Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]

[Acast]

I'm in agreement with A Hunk regarding Mega Sableye. I think it's a similar situation to Aegislash. Mega Sableye is a huge threat on either Dark or Ghost teams, but Dark gets so much versatility while Ghost gets so little. Because of Mega Sableye, Ghost is arguably no longer the worst type. If we do suspect MSableye, it should only be for Dark imo. (This has nothing to do with the fact that I main the Ghost type. I honestly think Ghost needs the new mega, just like it needs Aegislash.)

 

[scpinion]

I want to echo DoW's plea for caution. The decisions we make on these suspects/bans are going to define the optimal playstyles in our metagame for months to come. OR/AS has presented us with amazingly powerful offensive and defensive threats that can easily centralize the metagame.

Make sure you're thinking about the broad picture, not just what 'mon is difficult for your favorite type(s), when discussing!!!

 

[Anttya]

The most broken mon atm is Mega Sableye and / or Mega Slowbro for their own reasons.
Mega Gallade (Fighting? + Psychic)

I personally feel like Mega Gallade's just as broken as Medicham. Gallade has a harder time Mega Evolving but it gains a unique 110 speed tier. (It outspeeds stuff like Garchomp, Lando-I, etc) Instead of High Jump Miss, it gets Close Combat. That means there won't be Protect predicts anymore, making Close Combat much safer to spam. Gallade gets 2 set up moves in the name of Swords Dance and Bulk Up letting it fufill a wallbreaker or a Sub Bulk Up set w/ Drain Punch and Wish. However, the biggest thing is that Gallade gets Knock Off, because of that, Doublade, Mew, Non Mega Slowbro, and other Bulky Psychics can't safely wall it.

Calcs: (Assuming you decided to set up on something)
+2 252 Atk Gallade Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 340-402 (86.2 - 102%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Gallade Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 364-430 (90 - 106.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (Assuming you don't run speed lol)
+2 252 Atk Gallade Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 238-280 (73.9 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
It loses the 2HKO on Skarm and Bulky Raptor, but it still keeps the 2HKO on defensive Lando-T.

Another thing is that it forces a lot of switches because of its high speed and typing making it extremely easy to set up.
I say maybe on Fighting because it's still walled by Sableye, and Fighting has no Heal Bell support while Psychic has all of the support it needs.

Tl;dr: Mega Gallade is just as broken as Medicham for different reasons. If we do a suspect test, then def on Psychic, and maybe Fighting.

Mega Sableye (Dark + Ghost?)

As soon as I saw its stats, its movepool and its ability I knew that it's going to be broken asf. A lot of Monos rely on phazing, status and Taunt to stop set up sweepers and Magic Bounce prevents any of that. Another way to beat bulky set up sweepers is by Trick, but Sableye's immune to it. Sableye is also immune to Seismic Toss so you're forced to attack it normally, and since Sableye's a special attacker, Foul Play doesn't affect it. Dark STAB is also amazing in the current metagame since it hits everything neutrally except for Fighting, Dark, and Fairy. Fighting types are generally frail, and it's extremely easy to start setting up on them. Will-o-Wisp cripples them even more. Dark types can't do anything to set up sweepers since they rely on Sableye's Taunt / Will-o-wisp, and Mandibuzz's Foul Play / Whirlwind. Unless if you start running Scrappy Circle Throw Pangoro you're pretty much screwed once it gets to +3.

252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Sableye: 160-188 (52.6 - 61.8%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (You see Sableye, and you immediately switch into LO Hydreigon)

Fairies are the only ones safe from Sableye's wrath, but we all can't run fairies just to stop Mega Sableye. It'd be too centralizing. Dark has access to Gunk Shot Greninja and Jolly Bisharp while Ghost has Aegislash + Doublade.

If Sableye's going to suspected, I feel like Dark would be the most Op with Mega Sableye. Dark is already good, and we've just given them a new toy to play with. I'm a little unsure about Ghost, I feel like they need it, but if we give it to them then it becomes broken. I can see a lot of top tier players using Ghost just to abuse its brokenness.

Tl;dr: Suspect Mega Sableye for Dark and maybe Ghost.

Mega Slowbro (Psychic + Water)

Mega Slowbro is aids once it gets to +2 and that's pretty easy to do on both types. Both types have their own Heal Beller (Mew and Lanturn), although one lacks reliable recovery, it's extremely easy to get it in, set up with its titanic defenses and types such as Fighting, Steel, Ice, and Dragon will have an extremely hard time taking it down (if they can). Slack Off provides reliable recovery, and it has 16 PP which makes PP stalling a lot harder. The worst thing is that it's immune to Knock Off and a majority of Dark types only carry that as their physical STAB move (other than Sucker Punch). Taunt is an option, but Slowbro hits pretty hard, even when unboosted and uninvested (130 SpAtk), and Scald has a chance to burn making it extremely risky to switch stuff in.

252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 127-151 (32.2 - 38.3%) -- 95.2% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 145-172 (53.3 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 154-183 (39 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 152-182 (38.5 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Slowbro Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 172-204 (51.9 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Turboblaze Kyurem-W Draco Meteor vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 208-246 (52.7 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO <- Smh

Since it has Shell Armor, there's not going to be any crits :(
Slowbro can also function well w/o megaing, it makes a great pivot (regenerator) until you find the perfect time to Mega Evolve and set up. STAB Psychic / Psyshock gets past Mega Venu and Scald kills everything. If you don't run Heal Bell support there's always rest. Slowbro conveniently walls almost every mega out there.

Tl;dr: Suspect Mega Slowbro for both Psychic and Water.

Edit: Since I have more time, I'll probs ladder on my Sableye team later.

 

[DEG]

Although Greninja gets 2 new moves in ORAS, it still suffers the 4 moves Syndrome.
Facing Greninja is different than using it, the users that face Greninja thinks it's so damn good but the truth it's hard to use it.
Without Greninja Dark has a mediocre special offense, the other notable good Special Attacker is Hydreigon with good coverage moves.
Using Scarfninja removes from it's power, and give it more speed but using Specs/Orbedninja Boost it's Special attack and make it slower compared as other scarf users.

If Greninja gets banned on dark:

• Team would be Vulnerable against Voltswitching Thundurus
• Team Would get destroyed by d-dance mega altaria, or Hyper Voice Variant.
• Team would lack the power to defeat flying, T-tar can't do the work alone we all know that. Specially
• Team would suffer from Focus Blast Charizard Y + Fire Offense. We also know that T-tar can't do the work alone.
• Team would suffer vs Disadvantage more.
• Team would also have a hard time vs ground

If Greninja gets banned on water:

• Don't think it would matter, water has good coverage against most types. Would only suffer vs Psychic Maybe specially MegaBro.

ScarfNinja is relatively weak to it's Orbed Variant yet still offers to dark Amazing Special Offense Presence but it's can get walled by lot of things.
252 SpA Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 144-169 (40 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Giving Zard X a safe switch in, it can roost off the damage and set up.

252 SpA Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 134-158 (45.1 - 53.1%) -- 25% chance to 2HKO
Doesn't do much Damage but yea it can 2OHKO unless Charizard Y would run Spdf evs.

Let's check the Orbed set:

• Vulnerable to Speedy Scarfers as it's fragile
• Does lot of Damage compared it's Scarf Set.

Not so many pokemon other than Walls can safely switch in to Orbed Greninja, yet with good predict Orbed greninja isn't a problem. Fairy can predict the gunk shot and proceed to Klefki set up screens to reduce the damage. Water tends to run Physical Greninja the most so Psychic would have no problem vs a physical greninja.

Dark Would run on Greninja: Surf/Hydro, Ice Beam, Gunk Shot, xtrasensory to deal with it's weakness.

If you're too lazy to ready: Suspect Greninja on Water
#SaveGreninja on Dark

I'm gonna probably put more arguments here and discuss more Megas, Was tired when i wrote this.

#SaveGreninja4DarkArmy

 

[Croven]

Flying: You can do nothing, no switchins to Orbed Ninja (Unless you run Articuno but good luck with that 4x weakness to rocks). Taking down Orb-ed ninja is using a faster scarf, but if it's scarf, gg.


tl;dr Although Greninja's frail, it's wallbreaking capability cannot be overlooked and creates no switchins for many types. I suggest suspect testing this.

Buddy, might wanna get out of your generic mindset and start running different junk. Mix defenses Gyarados can handle it pretty well while also taking on Mega Medicham and other things I'm not thinking of atm. But yeah, it's kinda OP, and I just heard that it's getting a suspect, so I'll drop this topic now. Basically, stop being generic Arifeen !

Ok, so I can't go into a really long post atm, (my hands are fucking freezing I had to go into the snow with like the thinnest sweatshirt alive oml stop this) but I'll list the main mons that I think could deserve a suspect test.

Mega Slowbro: LOL I remember when we all thought Shell Armor was a waste. And now it's Slowbro's ace, almost. Ant pretty much covered all areas, so I don't really need to go in depth with this. One thing I want to point out is that this shit has the same Special Attack as goddamn Latios. Smh.

Mega Gallade: This is an interesting topic. Many players were calling for bans for Mega Medicham, as it completely ran through Normal, Rock, Steel, and Ice, which is an extreme amount of types to almost 6-0. Then Gallade appeared, and it pretty much totally outclassed M-Medi by a mile. Better Speed, a great setup move in SD, great coverage in Fighting, Psychic, Dark attacks, and a lot better bulk; actually being able to take a couple hits is a help. To be honest, I'm not entirely sure what to do here. Will Gallade be as broken as Medicham, or will Medicham's immediate power and ability to fire off HJK's with no setup prove to be more threatening than Gallade's points? I suggest that we go with what DoW said and wait this one out. Give it a few weeks or so and see just how it fares. I really can't theorymon this, I might just make a Fighting or Psychic mono (something different than Flying omg!!!) to see how it works.

Mega Sableye I will test very soon (right after I finish this post), and I will see if I agree or disagree with the statements provided. Also, after talking in chat, is Greninja really being suspected now? I have some arguments I could post, since I'm not certain whether it should be banned. But yeah, those are my points for now, take them with a grain of salt, as I haven't used anything much other than Flying for a while, (getting into Dark now) and haven't faced a well played Slowbro or Gallade since ORAS came out :I

EDIT: OK, so yeah now I see that literally every ban that we could make atm would just keep Flying far above everything else. I've heard discussions about suspecting Zapdos or Zard X, and even Skarmory, and out of these 3, Zard X seems to be the best if we would like to nerf Flying but keep it a good type to use. Zapdos is kinda needed as the reliable Defogger that prevents Flying from auto losing to Rocks. There are other options, but it is far easier for any decent player to pressure those than Zapdos. I honestly just don't see Skarmory as OP enough to be banned, I don't even use it on any of my better teams, and I face no consequences. Zard X, however, provides an extremely reliable win condition that can run through many teams, and it is also incredibly tough to break through if you decide to use the bulkier set. Overall, it provides too much offensive and defensive synergy on Flying, so I can definitely see a potential suspect for Zard X. I'm curious to see if this will fling Flying far lower than we want, not affect it at all, or create the desired outcome.

 

[Freeroamer]

Well after looking at quite a few people's thoughts on suspects, and many of them are good arguments, I'm a little surprised that no-one has suggested a single suspect for a Flying type yet apart from the argument over Lando-i, who is far from a staple on these teams. Flying is without a doubt the most used type in the metagame and the most consistent to win with thanks to the incredible array of options it provides allowing it to deal with almost any threat, and ironically a lot of the suggestions I've seen for suspects in this thread would only strengthen that position such as Greninja and Kyurem-W. While I'm not arguing that these threats are potentially broken, in my eyes it goes against the ideal of metagame balance where we try and make every type viable, because if there is one type that generates so much usage and has a consistently higher winrate than any other then we are still far from a balanced metagame. That brings us to the question, what actually makes Flying so good? The general consensus on this seems to be it's incredible array of options, providing excellent synergy between it's team members allowing it to deal with many a threat, even those that on paper would have a type advantage. Because of this, it is difficult to pinpoint one member that sets Flying apart, but if there is such a pokemon, I believe it could be Mega Charizard X, who supplements the team incredibly well by bringing to the table an Electric resistance and an Ice neutrality, allied with a STAB combination that allows it to hit almost every Ice type pokemon for supereffective damage. That typing is so incredibly valuable for Flying that the only set I consider when making a Flying team these days is the specially defensive set, as the team support it provides is just incredible, and allied with a reliable defogger(this is flying) it can do so much work in pretty much any matchup. Even it's weakness to Ground is covered by the fact that every single one of it's teammates is immune to said moves.

What would Flying teams look like without Zard X? I've seen many a successful team utilising Mega Gyarados but it certainly makes Flying harder to run, as adding Gyara does nothing to solve your chronic Electric weakness so it would be interesting to see what variations were created.

Would it nerf Flying too much? I'm certain that the answer is no for this one, I feel it'd bring Flying back down to earth with all the other types.

 

[RedsCharizard]

I feel that I need to bring up the case of the Mawilite re-ban.

So, the Mawilite has been brought back to the monotype metagame, but I feel that this is a huge mistake. While having few checks in OU, it has even less in monotype. The only monotypes that can check it is steel, thanks to the play rough resists, and thanks to them having naturally high defense, Sucker Punch probably won't KO, even after a +2. Otherwise, the rest of the 17 monotypes get shredded by Sucker Punch by a +2 Mawile, which can be easy to set up, depending on the situation. If a Klefki on a fairy monotype sets up dual screens, Mawile is nearly guaranteed to live a hit (and Intimidate means that physical attackers don't stand a chance), set up a Swords Dance or maybe even a Substitute, and sweep your attackers with Sucker Punch and your walls with Play Rough (most walls won't outspeed Mawile, and those that will, won't KO it unless it's at low health. Also, the player DOES have the option of spamming a set-up move, but at that point, it just becomes a 50-50, and therefore, something completely reliant on luck. You just have to hope that when you attack, Mawile won't Sucker Punch and when you set up, Mawile won't use Play Rough. Substitute counters are viable, but I can't imagine every one of my attackers running Substitute simply for fairy teams.

I once heard that the Mawilite is unbanned on Fairy because it lacks physical attackers. While its only other viable physical attacker is Azumarill, I feel that it's a really poor reason to unban something that deserves its place in ubers.

 

[Tyke]

Mega sableye's strength is that it rips through balanced teams and stall teams with ease. But....

Mega Sableye's Weak Points
A) it isn't as strong as a physical wall as you'd think. Losing priority recover and will o wisp means it can't mitigate the damage from physical attackers as effectively as it needs to.

B) It's slow speed means it is vulnerable to substitute set ups, for example sub/dragon dance gyarados or sub/dance mega Altaria or sub/calm mind keldeo.

C) 85 spA and dark pulse is not very strong, and can be walled by quite a lot. Even if sableye spams calm mind. Other calm mind sweepers can set up on mega sableye as well.


Idk, like I said it warrants a suspect for dark, but for ghost....

Why Ghost Should Keep Mega Sableye
A) Ghost need the stallbreaker and hazard control. They now have something to switch into hazards avoiding rocks and status. This indirectly helps other ghosts like chandelure, who can be crippled through rocks.

B) Ghost has a switch in for dark type attacks. Sadly, it can't wall everything so dark pulse spam from a specs hydreigon or something will still single handed destroy and entire ghost core.


Idk, just Mai thoughts c:

 

[Tyke]

Well after looking at quite a few people's thoughts on suspects, and many of them are good arguments, I'm a little surprised that no-one has suggested a single suspect for a Flying type yet apart from the argument over Lando-i, who is far from a staple on these teams. Flying is without a doubt the most used type in the metagame and the most consistent to win with thanks to the incredible array of options it provides allowing it to deal with almost any threat, and ironically a lot of the suggestions I've seen for suspects in this thread would only strengthen that position such as Greninja and Kyurem-W. While I'm not arguing that these threats are potentially broken, in my eyes it goes against the ideal of metagame balance where we try and make every type viable, because if there is one type that generates so much usage and has a consistently higher winrate than any other then we are still far from a balanced metagame. That brings us to the question, what actually makes Flying so good? The general consensus on this seems to be it's incredible array of options, providing excellent synergy between it's team members allowing it to deal with many a threat, even those that on paper would have a type advantage. Because of this, it is difficult to pinpoint one member that sets Flying apart, but if there is such a pokemon, I believe it could be Mega Charizard X, who supplements the team incredibly well by bringing to the table an Electric resistance and an Ice neutrality, allied with a STAB combination that allows it to hit almost every Ice type pokemon for supereffective damage. That typing is so incredibly valuable for Flying that the only set I consider when making a Flying team these days is the specially defensive set, as the team support it provides is just incredible, and allied with a reliable defogger(this is flying) it can do so much work in pretty much any matchup. Even it's weakness to Ground is covered by the fact that every single one of it's teammates is immune to said moves.

What would Flying teams look like without Zard X? I've seen many a successful team utilising Mega Gyarados but it certainly makes Flying harder to run, as adding Gyara does nothing to solve your chronic Electric weakness so it would be interesting to see what variations were created.

Would it nerf Flying too much? I'm certain that the answer is no for this one, I feel it'd bring Flying back down to earth with all the other types.

Well, I imagine if forced not to use Zard-x, flying users would use mega-Altaria.

 

[Croven]

Ok, so me and Clearly have decided to write up a post about Mega Sableye. To be honest, we can see why people think M-Eye is broken, but we believe that this is just people seeing something good released and failing to be able to adapt to it, as there are several ways for different monotypes to deal with it. And yeah, here we go. Remember, this is just us theorymonning for half of the monos with the aid of the calc, I'm pretty sure an experienced player in the type can create far better answers to it.


Flying: Flying has answers to everything, this isn't hard. Altaria, NP Togekiss, which I've been using to some solid success, DD Zard X, and DD Resttalk M-Gyara, which actually isn't bad and it will be what I use if Zard X gets banned.

Electric: A bit harder, as Electric isn't a top tier type, so the checks won't be as solid. CM Sub Raikou can deal with it somewhat well, and this is actually a set that has been run for a while now, to deal with M-Venu. Some calcs:

+6 0 SpA Sableye Shadow Ball vs. +5 4 HP / 0 SpD Raikou: 87-103 (27 - 31.9%) -- 42.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

In a worse case scenario where you sent out Raikou after Sableye came in. Does a decent amount of damage, but Raikou outspeeds and does similar damage back.

+5 252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. +6 252 HP / 0 SpD Sableye: 105-124 (34.5 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Yes, Sableye does have solid recovery, but as it recovers, it's just giving chances for crits and it'll have to recover pretty often, and Leftovers will kick in and help you out. Don't forget Pressure, and that Sableye is limited to 12 Shadow Balls if it didn't use any before. Not a great counter, but you can't counter everything with one type, and Electric is a lackluster type anyway, so you'll have to use a bit more playing and skill to deal with this thing. CroKou anybody?

Also, NP Thundurus can be used to deal with it as well, boosting up to higher levels really fast, and threatening with a powerful Tbolt.

Ground: Again, a CM user like CM Landorus can be used to stop Sableye.

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Sableye: 153-181 (50.3 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 0 SpA Sableye Shadow Ball vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 121-144 (37.9 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

And if Sableye goes for the attack or WoW at any point, you are now at its level of boosts and can easily 2HKO it. Also, I've seen Subsitute Excadrill run on Ground, and if you are really having trouble with it, then you shouldn't hesitate to use it, as Sub Exca can also deal with Stallbreaker Mew, which a lot of Ground monos get shat on by.

252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Sableye: 146-173 (48 - 56.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

Again, LO Sub can wear you down quickly, but I've used it a bit, and I've seen it used, so it's not that bad. You can also go for SD if you're SD LO as even after the burn, if you reach +2, you will 2HKO Sableye.

Quagsire can also start up a stall war with Unaware and Stockpile if you really want to, and can help wear down Sableye with Scald burns.

Psychic: This is easy, Banded Victini and Gardevoir pretty much show Sableye who's boss and beat it. Not much else to say.

Steel: Steel actually has a harder time beating Sableye than most other monos. Mawile can OHKO Sableye easily, but if you don't run it, then it could be annoying. Burning it with Heatran can be really beneficial in wearing it down, as then M-Meta and other physical attackers can wear it down. Don't forget Sub SD Bisharp, 10/10 set imo. Steel has a hard time, but this is just a good matchup Sableye has, it's not unbeatable at all when using Steel, just another threat to look out for.

Water: Water has everything, not much Water can't do. CroCune beats it easily with Pressure, Azumarill bops it with Play Rough, and some people run Mold Breaker Taunt M-Dos too, so yeah. Also, they don't mind Burns as much since Lanturn is an incredibly reliable heal beller. Tentacruel can also use Haze and Acid Spray.

Poison: Absolutely zero experience here, so all I can think of is Tentacruel with Acid Spray and Haze, as previously mentioned. If anybody experienced at Poison wants to help out here, feel free, I have seen very little Poison matches and have never touched a Poison mono :I

Fairy: Do we really need to discuss this, not too much to say, Mawile, Togekiss, Diancie, Azu, Clefable, almost every Fairy every, etc etc

Fire: This is also easy, Mega Char Y, Victini, Darmanitan, basically any strong physical attacker since you can't get WoW'ed. Char X if you're feeling real

Dragon: Not too hard, Altaria, random Lum Berry mon, SD or DD setup mons even if they lack Lum Berry, etc. Mostly Altaria can just screw with Dark though, so yeah.

Grass: Skymin is your best shot here. Seed Flare's chance to lower SpDef by 2 is pretty solid, and then flinchhax can work if all else fails. But Skymin really just is a good check to Sableye in general.

Normal: Lopunny is our lord and savior. Lopunny's Scrappy just breaks right through Sableye and blasts it to all hell, not giving a shit about boosts, maybe giving a shit about burns but this is the type with eh lord and cleric Chansey, so meh. Lopunny stops it cold, and this is pretty much the mega you will be using anyway.

Ghost: Eh, this is one of the types that Sableye just completely shuts down. I mean, Dark shut down Ghost anyways, since Ghost wasn't a great type to begin with, so I guess it's not that bad. All that I can think of atm is setting up with their own Sableye first and going for the crit I guess.

Bug: Volcarona is such a bitch oml. I've been trying to get sweeps with Sableye when I face Bug, but Volcarona eats up all the hits I dish out, and beats Sableye 1v1 easily. Also, Sableye actually prefers to say in regular form against Bug anyway, priority burns can be clutch. Point is, Volc can shut down any Sableye sweep (even with Rocks up. Trust me, I've tried) And if you're feeling really real, run Guts Heracross like a boss :]

Ice: Ehhhh, another one that can't do much to Sableye. All I can think of is Specs Modest KyuW (which makes Ice weaker to every other type anyway)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem-W Ice Beam vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Sableye: 175-207 (57.5 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Also, if you really hate Sableye, just run Lum Berry Shell Smash Cloyster. Be real as fuck and do it. Or you can run a bulky set and use Turboblaze Toxic (Ant didn't you run Toxic KyuB on a Dragon mono once <.<) What is this counterteaming you speak of?

Rock: Literally all I can think of is Curse RestTalk Aggron. Doesn't mind burns since Rest, and can seriously deal damage back to Sableye with Heavy Slam.

+3 0 Atk Mega Aggron Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Sableye: 262-309 (86.1 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
+6 0 SpA Sableye Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Mega Aggron: 277-327 (80.5 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Eh, I think Aggron can win.
OH SHIT FORGOT DIANCIE yeah diancie can beat Sableye thanks to Fairy typing, and a lot of people run Diancie anyways. I've seen TR CM Diancie, which easily lategame swept my Flying :I

Dark: Ah yes, Dark itself. I mean, if you set it up lategame, not much your own type can do, but I guess that can be said for anything. This is basically similar to Ghost, but it has a few more obscure checks. Crawdaunt can beat it (personal experience), SubSD Bisharp (Clearly said this lol), and M-Houndoom if you really want to. Clearly runs it, so I guess it can work??

Fighting: The type Sableye is said to 6-0. And yes, Fighting has a difficult time beating it. However, there are checks one can employ to beat this CM Ruby thing. It's actually similar to Electric. You can use CM Sub Keldeo to fight it, which I have seen many players use. The Specs set isn't the only set <.< Also, NP mons like Infernape or Lucario, or even Toxicroak if you really want to, can win. Oh yeah, I've also seen SubSD Salac Terrakion, which can work if you want to use it. There are actually many different methods Fighting can employ to check it, don't feel despair when you see a Sableye frens.

OK, so point is, nearly every type has methods to beat it, and most are pretty solid checks if not counters. Sableye isn't the end all counter to every type but Fairy, just think a bit more. I honestly don't see this any more threatening than, say CroCune, even if it has Magic Bounce. Maybe it was only because Sae was the one using it, but meh. Also, I don't recall writing any really obscure checks up there, most are pretty normal mons and they even have some pretty normal sets. I've seen the Salamence quickbanning thread in OU, and "if mence forces us to use obscure checks like those its broken" has appeared so many times, I tried my best to avoid that lol. Anyway, I've also been testing Dark for a bit now, and I have not gotten a early/mid game sweep with Sableye against any half decent player. I have only gotten a sweep vs. a solid player after I eliminated all their checks and counters through either them misplaying or me managing to outplay them. Neither have I seen any half decent player get utterly shut down by a M-Sableye, unless they were using Fighting and were using an old XY team, with a Gallade slapped on. I was going to write about Sableye itself a bit, but then I'd just be repeating A Hunk, so I'll avoid making you people read an even bigger wall of text.

Tl;dr Sableye isn't as broken as you all make him out to be, many types can check/counter it, and I basically see it as another new threat along with Gallade, Altaria, etc that we just need to adapt to. Don't suspect M-Sableye.

Co-written by Clearly.

EDIT: Jesus christ this post is huge, so I just bolded the part in the end which summed it all up if you don't feel like reading, which I completely understand.

 

[DoW]

Hmm... another point. While I certainly think caution is necessary, and that we shouldn't rush into this unless there are any absolutely obvious quickbans (like megamence), it should still be a case of if in doubt, suspect test. That way if it's not broken, it should simply not be banned in the suspect, rather than the potential for it needing a ban and not getting banned. Hopefully things will become clear soon enough as to whether or not it's potentially broken, but it's certainly possible to think something deserves a suspect test but shouldn't be banned within such a test. The scope for needing a test is wider than the scope for needing to be banned.

 

[Anttya]

In response to Croven (I didn't want to flood my whole screen w/ a reply)

You're right, but no mon is broken 1v1. Everything will have its checks and counters, but Monotype is all about finding teammates that can help you win and some types are naturally better at this. (Flying, Psychic, Dark etc) Also, you can't run specific mons just to counter one thing, you have to consider other threats as well. Sure, you can run Nasty Plot Togekiss, but Thundurus-I does this much better w/ better speed, sp atk, STABs, and ability. Yes, Togekiss gets Baton Pass, but Flying isn't really meant for Baton Pass. (Unless if you want to pass it to a Yanmega..)

I guess I'll try to ruin your hopes and dreams counter / check your Mega Sableye checks / counters.

Flying:

Mega Altaria

Dark:
Yes, Mega Altaria will be a pain, but in all honestly I don't think it'll be used a lot among top tier players. Charizard-X, and Gyarados "outclass" it. Altaria is also a little lacking.
+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Altaria Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 212-250 (77.9 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (You can use Eq, but Pixalated Returns are Altaria's niche. Charizard-X + Dragonite outclass Altaria as a Dragon Dancer)
Even at +1 and Adamant, Altaria fails to 1HKO something with 60/100 defenses. You can say that people use Altaria for its bulk but this:

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Altaria: 312-369 (107.2 - 126.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

If it can't live a Greninja's Ice Beam, then its bulk is pretty much useless.

Also: 252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Altaria: 229-273 (64.6 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Unlike Charizard-X, Sp Defensive Altaria can't switch into Greninja and Togekiss is a better Heal Beller anyways. Because of that, I really doubt Altaria's going to be used in upper ladder. (I'm going to be using upper ladder as my examples since there's no point quoting lower ladder for various reasons)

Fairy STAB hits Fighting, Dragon, and Dark so it doesn't hit anything too important outside of Dark, and even so, Focus Blast from a Thundurus does the job. Flying gains almost nothing from Pixilate.

Ghost:

Gengar, Aegislash, and Doublade make excellent checks.

252 Atk Altaria Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 136-162 (41.9 - 50%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Altaria Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 92-110 (28.5 - 34.1%) -- 1.7% chance to 3HKO

You cannot switch Gengar into a Return, but you can easily predict the Earthquake. (I mean, who's going to Return a Aegislash / Doublade?)

Nasty Plot Togekiss

Dark:

It's rare, but I guess it does have its uses. The problem is that if you run Speed, then you're missing out on a lot of bulk, and if you don't run speed, you're going to be outsped and 1KOed by Bisharp. Also, in all honestly, a smart Mega Sableye user isn't going to stay in on a Togekiss in case if it has Dazzling Gleam or something. Bisharp, Drapion, etc will be the obvious switch in, and chances are, they're going to get a safe switch.

Ghost:

Aegislash will wall you so hard. Yeah, you can paralyze it but if it Flash Cannons you, you just lost your only Sableye counter. If you Baton Pass then something's going to get hit hard w/ a Shadow Ball or Flash Cannon. Heck, it might even set up on you.

Charizard-X

Dark:

Mandibuzz will tank it, and 1KO with Foul Play. Hardly a counter, but Sableye's not going to stay in, that's for sure. Bulky Will-o-Wisp's a problem but there are ways to kill it (Hydreigon)

Ghost:

Dragon Dance Zard will pretty much sweep you unless if you have a sashed Golurk or Froslass. You can also do some mindgames with Aegislash, and Physically Bulky Jellicent / Dusclops can check it. However, if Flying has a Heal Beller, then you're screwed.

Gyara

Dark:

Rest Talk Gyara is mainly used to counter Kyurem-W so you're going to be spending a lot of your EVs into SpDef making it weaker in general. Also, don't forget that some Mega Sableyes carry Taunt instead of Will-o-Wisp so that might be a problem. Mandibuzz can easily phase it out as well. As for Taunt Mega Dos, that's going to be a problem, but Mandibuzz can live a +6 0 Atk Waterfall while dishing out a ton of damage in return.

+6 0 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 351-414 (82.9 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 276-326 (70 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Ghost:

Not even going to lie, Dragon Dance Gyarados's a bitch to Ghost. Nothing to say here I guess

Electric:

Raikou

Dark:

I'm going to keep on using this argument over and over because we have never banned anything since it was OP on its own, it's because it had the teammates to help to flourish. (An example would be Aegislash. Why was it banned on Steel but not Ghost? It's because Steel had the right Pokemon to support it while Ghost didn't.)

Raikou's a pain to deal with but depending on its moveset, something can wall it. If it's sub CM, then it's def going to have Extrasensory and Dark's immune to it. The second move is generally Thunderbolt, so stuff like Krookidile can wall it completely. I'll use your argument for this, just because it isn't seen doesn't mean it's bad. Krookidile has access to Intmidate, Taunt + Stealth Rock making it a great defensive Rock setter. Also, Tyranitar can take some hits in sand and hit back with Earthquake or Crunch. You may be able to surprise the Sableye user once or twice with the +6 & +5 but they're going to learn from it and it's never going to happen again.

+1 252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 135-160 (33.4 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

There's also a good chance that Tyranitar's Assault Vest as well.

252+ Atk Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 312-368 (96.8 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

Hydreigon makes a great check if it has been weakened.

Ghost:

There are a couple of checks, but I don't feel like explaining. (Golurk, Dusclops)

Thundurus-I

Dark:

Greninja will outspeed and KO you. Just sack something that's useless like Mandibuzz. Chances are, if you're running Nasty Plot, you're not running Thunder Wave. (Focus Blast > Thunder Wave)

Ground:

CM Lando

Dark:

This is pretty rare, but it's good if used right. But Greninja will outspeed you and KO you w/ Ice Beam. Sack something that's useless like T-tar and start the Greninja sweep. Once Lando's gone, then you have no way to stop Sableye.

Excadrill

Dark:

Mandibuzz will have a field day walling you. If you feel like Swords Dancing then take a Foul Play to the face. Oh, feel like switching to Hippodown? Let me switch right back to Sableye so your Toxic will bounce right back!

I can't do anything about Substitute, but Mandibuzz will wall you unless if you also carry SD. (Which is very unlikely.)

Quagsire

Dark:

Mandibuzz will Whirlwind you out. Greninja's Grass Knot will KO you as well.

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. +3 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 333-395 (84.5 - 100.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Greninja will be switching in at +2 most of the time (you attack once, notice its Stockpile and waste a turn switching)

Psychic:

Banded Victini

Dark:

Almost every user runs Scarf Victini for a multitude of reasons, but if you do run Band Victini then this:

I have Sableye out, opponent sends out Victini
Victini uses V-create and it does 87% damage (max roll), I recover or kill it with Dark Pulse / Shadow Ball.
If I used Recover, then I switch out into T-tar or Mandibuzz.

Yeah, Bandtini's a problem but once the secret's out, not anymore. You can freely spam Hydro Pump w/ Greninja knowing that you'll outspeed.

And yes, I know that V-create 2HKOs Mandibuzz, but iirc Mandibuzz outspeeds -1 Jolly Victini.

252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 169-199 (41.8 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
As you know, the best Dark users run Physically Defensive T-tar, and if it's Assault Vest it's bound to have Pursuit.

Gardevoir / Mega Gardevoir

Just eariler, I beat a solid Psychic user who ran Mega Gardevoir with my troll Sableye team. To beat it, you'll have sack stuff so you'd have a safe switch in for Bisharp. (I used Scarf T-tar as well.) It's a pain to beat, but it's possible.

Also, I'd like to say this since it's important. All of my checks / counters to your Pokemon are found on an everyday Dark team while you have to go out of your way to found a check / counter to Sableye. This makes Sableye extremely hard to beat w/o focusing on it, and even then, Dark has the Pokemon to get rid of your Sableye checks / counters.

I'll write the rest later (if I remember)

 

[Salemance]

In response to Croven (I didn't want to flood my whole screen w/ a reply)

You're right, but no mon is broken 1v1. Everything will have its checks and counters, but Monotype is all about finding teammates that can help you win and some types are naturally better at this. (Flying, Psychic, Dark etc) Also, you can't run specific mons just to counter one thing, you have to consider other threats as well. Sure, you can run Nasty Plot Togekiss, but Thundurus-I does this much better w/ better speed, sp atk, STABs, and ability. Yes, Togekiss gets Baton Pass, but Flying isn't really meant for Baton Pass. (Unless if you want to pass it to a Yanmega..)

I guess I'll try to ruin your hopes and dreams counter / check your Mega Sableye checks / counters.

Flying:

Mega Altaria

Dark:
Yes, Mega Altaria will be a pain, but in all honestly I don't think it'll be used a lot among top tier players. Charizard-X, and Gyarados "outclass" it. Altaria is also a little lacking.
+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Altaria Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 212-250 (77.9 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (You can use Eq, but Pixalated Returns are Altaria's niche. Charizard-X + Dragonite outclass Altaria as a Dragon Dancer)
Even at +1 and Adamant, Altaria fails to 1HKO something with 60/100 defenses. You can say that people use Altaria for its bulk but this:

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Altaria: 312-369 (107.2 - 126.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

If it can't live a Greninja's Ice Beam, then its bulk is pretty much useless.

Also: 252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Altaria: 229-273 (64.6 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Unlike Charizard-X, Sp Defensive Altaria can't switch into Greninja and Togekiss is a better Heal Beller anyways. Because of that, I really doubt Altaria's going to be used in upper ladder. (I'm going to be using upper ladder as my examples since there's no point quoting lower ladder for various reasons)

Fairy STAB hits Fighting, Dragon, and Dark so it doesn't hit anything too important outside of Dark, and even so, Focus Blast from a Thundurus does the job. Flying gains almost nothing from Pixilate.

Ghost:

Gengar, Aegislash, and Doublade make excellent checks.

252 Atk Altaria Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 136-162 (41.9 - 50%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Altaria Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 92-110 (28.5 - 34.1%) -- 1.7% chance to 3HKO

You cannot switch Gengar into a Return, but you can easily predict the Earthquake. (I mean, who's going to Return a Aegislash / Doublade?)

Nasty Plot Togekiss

Dark:

It's rare, but I guess it does have its uses. The problem is that if you run Speed, then you're missing out on a lot of bulk, and if you don't run speed, you're going to be outsped and 1KOed by Bisharp. Also, in all honestly, a smart Mega Sableye user isn't going to stay in on a Togekiss in case if it has Dazzling Gleam or something. Bisharp, Drapion, etc will be the obvious switch in, and chances are, they're going to get a safe switch.

Ghost:

Aegislash will wall you so hard. Yeah, you can paralyze it but if it Flash Cannons you, you just lost your only Sableye counter. If you Baton Pass then something's going to get hit hard w/ a Shadow Ball or Flash Cannon. Heck, it might even set up on you.

Charizard-X

Dark:

Mandibuzz will tank it, and 1KO with Foul Play. Hardly a counter, but Sableye's not going to stay in, that's for sure. Bulky Will-o-Wisp's a problem but there are ways to kill it (Hydreigon)

Ghost:

Dragon Dance Zard will pretty much sweep you unless if you have a sashed Golurk or Froslass. You can also do some mindgames with Aegislash, and Physically Bulky Jellicent / Dusclops can check it. However, if Flying has a Heal Beller, then you're screwed.

Gyara

Dark:

Rest Talk Gyara is mainly used to counter Kyurem-W so you're going to be spending a lot of your EVs into SpDef making it weaker in general. Also, don't forget that some Mega Sableyes carry Taunt instead of Will-o-Wisp so that might be a problem. Mandibuzz can easily phase it out as well. As for Taunt Mega Dos, that's going to be a problem, but Mandibuzz can live a +6 0 Atk Waterfall while dishing out a ton of damage in return.

+6 0 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 351-414 (82.9 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 276-326 (70 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Ghost:

Not even going to lie, Dragon Dance Gyarados's a bitch to Ghost. Nothing to say here I guess

Electric:

Raikou

Dark:

I'm going to keep on using this argument over and over because we have never banned anything since it was OP on its own, it's because it had the teammates to help to flourish. (An example would be Aegislash. Why was it banned on Steel but not Ghost? It's because Steel had the right Pokemon to support it while Ghost didn't.)

Raikou's a pain to deal with but depending on its moveset, something can wall it. If it's sub CM, then it's def going to have Extrasensory and Dark's immune to it. The second move is generally Thunderbolt, so stuff like Krookidile can wall it completely. I'll use your argument for this, just because it isn't seen doesn't mean it's bad. Krookidile has access to Intmidate, Taunt + Stealth Rock making it a great defensive Rock setter. Also, Tyranitar can take some hits in sand and hit back with Earthquake or Crunch. You may be able to surprise the Sableye user once or twice with the +6 & +5 but they're going to learn from it and it's never going to happen again.

+1 252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 135-160 (33.4 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

There's also a good chance that Tyranitar's Assault Vest as well.

252+ Atk Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 312-368 (96.8 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

Hydreigon makes a great check if it has been weakened.

Ghost:

There are a couple of checks, but I don't feel like explaining. (Golurk, Dusclops)

Thundurus-I

Dark:

Greninja will outspeed and KO you. Just sack something that's useless like Mandibuzz. Chances are, if you're running Nasty Plot, you're not running Thunder Wave. (Focus Blast > Thunder Wave)

Ground:

CM Lando

Dark:

This is pretty rare, but it's good if used right. But Greninja will outspeed you and KO you w/ Ice Beam. Sack something that's useless like T-tar and start the Greninja sweep. Once Lando's gone, then you have no way to stop Sableye.

Excadrill

Dark:

Mandibuzz will have a field day walling you. If you feel like Swords Dancing then take a Foul Play to the face. Oh, feel like switching to Hippodown? Let me switch right back to Sableye so your Toxic will bounce right back!

I can't do anything about Substitute, but Mandibuzz will wall you unless if you also carry SD. (Which is very unlikely.)

Quagsire

Dark:

Mandibuzz will Whirlwind you out. Greninja's Grass Knot will KO you as well.

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. +3 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 333-395 (84.5 - 100.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Greninja will be switching in at +2 most of the time (you attack once, notice its Stockpile and waste a turn switching)

Psychic:

Banded Victini

Dark:

Almost every user runs Scarf Victini for a multitude of reasons, but if you do run Band Victini then this:

I have Sableye out, opponent sends out Victini
Victini uses V-create and it does 87% damage (max roll), I recover or kill it with Dark Pulse / Shadow Ball.
If I used Recover, then I switch out into T-tar or Mandibuzz.

Yeah, Bandtini's a problem but once the secret's out, not anymore. You can freely spam Hydro Pump w/ Greninja knowing that you'll outspeed.

And yes, I know that V-create 2HKOs Mandibuzz, but iirc Mandibuzz outspeeds -1 Jolly Victini.

252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 169-199 (41.8 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
As you know, the best Dark users run Physically Defensive T-tar, and if it's Assault Vest it's bound to have Pursuit.

Gardevoir / Mega Gardevoir

Just eariler, I beat a solid Psychic user who ran Mega Gardevoir with my troll Sableye team. To beat it, you'll have sack stuff so you'd have a safe switch in for Bisharp. (I used Scarf T-tar as well.) It's a pain to beat, but it's possible.

Also, I'd like to say this since it's important. All of my checks / counters to your Pokemon are found on an everyday Dark team while you have to go out of your way to found a check / counter to Sableye. This makes Sableye extremely hard to beat w/o focusing on it, and even then, Dark has the Pokemon to get rid of your Sableye checks / counters.

I'll write the rest later (if I remember)

Only other ground I can say is probably just Camerupt-M, but that's just being slightly nitpicky.

A key thing to remember though about Mega Sable is just that of can already force the opponent in a lot of lose lose scenarios early without even evolving yet and having an emergency prankster turn on its first turn as Mega. It can both cripples and turns the tide of the battle depending on what stage of the battle you are in.

I mean sure there are some unique ways to handle it but you must ask if these options are viable enough to perform their roles outside of that one job. An example is that of using Arcanine and Wheezing back in OU when Mega Maw was allowed as those two were arguably its truest counters yet were outclassed in every regard in the tier outside of that. I've gone around using some silly sets before but you really have to ask yourself when you get to the point of thinking of some of the nichest things in order to best handle a threat is it worth keeping in the tier?

 

[Croven]

Anttyaz Not gonna argue every single type and things while I'm on my phone, and if we keep doing this it'd just be a pain lol.

One thing which I feel you are wrong about is the statement that "no mon is broken by itself". There are a multitude of mons that are broken by themselves, such as M-Mence, M-Kanga, and almost all the cover legends. In monotype itself, Talonflame was banned not for its support, but for the fact that it just ran through multiple types itself. You could say that the support necessary was a hazard remover, but look at Fire. Torkoal isn't necessarily the best hazard remover in the game, yet Tflame was still banned.

Also, none of the mons I suggested as checks did I 'have to go out of my way for'; I honestly thought of them in less than 30 seconds each. All of the mons and sets I posted are either already on said mono (Elec, Fire) or would require minimal change to the team itself that would hardly hamper the team's overall efficiency (Fighting, Flying) The fact is that Sableye has to rely on his teammates to beat mons that are commonly found, and who likely also have teammates that can wall/break typical Dark mons. While you had a solid point in the Aegislash ban, a key difference is that in 3 mons alone, you could wall almost the entire metagame, and most monos required extremely obscure checks to beat that 3 mon core. Sableye and his teammates are nowhere close to this; Dark would have already been a top tier threat along with Flying and Water if it was.

Point is, Sableye has to rely on teammates to deal with very common mons on nearly every type, and if the opposing team is any good, they will have mons that also deal with Sableye's teammates. Then, it becomes a game of skill: who can break the other' score first? And if that's how games are won, then the meta is healthy, in my opinion, as skill has now become the key factor in winning.

 

[Tyke]

Anttyaz Not gonna argue every single type and things while I'm on my phone, and if we keep doing this it'd just be a pain lol.

One thing which I feel you are wrong about is the statement that "no mon is broken by itself". There are a multitude of mons that are broken by themselves, such as M-Mence, M-Kanga, and almost all the cover legends. In monotype itself, Talonflame was banned not for its support, but for the fact that it just ran through multiple types itself. You could say that the support necessary was a hazard remover, but look at Fire. Torkoal isn't necessarily the best hazard remover in the game, yet Tflame was still banned.

Also, none of the mons I suggested as checks did I 'have to go out of my way for'; I honestly thought of them in less than 30 seconds each. All of the mons and sets I posted are either already on said mono (Elec, Fire) or would require minimal change to the team itself that would hardly hamper the team's overall efficiency (Fighting, Flying) The fact is that Sableye has to rely on his teammates to beat mons that are commonly found, and who likely also have teammates that can wall/break typical Dark mons. While you had a solid point in the Aegislash ban, a key difference is that in 3 mons alone, you could wall almost the entire metagame, and most monos required extremely obscure checks to beat that 3 mon core. Sableye and his teammates are nowhere close to this; Dark would have already been a top tier threat along with Flying and Water if it was.

Point is, Sableye has to rely on teammates to deal with very common mons on nearly every type, and if the opposing team is any good, they will have mons that also deal with Sableye's teammates. Then, it becomes a game of skill: who can break the other' score first? And if that's how games are won, then the meta is healthy, in my opinion, as skill has now become the key factor in winning.

This.

All of this tbh.

 

[feen]

Well after looking at quite a few people's thoughts on suspects, and many of them are good arguments, I'm a little surprised that no-one has suggested a single suspect for a Flying type yet apart from the argument over Lando-i, who is far from a staple on these teams. Flying is without a doubt the most used type in the metagame and the most consistent to win with thanks to the incredible array of options it provides allowing it to deal with almost any threat, and ironically a lot of the suggestions I've seen for suspects in this thread would only strengthen that position such as Greninja and Kyurem-W. While I'm not arguing that these threats are potentially broken, in my eyes it goes against the ideal of metagame balance where we try and make every type viable, because if there is one type that generates so much usage and has a consistently higher winrate than any other then we are still far from a balanced metagame. That brings us to the question, what actually makes Flying so good? The general consensus on this seems to be it's incredible array of options, providing excellent synergy between it's team members allowing it to deal with many a threat, even those that on paper would have a type advantage. Because of this, it is difficult to pinpoint one member that sets Flying apart, but if there is such a pokemon, I believe it could be Mega Charizard X, who supplements the team incredibly well by bringing to the table an Electric resistance and an Ice neutrality, allied with a STAB combination that allows it to hit almost every Ice type pokemon for supereffective damage. That typing is so incredibly valuable for Flying that the only set I consider when making a Flying team these days is the specially defensive set, as the team support it provides is just incredible, and allied with a reliable defogger(this is flying) it can do so much work in pretty much any matchup. Even it's weakness to Ground is covered by the fact that every single one of it's teammates is immune to said moves.

What would Flying teams look like without Zard X? I've seen many a successful team utilising Mega Gyarados but it certainly makes Flying harder to run, as adding Gyara does nothing to solve your chronic Electric weakness so it would be interesting to see what variations were created.

Would it nerf Flying too much? I'm certain that the answer is no for this one, I feel it'd bring Flying back down to earth with all the other types.

I don't even get why anyone would think about banning a pokemon that gained no new benefits and survived a gen without being broken. Plus with all the new megas around it certainly gets outclassed, reducing it's sweeping capabilities. Also, the only reasonable excuse for it's banning would be because it's top tier and breaks the rules of monotype by being resistant to electric and neutral to ice, which are weaknesses of Flying, but that's what it's supposed to do. DD set is too frail and the bulkier variant can be beaten with Fast attackers.
I suggest looking into the new megas first rather than destroying one of flying's best cores.

 

[Tyke]

I don't even get why anyone would think about banning a pokemon that gained no new benefits and survived a gen without being broken. Plus with all the new megas around it certainly gets outclassed, reducing it's sweeping capabilities. Also, the only reasonable excuse for it's banning would be because it's top tier and breaks the rules of monotype by being resistant to electric and neutral to ice, which are weaknesses of Flying, but that's what it's supposed to do. DD set is too frail and the bulkier variant can be beaten with Fast attackers.
I suggest looking into the new megas first rather than destroying one of flying's best cores.

Good point Arifeen.

I suggest destroying one of flying's best cores :P

Tbh forcing flying monotypes to choose between being a little electric weak with mega-dos or a little ice weak with mega-altaria seems perfectly reasonable, considering the struggles and compromises other monos have to make.

 

[feen]

Good point Arifeen.

I suggest destroying one of flying's best cores :P

Tbh forcing flying monotypes to choose between being a little electric weak with mega-dos or a little ice weak with mega-altaria seems perfectly reasonable, considering the struggles and compromises other monos have to make.

What about the old times when there were no ubers? Was flying that OP? I remember Ground and Psychic peaking the ladder rather than flying monos, the only flying trainer that high was Animus Majulous and he used a Zard Y. Your point?

 

[Croven]

I don't even get why anyone would think about banning a pokemon that gained no new benefits and survived a gen without being broken. Plus with all the new megas around it certainly gets outclassed, reducing it's sweeping capabilities. Also, the only reasonable excuse for it's banning would be because it's top tier and breaks the rules of monotype by being resistant to electric and neutral to ice, which are weaknesses of Flying, but that's what it's supposed to do. DD set is too frail and the bulkier variant can be beaten with Fast attackers.
I suggest looking into the new megas first rather than destroying one of flying's best cores.

Alright, Arifeen, you need to stop lol. Zard X could theoretically be suspected for giving Flying way too much offensive and defensive synergy, so there goes point #1 of "why should Zard be suspected". Second, since when was Zard X frail? It's one of the bulkiest DD'ers thanks to great typing, decent bulk, and reliable recovery in Roost. The only DD'er that is bulkier than it is Mence Altaria. And how is looking at the new megas going to be any different than looking at Zard X? He is still the premier Flying mega to go to, you even say that nothing changed, which just further proves my point. Also, the entire point of suspecting Zard X is to break up one of Flying's best core; it has simply begun to be too good. It is now on par with the Heatran/Skarm/Aegi core of Steel, if not better, and that core was the whole reason that Aegi was banned from Steel. Look, I hate to see Zard go as much as you do, but it has come to the point where it needs to happen. Flying has become ridiculously easy to build and play with, and as Hunk said, a little choice is something that every other mono has to deal with too.

However, while I am leaning pro suspect on Zard X, I believe it should wait until the other broken mons get suspected, such as Medi/Gallade, Slowbro, and maybe Gene or the other Ubers. Zard X, while it is a threat, it isn't on the same level as the other threats of the tier, so I recommend putting Zard at a lower priority compared to the rest of the potential suspects.

 

[all falls down]

Well after looking at quite a few people's thoughts on suspects, and many of them are good arguments, I'm a little surprised that no-one has suggested a single suspect for a Flying type yet apart from the argument over Lando-i, who is far from a staple on these teams. Flying is without a doubt the most used type in the metagame and the most consistent to win with thanks to the incredible array of options it provides allowing it to deal with almost any threat, and ironically a lot of the suggestions I've seen for suspects in this thread would only strengthen that position such as Greninja and Kyurem-W. While I'm not arguing that these threats are potentially broken, in my eyes it goes against the ideal of metagame balance where we try and make every type viable, because if there is one type that generates so much usage and has a consistently higher winrate than any other then we are still far from a balanced metagame. That brings us to the question, what actually makes Flying so good? The general consensus on this seems to be it's incredible array of options, providing excellent synergy between it's team members allowing it to deal with many a threat, even those that on paper would have a type advantage. Because of this, it is difficult to pinpoint one member that sets Flying apart, but if there is such a pokemon, I believe it could be Mega Charizard X, who supplements the team incredibly well by bringing to the table an Electric resistance and an Ice neutrality, allied with a STAB combination that allows it to hit almost every Ice type pokemon for supereffective damage. That typing is so incredibly valuable for Flying that the only set I consider when making a Flying team these days is the specially defensive set, as the team support it provides is just incredible, and allied with a reliable defogger(this is flying) it can do so much work in pretty much any matchup. Even it's weakness to Ground is covered by the fact that every single one of it's teammates is immune to said moves.

What would Flying teams look like without Zard X? I've seen many a successful team utilising Mega Gyarados but it certainly makes Flying harder to run, as adding Gyara does nothing to solve your chronic Electric weakness so it would be interesting to see what variations were created.

Would it nerf Flying too much? I'm certain that the answer is no for this one, I feel it'd bring Flying back down to earth with all the other types.

I agree that we should continually be looking at a way to balance flying rather than jumping to ban all of the new mega Pokemon, because as it stands, flying is still by far the most consistent type and arguably the strongest type. When playing games on the new ladder I tried pretty much all of the new mega Pokemon and found myself going back to using flying after losses because it still worked so well against every type.

The problem with balancing with flying is that there is no one Pokemon that is too overpowered in flying, rather that every Pokemon on flying work so well together to form a team that flows so perfectly and consistently that it can handle every type that stands before it, a very rare trait in monotype. With this stands the problem that banning any one of the Pokemon in flying seems absurd; Zapdos, Skarmory and Landorus are just not overpowered Pokemon in their own right, but when on the same team it sure seems as if they are.

I also agree with DM35 in that the most blatantly obvious Pokemon to ban is Mega Charizard X, as its typing is an insane gift to flying, not to mention that it just plainly steamrolls a few teams if given the opportunity to dragon dance. I do think that flying would be considerably less powerful without it, as it would be more susceptible to Pokemon like nasty plot Thundurus and Greninja that have the potential to completely sweep flying. Charizard simply put glues together flying too well; its typing makes it almost invulnerable to some teams like Electric, that almost flat out loses to specially defensive Charizard as only a few niche pokemon aside from Ampharos, like earthquake Electivire and rock slide Eelektross can touch it, and these can be burned. With these reasons, I think that suspect testing Charizard would be a good idea, as I really can't think of any other way to balance flying; I encourage everyone to think of ways to do so.

I have to agree with Croven however, as even though Flying remains the arguably best type, there are other standalone Pokemon that are clearly broken that should be dealt with first like Medicham, Mega-Gallade and Mega-Slowbro. (Which happen to all be in Psychic, the other most broken type in my opinion)

 

[all falls down]

BST:
HP:72
ATK:95
DEF:67
SPA:103
SPD:71
SPE:122 (SanicFast)

Okay, the speed stat is whooping, but what makes this so deadly? PROTEAN; it gets STAB from all its moves, meaning it will hit HARD to almost anything. This thing has a few walls depending on it's set, and if it has the set that is intended to break a certain wall, it WILL.
It can be beaten by scarfs, but some users run scarf ninja to kill them, the point is it's unpredictable what set it is. Some runs expert belt and fakes a scarf as well and finishes you off when you lower your guard
Lemme show how Greninja beats the walls of different types:

Fighting: Extrasensory+Shadow Sneak or Scarf Extrasensory. Only MegaCham and Conkeldurr tank hits but they have their prospective walls in the types (Mandibuzz for Dark and Swampert and Alomomola, Slowbro(Megacham), Swampert(Conkeldurr)

Normal: The only type that can wall Greninja with Chansey and Porygon 2 but gets beaten by Keldeo or Bisharp, once they are down it's pretty much ogre.

Flying: You can do nothing, no switchins to Orbed Ninja (Unless you run Articuno but good luck with that 4x weakness to rocks). Taking down Orb-ed ninja is using a faster scarf, but if it's scarf, gg.

Fire: Surfin' through the walls.

Electric: Beams Zapdos, Surf does a number on magnezone, outspeeds scarf magnezone anyways. AV Elektross can tank a hit but dies from multiple switchins

Grass: One hope: Skymin, or else, if Ferro dies to Keldeo/TTar, Extrasensory/Ice beaming errything.

Dragon: Ice beams everywhere after Secret sword that Kyurem-B with Keldeo/Bisharp's Iron Head

Fairy: Gunk Shot does a huge number on fairies, but they can tank with the screens, but still does a huge number and stops BD Azumarill

Water: Grass knot+Dark Pulse+Extrasensory kills the walls.

Dark: Ice beam the Mandibuzz, Low Kick the ttar. RIP walls ;_;

Ice: Dark Pulse kills the Avalugg, Surf kills Piloswine, Articuno can wall it, but it's teammates can kill that.

Poison: Extrasensory sweep if no Drapion

Bug: No switchins to it.

Steel: Surf the Heatran+Skarm, HP Fire surprise for Ferro or ttar fireblast/keldeo secret sword. Dark Pulse the Doublade.

Ghost: Dark Pulse everything.

Ground: Surf+Grass Knot+Ice Beam.

Rock: Surf+Ice Beam+ Low kick.

Psychic: Dark Pulse the Meloetta, AV Gallade can tank a hit and kill it if it's completely special, Dark Pulse kills slowbro and 2hkos mew so no switchins.

tl;dr Although Greninja's frail, it's wallbreaking capability cannot be overlooked and creates no switchins for many types. I suggest suspect testing this.

I also think that Greninja is just far too good with the addition of Gunk Shot. Gunk shot is a 120 base power physical move, and with Greninja's STAB, it hits insanely hard. With Gunk Shot, Greninja can demolish previous threats with the ability to OHKO Azumarill, 2HKO Meloetta, and much more. As of now there are only a handful Pokemon in the entire metagame that can switch into Greninja, being Chansey and Empoleon, the latter being 2HKO'd by Low Kick. This makes Greninja an immediate threat to nearly every team in Monotype because of its speed and coverage; I agree that it should be suspect tested for both of its types.

 

[RedsCharizard]

Mega Medicham
Typing: Fighting / Psychic
Stats: 60 / 100 / 85 / 80 / 85 / 100 (510)
Trait: Pure Power

Mega Medicham is probably the most effective wallbreaker in the game. Thanks to a large base attack of 100 and Pure Power, it is able to achieve 299 Attack without an attack boosting nature and 328 attack with an attack boosting nature. There's not many types that can handle this, as most physical walls will get shredded by two High Jump Kicks, and thanks to its good coverage with Ice Punch and a decent STAB Zen Headbutt, there's little that can take it. To sum it up, when Mega Medicham switches in, you have to decide: "Okay, what's gonna die?"

How each type fares:

Normal: Unquestionably destroyed after Staraptor and any scarfers are dead. High Jump Kick anhilliates everything. Requires the new Megas to somewhat check it. Mega Pidgeot can outspeed and hit it with a Hurricane, and Lopunny outspeeds and should take it out with Fake Out + Frustration at a point. Credit to Mentalist Swag for the following calculation for Mega Audino:
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Audino: 217-256 (52.9 - 62.4%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
Guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, in other words.

Fighting: Can't switch into Mega Medicham, so you'll need something that can outspeed it (The sword trio or a scarf), otherwise, it gets crushed by Zen Headbutt.

Flying: Skarmory is pretty much everything that flying has to throw out against Mega Medicham, and possibly Zapdos. High Jump Kick is a 2HKO on Mandibuzz. If Medicham is carrying Thunder Punch, things like Gyarados cannot switch into it either.

Poison: Gengar, Scolipede and Crobat are capable of knocking it out, but cannot switch in to attacks. Drapion and Skuntank are immune to Zen Headbutt, but physically defensive Drapion gets 2HKOed by High Jump Kick, and Skuntank cannot take it at all.

Ground: Hippowdon, Quagsire and Gastrodon are all 2HKOed by High Jump Kick, and because many Medicham carry Ice Punch, Gliscor is not something that can effectively wall it, so Ground's only hope of taking out Medicham is to use one of its attackers.

Rock: All attackers except Terrakion, Archeops and Aerodactyl have less than 100 base speed, so rock needs to focus on keeping them alive (or having them in general), or it gets swept.

Bug: Scizor is practically everything that can somewhat check Medicham thanks to Bullet Punch. Otherwise, Forretress is 2HKOed by High Jump Kick, so nothing can take a hit. Beedrill will die to Fake Out + Bullet Punch easily.

Ghost: Well... obviously, nothing will be hit by fighting moves, so Medicham doesn't do all that much here, although Zen Headbutt will still hurt.

Steel: Crushed by High Jump Kicks, unless you want to spam Protect with Heatran and Ferrothorn. Skarmory gets 2HKOed by HJK, so you'll need a free switch to retaliate back with a Brave Bird.

Fire: Can only use its offensive threats to KO it, for example Entei's Extreme Speed, Infernape's Overheat, etc. Charizard has the same speed as Medicham, as does Victini, so it would need a Choice Scarf. Torkoal is 2HKOed by HJK.

Water: Has a fair amount of offensive checks and Swift Swim, so it doesn't suffer as much as other types, but most of its walls get 2HKOed by HJK except Jellicent, who is 2HKOed by Zen Headbutt, even if all of its EVs are in physical defense. Slowbro effectively checks a set that doesn't have Thunder Punch though.

Grass: Shaymin-Sky is all that outspeeds, and that's under suspect. Ferrothorn won't take a hit, Venusaur gets anhiliated by Zen Headbutt, therefore, it can't check it if it gets a free switch.

Electric: Rotom gets 2-shotted by HJK and the typical Zapdos set gets 2-shotted by Zen Headbutt. However, it has a handful of offensive threats that outspeed it.

Psychic: Well, thanks to Mew, Slowbro, etc., Psychic doesn't suffer to Mega Medicham.

Ice: Gone. Bullet Punch and HJK crush everything. Nothing else to say.

Dragon: Lati twins, Garchomp and the type's Choice Scarves (which are common) outspeed Medicham. It doesn't carry walls, so there's no need to comment on that.

Dark: Mandibuzz gets crushed by 2 HJKs, so its only hope is to keep Sableye alive to (somewhat) wall it and keeping offensive checks alive, which is basically only Greninja, Sucker Punch users and choice scarves.

Fairy: Doesn't have all that much trouble, but Zen Headbutt still takes down a lot of things. Things like Scarf Togekiss and Mega Gardevoir can check it pretty well.

 

[scpinion]

I really wish I had more time to type this up this morning seeing as opinions are flying in quickly, but unfortunately I do not. Thus, here are my opinions in brief.

We need to ban Kyu-w and Skymin ASAP, no suspects needed! They have had their time in the meta, and that has passed. Kyu-W was a fun experiment, but it just made too many match-ups one-sided. Grass now has Mega-Scept to serve as a fast, special-attacking threat, which does not win by hax.

The first suspects should be: Mega-Sableye, Mega-Slowbro. Monotype is inherently an offensively-biased metagame because of the difficulty in addressing shared weaknesses. The best types in the game are the ones that can do that (look at the old Steel immunity core and the recent discussion of Flying here). While they have specific checks/counters, these two pokemon can stall out the vast majority of the meta with minimal support. These are just worse versions of cancerfable; I, for one, am not interested in playing a metagame that is heavy on stall (sorry Anttya :P). The specifics of each one being broken have already been discussed (and continue to be) so I'll leave that be for when I have more time.

With these threats addressed, we would be in a position to address the offensive behemoths that remain from XY and the new ones OR/AS has provided. Things like Mega-Medi, Mega-Mawile, Mega-Gallade, Greninja, etc. This would also give us time to assess how the new mega-evolutions affect the flying core with CharX, and make an informed decision on suspecting it.

For those of you celebrating today, Happy Thanksgiving! :)

 

[n64lord]

So mega slowbro... I always ran an iron defense slowbro, and relied on regenerator so that I could still switch it in, scald or even slack off and then scald, and then take it out with only neglible damage from the toxic before my free healing when opposing stall made sweeping out of the question. Now with ORAS, I didn't build a new team around mega slowbro, but simply ran my original as a second mega.. More or less the only Setup pokes I had problems with the original were pinsir and knock off users, and now I had protection around the more common of these two, only giving up an extra 12% health to status in it's second role. In match ups where I felt the need to evolve it (if it's hit with para somehow, this is pretty much a given evolution)

In short, I find little oppurtunity cost in using mega slowbro, even if psychic only wants him to actually mega over their psychic/fighting types in maybe 2-3 type matchups. It can sweep teams, but like the old CM slowbro, it can be forced out by decent stall, or specs special attackers even after he's reached +1 or 2, or certain opposing cm pokemon, and dosen't completely protect itself from physical attackers that have already set up, especially heracross variants. Given that both types have solid defensive pokemon with heal bell, mega slowbro is a pretty easy to support for a pretty long time.

I'm finding him to be a "why not" pokemon rather than something I want to plan to use or go around, mostly due to the similarity in ev spreads, moveset, and base special defense.

 

[Ramplestilskin]

I still don't understand why you want to ban something that noone is playing, namely Kyu-W. I saw near to zero Ice mono when laddering, and even when I faced it, it didn't prevent me from winning (I mean, it wasn't an auto-lose). This thing is absolutely not Overcentralizing, and in my opinion not overpowered. If your point is that you have to sac something whenever it enters in the field, I should answer : so does Specs Keldeo against most Monotype.
Furthermore, currently playing with a mono-water, I obviously have a hard time each time I faced a mono-grass (which doesn't even carry Skymin half of the time while they practically always run MVenusaur and Breloom). And I have to say that the one giving me trouble is far from being Skymin, but Mega-Venusaur. (this doesn't mean MVenu deserve a ban at all) Once again, I never played Skymin, and I didn't play a lot of team either, the only other one I made was a Poison one and was also able to kill it. I don't say that because I didn't have trouble with Skymin, it doesn't deserve a ban, but I won't be as straight-out as you are.
I'm not really fan of a Mega-Bro ban (because it can't solve the problem I have with Kyu-B in fact :/), but I didn't play enough battles in ORAS to make an idea (even if the few times I faced it, I easily get through it, but may be it is because I run a Quag so it's not a good agument).