Monotype Viability Rankings V2

[IceInhuman]

Ok, im gonna be throwing my 2 cents onto the table here on rock mono and some of the tier's ive seen just.....dont make a ton of sense.


Ill start with the big one for me: Rhyperior B--->A
Rhyperior being in B tier with the likes of m-aerodactyl and tyrantrum (more on that one later) is confounding. If you want a scizor check and you dont want to run M-Aggron, you have rhyperior in your team. period point paragraph. This pokemon is the reason we are even allowed to use mega diancie and mega aerodactyl as other viable team mega options. the WP set checks rocks major physical threats decently (Scizor, m-medicham, excadrill) while at the same time dealing solid damage to them if not blatantly OHKO'ing them with the weakness policy boost after taking whatever super effective hit they throw out (Superpower/bullet punch, HJK, EQ/Iron head respectively) Couple this with rhyperior's solid (no pun intended) ability and ridiculous physical bulk and raw damage and you have a lesser m-aggron that checks the same threats just as well. Does rhyperior deserve S rank?......no, m-aggron does the job better, as much as i dislike using the thing. But Rhyperior does deserve a Solid A Ranking and nothing less than that.

Archeops: D--->C--->B (Maybe, but definitely deserves C, B being questionable)
Archeops i feel is the one theres gonna be some debate on, and the prime reason i know is gonna be its ability: Defeatist. Ah defeatist, the thing that stops archeops from being a perfectly good A tier rock mon. its sad but for now we have to live with it. But the question is why bring this up from D to C (maybe B): Raw stats and versatility of sets and movepool. Archeops brings to the table a very hefty movepool, with stats to back up any playstyle that isnt being a wall (140 atk, 112 spatk, 110 speed) Archeops has access to amazing moves such as head smash, heat wave, EQ, acrobatics (for when you lose sitrus from spamming head smash) shadow claw, outrage, endeavor, quick attack, SR, taunt, tailwind, knock off, dragon pulse, focus blast, earth power, crunch , zen headbutt, all generic rock moves and even opting to ruin any mega venusaurs day with power herb sky attack that no other rock mon in the game can do out of the gate: 252+ Atk Archeops Sky Attack vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 332-392 (91.4 - 107.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

You can be a physical maniac, you have a solid enough movepool and special attack to warrant use of special attacks on it or even a full special attack set, and it can be used as a suicide lead and as a revenge killer via endeavor/QA
That is MUCH more than any of the other mons in D can even hope to bring to the table for rock mono. D is about being used for one specific thing, but archeops proves it does WAY more than 1 thing. Archeops for C, a possible B rank due to what im about to discuss next.

Tyrantrum: B--->C
Tyrantrum....how did you find your way into B? What? I never see you used in either of your typings! We are comparing tyrantrum with rhyperior, the back up check to the things that shut down rock as a whole? No. No. No. Absolutely not.
enough of the rant, getting to the point: Tyrantrum does not belong in B tier at all, it tries to do what terrakion used to do as a scarfer, spamming head smash and stuff, but it just doesnt do the job well enough to outclass terrakion OR archeops. Terrakion and archeops both have amazing speed tiers (108 and 110 respectively) and tyrantrum has a......71....thats pitiful. Terrakion and archeops BOTH outspeed it, and BOTH have higher attack stats than it (129 and 140 respectively), archeops has head smash, the same as tyrantrum and terrakion now runs choice band, giving it more damage than it as well. the dragon typing is....there, to be honest. its a shiny title that doesnt really help it except against grass and water. water has access to ice beam on the literal everything and grass can just toss m-venusaur in front of it and wait its tiny dino rampage out with leech seed, giga drain and synthesis. This thing needs to be scarfed to be useful, maybe if youre feeling ballsy you can choice band it and try for some cheese kills, but dont fool yourself, this thing does not warrant being in B tier at all. Tyrantrum to C rank.

Quick addendum on why im pushing for archeops' possible B tiering and the massive jump is the tyrantrum argument really, its blatantly outclassed by archeops at the thing tyrantrum does best: hit things hard with its face and hope it dies. Archeops can perform the feat nothing else in rock mono can pull off: OHKO'ing defensive m-venusaur without a crit. Literally nothing else can do it. a M-aerodactyl if given brave bird and adamant nature STILL doesnt OHKO this thing. That in and of itself is a feat for rock monotype. If the first thing youre thinking about when you think about archeops is defeatist, you should go back and look at those....amazing defensive stats that dont exist. If that thing is in range for defeatist to go off one of 3 things has happened: 1. youve actually head smashed so much youve popped sitrus berry and are back under half from going so ham on the opposing lineup. good job there. 2. your opponent is being so bad that they cant take out something that makes the term "glass cannon" seem underwhelming. or 3. youre running sash set and about to do the endeavor cheese kills. Archeops deserves at least a thought of going to B rank for rock.

 

[Pistachio Fox]

Um... I might be kinda new to competitive play, but from what I've experimented with, I don't see why Kyurem (Not Kyurem-B... Just regular old Kyurem) is unranked for Mono Ice... It has some crazy wall-breaking power! it has decent speed, great offensive presence, and great STAB moves in Draco Meteor and Ice Beam, and coverage moves as well like Earth Power, Focus Blast, and Psychic. Not only that but it has respectable 125 / 90 / 90 bulk along with it. I don't know the metagame well enough to say exactly where it should go (My guess would be D or C. I mean, you gotta start somewhere!), but I still think that it makes no sense to have Kyurem unranked.

 

[Arash]

'snip'

I detailed Tyrantrum on the old thread here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/monotype-viability-rankings.3565113/#post-6445933. While I agree with Rhyperior to A for the reasons you stated, here are my thoughts on the other two:

- Archeops can be decent but is nowhere near as good as you make it out to be, primarily because of defeatist. Being weak to SR dooms this pokemon, as all the opponent has to do is switch to a tank, forcing you out and forcing you to take extra SR damage. Aerodactyl at least can switch in more than twice without being neutered. (BTW, max attack Mega-Aerodactyl with its theoretical Brave Bird does 99% minimum to defensive Mega-Venusaur, and power herb Archeops is just a terrible choice for your team as no mega-venusaur is going to stay in on Archeops when both poison and grass have much better choices to tank its moves.
That said, it is fast and strong (over 1/2 health), and can run special moves which may be a better use for it. It is still a worse Aerodactyl at the end of the day without special moves, so I think C-rank is suitable for Archeops.

- Tyrantrum while not as good as Rhyperior (hence Rhy goes to A) is better than you give it credit for. It doesn't have a good base speed for choice scarf, and this is why the scarf set is not optimal for Tyrantrum. Terrakion doesn't get Head Smash, and HS on Archeops is terrible for a mon who doesn't want to be under 1/2 health. Tyrantrum not only shoots these off recoil free, but can run a damage boosting item. Or you can run probably its most optimal set, double dance (HS, EQ, rock polish, hone claws) and boost the stats that you feel you'll need against the opponent.
Here are some calcs if you are not convinced:

+1 252+ Atk Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 219-258 (65.5 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Skarmory: 270-318 (80.8 - 95.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+6 (after belly drum) 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Tyrantrum: 273-322 (84 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 309-364 (84.8 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
**Rhyperior is slower and will get destroyed by w/e attack because it is quad weak to water

252+ Atk Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 160-190 (43.9 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Since you will outspeed Venu due to lack of speed EVs, even Mega-Venu will not want to switch into this thing.

This is not to mention, Tyrantrum does the DD set (w/ strong jaw) almost as good as mega-Ttar (same base speed, less power and bulk but you can run an item, you get stronger rock STAB and it doesn't eat your mega slot). It should be ranked higher than mega-Ttar, only because mega-Ttar prevents you from running mega-diancie/aggron and ruins your team otherwise.

Tyrantrum can also use strong jaw, air balloon and ice fang to take out select ground types, which are usually the bane of rock teams:

252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Iron Head vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Tyrantrum: 234-276 (72 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Tyrantrum Fire Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 334-394 (92.5 - 109.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

176 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Tyrantrum: 212-252 (65.2 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Tyrantrum Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Gliscor: 316-376 (89.2 - 106.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

While not as good as Rhyperior for your rock team, Tyrantrum does bring to the table things that Rhyperior cannot do, and deserves a B rank in my book.

Um... I might be kinda new to competitive play, but from what I've experimented with, I don't see why Kyurem (Not Kyurem-B... Just regular old Kyurem) is unranked for Mono Ice... It has some crazy wall-breaking power! it has decent speed, great offensive presence, and great STAB moves in Draco Meteor and Ice Beam, and coverage moves as well like Earth Power, Focus Blast, and Psychic. Not only that but it has respectable 125 / 90 / 90 bulk along with it. I don't know the metagame well enough to say exactly where it should go (My guess would be D or C. I mean, you gotta start somewhere!), but I still think that it makes no sense to have Kyurem unranked.

The problem with Kyurem isn't that it is a bad mon, but rather that there is no reason whatsoever to use it when Kyurem-B is available. This isn't like Infernape vs Emboar where they are similar but do different things; Kyurem-B literally does everything better than Kyurem with no downsides. Hence, Kyurem is unranked since every conceivable use for it you could come up with, Kyu-B does the same thing either equally effective or better.

Edit: more to the point, you cannot run both kyurem and kyurem-b on the same team. Since you are forced to choose only one, and since kyu-b does everything better...

 

[Vid]

Ranking Discussion #5

(Psychic) A--->S

(Normal) C--->B

(Flying) A--->B

(Dragon) C--->D

(Dark) C--->B
Bonus Discussion Point

(Rock) B--->C
Other Change(s)

(Rock) B--->A

(Flying) Unranked--->A

(Ice) Unranked--->D-This was mainly due to its niche on "Blizzard Spam" Ice Teams as it has slightly higher Special Attacker than Kyurem-B

 

[6ti]

- Medicham is (arguably) the best physical wallbreaker that psychic has. It also forms an offensive core with specs hoopa-u, and this core essentially beats the entire metagame. It's also a great dark and steel check. S

- HO Normal is still really good, despite being overshadowed by the standard bulky builds. Smeargle is the backbone of the entire team archetype as a designated lead, providing hazard support. No HO normal team can effectively function without using Smeargle. B

- Tyrantrum is actually a pretty versatile mon on rock, being able to use choice scarf, choice band, or dragon dance sets. It also has access to rock head + head smash with a relatively decent attack stat (121), which amounts to insane damage output. Yes, it has its flaws, like relying on a move with poor accuracy and having a bad base speed, but the offensive presence and wallbreaking potential of it outweighs these flaws imo. Stays in B
the rest i dont have enough experience with/don't have an opinion on it.

 

[Eien]

Mega Medicham to S makes too much sense not to support. A -> S

Loved the long-awaited ranking of Gliscor into A where it belongs. Gotta disagree with Gliscor to B as a result. Gliscor is an absolutely monster of a stallbreaker and wall for Flying. Chansey + Porygon2 can be very frustrating for the team to deal with, and Gliscor straight up just beats both of them. It also makes stall Water a complete joke as long as they don't run Keldeo or Manaphy. Importantly, it also almost just 6-0s Fairy. The only three Pokemon that can even hope to threaten Gliscor are Mega Gardevoir, Sylveon, and Choice Band Azumarill. Choice Band Azumarill is not common, and the two wallbreakers can be hit with Toxic and the rest of the team can wear them down. It's also a very reliable check to Landorus, as a set with Focus Blast and Rock Slide can be incredibly difficult to handle otherwise, with both Skarmory and Zapdos being in 2HKO range. This along with being almost impossible to break by Electric that lack Substitute + Calm Mind Raikou. Stays in A

I'm not sure why Umbreon should be moving up to B. Its main team archetype in stall Dark has been basically killed by the lack of Mega Sableye now. I've been using Umbreon in a mildly successful, fun team to Baton Pass Substitutes and Weakness Policy / Work Up boosts to the likes of Sharpedo, Hoopa-U, Honchkrow, and Mega Tyranitar, but honestly, I can't see Umbreon being better than Sharpedo or Honchkrow. Stays in C

Speaking of Dark B rank, I'd nominate Sharpedo for moving up to B. It's an absurdly good teammate for both Mega Tyranitar and Mega Houndoom, and the LO special set's use of Ice Beam and Hydro Pump is really appreciated for both of them. HO Dark that don't use Mega Sharpedo (I've been absolutely loving Mega Tyranitar HO recently) really benefit a lot from using Sharpedo for its very reliable sweeping.

 

[SubMindRaikou]

Cobalion C -> B

I've noticed this in the steel viability rankings and I think Cobalion should be moved from C to B rank

Cobalion provides a ton of support and from my personal experience with it it frees up a lot of moveslots. A short overview for people who haven't tried it out, you want to run at minimum 200 speed with a boosting nature to outspeed Lando I. Life Orb is the best item and most Cobalion ev to ohko lando with HP Ice with the remaining EVs in attack. Cobalion's useful movepool includes Stone Edge, Close Combat, Focus Blast, HP Ice, Volt Switch and steel STABs and it even gets niche moves that let it wallbreak, support or sweep in Taunt, Stealth Rock, Thunder Wave and Swords Dance. Depending on what it runs Cobalion can do a lot of things such as checking Lando and Garchomp with HP Ice, checking Charizard and Volcarona before a boost with stone edge, checking Hydreigon with your fighting STAB, setting and keeping rocks vs flying (focus blast and stone edge beats skarmory and zapdos) bug (focus blast or steel stab vs forretress and armaldo) fire (focus blast for torkoal and stone edge for charizard) and gaining momentum with volt switch. Cobalion can also do what it usually does on fighting in twaving switchins and taunting to prevent recovery, and more niche sets can use Swords Dance to attempt to sweep later in the game thanks to Cobalion amazing speed tier.

Comparing Cob to its fellow C ranks and the above B ranks I think it's clear where Cobalion should stand. Against the C ranks, Cobalion provides more to the steel user than they do.

Bronzong can work as a specially defensive answer to infernape and landorus but it's low attacking stats means that outside of se hits if you can't toxic them then they will set up on you.

Durant provides another speedy attacker that can at least check fighting types in general and help by providing bug stab but the existence of mega scizor kinda makes this bug irrelevant for the most part.

Lucario makes a nice sd or np sweeper but it's relatively low speed tier means that it's not that hard to revenge kill. It's coverage means that it also doesn't help that much in your weaker mus and only really helps you'r good mus.

Scizor is just a worse mega scizor except for the freed up mega slot and more immediate power but outside of that it doesn't offer much.

My point with comparing Cobalion to the other C ranks is to show that it doesn't suffer from just being outclassed like Durant and scizor, and it isn't a niche option for just 1 or 2 pokemon like bronzong for infernape and landorus i. It also helps more on your not so good mus instead of just excelling in your bad mus. Next would be comparing it to the b ranks (excluding JirachI since I'm pretty sure it's moving to a rank anyway since it's so great).

Empoleon with a scarf works wonders against ground and fire, and having a fast strong Ice move can really help against threats like dragons with ground and fire coverage.

Klefki provides screens, hazards and speed control which also helps steel monotypes a lot, giving setup sweepers an easier setup time and slowing down opponents to make way for the stronger slower attackers.

My point with comparing Cobalion with B ranks is that, while steel monotypes can function and do well without Cobalion or the B ranks, they can certainly help and the B rank pokemon aren't outclassed by other pokemon.

So while Cobalion isn't needed 100% of the time, it certainly is a good pokemon to use on steel teams. It's not outclassed in its roles like the other C rank pokemon and fits as a nice add on like the other B rank pokemon. It will help your team in checking major threats and can perform quite a few different roles depending on what your team needs, which is why I think Cobalion should be moved from C to B rank.

tl;dr Cobalion is just as good as the b ranks in making mus nicer but it isn't needed 100% of the time like the a or s ranks

bump .-.

other minor things
jolteon d > c as much as it pains me this thing hits harder than raikou or mega man with only bulk and coverage really holding it back

staravia normal unranked > d basically in the same boat as blissey trying to free up slots for raptor or chansey and otherwise outclassed

mega aggron steel unranked > d its just mega steelix with filter and they do their sets slightly differently and both p bad when compared to losing mega sciz

also p much agree with this week except glisc and umbreon but thats explained in above post from eien

(Flying) A--->B
Other Change(s)

(Flying) Unranked--->A

when u just got ranked and already ur moving down. feelsglisc

 

[iLlama]

- Mega Medicham is just the best Mega option on Psychic right now. It has too much wall-breaking potential with Sablenite gone to not use. A -> S

- Stall-breaker single-handedly shuts down way too many types for its position to change. Stays A

 

[Izaya]

- best wallbreaker in the game. Fits on so many psychic builds, especially after sable ban. S rank

- Best lead pokemon on HO teams since chansey offense is terrible. Access to a lot of support moves too. Pretty much what 6Ti said. B rank

- One of the best stallbreakers and fairy type checks on flying. A rank

- stall dark is a dead archetype, and umbreon is hard to fit on balanced dark teams. Don't have enough experience with dark and umbreon to make a good call but should stay in C imo.

- never seen a dragon team with it. idk what it even brings to the type. Outclassed by every common wallbreaker. D rank

 

[Dece1t]

Ranking Discussion #5

(Psychic) A--->S

(Normal) C--->B

(Flying) A--->B

(Dragon) C--->D

(Dark) C--->B
Bonus Discussion Point

(Rock) B--->C
Other Change(s)

(Rock) B--->A

(Flying) Unranked--->A

(Ice) Unranked--->D-This was mainly due to its niche on "Blizzard Spam" Ice Teams as it has slightly higher Special Attacker than Kyurem-B

Medicham, agreed. Now that Mega Sableye is gone it's once again extremely viable, and that much more dangerous.

Smeargle, disagree. To me it's very niche, and only really works on HO normal, but otherwise, nowhere else. As an SR setter it's outclassed by Chansey in terms of livability. While webs is nice, it's not necessarily needed on your typical normal normal team. That's why I feel C would be best for it, because outside being a hazard setter on generally only HO teams, it can't do anything else.

Gliscor, disagree. Can play multiple roles on Flying, and proves to be the most reliable Mega Diancie check. Also can act as a status absorber. A is a no brainer.

Haxorus, agree. While it is very strong, it's outclassed entirely as a wallbreaker, and a boosting sweeper. There's nothing that sets it apart from the likes of Dragonite, Kyurem B, Garchomp, ect.

Umbreon, disagree. Contrary to the popular opinion, Umbreon can make good use on Dark teams. It's unbearably bulky, and can provide a couple things that Mandibuzz and TTAR cant, Heal Bell (which is great to have now that Mega Sableye is gone), and Wish Passing (incredibly useful for ttar as a means to heal it). I'd actually keep it at B.

Tyrantrum, disagree. On Rock it does have some cool niches that sets it apart from other wallbreakers on Rock teams--neutrality to Water and Grass, and insanely strong STABS (with good coverage to back them up). Under Sticky Webs it's a lot harder to outspeed, and switching into it can be an incredibly difficult challenge. That in my book warrants it to stay B.

Lastly, I agree with Eien's nomination for Sharpedo. I did the same a little while back, idk why it was ignored entirely. It should be B ranked.

 

[terrors]

(Psychic)
Definitely think this deserves S rank. It is easily the best Mega available on psychic and its wallbreaking potential coupled with Hoopa U/Victini/Scarf Gardevoir is too good to ignore. Tears apart too many types on its own, barely has any switch ins throughout the metagame etc. I don't think I need to go further with this. S Rank.

(Normal)
Don't really have a solid opinion on this but HO Normal is pretty non existant and it has no place on balance. I'd keep it C Rank for now.

(Flying)
This is easily A Rank level. Too good as a stall breaker to ignore and helps in a large amount of matchups greatly. Pretty much what Eien said.

(Dragon)
D Rank I don't think Haxorus does anything that isn't already performed by other physical dragon types while KyuB has the ability to use BoltBeam coverage and break flying / dnite has multiscale

(Dark)
Stay at C eien summed this up pretty well too. Stall dark is non existant and it has no niche on regular dark teams besides taking up a slot that could be used by dark's variety of useful options.

(Rock)
Don't really have much experience with ttrum rock but I can see it has its niches as a semi decent cb wallbreaker / dd set up sweeper w/ recoil free head smashes with decent bulk. Stays at B.

 

[juleocesar]

(Rock) B--->A I believe Rhyperior allows Rock teams to handle common issues without necessarily having to run Mega-Aggron. Besides, I am pretty sure this has been brought up by Bitana (which's way more experienced than me at Rock so he could tell more about it) on the previous VR thread and I agree with most of his arguments. A rank.

C--->B Like most of the people above said, Umbreon only finds its utility in Stall Dark teams, which's even harder to pull off with the ban on Mega-Sableye. With its restricted usage and a lower prevalence of its playstyle, it also deserves a drop in VRs. C rank.

 

[Zmeeed]

(Dragon) C--->D

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/monotype-viability-rankings.3565113/page-6#post-6783154
inb4 incoming "it's too old even though it was in April, meta has changed and stuff" rant.

 

[Wanka]

The big thing with haxorus for me is the risk reward factor that a lot of dragons tend to have. If you are using haxorus then you aren't using a lati twin or you aren't using hydrei, kyu b, or even dragalge. It's speed tier for a frail set up sweeper is horrible so if you really want to use it you are better off just using CB or something. The set up sets would only work if your opponent has a stroke in the middle of the game. I don't even put it on the same level as goodra tbh and goodra is buns.

Medi and glisc were pretty ez noms for us so nothin much there. Umby seems fine where its at from some thoughts on here. We just wanted to see what u guys thought about it with dark affecting the meta differently.

I like smeargle but its role and limit to one and the most inferior archetype on normal merits a C rank for me. Offensive normal isn't necessarily bad but balance and fatter normal teams are more consistent right now.

Obviously rock is going to be a tricky type because not many use it and with tyrant we kind of have to theory mon a bit with it because it's kinda hard to be creative with rock teams and the same like 8 or 9 mons always get used. Grass and water neutrality is nice and it can act as a surprise scarfer but it's speed tier is horrendus so idk how well it would work as a sweeper. It has good bulk which helps make up for the speed but im still a bit unsure about it.

Good stuff.

 

[Alexis Breeze]

can we please remove Armaldo from S tier (Bug)??
Does it really define the metagame? Did you just lol reading the last question?
Yeah me too.
Let's move it back to A rank now

 

[Eien]

can we please remove Armaldo from S tier (Bug)??
Does it really define the metagame? Did you just lol reading the last question?
Yeah me too.
Let's move it back to A rank now

Armaldo really needs to be in a highlight post or something, this comes up time and time again. Read scp's post and wanka's post. Also, read the original nomination and the posts after it.

And just so my post has content: Quoted from the OP, "S only having Pokemon that can easily influence the game against a majority of type matchups..." Seeing as Armaldo is a premier Rapid Spinner on a type completely crippled by Stealth Rock, I would absolutely say Armaldo easily influences the game against a majority of type matchups. Armaldo is superior to Forretress for Bug teams because it's not completely and utterly passive. It has offensive presence and it can check Fire-types (something a Bug team really would want). Armaldo isn't vastly superior, but it's enough that we should definitely differentiate the two. Furthermore, the S rank Mega Pinsir and Volcarona are desperate for a Rapid Spinner's support, so their S rank status is contingent on the presence of an entry hazard remover on the team. Scizor might Defog, but when your team relies on Sticky Web for speed control and Scizor has better sets available, that just isn't competitive with Forretress or Armaldo. It deserves S for these reasons.

If you disagree, a real and thought-out post would probably be much more convincing than sarcastic shitposting.

 

[Alexis Breeze]

Armaldo really needs to be in a highlight post or something, this comes up time and time again. Read scp's post and wanka's post. Also, read the original nomination and the posts after it.

And just so my post has content: Quoted from the OP, "S only having Pokemon that can easily influence the game against a majority of type matchups..." Seeing as Armaldo is a premier Rapid Spinner on a type completely crippled by Stealth Rock, I would absolutely say Armaldo easily influences the game against a majority of type matchups. Armaldo is superior to Forretress for Bug teams because it's not completely and utterly passive. It has offensive presence and it can check Fire-types (something a Bug team really would want). Armaldo isn't vastly superior, but it's enough that we should definitely differentiate the two. Furthermore, the S rank Mega Pinsir and Volcarona are desperate for a Rapid Spinner's support, so their S rank status is contingent on the presence of an entry hazard remover on the team. Scizor might Defog, but when your team relies on Sticky Web for speed control and Scizor has better sets available, that just isn't competitive with Forretress or Armaldo. It deserves S for these reasons.

If you disagree, a real and thought-out post would probably be much more convincing than sarcastic shitposting.

I remember the original posts, even commented on those along with several others. Don't know what bug matches you have been watching, Armaldo is a nice mon but it's definitely not S rank. There is no "superior" spinner on Bug because it depends on the team you have. I got several replays playing with and against Armaldo where it doesn't spin because its bulk and typing are mediocre. Sure it helps versus fire and that's a trade off, not a sign of superiority. Armaldo dies to 90% of Fighting team whereas Forry can come in take a SE from Terrakion and spin, it is also not one shot by Medicham as opposed to Armaldo. I'm not pushing for Forry to S rank because A is totally fine, I think the original nomination was just disproportionately biased and lack of meta knowledge allowed it to get through. Juleo and others have expressed concern regarding certain types not getting right judgement calls because ppl in charge aren't very experienced/familiar with them. Wanka on PS mono chat said himself he blew it out of proportion at that time and it has just stayed the same cuz no one says anything about it. The whole idea of viability rankings is to keep it updated with meta trends and to generate constant discussion about the ranks not to have a framed picture to contemplate. The same post nominating Articuno to A rank on Flying early XY is not valid anymore, if you disagree then ask someone more experienced on bug about Armaldo rank NOW, not 6 months ago. I suggest Sabella for example.

 

[Confluxx [Old]]

I remember the original posts, even commented on those along with several others. Don't know what bug matches you have been watching, Armaldo is a nice mon but it's definitely not S rank. There is no "superior" spinner on Bug because it depends on the team you have. I got several replays playing with and against Armaldo where it doesn't spin because its bulk and typing are mediocre. Sure it helps versus fire and that's a trade off, not a sign of superiority. Armaldo dies to 90% of Fighting team whereas Forry can come in take a SE from Terrakion and spin, it is also not one shot by Medicham as opposed to Armaldo. I'm not pushing for Forry to S rank because A is totally fine, I think the original nomination was just disproportionately biased and lack of meta knowledge allowed it to get through. Juleo and others have expressed concern regarding certain types not getting right judgement calls because ppl in charge aren't very experienced/familiar with them. Wanka on PS mono chat said himself he blew it out of proportion at that time and it has just stayed the same cuz no one says anything about it. The whole idea of viability rankings is to keep it updated with meta trends and to generate constant discussion about the ranks not to have a framed picture to contemplate. The same post nominating Articuno to A rank on Flying early XY is not valid anymore, if you disagree then ask someone more experienced on bug about Armaldo rank NOW, not 6 months ago. I suggest Sabella for example.

There definitely is a superior spinner on Bug. I would explain how Armaldo is superior to Forretress but it's the same thing Wanka said, so you might want to read his post again. There is a Viability Rankings council for a reason, saying we lack experience is ridiculous. Wanka is a very experienced Bug user and Sabella hardly plays Monotype anymore, let alone use Bug, but for what it's worth he agrees with Armaldo being S Rank as well. The community is here to share their thoughts and opinions but at the end of the day it's the council that has the final say, and we all agree that Armaldo should be S Rank, move on.

 

[Kilgrave]

can we please remove Armaldo from S tier (Bug)??
Does it really define the metagame? Did you just lol reading the last question?
Yeah me too.
Let's move it back to A rank now

I'm sorry, but I can't just sit here and watch someone talk shit about Armaldo.

Armaldo is by far the best hazard remover Bug teams have. Having that ever useful Rapid Spin makes it valuable to Bug teams, with almost every mon on them being weak to rocks. The only other Rapid Spinner Bug teams have is Forretress, and I know from personal experience that it is unbelievably passive. Unlike Forretress, Armaldo has a good offensive presence, and it isn't weak to Fire and the ever popular Flying, which Bug teams can struggle with. It also has good bulk, despite a lacking speed. Armaldo is the best option for removing (and sometimes setting) hazards, making it a very valuable Pokemon for all Bug teams.

Unless you want to bore yourself to death with Forretress (once you are done setting the hazards, and providing that your opponent can't remove them, you'll be banging your head against the keyboard waiting for the thing to die), Armaldo is one of the most valuable Pokemon on Bug teams, mostly due to Rapid Spin, and it is needed for a successful Bug-type team.

 

[Sabella]

Id say bug cannot function without removal and maldo is easily the overall best remover with very good utility moves. Does it define the metagame no not at all but it is the best at its job for its type so for that id imagine itd have to be S bc otherwise bug as a type would p much not be able to function. I believe at least one of the spinners has to S for the reasoning just explained other wise bug would be mega dix

 

[Wanka]

There has been no meta shift that changes the fact that armaldo is the best pokemon to perform a job that makes an entire type viable on its own. I've already explained that armaldo being the premier mon at making a type viable voids any set definition for an S rank mon like 80 times already. We understand that it doesn't threaten nor wall significant portions of the meta, we aren't as stupid as you think we are.

I Use bug a shit ton myself and forry really only does anything in specific matchups whereas armaldos general utility lets it perform better against a wider variety of types. Cool, forry eases a matchup that is already completely winniable, that isn't enough to put it on the same level as arma. You are going to have to give me more than "it depends on the team you have" because a blind claim like that does you no good and my own personal opinion says that armaldo's utility makes it a better option than forry on the majority of bug teams. i'll pass on the overkill against fighting if it lets me handle types like fire, normal, ground, electric, flying etc. better. Forry does dick all in other matchups compared to maldo. It isn't terrible and there are bug teams that can work that have both of them on the same team at once but maldo just outclasses it 1 on 1 as a spinner 100%. Again, being the premier pokemon to perform a job that makes an ENTIRE type viable on its own sets it apart from that traditional definition.

I'm contemplating blacklisting arma because its been heavily questioned at least 3 times now and it's starting to get insulting at this point. Sorry if I rub off angry or pissed but arma's rank has wore on me.

 

[Arash]

I agree with all proposed changes except the following:

Tyrantrum- see my mini essay before the weekly topic post

Gliscor- stays at A, see everyone else's arguments

Kyurem-regular however needs to stay unranked on both ice and dragon though; it has 10 less base special attack than kyu-B, in exchange for 10 extra def and enough physical attack to where you can run physical coverage without any investment. It's not worth missing out on an S-rank mon because you want to use a terrible strategy that can be emulated by other Pokemon like glaceon or jynx

 

[iLlama]

Kyuren-regular however needs to stay unranked on both ice and dragon though; it has 10 less base special attack than kyu-B, in exchange for 10 extra def and enough physical attack to where you can run physical coverage without any investment. It's not worth missing out on an S-rank mon because you want to use a terrible strategy that can be emulated by other Pokemon like glaceon or jynx

That's a change that was made, not a present discussion issue, however, I would like to clear up some things about it. First, Kyurem has 10 more SpA than Kyu-B. The reason it is listed as D is because it is so team specific (Blizzard/Hail Spam) and it holds a different role than Kyu-B. Although it may be outclassed by Kyu-B in a way that is more necessary for Ice teams, that does not mean that it does not have a special use and viability on said teams.

 

[Arash]

That's a change that was made, not a present discussion issue, however, I would like to clear up some things about it. First, Kyurem has 10 more SpA than Kyu-B. The reason it is listed as D is because it is so team specific (Blizzard/Hail Spam) and it holds a different role than Kyu-B. Although it may be outclassed by Kyu-B in a way that is more necessary for Ice teams, that does not mean that it does not have a special use and viability on said teams.

That's the thing I'm not seeing though... Even if you decide to waste kyu-b and relegate him to blizz spammer, you trade 10 special attack for a massive attack increase. 10 base special is about 20 stat points difference assuming neutral nature.

In exchange for 20 less special attacking stat points, kyu-b gets its attack boosted to 376 with neutral nature. (For reference this one point higher than max attack adamant tyrantrum, and kyurem can achieve this with no investment)

If there are some clutch KOs that 10 extra base special attack gets you, please let me know. Otherwise, I would say that even for a dedicated blizz spam kyu-b, the ability to run physical coverage like fusion bolt (for water types) or stone edge (for fire types that are immune to earth power) outweighs the 10 base special attack boost in power

For these reasons, I believe that kyu-b is better than kyurem even in the role of dedicated blizzspammer

 

[Dece1t]

That's the thing I'm not seeing though... Even if you decide to waste kyu-b and relegate him to blizz spammer, you trade 10 special attack for a massive attack increase. 10 base special is about 20 stat points difference assuming neutral nature.

In exchange for 20 less special attacking stat points, kyu-b gets its attack boosted to 376 with neutral nature. (For reference this one point higher than max attack adamant tyrantrum, and kyurem can achieve this with no investment)

If there are some clutch KOs that 10 extra base special attack gets you, please let me know. Otherwise, I would say that even for a dedicated blizz spam kyu-b, the ability to run physical coverage like fusion bolt (for water types) or stone edge (for fire types that are immune to earth power) outweighs the 10 base special attack boost in power

As much as I agree with you, that does not mean regular Kyurem should not be ranked at all. Yes I agree it is outclassed, but, from its other attributes, I feel D is a good place for it, because it isn't unviable (as E rank and below implies). Kyurem is viable, period. If its viable, it gets a rank, no exceptions.