Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]

Status
Not open for further replies.

Freeroamer

The greatest story of them all.
is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor
Inscribe said:
Ground doesn't auto-lose VS Kyurem-white unless your opponent is a complete idiot and sacks him to something, since Gastrodon can freely switch into a Draco Meteor, but Choice Specs Draco is a 2HKO, and Choice Specs HP Grass OHKOes if you really wanna be that guy. If you run sets like Specs HP Grass,

>252+ SpA Turboblaze Kyurem-W Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 292-344 (68.5 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

>252+ SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem-W Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 432-512 (101.4 - 120.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

>252+ SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem-W Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 349-412 (81.9 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

>252+ SpA Turboblaze Kyurem-W Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 234-276 (54.9 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The thing is, if you run Choice Specs you lose the needed Choice Scarf that makes Kyurem-white thrive in this Metagame, even with Ice's shit supporting skills. You can always run Scarf HP Grass as well, but then you lose some of Kyurem-white's amazing coverage, same thing with any other HP Grass variant.
Your point here is kinda valid, but what can gastrodon do here, remember when i first switch in, I don't know what set it is, if its the specs set, i've just lost my gastrodon, if it's the Sub or SubRoost set I've just lost my gastrodon and probably another poke when they come in as nothing else can take a hit.

Anttyaz said:
I'm that guy who runs Adamant LO Outrage Kyurem-W tho..
252+ Atk Life Orb Turboblaze Kyurem-W Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gastrodon: 364-429 (85.4 - 100.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO (Serious tho, I run a LO Mixed Wallbreaker set)

Anyways yeah, it's actually pretty hard for a Ground user to auto lose, esp if they carry Swords Dance Iron Head Excadrill. Also, Toxic stall Gastrodon's just plain annoying (for Ice at least)
I'd be extremely hard pressed to set up a SD on anything on an ice team, unless on a predicted switch or if I'm using sashed Excadrill (ewww), and if I am sashed, the myriad of Ice Shard wielded by these teams means I will get no more than one KO, not to mention if it's one of the uncommon abomasnow teams my speed advantage gets robbed anyhow.

When I say auto-win, I don't mean in the talonflame sense where it literally needed one mon removing and then swept house, I mean that in the sense that if the opponent is clever with it, every time they bring it in, I'm forced into a position where i have to choose the next mon to sac. Playing like that will only wear your team down to the point where it may aswell be an auto-win anyway.

EDIT: Correction, I don't automatically lose my gastrodon if it is a Sub set, but there is nothing gastro can do to break the Sub, and eventually kyurem will get the crit it needs to break through it, coming out with the Sub too.
 
Last edited:
Lmao HP flying Keldeo who'd even run that?

I mean you'd have to be a real noob to run that right?

I mean what kind of idiot would run specs HP flying Keldeo?
I agree! HP Flying is weird :/ It's not like it hits anything important anyway kek

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 126-150 (34.6 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

thats a pretty effective set you have there smogon

but yeaaaaaa
what else is important that ur gonna hit with hp flying,,
tbh scald's burn chance is gonna do more than hp flying,, kek
so yeaaaaaaa

>BEFORE YOU NERDS DISS ON ME FOR USING SPDEF VENUSAUR, GIVE ME SOMETHING YOU NEED TO WALL WITH VENUSAUR THAT ISNT SPECIAL,,,,
 

DoW

formally Death on Wings
I agree! HP Flying is weird :/ It's not like it hits anything important anyway kek

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 126-150 (34.6 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

thats a pretty effective set you have there smogon

but yeaaaaaa
what else is important that ur gonna hit with hp flying,,
tbh scald's burn chance is gonna do more than hp flying,, kek
so yeaaaaaaa

>BEFORE YOU NERDS DISS ON ME FOR USING SPDEF VENUSAUR, GIVE ME SOMETHING YOU NEED TO WALL WITH VENUSAUR THAT ISNT SPECIAL,,,,
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 310-370 (85.1 - 101.6%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
KO chance means your physical, ice-neutral wall can't switch in.

Edit: also please calm down, I'd like a civil discussion rather than a shout-off <_<
 
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 310-370 (85.1 - 101.6%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
KO chance means your physical, ice-neutral wall can't switch in.
phys def isnt gonna switch on one either,,
but ferrothorn is a top switch-in anyways, but you'd have to sack something.
also, assuming cloyster has its sash broken, you dont even have to sacrifice ferro's hp,,
all you have to do is click technician mach punch
 

DoW

formally Death on Wings
phys def isnt gonna switch on one either,,
but ferrothorn is a top switch-in anyways, but you'd have to sack something.
also, assuming cloyster has its sash broken, you dont even have to sacrifice ferro's hp,,
all you have to do is click technician mach punch
"Assuming it's sash is broken"
>Implying that you're not a good enough player to bring it in on a physical attacker, which you really should. Which also allows you to use a better item like white herb or king's rock, js.
 
I completely agree, Mamoswine is a massive shit to grass. ice shard pretty much hits most pokemon on grass for super effective damage, and the ones it doesnt take a big chunk from life orb earthquake
"Assuming it's sash is broken"
>Implying that you're not a good enough player to bring it in on a physical attacker, which you really should. Which also allows you to use a better item like white herb or king's rock, js.
white herb or king's rock just leave him useless. he cant take any type of hit decently powered SE hit from a grass mon w/o focus sash anyways:

252+ Atk Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Breloom: 140-168 (53.6 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 312-375 (129.4 - 155.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 172-203 (71.3 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 172-203 (71.3 - 84.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
 
I agree! HP Flying is weird :/ It's not like it hits anything important anyway kek

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 126-150 (34.6 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

thats a pretty effective set you have there smogon

but yeaaaaaa
what else is important that ur gonna hit with hp flying,,
tbh scald's burn chance is gonna do more than hp flying,, kek
so yeaaaaaaa

>BEFORE YOU NERDS DISS ON ME FOR USING SPDEF VENUSAUR, GIVE ME SOMETHING YOU NEED TO WALL WITH VENUSAUR THAT ISNT SPECIAL,,,,
Ewww noob, here, let me start
- +2 Bug Bite Scizor (HP Fire, so you're not set up bait)
- Assorted Stone Edge / Close Combat Fighting mons
- Ice Punch
- V-Create Spam 252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 152-182 (41.7 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
- +6 Belly Drum Spam (Can't have those Aqua Jets doing too much amirite?)
- Knock Off Absorbtion from Bisharp
- Walls Mixed Garchomp
- Walls Sashed Mamoswine that have Super Power
- Live Mega Medicham's Zen Headbutt so you can status it etc.
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 272-324 (74.7 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Nubbb :]
 
Ewww noob, here, let me start
- +2 Bug Bite Scizor (HP Fire, so you're not set up bait)
- Assorted Stone Edge / Close Combat Fighting mons
- Ice Punch
- V-Create Spam 252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 152-182 (41.7 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
- +6 Belly Drum Spam (Can't have those Aqua Jets doing too much amirite?)
- Knock Off Absorbtion from Bisharp
- Walls Mixed Garchomp
- Walls Sashed Mamoswine that have Super Power
Nubbb :]
venusaur eats up stone edge anyways, cradily easily switches into vcreates, azu is on fairy and water, vs both of those monos you can get a free synthesis vs things like klefki or alomomola, ferro checks bisharp pretty gud imo, but bisharp is a big threat. mixed chomp<cradily, mamoswine is a big threat too

most of the shit ur gonna check is easily checked by your teammates, but i see where you're coming from.
 
venusaur eats up stone edge anyways, cradily easily switches into vcreates, azu is on fairy and water, vs both of those monos you can get a free synthesis vs things like klefki or alomomola, ferro checks bisharp pretty gud imo, but bisharp is a big threat. mixed chomp<cradily, mamoswine is a big threat too

most of the shit ur gonna check is easily checked by your teammates, but i see where you're coming from.
252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cradily: 252-297 (67 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery RIP Cradily, and most Cradily's run special so they would be able to sponge a Bug Buzz / Fire Move from Volcarona.
You're right about the Stone Edge part, I was thinking of Terrakion when I wrote that part. 252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 136-162 (37.3 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Inb4 crit)
Water def lets you get a free Synth off, unless if you're against in stuff like Greninja.
Staying in on stuff like Klefiki makes your paraed thus screwing you over and letting Togekiss have a field day. It also makes you outsped by Mega Mawile who can 1HKO you at +1 (Your set)
This is rare, but I've seen Taunt / Substitute variants of Bisharp. But lets say you have standard, I'd just set up to +3, I mean what's Gyro Ball and Power Whip going to do lol

But yeah Grass OP :D
 
A couple more things I need to add...
-Ice is the one type that couldn't care less about Shaymin-Sky, as it's promptly checked by Ice Shard, but from what I have seen everything else has a hard time dealing with it.
-Genesect is broken as fuck, whether it's in mono-bug or steel. Contrarily to popular belief, mono-bug is not a weak type, especially now that Talonflame is banned. In fact I'm pretty sure the guy on top of the ladder runs mono-bug.
-Mono-Fairy as a whole is pretty OP. Klefki and Whimsicott provide Screen/hazards/status support, Clefable is virtually unstoppable if you fail to Tuant it before it starts setting up (or you're running mono-steel) and Mawile is every bit as broken as it was in OU. Oh and there's also Azumarill either walling or sweeping half of the metagame.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DoW
A couple more things I need to add...
-Ice is the one type that couldn't care less about Shaymin-Sky, as it's promptly checked by Ice Shard, but from what I have seen everything else has a hard time dealing with it.
-Genesect is broken as fuck, whether it's in mono-bug or steel. Contrarily to popular belief, mono-bug is not a weak type, especially now that Talonflame is banned. In fact I'm pretty sure the guy on top of the ladder runs mono-bug.
-Mono-Fairy as a whole is pretty OP. Klefki and Whimsicott provide Screen/hazards/status support, Clefable is virtually unstoppable if you fail to Tuant it before it starts setting up (or you're running mono-steel) and Mawile is every bit as broken as it was in OU. Oh and there's also Azumarill either walling or sweeping half of the metagame.
I slightly disagree with some of your statements; Ice can care less about Shaymin-Sky, but it honestly has no switch-ins to it, and not everything in Mono-Ice has access to Ice shard, sadly. Also, Bug being a weak type was the opposite of popular belief, even before the Genesect unbanning. Bug was a pretty solid type, but now with access to the ever-so-powerful Genesect, it can run an even better Hyper Offensive team.

Mono-Fairy isn't really Overpowered at all, it can be played around, (thank god no Steel Absorb fairy LOL) but it does have immunites to one of its only weaknesses, Poison.Mawile- Mega can literally rip through poison on its own once Weezing is weakened to like,, ~50%, Weezing doesn't enjoy taking +2 Iron Heads... or any type of Iron Heads from Mawile-Mega, for that matter. I agree with the basic concept of that statement, (Fairy Monotypes are really strong) but I don't necessarily think they're Overpowered, Fairies definitely don't need any type of nerfing anytime soon.
 
Hi new to the forums here, but I was following this thread until it got overly repetitive with the whole talon flame ban or not to ban thing. So anyway I was wondering where I can find a complete banlist for the OU monotype on PS.

Also what is up with banning Talon Flame and unbanning Gennisect? ( I got bored of that conversation after about page 5 or so so i didn't finish reading everything about it. I was under the impression that it would end up being a complex ban, I'm fine with it being banned, just want to know the reasoning behind unbanning gennesict since i thought the whole point of unbanning it was due to talonflame in the first place. I also noticed that no one brought up banning power boosting items on talonflame which I thought would have been an obvious thing to discuss). Please do not mistake this as an attempt to get talon flame unbanned, I am fine with it being banned since I agree that it does make the meta extremely unbalanced in not only being able to nuke grass, bug, and fighting, but giving other teams a lot of trouble as well, I just want to know the reasoning behind this odd decision as I was under the impression that genesect was too unbalanced unless it is only allowed on steel teams even though they don't really need it.
 
Hi new to the forums here, but I was following this thread until it got overly repetitive with the whole talon flame ban or not to ban thing. So anyway I was wondering where I can find a complete banlist for the OU monotype on PS.

Also what is up with banning Talon Flame and unbanning Gennisect? ( I got bored of that conversation after about page 5 or so so i didn't finish reading everything about it. I was under the impression that it would end up being a complex ban, I'm fine with it being banned, just want to know the reasoning behind unbanning gennesict since i thought the whole point of unbanning it was due to talonflame in the first place. I also noticed that no one brought up banning power boosting items on talonflame which I thought would have been an obvious thing to discuss). Please do not mistake this as an attempt to get talon flame unbanned, I am fine with it being banned since I agree that it does make the meta extremely unbalanced in not only being able to nuke grass, bug, and fighting, but giving other teams a lot of trouble as well, I just want to know the reasoning behind this odd decision as I was under the impression that genesect was too unbalanced unless it is only allowed on steel teams even though they don't really need it.
Hello friends, today I want to discuss a major change with how Monotype shall function from now on. We have always simply followed the standard OU banlist and well, that obviously is catered for the OU metagame and not for monotype. And as you know, monotype is very different compared to OU. Below i've placed the current standard OU ban list.
Pokemon:
Aegislash
Arceus
Blaziken
Darkrai
Deoxys
Deoxys-Attack
Deoxys-Defense
Deoxys-Speed
Dialga
Genesect
Giratina
Giratina-O
Groudon
Ho-oh
Kyogre
Kyurem-W
Lugia
Mewtwo
Palkia
Rayquaza
Reshiram
Shaymin-S
Xerneas
Yveltal
Zekrom

Items:
Gengarite
Kangaskhanite
Lucarionite
Mawilite
Moves:
Double Team
Minimize
Swagger

As most people remember, the first step Monotype took to shifting away from the standard OU banlist was banning Talonflame. This was the first act that separated us and
with that in mind, I mentioned to Hollywood and haunter that we complete the transition from finally having our own ban list. The way I suggested going about this was implementing a new tiering system which comprises of two components:

1. Create a brand new global ban list (just like the one shown above, but catered to monotype).
2. List each type with its appropriate ban condition aka type ban (introduces complex bans, but it is the only way).

Our new current global ban list is as shown below: (i.e banned completely from Monotype)
Text in red signifies removal from the standard OU banlist, blue is addition.
Pokemon:
Aegislash
Arceus
Blaziken
Darkrai
Deoxys
Deoxys-Attack
Deoxys-Defense
Deoxys-Speed

Dialga
Genesect
Giratina
Giratina-O
Groudon
Ho-oh
Kyogre
Kyurem-W
Lugia
Mewtwo
Palkia
Rayquaza
Reshiram
Shaymin-S
Talonflame
Xerneas
Yveltal
Zekrom

Items:
Gengarite
Kangaskhanite
Lucarionite
Mawilite

Moves:
Double Team
Minimize
Swagger



So looking at above, basically Deoxys-D, Deoxys-S, Mawilite and Genesect have been freed, whilst Aegislash is no longer globally banned, but placed under a complex ban condition. How complex bans shall function from now on is by following the second component I mentioned above, which are type bans. The type bans as of now are follows:
Syntax: Type, Banlist

Normal: Nothing
Fighting: Nothing
Flying: Nothing
Poison: Nothing
Ground: Nothing
Rock: Nothing
Bug: Nothing
Ghost: Nothing
Steel: Aegislash
Fire: Nothing
Water: Damp Rock
Grass: Nothing
Electric: Nothing
Psychic: Nothing
Ice: Nothing
Dragon: Nothing
Dark: Nothing
Fairy: Nothing

Looking at that, it now tells you Aegislash cannot be used by Steel, but allowed to be used by Ghost. And as for Damp Rock, it cannot be used by water, but can be used by anything else.

tl;dr
Mawilite, Deoxys-S, Deoxys-D, Genesect have been globally unbanned for now. Aegislash has been type banned. And with all that said, the new ban list I propose for Monotype is as follows:

Global Pokemon Bans:
Arceus
Blaziken
Darkrai
Deoxys
Deoxys-Attack
Dialga
Giratina
Giratina-O
Groudon
Ho-oh
Kyogre
Lugia
Mewtwo
Palkia
Rayquaza
Reshiram
Talonflame
Xerneas
Yveltal
Zekrom

Global Item Bans:
Gengarite
Kangaskhanite
Lucarionite

Moves:
Double Team
Minimize
Swagger
Type-Only Bans:
Steel: Aegislash
Water: Damp Rock
Dragon: Kyurem-W
Flying: Shaymin-S

Let me know your thoughts on this and if it is confusing in any way. I'd appreciate all feedback :)
As for your Genesect question, we're not really sure why Nani Man or Hollywood decided to unban Genesect, but I'm guessing it was probably to test Genesect out to see how it fairs in the current Metagame and I think the answer is obvious; it fairs amazingly. I've said it once and I will say it again, I think that Genesect should be banned from Monotype completely, but if people have objections against that, then I can settle with banning Genesect from Mono-Steel and keeping it on Mono-Bug.
 
Thank you, I really think it should just be all around banned for OU monotype as well, I mean the whole premise for un-banning it originally was due to the meta being imbalanced for a specific type (namely bug). though I would be ok with a complex ban on it that would allow bugs to use it and not steel (since they don't really need it other than as a revenge killer and they already have scizor for that).
 
Thank you, I really think it should just be all around banned for OU monotype as well, I mean the whole premise for un-banning it originally was due to the meta being imbalanced for a specific type (namely bug). though I would be ok with a complex ban on it that would allow bugs to use it and not steel (since they don't really need it other than as a revenge killer and they already have scizor for that).
I disagree with your 'Steel doesn't need it' statement. Sure, Steel is still viable without it, but it wouldn't be able to destroy some things it can't really touch without Genesect. Honestly, Steel VS Grass would be a lot easier for the Grass user if Genesect wasn't around. I'm just trying to say that Steel kinda does need Genesect if it wants to stay as a top type.
 
this is true, though grass is not really seen too often, but again they have access to both heatran and scizor. granted scizor is normally only used for revenging and heatran is rather on the slow side and can have or does have trouble dealing with mega-venasaur due to its ability. I however have to disagree that steel needs it to stay on top if your only justification is because grass would have an easier time dealing with it. to make it competitively viable against a rarely used type while unbalancing the meta just doesn't seem like a viable justification to me.

also not trying to be a jerk or anything, but you kind of contradicted yourself with that last statement since you said that you think it should be banned from monotype completely, but would be ok with it being banned on steel and not being banned on bug.
 
It was such a shitty joke, you couldn't even tell it was one. Honestly, I thought you were serious when you said that too,, I kek'd on the inside.

Either way, his post was not useless, as it proves that any random lmfao hp flying keldeo will not destroy a Grass Mono, and it will not ultimately give you the 'advantage' as Crazy Horse says.

>sry for double post ;__;
Whether a joke is funny or not is dependent on the person's humor and thus makes it a subjective topic. If you thought it wasn't funny, that's like, your opinion man, but that doesn't mean you over analyze it, especially if you don't even understand what it was trying to make fun of. That said, there's no need for you to bash it in the rude manner you did just because you don't have a fucking sense of humor.

But if we must analyze something so trivial, the original point was that Water has ways to get over Grass, and that Venusaur-Mega doesn't make Grass auto-win by itself. However it in combination with Shaymin-S make the playing field tip greatly towards Grass, almost to the point where it's reminiscent of Talonflame V.S. Grass itself. The fact that one Pokemon can make a previously even Match an almost unfair one, on combination withone of the best Megas in the game, is why it should be Banned; not just because if Venusaur.

So I mean like, sure the Post had something to contribute to the discussion but th reason behind it was completely unrelated. That makes the contributionnothing more than a coincidence.

So that was the message behind the joke. If you were too narrow minded to get that, that's on you, but don't call something shitty just because you don't understand it. How about saying "it wasn't a good joke" or "It was unclear" instead of deeming something shitty next time? Shoot, according to that, the Tier's current state must also be shit.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DoW

scpinion

Life > Monotype... unfortunately :)
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Hello, I have been running a mono-ice team with Kyurem-W and I agree with what scpinion said: Kyurem-W is unhealthy to the metagame and should be banned.
While it plays very differently from Talonflame, the end result is the same: Kyu-W is extremely powerful against several types, therefore discouraging their use.
On top of that, besides Mono-Fairy, there is no monotype that is completely safe from it - even mono-steel, fire, rock and fighting, ice's main weaknesses, need to be extremely careful around it (mono-fairy has AV Azumarill and Sylveon as reliable answers).
Mono-ice still has issues against fighting (Scarf Kyu-W is almost mandatory here), fairy (if you give Clefable a chance to setup it can 6-0 the whole team by itself) and bug (the best bugs happen to have a secondary type that gives ice issues, such as Scizor, Volcarona and Genesect).
Everything else is either neutral or in ice's favor as long as Kyu-W is around.

Kyurem-W is very versatile, being able to run Scarf, LO and several Substitute variants. Choice Specs, its trademark set in ubers, is just overkill in this metagame so it's not needed. I personally ran a speedy and offensive Sub+3 attacks set until I hit 1500's on the ladder, then switched to Scarf. My team was the same as scpinion, except I ran LO Weavile instead of Cloyster, and my Rotom-F ran a SubSplit set with WoW and Discharge.

The types Kyurem-W wrecks aren't just the ones scpinion listed (dragon, poison, flying and ground), but also grass, electric and normal (requires Knock Off support for Chansey).
I have seen people going to great lenghts not to have their teams utterly dismantled by Kyu-W, including but not limited to: Eviolite Mantyke, Eviolite Lilleep with Mirror Coat , AV Armaldo, AV Victini, AV Walrein, Scarf Landorus-I (not a gimmick, but significantly less standard than LO sets), Specs Moonblast Whimsicott and best of all Focus Sash Ferrothorn. And despite these incredibly specialized checks Kyu-W was able to come on top most of the time.

Turboblaze is extremely powerful in Kyu-W's hands, as it can OHKO Sturdy mons like Skarmory and Forretress, damage Heatran with Fusion Flare (breaking its Balloon in the process) and bypass Levitate with Earth Power (mono-electric, mono-fire and mono-poison in particular are extremely reliant on that). Its Ice/Ground/Fire coverage not only is unresisted thanks to Turboblaze, but also happens to have incredible SE coverage (http://pokemondb.net/tools/type-coverage). Like its brother Kyu-B, it doesn't even need to run its Dragon STAB to be a killing machine.

It's also astonishingly bulky: even with minimal EV investiment in HP it can comfortably live powerful hits like Scizor's CB Bullet Punch, Victini's V-Create and Heatran's Flash Cannon. I distinctly remember Kyu-W managing to live M-Mawile and Bisharp's Sucker Punches, OHKOing both of them in the process.
I'm also leaving this gem here:
0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem-W: 336-396 (85.9 - 101.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
This is against Choice Scarf Kyurem-W.

When addressing Kyu-W's flaws, we need to be honest here: it's not Kyu-W that is severely flawed, it's the rest of the team that can't fully support it the same way other monotypes could. Unfortunately mono-ice lacks reliable Heal Bell, Wish, Healing Wish, Sleep and Baton Pass users; if it did Kyu-W would be completely unstoppable against every monotype.
Yet monoice has just enough support to let it become a huge threat against most of the metagame. Those replays above clearly demonstrates that mono-ice has turned into an entry hazard war with Kyu-W blasting holes whenever it gets the chance.

The question now here is: if a single pokemon can destroy several monotypes by itself but it's not strong enough to let that type (ice in this case) overcome its major weaknesses, can it still be considered broken?
I'm asking this because I have a hard time believing that Talonflame could easily sweep mono-rock, mono-water (Suicune, Rock/Water types, Rotom-W), mono-steel (Heatran), mono-fire (Heatran and Rotom-H) by itself, yet the fact grass, bug and fighting were almost completely helpless against it was reason enough to ban it.
The same can now be said for Kyu-W against grass, electric and the other types mentioned above. If we're going to treat both the same way then it's pretty clear to me that Kyu-W should be banned.
Thanks for the insightful post; couldn't agree with your statements any more!

I figured it would be able to wreck other types as well, but I had not faced those in particular. Grass was at the top of that list and it doesn't surprise me you have easily beaten such teams. When I finally come across one I'll post replays.

I played an electric team today and, as you said, it was a very one-sided matchup: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-159724769
In retrospect, I should have predicted manectric would break sub and just put it back up to continue my sweep. Oh well, hindsight is 20-20.

Finally, I was wondering if you would comment on the merits of each set (sub vs scarf) in more detail since you have a meaningful amount of experience with both? What prompted you to switch? Did it have anything to do w/ reaching the "high ladder"?

I could see the tactics w/ substitute being much less reliable against the top level players you encounter on a match to match basis in the 1500's, esp. if the sub set becomes dominant.
 
Thanks for the insightful post; couldn't agree with your statements any more!

I figured it would be able to wreck other types as well, but I had not faced those in particular. Grass was at the top of that list and it doesn't surprise me you have easily beaten such teams. When I finally come across one I'll post replays.

I played an electric team today and, as you said, it was a very one-sided matchup: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-159724769
In retrospect, I should have predicted manectric would break sub and just put it back up to continue my sweep. Oh well, hindsight is 20-20.

Finally, I was wondering if you would comment on the merits of each set (sub vs scarf) in more detail since you have a meaningful amount of experience with both? What prompted you to switch? Did it have anything to do w/ reaching the "high ladder"?

I could see the tactics w/ substitute being much less reliable against the top level players you encounter on a match to match basis in the 1500's, esp. if the sub set becomes dominant.
Once I hit the 1500's on the ladder the most common teams were steel (by a large margin), fighting, fire and flying. I'm going to comment Scarf vs Sub for each of them.

Fighting
Mono-fighting is the main reason I switched to Scarf: Mega Medicham and Keldeo in particular are extremely dangerous if left unchecked. Scarf Draco Meteor can OHKO both of them (Keldeo after one layer of Spikes) so it was my main insurance against those threats. I was running Focus Sash Froslass with TWave/Taunt/Spikes/DBond so she was a major annoyance for mono-fightning and was usually able to cripple 1/3 of the team, stop SR Infernape/Terrakion in their tracks and lay down hazards (you want at least 1 layer of Spikes to break Breloom and Infernape's sashes).
In hindsight, though, with enough paralysis support a Substitute set could have worked just as well. My Rotom-F was more or less deadweight since Discharge was unreliable for spreading paralysis.

Steel
Substitute is definitely the best set here. My set ran enough speed to outpace Jolly Lucario and by extension Excadrill, however Exca is usually Scarfed in mono-steel so that extra speed is pointless, since almost everything else is slower. Scarf is better for taking down Durant and non-Scarf Genesect, though they're not very common.
With Sub you can play mindgames against Bisharp and Mega Mawile, though if Kyu-W has enough health you can just outright OHKO both of them anyways since it's going to live those Sucker Punches.
Scarf also leaves you open in scenarios where Heatran and Skarmory are still around: Fusion Flare isn't powerful enough to 2HKO Heatran, plus it's probably going to carry an Air Balloon so using Earth Power on a scarfed set would kill your momentum.

Fire
This match is surprisingly not as one-sided as I thought. The main reason is because fire has to rely on either the awful Torkoal for spinning or the 4x rock-weak Charizard or Moltres for defogging.
I didn't have screens support so Sub didn't perform well here since everything in mono-fire could easily break it.
I used Focus Sash Endeavor+SR Mamoswine which was a major headache for mono-fire. Once you pop Heatran's Balloon and Charizard goes down (or Mega evolves into Charizard X), Scarf Kyu-W can just clean house with Earth Power spam since pretty much everything is OHKO'd after SR. Victini is likely to be scarfed but without sun it can't OHKO Kyurem:
252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem-W: 267-315 (68.2 - 80.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Flying
Sub is the best set here since it lets you setup on so many things it's not even funny. Paraflinch Togekiss, Zapdos and Skarmory are all common and perfect setup baits and pretty much everything besides Gyarados is 2HKO'd at worst. I usually lead with Kyu-W here because I need to threaten Skarmory with Turboblaze Fusion Flare on the first turn, though Froslass is also a good lead if she has Taunt.
I actually lost a match after I switched to Scarf because I encountered a specially bulky paraflinch Togekiss that managed to wall Kyu-W with repeated Roosts and then it just flinched me to death. I could have won if I kept my Rotom-F alive though.


I'm going to try running your bulky Sub Kyu-W with more paralysis support and see how it performs. The good news is that fire, fighting and steel usually do not carry clerics or dedicated status absorbers and the two types that are immune to TWave, electric and ground, are already in disadvantage against ice.


Here are a few replays... these are not in chronological order and my team went through severalc hanges before I settled for its current version.

Vs Fire
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-158678300
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-159322033
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-159351056

Vs Steel
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-158567702
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-159290317
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-159387756
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-159434690

Vs Fighting
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-159369677
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-159352931

Vs Flying
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-159402222

Vs Water
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-159038376

Vs Rock
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-159489852

Vs Bug
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-159428860

This one last replay is me losing against the guy on top of the ladder. It shows how Genesect's mere presence can be considered broken even though it wasn't sent out until the end.
 
Last edited:
I slightly disagree with some of your statements; Ice can care less about Shaymin-Sky, but it honestly has no switch-ins to it, and not everything in Mono-Ice has access to Ice shard, sadly. Also, Bug being a weak type was the opposite of popular belief, even before the Genesect unbanning. Bug was a pretty solid type, but now with access to the ever-so-powerful Genesect, it can run an even better Hyper Offensive team.

Mono-Fairy isn't really Overpowered at all, it can be played around, (thank god no Steel Absorb fairy LOL) but it does have immunites to one of its only weaknesses, Poison.Mawile- Mega can literally rip through poison on its own once Weezing is weakened to like,, ~50%, Weezing doesn't enjoy taking +2 Iron Heads... or any type of Iron Heads from Mawile-Mega, for that matter. I agree with the basic concept of that statement, (Fairy Monotypes are really strong) but I don't necessarily think they're Overpowered, Fairies definitely don't need any type of nerfing anytime soon.
When Aegislash was around, mono-bug just didn't stand a chance against steel. Volcarona was walled by Heatran and everything else in mono-bug just couldn't get past Aegislash.
It also had issues against water and fighting (Terrakion+Infernape can OHKO more or less everything in mono-bug) and fairy, all powerful and common types.
It's thanks to the recent bans coupled with Genesect's unban that mon-bug's viability has greatly increased.

You have a point about Skymin, though Kyu-W and Rotom-F are actually decent swtch-ins on the damn thing, so revenge killing it isn't the *only* option. Of course Skymin has the hax factor on its side, I'll give you that too.

As for fairy, I strongly believe it's OP in this metagame for two reasons:
-its weaknesses, steel and poison, are almost never ran without STAB, making them extremely predictable and easy to play around.
-fairy has better "role synergy" than most other types since it has top notch supporters, walls, wallbreakers and sweepers. It's this synergy that makes many types struggle against them, even without a type disadvantage. Hell even poison has a hard time dealing with Scarf Gardevoir+Mega Mawile, while Azumarill deals with fire. This leaves steel as the only truly bad match-up, and I suspect this is one of the main reasons it's so common.
 
Vs Bug
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-159428860

This one last replay is me losing against the guy on top of the ladder. It shows how Genesect's mere presence can be considered broken even though it wasn't sent out until the end.
Kaiser with Genesect isn't a proof he's broken, without Genesect Kaiser can beat you too.
This replay doesn't show that Genesect is broken imo, it's just a banal replay.
 
Whether a joke is funny or not is dependent on the person's humor and thus makes it a subjective topic. If you thought it wasn't funny, that's like, your opinion man, but that doesn't mean you over analyze it when there's really no content behind it other than for it to be humorous. That said, there's no need for you to bash it in the rude manner you did just because you don't have a fucking sense of humor.

But if we must analyze something so trivial, the original point was that Water has ways to get over Grass, and that Venusaur-Mega doesn't make Grass auto-win by itself. However it in combination with Shaymin-S make the playing field tip greatly towards Grass, almost to the point where it's reminiscent of Talonflame V.S. Grass itself. The fact that one Pokemon can make a previously even Match an almost unfair one, on combination withone of the best Megas in the game, is why it should be Banned; not just because if Venusaur.

So that was the message behind the joke. If you were too narrow minded to get that, that's on you, but don't call something shitty just because you don't understand it. How about saying "it wasn't a good joke" or "It was unclear" instead of deeming something shitty next time? Shoot, according to that, the Tier's current state must also be shit.
woah woah woah chill >_______<
It's not really reminiscent of Talonflame, honestly. Water has its ways of getting past Skymin, like Scarf Ninja, since no one really runs Scarf Skymin... but Sap Sipper Choice Band w/ Ice Punch is my favorite Azu set on Water. Support sets really don't pull the weight they need to, IMHO. (shoutout to floe for introducing me to this set)
Ice Punch is able to KO Shaymin-Sky:

252+ Atk Choice Band Azumarill Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin-S: 380-448 (111.4 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Shaymin-S Air Slash vs. 228 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 139-165 (34.9 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

>just hope you dont get flinched

I don't like Shaymin-sky for that reason... if 60% of its moves didnt flinch, I would've decided to keep it in this tier forever; however, that is not the case. :( Shaymin is pretty broken VS types like Water and Fighting, that can take one or two hits, but can't afford to get their team flinched to death by Scarf Shaymin, which IMO, is the best set, along with something like Specs or Leftovers, since Shaymin is easily worn down by Life Orb recoil, and when factoring in Stealth Rock, Shaymin gets worn down even quicker. With Shaymin being easily worn down, Grass pretty much loses its biggest threat.
(Sorry for calling your joke shitty, but you overreacted just a tiny bit...)
 
Personally, I think that it should be banned from both types. Why? Genesect kinda
woah woah woah chill >_______<
It's not really reminiscent of Talonflame, honestly. Water has its ways of getting past Skymin, like Scarf Ninja, since no one really runs Scarf Skymin... but Sap Sipper Choice Band w/ Ice Punch is my favorite Azu set on Water. Support sets really don't pull the weight they need to, IMHO. (shoutout to floe for introducing me to this set)
Ice Punch is able to KO Shaymin-Sky:

252+ Atk Choice Band Azumarill Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin-S: 380-448 (111.4 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Shaymin-S Air Slash vs. 228 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 139-165 (34.9 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

>just hope you dont get flinched

I don't like Shaymin-sky for that reason... if 60% of its moves didnt flinch, I would've decided to keep it in this tier forever; however, that is not the case. :( Shaymin is pretty broken VS types like Water and Fighting, that can take one or two hits, but can't afford to get their team flinched to death by Scarf Shaymin, which IMO, is the best set, along with something like Specs or Leftovers, since Shaymin is easily worn down by Life Orb recoil, and when factoring in Stealth Rock, Shaymin gets worn down even quicker. With Shaymin being easily worn down, Grass pretty much loses its biggest threat.
(Sorry for calling your joke shitty, but you overreacted just a tiny bit...)
If Skymin didn't flinch it wouldn't even be in Ubers lel but I see what you mean. The chances of someone flinching 3 times is fairly easy tho which makes it even broken :[
 

DoW

formally Death on Wings
Personally, I think that it should be banned from both types. Why? Genesect kinda

If Skymin didn't flinch it wouldn't even be in Ubers lel but I see what you mean. The chances of someone flinching 3 times is fairly easy tho which makes it even broken :[
It's only gotta flinch 2 times to beat Azu though, and only once to beat it on the switch.

I'd also like to point out that the chances of it flinching 4 times in a row is still higher than the chances of HJK missing once. But in any case, the chance of a flinch means it's very difficult to counter this thing.

I'd also like to point out that both scarf greninja and sap sipper azu (though mostly greninja) would pretty much never be used before the skymin unban and are pretty much unusable outside of trying to check it (though both still only really revenge kill in any case), which is a clear example in my opinion of overcentralisation, where team options are severely restricted by a single pokemon. Needless to say this reduces variety in viable teams, thus making it uncompetitive.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 2)

Top