success, such as Steel, Bug, and Fairy. Consider the fact that Victini is going to be either a wincon or THE wincon once a certain mon has been put down (Steel: Heatran, Fairy: M-Diancie), and the fact that it is typically run with a scarf most of the time without any sort of reliable recovery makes it prone to Stealth Rock Damage. By utilizng Jirachi, it can be used as offensive pressure to hax a mon to death (as aforementioned above), or used as Healing Wish fodder to revive Victini so it can keep offensive momentum on your side, and potentially win the game in the long run.
P.S. Dugtrio: A -> B/C (IMO, C) (Ground)
Quick Nomination: Sure it has a niche in trapping Bulu and stalling out some turns of Grassy Terrain, but that's about it. Trapping isn't really that necessary for Ground to utilize besides Bulu, and any other role Duggy could possibly fulfill is outclassed by other common teammates. Add to the fact that it's too frail to really do anything other than get a hit off on something, the mon is virtually dead weight in pretty much every other matchup.
You shouldn't rely on Jirachi's flinch hax to win a certain matchup. The opposing Pokemon still has a 40% chance to break throuh, and apart from that Jirachi still does not have enough offensive presence to push it all the way to S. In fact, I think Stealth Rock Jirachi is the main reason why Jirachi is A, not the scarf set, since Jirachi has a nice defensive typing as well as access to utility moves such as Thunder wave and U-turn. There are many psychic builds, hyper offensive or balance, that can function without Jirachi. Jirachi is nowhere as near as good as Mew or Victini on psychic. An S ranked Pokemon should not be based on how good the type is with that Pokemon, but what the type struggles to do without the Pokemon.

I also heavily disagree with your dugtrio nomination. Dugtrio provides a valuable asset to ground called trapping. Dugtrio is the only Pokemon that can remove threats with certainty, such as Chansey, Tapu Bulu, and Greninja, as well as Celesteela under Gravity. Removing these Pokemon from the game allow your other 5 Pokemon to do a lot of damage. For example, if you trap over Chansey with Dugtrio, Landorous can now click Focus Blast against normal without worrying about Chansey walling it. Trapping and removing Tapu Bulu flips the Fairy matchup as Tapu Bulu is one of the most dangerous threats to Ground because of Grassy Terrain and Horn Leech. Dugtrio is way better than the rest of the B ranked Pokemon and sits well with the rest of the A ranks.
 
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You shouldn't rely on Jirachi's flinch hax to win a certain matchup. The opposing Pokemon still has a 40% chance to break throuh, and apart from that Jirachi still does not have enough offensive presence to push it all the way to S. In fact, I think Stealth Rock Jirachi is the main reason why Jirachi is A, not the scarf set, since Jirachi has a nice defensive typing as well as access to utility moves such as Thunder wave and U-turn. There are many psychic builds, hyper offensive or balance, that can function without Jirachi. Jirachi is nowhere as near as good as Mew or Victini on psychic. An S ranked Pokemon should not be based on how good the type is with that Pokemon, but what the type struggles to do without the Pokemon.
That's not the point of my nomination. Sure you're not supposed to rely on hax to win a matchup, but that's one of the roles Jirachi can have at its disposal. It's the fact that it can be utilized so many different ways and can be adapted to the type of team you want to create that makes Jirachi really solid. Without Jirachi, Psychic really struggles with various forms of status; mainly Poison, but especially T-Spikes. Since there aren't any solid spinners that work with the current Psychic meta, coupled with the fact that two mons that can defog are more preferably suited to being a Bulky Attacker (M-Latias) or Setup Sweeper (Mew), it is possible for the person facing against Psychic to make an appropriate switch as it sets up. The other Defogger in Scarf Latios serves it's purpose well, but is often prone to trapping or setup opportunities for when it defogs on A-Muk, Bisharp, Mimikyu, and others. Having Jirachi on a team to come in on any form of poison status makes it only one reason out of many why Jirachi is an optimal pick. Having the ability to Healing Wish pass to a foe is also useful for keeping a wincon healthy.

As for Dugtrio, I already get the idea behind trapping the any grounded and weakening Bulu. However the key word here is "weakening", Just because you got a decent hit off on Bulu doesn't make it the end all, be all stop to Tapu Bulu. A Scarf Bulu can easily work under most conditions that Ground can provide, considering the valuable recovery and boosted power from Horn Leech and Grassy Terrain. In that sense, all you really let it do is let something die for damage that it can recover off later, while at the same time weakening you in the process.
 
That's not the point of my nomination. Sure you're not supposed to rely on hax to win a matchup, but that's one of the roles Jirachi can have at its disposal. It's the fact that it can be utilized so many different ways and can be adapted to the type of team you want to create that makes Jirachi really solid. Without Jirachi, Psychic really struggles with various forms of status; mainly Poison, but especially T-Spikes. Since there aren't any solid spinners that work with the current Psychic meta, coupled with the fact that two mons that can defog are more preferably suited to being a Bulky Attacker (M-Latias) or Setup Sweeper (Mew), it is possible for the person facing against Psychic to make an appropriate switch as it sets up. The other Defogger in Scarf Latios serves it's purpose well, but is often prone to trapping or setup opportunities for when it defogs on A-Muk, Bisharp, Mimikyu, and others. Having Jirachi on a team to come in on any form of poison status makes it only one reason out of many why Jirachi is an optimal pick. Having the ability to Healing Wish pass to a foe is also useful for keeping a wincon healthy.

As for Dugtrio, I already get the idea behind trapping the any grounded and weakening Bulu. However the key word here is "weakening", Just because you got a decent hit off on Bulu doesn't make it the end all, be all stop to Tapu Bulu. A Scarf Bulu can easily work under most conditions that Ground can provide, considering the valuable recovery and boosted power from Horn Leech and Grassy Terrain. In that sense, all you really let it do is let something die for damage that it can recover off later, while at the same time weakening you in the process.
How are Toxic Spikes related to whether Jirachi is S rank material or not? The two types that utilitze Toxic Spikes, Water and Poison, all shrug off Jirachi. If you use Choice Scarfed Jirachi, Toxapex takes a hit, then goes into Alolan Muk since you're choice locked into Zen HeadButt/Heart Stamp. Jirachi can't touch Water either, so pushing Jirachi to S because of "LOL it doesn't get poisoned!" is not a viable argument. Poison and Water both have no trouble beating Jirachi. Jirachi does jack to both types bar setting Stealth Rock so i dont see how thats relevant lol. As I said, its not about what the type can do with the Pokemon, it's what the type cannot do without it. What does Psychic lose from not using Jirachi?

Responding to your Duggy trapping Tapu Bulu argument, Bulu using Wood Hammer will usually be enough to wear it down in range for Sludge Wave, especially since Dugtrio will be mostly carrying a Focus Sash. Tapu Bulu isn't gonna Horn Leech something like Landorous, it's gonna go straight into Wood Hammer, in that case you can send Dugtrio in to finish Tapu Bulu off because of Wood Hammer's recoil and prevent it from Horn Leeching later on in the game.
 
How are Toxic Spikes related to whether Jirachi is S rank material or not? The two types that utilitze Toxic Spikes, Water and Poison, all shrug off Jirachi. If you use Choice Scarfed Jirachi, Toxapex takes a hit, then goes into Alolan Muk since you're choice locked into Zen HeadButt/Heart Stamp. Jirachi can't touch Water either, so pushing Jirachi to S because of "LOL it doesn't get poisoned!" is not a viable argument. Poison and Water both have no trouble beating Jirachi. Jirachi does jack to both types bar setting Stealth Rock so i dont see how thats relevant lol. As I said, its not about what the type can do with the Pokemon, it's what the type cannot do without it. What does Psychic lose from not using Jirachi?

Responding to your Duggy trapping Tapu Bulu argument, Bulu using Wood Hammer will usually be enough to wear it down in range for Sludge Wave, especially since Dugtrio will be mostly carrying a Focus Sash. Tapu Bulu isn't gonna Horn Leech something like Landorous, it's gonna go straight into Wood Hammer, in that case you can send Dugtrio in to finish Tapu Bulu off because of Wood Hammer's recoil and prevent it from Horn Leeching later on in the game.
You said that "An S ranked Pokemon should not be based on how good the type is with that Pokemon, but what the type struggles to do without the Pokemon." I am telling you that Psychic struggles with various status conditions, and believe that the Poison Status happens to be the worst for Psychic to deal with, especially considering everything outside of Jirachi can be affected by it, and can be whittled down over time. You've also only given an example of how Psychic "does nothing" versus Poison, when you've only given one set out of the various others that Jirachi can utilize in order to beat it.

In terms of Duggy, Bulu isn't alone when facing Ground; other teammates such as Azumarill, Klefki, and Clefable take a role in assisting Tapu Bulu, whether it be setting screens or hazards to cripple foes, which in turn aids Bulu defensively, or having Azumarill threaten other Ground based teammates such as Excadrill and Mamoswine into their Water check, to where it is possible to double back out into Bulu and keep momentum on your side. Outside of the Ground Vs. Fairy MU, I already acknowledged Alpha-Harpreets other arguments for trapping other mons such as p2, Chansey, and A-Raichu and gave him credit for pointing them out, as I had not thought of them. However, I still hold my ground where I think the weaknesses of Dugtrio outweigh its strengths, and in turn believe it should be ranked lower.
 

Eien

I'll face myself
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Monotype Co-Leader
Right so this has gone on long enough. Cloud9 NxtLvl neither of your noms reflect what is good or not in Monotype and worse use reasoning that is devoid of metagame understanding.

Regarding Jirachi, no. It's not S rank whatsoever this generation. None of its sets are that good at all, and it's much worse than the two current S ranks. In fact, it is outclassed by those very S ranks in every single one of its roles. That means it can never be in the same ranking tier.

Choice Scarf is a completely irrelevant set that has literally never been good in the time I've played Monotype. It has 0 damage because a base 100 Attack stat is not going to do anything with a weak 80 BP move that doesn't even have useful offensive coverage. The reason Victini is so amazing in the Choice Scarf slot is because V-create is literally more than two times more powerful. Even more, Victini's Fire typing serves Psychic well against Steel and Bug. On the other hand, Jirachi's Steel typing only helps with Fairy, a matchup that isn't at all difficult compared to Steel and Bug, two of Psychic's hardest matchups even with how good Victini is. Victini utterly outclasses Jirachi in this slot.

Utility also isn't that great either. It's purely for role compression and doesn't really do any of its roles particularly amazingly. In fact, as far as I'm concerned, the only reason to use utility Jirachi is to free Mew to use one of its many great sets. The fact that Jirachi isn't good on teams without Mew highlight this fact. You would never use Jirachi on a team you can use Mew because it can do what Jirachi does but better. Being able to open up Mew's other roles is hardly S rank quality and it's incredibly clear that utility is completely outclassed by defensive Mew.

Z-Happy Hour is a set that is, once again, outclassed by Victini. Victini can use Z-Celebrate with Stored Power while still providing fantastic coverage as always with Searing Shot and Focus Blast. These are all incredibly powerful moves, with Stored Power being a 120 / 100 STAB move, Searing Shot being 100 / 100, and Focus Blast being 120 / 70. This lets Victini sweep many teams once weakened or if they lack top tier special walls like Chansey. In contrast to this performance, we look at Jirachi's absolutely terrible damage output. Its STAB moves are no stronger than 80 BP, and none of its useful other moves breaks 100 BP. This is even further exacerbated by the fact that Jirachi's general coverage is just awful because its moves have bad offensive typing for Psychic. You would never use Z-Happy Hour because you would always use Z-Celebrate on Victini instead.

You bring up that Jirachi forms great cores. Yes. That's because it's a support. It has no actual use on its own but only further highlights the use of other Pokemon. This is much different from say Klefki, which is directly contributing to the win condition of Fairy in many matchups. Jirachi just doesn't do anything on its own and relies completely its teammates. The worst part is that it's not even the best in that supporting role. It has no unique role and is outclassed in everything it can do. Also, if you say "but you can't use two Victini sets at the same time", well Latios is a better Choice Scarf user and a better Z-Move sweeper than Jirachi anyway, so you still wouldn't use Jirachi. Even A ranks are straight up better than it at everything it does individually.

Regarding Dugtrio, I find it strange you can so easily write off a Pokemon that traps and removes the single greatest threat to Ground in the current Monotype metagame. Dugtrio is also far from deadweight in other matchups if you use Reversal, which helps you break that ridiculous Normal defensive core if you lack Knock Off Landorus. Dugtrio also guaranteed traps Alolan Raichu, which is actually capable of beating Ground, and makes Electric an easy matchup instead of being surprisingly close to even. Because you don't need Knock Off Landorus, you can run Gravity to pair with Dugtrio. With Gravity active, Dugtrio can trap even Flying-types and Levitate users. This means you can trap and remove Celesteela, which is another one of the biggest threats to Ground. You can also trap Skarmory, Mega Charizard Y, and other targets. Pretending that it only beats Tapu Bulu is fundamentally a lack of understanding on what exactly Dugtrio offers to Ground. It is by far the best flex slot in my opinion because of just how much it beats for Ground that no other Pokemon could dream of compressing all into one slot.
 
Hey, folks. This is my first smogon post, but I've been playing around in Monotype for over a year at this point. Please take it a little easy.

Scolipede B -> A (Poison)



Poison has a very prominent weakness in psychic, really only having Alolan Muk to deal with it.

What I've come to find, however, is that Scolipede is Poison's best answer to psychic. If it can set up an SD, it can and will absolutely run through nearly every prominent mon used on psychic teams. Alolan muk is great for tanking special hits and knocking off constantly, but it still gets outsped and killed by a mega gallade CC or a V-create. In other words, AMuk doesn't have the offensive presence and threat that the horse-sized millipede has. Here's the set


Hi Billy Mays here (Scolipede) @ Waterium Z
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Megahorn
- Swords Dance
- Aqua Tail
- Earthquake

I run Adamant because after one turn, it outspeeds most of the current meta. (Its base speed of 112 is heavily underrated imo.) Megahorn and earthquake are its main attacking moves, and Z Aqua Tail is a helpful nuke. After a swords dance, things start dying before they have the chance to move. This set is great against more than just psychic too. A +2 Megahorn guaranteed 2HKOs both chansey and porygon2, EQ wreaks havoc on electric and steel (barring flying types). Z-Aqua Tail is just a nuke if Megahorn and EQ can't OHKO things. If scolipede gets one turn to set up, it really is capable of running through a multitude of teams, especially one of Poison's biggest weaknesses.

+2 252+ Atk Scolipede Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 398-470 (98.7 - 116.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Scolipede Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gallade-Mega: 373-439 (134.6 - 158.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Scolipede Megahorn vs. 240 HP / 156 Def Mew: 614-726 (153.1 - 181%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Pretty much, Scolipede is a premier physical threat on poison, which is lacking in that category. It can truck through a lot of walls and can deal with poison's main weakness fairly easily if it gets the chance to set up. I think those qualities are at least worthy of an A.
 
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Scolipede B -> A (Poison)

First, welcome to Smogon!

You make some very valid points but I disagree with Scoli for A for the following reasons:
-- Psychic isn't quite as lopsided against Poison as the type chart suggests, as the things A-Muk can't beat can be handled by its teammates to the extent where even Gengar isn't a necessity to manage Psychic teams. Which leads to the next point:
-- Everything on Psychic can OHKO you, so I'm not sure how you're going to use Swords Dance and live to tell about it
-- Scolipede is no doubt the best physical sweeper on the type, but it is weak to stealth rock and offers no defensive synergy whatsoever, and given the defensive nature of its S-rank core, a physical sweeper isn't really a necessity for the type (especially one that loses every time to Mega-Pinsir, which is one of the bigger threats to Poison)
-- Most importantly, the S-rank core is basically a necessity on any serious Poison team, which leaves 3 slots to be fought over by Crobat (your only viable Ground immunity + hazard control + flying coverage vs. Mega-Gallade and Mega-Pinsir), Nidoking (wallbreaker + stealth rocks), Nihilego (preferred scarfer due to Mega-Zard X, Volcarona, and Mega-Pinsir, but can also set rocks) and Gengar (still a capable scarfer, with Shadow Ball to manage Psychics). In this regard, Scolipede is very comparable to Salazzle (another B-rank) in that it has its uses and can heavily tip the scales in your favor for a few matchups, but in terms of overall utility the current A ranks all have them beat.

(BTW, you are definitely going to want Jolly on this thing, as being outrun by max speed Hydreigon and everything faster is not good without speed boosts under your belt)
 
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