which one?Ha ha! Nice, that's our battle!
which one?Ha ha! Nice, that's our battle!
Expand what I quoted. lol Damn Shaymin-S flinched me. Ha ha.which one?
What's wrong with your Rotom-W? Pinsir switches in on something, SDs while you switch to rotom-w, then rotom can take the ~60% from the return and either burn it or hit back with a tboltI'm not sure why but I haven't seen anyone say anything about Mega Pinsir. Talonflame was banned because it made types like grass and fighting useless, is Pinsir not capable of the same thing? A good number of types have no counter for it but I'll focus on the type I have the most experience with, water. I've been hopelessly trying to find a reliable answer to it with water and honestly I'm convinced it doesn't exist.
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 334-394 (84.7 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 382-450 (94.5 - 111.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 169-200 (55.5 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lanturn: 498-586 (109.6 - 129%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 388-458 (104.3 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This replay is a good example of what it's capable of: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-160914228
With the natural bulk to set up an SD on so many things, access to one of the most reliable spinners as a teammate in Forretress, and the power to not only break but OHKO some of the biggest walls in the tier, I say Pinsir is overpowered.
Like the replay shows you can't rely on will-o-wisp, and thunderbolt doesn't even OHKO it back: 4 SpA Rotom-W Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 222-264 (81.9 - 97.4%)What's wrong with your Rotom-W? Pinsir switches in on something, SDs while you switch to rotom-w, then rotom can take the ~60% from the return and either burn it or hit back with a tbolt
I'm not sure what the usage stats are but I think Pinsir is definitely common enough to where a ban would affect the metagame (I've been swept by it countless times on the ladder). Also, I'm not sure any phazers are capable of getting a roar off in the face of a +2 Return, and even if they do it's above average speed and powerful Quick Attack make it difficult to revenge kill as well.Pinsir's not been considered largely because it's not used that much. Bug has mega heracross and mega scizor to use, and generally does use one of these instead. They help more against bug's weaknesses than mega pinsir, which not only adds to the stealth rock weakness but also is best against grass, bug and fighting which aren't the big threats for bug teams. Moreover its stealth rock weakness is really its biggest downside, as any phazing after it's megavolved will leave it weak enough to be revenge killed by pretty much any priority.
That having been said, just because it isn't used much doesn't mean it doesn't need a ban (Mega gengar had relatively low usage in OU when gengarite was banned), and as we've seen with Talonflame Stealth Rock weakness isn't enough of a counter as bugs have plenty of defoggers.
Although a pinsirite ban wouldn't affect the metagame very much, I'm not opposed to a suspect test of it.
While I agree that Pinsir is very strong against the types that you mention, the difference between it and Talonflame is that the types that it runs over do have some usable checks to it.darkrai147 said:I'm not sure what the usage stats are but I think Pinsir is definitely common enough to where a ban would affect the metagame (I've been swept by it countless times on the ladder). Also, I'm not sure any phazers are capable of getting a roar off in the face of a +2 Return, and even if they do it's above average speed and powerful Quick Attack make it difficult to revenge kill as well.
Red Card Forretress with Red Card
Hmm, I hadn't considered how much difference the change from fire stab coverage to fighting coverage made. While grass is little better off:While I agree that Pinsir is very strong against the types that you mention, the difference between it and Talonflame is that the two types that it runs over do have some usable checks to it.
Fighting has access to Terrakion, who can take even a +2 Quick Attack and KO about 3 times over with Stone Edge. Cobalion can also do the same if you are really that scared of it and breloom's very popular sashed set can check it with Rock Tomb. Unlike the checks Bug and Grass had to Talonflame, these are all very commonly found on fighting teams and don't really require them overspecializing to try and beat it.
Bug is a little more difficult, Red Card Forretress with Red Card is a one time stop to it, Bulky Volcarona variants can take a Quick Attack if it's already at +1, and then destroy it with Fire STAB. Galvantula has the combination of Thunder / Thunder Wave to either KO it or cripple it, and there's stuff like bulky Armaldo that can take a hit and reply with 4x effective STAB.
While this is obviously difficult to deal with, I believe it falls into the same category as Greninja vs Ground and Breloom vs Water, in that they are undoubtedly difficult matchups, but through good play can be won.
The difference between Pinsir and Greninja/Breloom is there are multiple types with no switch ins. Countless threats have been banned this gen based on the idea that they have no true counters. That being said, just in case it's decided having checks enough, it should be noted some of checks you mentioned are also capable of checking Talonflame and it was still banned. Terrakion, Forretress, and Armaldo all check the bird in the same way you describe they check Pinsir, meaning having checks doesn't make something less banworthy. It can still destroy entire teams of several types with little effort.While I agree that Pinsir is very strong against the types that you mention, the difference between it and Talonflame is that the types that it runs over do have some usable checks to it.
Fighting has access to Terrakion, who can take even a +2 Quick Attack and KO about 3 times over with Stone Edge. Cobalion can also do the same if you are really that scared of it and breloom's very popular sashed set can check it with Rock Tomb. Unlike the checks Bug and Grass had to Talonflame, these are all very commonly found on fighting teams and don't really require them overspecializing to try and beat it.
Bug is a little more difficult, Red Card Forretress with Sturdy is a one time stop to it, Bulky Volcarona variants can take a Quick Attack if it's already at +1, and then destroy it with Fire STAB. Galvantula has the combination of Thunder / Thunder Wave to either KO it or cripple it, and there's stuff like bulky Armaldo that can take a hit and reply with 4x effective STAB.
While this is obviously difficult to deal with, I believe it falls into the same category as Greninja vs Ground and Breloom vs Water, in that they are undoubtedly difficult matchups, but through good play can be won.
didnt edit the hide tags part because it was meant to be an example. the ban list is from when i said it is, that is, when 'Global pokemon bans' begins. ill add in a massive header to make it more clearer. and for your benefit, here is the ban list:Hey guys, is the banlist completely up-to-date in post #393? Also, it kind of confused me because it said that Kyurem-W and Shaymin-S weren't removed from the OU banlist (they weren't in red text, at least), but I saw them under Type-Only bans.
Thanks!didnt edit the hide tags part because it was meant to be an example. the ban list is from when i said it is, that is, when 'Global pokemon bans' begins. ill add in a massive header to make it more clearer. and for your benefit, here is the ban list:
Global Pokemon Bans:
Arceus
Blaziken
Darkrai
Deoxys
Deoxys-Attack
Dialga
Giratina
Giratina-O
Groudon
Ho-oh
Kyogre
Lugia
Mewtwo
Palkia
Rayquaza
Reshiram
Talonflame
Xerneas
Yveltal
Zekrom
Global Item Bans:
Gengarite
Kangaskhanite
Lucarionite
Moves:
Double Team
Minimize
Swagger
Type-Only Bans:
Steel: Aegislash, Genesect
Water: Damp Rock
Dragon: Kyurem-W
Flying: Shaymin-S
I've already listed possible checks for it on flying.Kyurem-W by itself is not unstoppable, but its team mates can provide just enough support to make it extremely hard to walk around for several types (grass, flying, ground, electric, poison, dragon and even steel) unless they carry obscure checks such as Eviolite Mantyke (which is show in one of the replays above).
With almost half the metagame having 0 counters and very few shaky checks for this thing, one has to wonder if it's worth improving mono-ice if this is the price to pay.
The only check on flying is Mega Gyarados, nothing else switches in on ice beam. What you listed are revenge killers, please note the distinction as it makes a very big difference. I'd like to put a replay here, where in my opinion I outplayed my opponent, who I know quite well and found it relatively easy to work out what his next move would be, but still couldn't do anything about the Kyu-W despite building my team specifically to be able to beat it. If I counter-teamed a pokemon and outpredicted the opponent on a number of occasions, yet still couldn't beat the pokemon, something's wrong. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-165166563I've already listed possible checks for it on flying.
As for ground: Exca's a check, though it's OHKO'd by fusion flare and can be OHKO'd by earth power. Moreover, with ice beam doing 70% there's no way it'll win unless sand's up, which is something of a large requirement given abomasnow will be fighting the weather. Quag and Swampert are 2HKO'd by ice beam and can't do anything in return, and Scarfchomp obviously dies on the way in although it revenges. The obvious one you missed was Gastrodon, which hard walls it. However, Gastrodon also hard walls Kyogre so the fact it hard walls Kyu-W doesn't stop it from being broken. Moving on.Ground: Sand Rush Exca, Quagsire, Swampert, Scarfchomp
Electric: thundurus-I can cripple it, scarfed electivire (relying on speedtie but oh well), Protect Magnezone with SpD Investment to see if it's using earthpower or fusion flare, then make your move there,
Poison: Scarfed Drap, Scarfed Gengar, Sashed Nidoqueen, Tentacruel for ice beam, dragon pulse and fusion flare hits, You could test out assault vest Dragalge(however you spell it)
Dragon: Scarfmence, Scarfchomp, Scarfed Hydreigon, Sash Drud, Scarfed Latios (all these aren't uncommon)
Steel: Scizor the bane of ice types, Hazards Alone on steel teams cripple ice teams, Scarfed Jirachi isn't rare on steel, klefki for screens or to cripple with t-wave, Metagross with bullet punch could do decent damage, then revenge with someone else
There is a flaw in this argument. Any self-respecting mono-ice team has ways around Scizor, especially SD variants, since it's by far the most threatening opponent found in those teams.Steel: Now here's the funny thing. It was decided that ice should be buffed when it came up in conversation that +2 Mega Scizor simply destroys ice. The funny bit? Ice now has an absolute monster available to it, and yet it still dies to +2 Mega Scizor. Between easy hazards, decent revenge killers and the occasional annoyance like skarm stopping fusion flare and forcing Kyu-W to switch, steel easily beats ice like it's always done. And moreover, it's simple enough to get Mega Scizor to +2 Whether or not Kyu-W exists. Sure, a good ice player can beat a bad steel player now that Kyu-W's there, but at a high level of play the steel player will still beat the ice player whoever's better.
Sorry if I didn't make myself clear enough, but I was talking about if stealth rock was up (the situation was brought up in this thread a few pages back). At this point, none of these pokemon are capable of even revenge killing, and honestly it's extremely easy for steel to set up rocks against ice (sacrificing a pokemon to set rocks is fine if scizor can then sweep).There is a flaw in this argument. Any self-respecting mono-ice team has ways around Scizor, especially SD variants, since it's by far the most threatening opponent found in those teams.
Sash+Endeavor Mamoswine and Froslass can stop it early in the match, Avalugg can phaze it if it runs Roar (though it's taking massive damage from BP and it has 4MSS issues) and, most importantly, Rotom-F can set up a Reflect before burning it with WoW or outright KO it with HP Fire.
I realize the first three aren't solid checks, but Scizor isn't an auto-win against mono-ice by any means.