Under no circumstances should usage be brought up as an argument against something being broken. As for Kyu-W being legitimately broken there have been extensive arguments that hold a lot of water in the previous pages.
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Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]
- Thread starter ryan
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If you're struggling with venu, run Tentacruel with Acid Spray and Liquid Ooze, it absolutely annihlates it one vs one while having a good matchup vs most grass types that aren't Breloom and Rotom-C.
On the note of the rest of your post, usage doesn't necessarily denote if something broken, in most cases it correlates sure but in Monotype especially, you can't really say I hardly ever saw it so it can't be broken when there's 17 other types that you could be randomly matched up against, so if we assume Ice is a low usage type, I could realistically play 20-30 games without seeing a single Ice team, but if it still skews matchups to the extent where a skilled player has little or no chance to win then it's still broken, despite Ice still not being used much.
On the note of the rest of your post, usage doesn't necessarily denote if something broken, in most cases it correlates sure but in Monotype especially, you can't really say I hardly ever saw it so it can't be broken when there's 17 other types that you could be randomly matched up against, so if we assume Ice is a low usage type, I could realistically play 20-30 games without seeing a single Ice team, but if it still skews matchups to the extent where a skilled player has little or no chance to win then it's still broken, despite Ice still not being used much.
Sorry, but if we were going to ban Charizard-X it would've been last gen when it was insanely op. This gen Charizard's going to have a much harder time finding times trying to set up / force things out since a 100 base speed is nothing compared to the new megas. It hasn't gained anything, but it got nerfed. Flying players are pretty much forced to run Zard-X or Rest Talk Gyarados to keep up with today's threats. Also, this gen isn't about Flying anymore. It's about Psychic, Dark and possibily Fighting (to beat Darks). Flying can't even dent Dark, hardly touch a well built Psychic team and still has trouble beating Fighting. (Scarf Terrakion, Gallade outspeeds Lando, Thundy etc). Charizard X has never been in Flying's standard core. As you know, the core is Skarmory, Zapdos and maybe Togekiss. Charizard X is just there to clean up once the team's weakened. You can suspect it, but I really don't think we should focus on a nerfed top tier threat when there are a shit ton of broken stuff to suspect
I find kyurem W to have a neutral effect on the game, its said to only work as a "moreso" pokemon in the same places kuyrem black is used, and doesn't really expand the ice type's metagame. I'm okay with it staying in mono, but it's only an issue I only see cropping up in tourneys tbh.
skymin on the other hand can be an overbearing victory condition against tea.ms ranging from fighting to poison, and dosen't give up very much with its subseed set either. It dosen't make as noticable of a splash in the very few positive match ups grass already had, but it dosen't need to, but quite a few otherwise neutral teams boil down to hamming away with skymin, testing for scarf when they send in something suspeicous, using your walls to prevent setup and maybe kill a mon or two, and Then bringing in skymin to rinse and repeat, foddering one of your unimportant pokemon if they don't play ball with your wall, and getting him in just as well after. You don't see him often, but he dosen't really add anything healthy to the game at the end of the day. I lean suspect, but deny that he's overpowered.
While charizard-X for flying is the "complete package" in terms of shoring up the most common flying weaknesses and makes for some of the "best" flying teams, I don't really see his hypothetical removal threatening the flying's presence on the upper ladder, and indeed, I find least effective once you've gotten their, as while he is versatile against the biggest number of teams, the more focused chari-y or gyarados are easier to support when playing footsies with a devious opponent. Should stay, etc.
skymin on the other hand can be an overbearing victory condition against tea.ms ranging from fighting to poison, and dosen't give up very much with its subseed set either. It dosen't make as noticable of a splash in the very few positive match ups grass already had, but it dosen't need to, but quite a few otherwise neutral teams boil down to hamming away with skymin, testing for scarf when they send in something suspeicous, using your walls to prevent setup and maybe kill a mon or two, and Then bringing in skymin to rinse and repeat, foddering one of your unimportant pokemon if they don't play ball with your wall, and getting him in just as well after. You don't see him often, but he dosen't really add anything healthy to the game at the end of the day. I lean suspect, but deny that he's overpowered.
While charizard-X for flying is the "complete package" in terms of shoring up the most common flying weaknesses and makes for some of the "best" flying teams, I don't really see his hypothetical removal threatening the flying's presence on the upper ladder, and indeed, I find least effective once you've gotten their, as while he is versatile against the biggest number of teams, the more focused chari-y or gyarados are easier to support when playing footsies with a devious opponent. Should stay, etc.
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You're right. I'll answer this and I'll stop.
I agree with some of this and I don't agree with some of this, but to prevent farther arguments I won't say them .3.
I'm pretty sure you saw the team I've been using to abuse Mega Sableye. It consists of Sandile (rocks / taunt / roar), Valluby (U-turn for safe switch ins), Bisharp (fairies), Mega Sableye, T-tar (scarfed to beat stuff like Togekiss), and Murkrow (gets rid of Chanseys etc). Although I've been winning some battles with hax, I've beaten a fair amount of solid people with it. All I had to do was set rocks, use scarf t-tar / murkrow to get rid of threats, then sweep. Aside from the odd crit, this strat has worked brillantly against a majority of opponents I've faced. The fact that I'm still successful with 3 LC Pokemon shows that Sableye is good, even without proper support.
Yeah, it's true that Zard X should have been suspected last gen, when it truly was OP, but (absolutely zero offense to the leaders of Monotype) things just didn't seem to happen that much. SS took several months to nerf, even after the entire community was calling for a ban/nerf. This is why I was suggesting waiting before potentially suspecting Zard X, as it might have lost some power in the transition.
Also, I strongly disagree with the statement that Flying can hardly touch Dark or Psychic. In my experience, Psychic has not been much trouble, and was instead playing smart with Zard X and wearing down Mew. Psychic can break Flying, and Flying can break Psy. I fail to see how Flying can hardly touch a well made Psychic team.
Now, Dark is definitely a bit harder (IMO it's the worst matchup for Flying) but this has been the case since XY. The threats of TTar and Greninja were extremely hard to wall, and it was just a difficult matchup for Flying.
Having said all this, I still agree with your last point. We should definitely put Zard (and Flying in general) in the backseat, as the new megas have arrived and a few of them are extremely broken, so I stand by what I said about testing the new broken megas first, then deciding if Flying still needs a nerf.
I haven't seen much of your battles with this team, but one thing I should say is that you are disregarding your own skill
Tl;dr That team being successful is more of a statement to your skill rather than Sableye's brokenness.
We definitely should have banned Charizard-X before ORAS, but we kept putting it off until when ORAS came close, then we all just said "wait until after ORAS". I disagree with your point that Flying can't dent Dark or Psychic. Flying has an equal or advantageous match-up against every type in the metagame, with the exceptions being Dark and Ice in my opinion (Ice only because Kyurem-W, Flying had a chance before it). Dark in my opinion is the worst match-up for Flying after Ice, as both Tyranitar and Greninja put tremendous pressure on Flying's defensive and offensive cores. I still think that Flying has a fighting chance though, as specially defensive Charizard-X actually puts in so much work against dark, as Sableye can't touch it, Mandibuzz can't touch it unless it has toxic, Greninja fails to 2HKO it, Bisharp can't touch it, leaving only Tyranitar, whose stone edges can be stalled out after a burn. Pokemon like scarf Togekiss and Landorus incarnate also put up great threats against Dark, so I really don't think you're giving Flying much credit here. And even Ice, if Flying can somehow get rid of Kyurem, playing well with Skarmory and stealth rocks can beat Ice. As for Psychic, I don't know what you mean, as it is a very even match-up. Landorus incarnate 2HKOS everything on Psychic, Charizard-X just flat out destroys Psychic unless Slowbro has thunder wave, and Substitute Gyarados-mega can also pose a huge threat to Psychic, especially with its newfound toy in Crunch. Dragon dance lum berry Dragonite also has the potential to sweep Psychic. The fact that stands is that Flying is still the most consistent type in the metagame. Charizard still has the same opportunities to set up as before; it never set up on offensive threats like the new megas, but it set up on walls and things that couldn't touch it, which are still part of every team. We really do need to do something to balance Flying; Charizard X is on practically every team and a fair bit of players are using the Specially defensive set, effectively giving it a part in the defensive core. You say that Charizard has never been a part of Flying's defensive core, but I argue that Flying teams have so much synergy that their offensive and defensive cores overlap, and Charizard's resistances become a valuable asset to the team's core. /endrant
P.S Happy Thanksgiving!
EDIT: completely glossed over Croven's Post ;____________;
I agree with Croven in that we should never use these kinds of things to support an argument to banning a Pokemon (Using a bad team and the supposed broken Pokemon to try to scrape out wins). People have done this before, sweeping teams with only Mawile or Clefable or using an lc Swift Swim team. I have even used a trollbirds flying team with Murkrow, Sigilyph, Chatot, Gliscor, Togekiss, and Charizard-X and found myself sweeping with the Charizard-x in many games. The fact is that this just isn't consistent and the player often plays other players of lesser skill, making the results meaningless. I'm still on the fence on Sableye-mega though because it certainly seems that it can become broken, but I think that so many types have an easy out to it as well.
I mean just so people who haven't used the Specially Defensive set that keeps being talked about here themselves, I'll just run over it here and how it works:
Charizard @ Charizardite X
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Dragon Claw
- Fire Punch / Earthquake / Flare Blitz
- Will-O-Wisp
- Roost
(Note: this is literally a set I threw together, I'm sure many players run more Speed or Attack for certain targets, and generally I prefer the set with Earthquake because being walled by Heatran is never fun)
Ok so this looks much like your standard specially defensive WoW abuser, like Mew on Psychic, but with several key differences such as the ability to actually do damage with 2 attacks with great coverage, and it can stop several threats in their tracks, most notably Greninja who has to rely on a 20% chance to 2HKO it, even before you factor in accuracy. But what makes this set so great is that you have to admire it's synergy with arguably the true staple of Flying, Skarmory.
Skarmory (ignoring abilities):
Weaknesses: Electric, Fire
Resistances: Bug, Dragon, Fairy, Flying, Grass, Normal, Psychic, Steel
Immunities: Ground, Poison
Charizard-Mega-X (ignoring abilities):
Weaknesses: Dragon, Ground, Rock
Resistances: Bug, Electric, Fire, Grass, Steel
Immunities: None
So looking at Skarmory, it's 2 weaknesses are both resisted by Charizard, the fire weakness 4x and 2 of Charizard's weaknesses being resisted or being completely ineffective vs Skarmory, while the one weakness it doesn't resist is Rock, which generally tends to be primarily physically based, meaning Skarm can wall most users of it anyway.
Charizard @ Charizardite X
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Dragon Claw
- Fire Punch / Earthquake / Flare Blitz
- Will-O-Wisp
- Roost
(Note: this is literally a set I threw together, I'm sure many players run more Speed or Attack for certain targets, and generally I prefer the set with Earthquake because being walled by Heatran is never fun)
Ok so this looks much like your standard specially defensive WoW abuser, like Mew on Psychic, but with several key differences such as the ability to actually do damage with 2 attacks with great coverage, and it can stop several threats in their tracks, most notably Greninja who has to rely on a 20% chance to 2HKO it, even before you factor in accuracy. But what makes this set so great is that you have to admire it's synergy with arguably the true staple of Flying, Skarmory.
Skarmory (ignoring abilities):
Weaknesses: Electric, Fire
Resistances: Bug, Dragon, Fairy, Flying, Grass, Normal, Psychic, Steel
Immunities: Ground, Poison
Charizard-Mega-X (ignoring abilities):
Weaknesses: Dragon, Ground, Rock
Resistances: Bug, Electric, Fire, Grass, Steel
Immunities: None
So looking at Skarmory, it's 2 weaknesses are both resisted by Charizard, the fire weakness 4x and 2 of Charizard's weaknesses being resisted or being completely ineffective vs Skarmory, while the one weakness it doesn't resist is Rock, which generally tends to be primarily physically based, meaning Skarm can wall most users of it anyway.
Just going to put this out there for Charizard x and how it fares vs every type:
Red means big threat.
Yellow means moderate, useful threat.
Green means not very useful.
Normal - Flare Blitz effectively wall breaks Porygon and Chansey and Audino for flying; Very appreciated as flying has trouble with these pokemon. With ditto, it can't really set up though, but it doesn't necessarily need to.
Fire - Can set up on Ninetales, Charizard Y, Volcarona, Victini, Rotom Heat, Heatran, Infernape. With rocks up and one dragon dance it pretty much OHKOs everything. The specially defensive set is not as useful here, but Dragon claw spam and its resistances can still put in work.
Water - Can set up on slowbro without thunder wave, Lanturn without thunder wave, Tentacruel, Suicune. Specially defensive set can quite literally sweep the whole team, the only big threat being Specs keldeo.
Electric - Loses to specially defensive set hands down. Is also demolished by the dragon dance set unless Thundurus has Thunder Wave.
Grass - Loses to both sets.
Ice - Loses to both sets (Kyurem White can break through the specially defensive set..)
Fighting - Scarf Terrakion can revenge kill it with shaky accuracy stone edge, but if it dragon dances without Terrakion it can pretty much sweep.
Ground - One of the few types that doesn't care about it. Hippowdon walls it, Excadrill and Scarf Garchomp revenge kill it.
Flying - One of the of the few Pokemon that destroy the Zapdos, Skarmory core. Landorus Therian is the only thing standing in the way of this beast, and it can be worn down very easily.
Psychic - Both sets are a big threat; Slowbro needs thunder wave or it can sweep psychic. Scarf Latios revenge kills, but not very common.
Bug - Loses to both sets.
Rock - Specially defensive set is extremely useful here, the dragon dance set can still do damage but is hindered in effectiveness.
Ghost - Loses to both sets.
Dragon - It can obviously OHKO anything on the team, the question is if it outspeeds.
Dark - Specially defensive set puts in a lot of work like I said, Dragon dance set can sweep if Mandibuzz and/or Tyranitar are weakened. Specially defensive set is one of the few things that can survive Greninja's onslaught.
Steel - Specially defensive set can wall everything besides Excadrill. If it has earthquake, it can pretty easily sweep with the dragon dance set as well. Heatran is nearly 2hkod by +1 Dragon claw if it lacks earthquake, and usually can't do much in return besides Toxic, or if it has earth power.
Fairy - Both sets can put in work, but there are thunder waves and offensive powerhouses to get past.
Red means big threat.
Yellow means moderate, useful threat.
Green means not very useful.
Normal - Flare Blitz effectively wall breaks Porygon and Chansey and Audino for flying; Very appreciated as flying has trouble with these pokemon. With ditto, it can't really set up though, but it doesn't necessarily need to.
Fire - Can set up on Ninetales, Charizard Y, Volcarona, Victini, Rotom Heat, Heatran, Infernape. With rocks up and one dragon dance it pretty much OHKOs everything. The specially defensive set is not as useful here, but Dragon claw spam and its resistances can still put in work.
Water - Can set up on slowbro without thunder wave, Lanturn without thunder wave, Tentacruel, Suicune. Specially defensive set can quite literally sweep the whole team, the only big threat being Specs keldeo.
Electric - Loses to specially defensive set hands down. Is also demolished by the dragon dance set unless Thundurus has Thunder Wave.
Grass - Loses to both sets.
Ice - Loses to both sets (Kyurem White can break through the specially defensive set..)
Fighting - Scarf Terrakion can revenge kill it with shaky accuracy stone edge, but if it dragon dances without Terrakion it can pretty much sweep.
Ground - One of the few types that doesn't care about it. Hippowdon walls it, Excadrill and Scarf Garchomp revenge kill it.
Flying - One of the of the few Pokemon that destroy the Zapdos, Skarmory core. Landorus Therian is the only thing standing in the way of this beast, and it can be worn down very easily.
Psychic - Both sets are a big threat; Slowbro needs thunder wave or it can sweep psychic. Scarf Latios revenge kills, but not very common.
Bug - Loses to both sets.
Rock - Specially defensive set is extremely useful here, the dragon dance set can still do damage but is hindered in effectiveness.
Ghost - Loses to both sets.
Dragon - It can obviously OHKO anything on the team, the question is if it outspeeds.
Dark - Specially defensive set puts in a lot of work like I said, Dragon dance set can sweep if Mandibuzz and/or Tyranitar are weakened. Specially defensive set is one of the few things that can survive Greninja's onslaught.
Steel - Specially defensive set can wall everything besides Excadrill. If it has earthquake, it can pretty easily sweep with the dragon dance set as well. Heatran is nearly 2hkod by +1 Dragon claw if it lacks earthquake, and usually can't do much in return besides Toxic, or if it has earth power.
Fairy - Both sets can put in work, but there are thunder waves and offensive powerhouses to get past.
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Hey guys now that Dragalge got adaptability do you think it will get any use.
Dragalge@ Choice Specs/Poison Plate
Ability: adaptability
EVs: 112 HP / 252 SPATK / 144 SPE
Nature: Modest/Timid
-Sludge Wave
-Draco Meteor
-Focus Blast
-Hydro Pump
This set can counter or check most fairy's in the tier. The speed ev's let it out speed all common sylveon, clefable, and azumarill sets, allowing it to quickly ko them using sludge wave. Focus Blast allows it to hit steels, and hydro pump allows it to hit ground types hard without lowering your special attack using Draco Meteor. Dragalge also pairs well with Hydreigon, Dragalge being neutral to Hydreigon quad fairy weakness and resist its bug and fighting weakness while Hydreigon is immune to Dragalge psychic and ground weakness via levitate. Dragalge special bulk also helps it tank special hits allowing it to come in on special attackers not carrying a move it is weak to and force them out.
Dragalge@ Choice Specs/Poison Plate
Ability: adaptability
EVs: 112 HP / 252 SPATK / 144 SPE
Nature: Modest/Timid
-Sludge Wave
-Draco Meteor
-Focus Blast
-Hydro Pump
This set can counter or check most fairy's in the tier. The speed ev's let it out speed all common sylveon, clefable, and azumarill sets, allowing it to quickly ko them using sludge wave. Focus Blast allows it to hit steels, and hydro pump allows it to hit ground types hard without lowering your special attack using Draco Meteor. Dragalge also pairs well with Hydreigon, Dragalge being neutral to Hydreigon quad fairy weakness and resist its bug and fighting weakness while Hydreigon is immune to Dragalge psychic and ground weakness via levitate. Dragalge special bulk also helps it tank special hits allowing it to come in on special attackers not carrying a move it is weak to and force them out.
Oh most likely just with the current up heaval of what's viable at the moment will take a bit to iron out with what is worthy of the slot and not.
A funny set with it is Haze over Hydro as it allows him to act somewhat reliably in sweeping and or possibly stopping a threat if needed. Worked comically well earlier actually.
A funny set with it is Haze over Hydro as it allows him to act somewhat reliably in sweeping and or possibly stopping a threat if needed. Worked comically well earlier actually.
Firstly, Flare Blitzing a Chansey is more suicidal because of that huge HP loss, and porygon 2 doesn't take much from a Flare Blitz and can cripple it with status.
Secondly, Lanturns carry either t-wave or confuse-ray, so zard can't set up, and SpD variant can be killed by stalling with rocks, which bulky water is famous for.
Thirdly, Electric can beat the SpD set [Check my battles with AM Tesla for reference] with Mega Ampharos 1v1. Also can be worn down by status.
Fourthly, Mamoswine or Kyurem-W can kill the spD set while Avalugg can revengekill the DD one. Also Mega-Glalie explosion if you're desperate.
Fifthly (idk why I'm counting like this). SpD set loses to MegaCham, MegaGallade, Hawlucha, takes a lot from specs keldeo (common in fight), loses a 1v1 against breloom. The DD set is trickier, where Scarf Terrakkion can kill it and megacham can use the fakeout-sack technique.
Flying: Bulky Lando-T walls Zard X pretty easily, although you have to sack something against the DD set.
Bug: Agreed, but the spD set loses to Mega-Herracross while the DD one gets shot badly by +1SpA Genesect.
>Rock - Specially defensive set is extremely useful here, the dragon dance set can still do damage but is hindered in effectiveness.
What. SpD gets oneshot by ttar stone-edge, terrakkion stone edge, Mega Diancie Diamond Storm, Rhypherior Stone Edge/EQ, Omastar Shell Smashed Earth Power.
Ghost- Agreed.
Dark: SpD gets killed by stone edge, Hydreigon and Bisharp, while DD gets rekt by Bisharp (Predictions) and Scarf ninja
Steel: SpD can be beaten by earth power tran, megagross, excadrill, can take tons from ferrothorn then revengekilled while the DD set gets walled by skarm (If Dclaw and EQ) or Tran (DClaw and Flare).
>Doesnt take much from flare blitz? (252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 148-175 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO)
>What do you mean stalling with rocks?
>Mega Ampharos is near OHKO'd and outsped with Dragon Claw
>Lando-T cant theoretically "wall" because it has no reliable recovery; it gets easily worn down, and once it's gone Charizard can pretty much do what it wants.
>I'm not sure you're thinking of the standard spD set, but it runs speed, enough to outspeed and burn/kill heracross-mega if it uses flare blitz, so it doesnt lose to it. The dd one does get hit by Genesect but if it dances it outspeeds it anyways (if jolly).
>As for rock, you are forgetting again that it can just burn those things, and there's always Skarmory.
>For dark, how exactly does the spD set lose to bisharp...? It literally hard walls bisharp with the burn and it can easily kill it with a fire stab or earthquake... And like I said it can stall out Ttar's stone edge after a burn.
>You say the spD set is beaten by earth power tran, but earthquake easily OHKOs it; megagross is burned ; as for excadrill yes I said it beats it, and there's skarmory for it. The dd set can also be without roost and just demolish the whole team with flare blitz + eq.
You can change the base stats and typing in the calc.
Mega Medicham
Typing: Fighting / Psychic
Stats: 60 / 100 / 85 / 80 / 85 / 100 (510)
Trait: Pure Power
Mega Medicham is probably the most effective wallbreaker in the game. Thanks to a large base attack of 100 and Pure Power, it is able to achieve 299 Attack without an attack boosting nature and 328 attack with an attack boosting nature. There's not many types that can handle this, as most physical walls will get shredded by two High Jump Kicks, and thanks to its good coverage with Ice Punch and a decent STAB Zen Headbutt, there's little that can take it. To sum it up, when Mega Medicham switches in, you have to decide: "Okay, what's gonna die?"
How each type fares:
Normal: Unquestionably destroyed after Staraptor and any scarfers are dead. High Jump Kick anhilliates everything. Requires the new Megas to somewhat check it. Mega Pidgeot can outspeed and hit it with a Hurricane, and Lopunny outspeeds and should take it out with Fake Out + Frustration at a point. I don't know how well Audino takes an HJK, because it hasn't been edited into the PS calculator.
Here is the damage M Audino takes, taking its 103/126 physical bulk and Normal Fairy typing into account.
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Audino: 217-256 (52.9 - 62.4%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
It stills get 2HKOed which doesn't make it much of a counter.
1. Set SR and keep roaring to wear down
2. You need Mega Amph to beat Zard, what else can that do against fly that others cant?
3. Save Lando-T, make plays.
4.The DD one makes genesect get a +1 SpA boost which hits Zard HARD, while the SpD set is harder to take down and I agree that it can kill mega-herra, scarf herra can kill and if you switch to skarm and they double switch to volca and starts to quiver dance and have HP Ground it's gg.
5. >Burn those things.
>Faster than you
>Burnt Ttar 2hkos Zard with Stone Edge even if it's unboosted in Atk EVs
6. Ttar uses SR on you. You defog, he predicts and switches to Bisharp, kills your wall. You go to Zard, WoW it, it has lum and uses Knock off, which hits really hard, if you feel like attacking the oppenent predicts and sucker punches you to oblivion.
7. SpD set doesn't carry EQ, if it does then that set is made to counterteam steel. Bring in exca and double switch to zone to kill skarm. Predict :]
A +1 Volc is never going to OHKO a Mega Zard X with HP Ground (without Rocks) no matter what set either is running.
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 232-274 (78.1 - 92.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Best casr scenario, but most volcs are bulky)
+1 0 SpA Volcarona Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 192-228 (64.6 - 76.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(That chance for KO is pretty bad)
Granted, bulk volc can take the unboosted flare blitz and live (if no rocks) but the offensive set dies in pretty much every situation.
The big thing you also have to remember is that this is Flying. And flying does a darn good job of removing rocks and can set them up too. While if you're using volc, you are most likely using bug. Meaning you have very few switch ins to either remove or set up rocks. Mega scizor is inpractical in this match up because you want to keep rocks on flying's side of the field. And it is greatly threatened by Skarm, Heat wave Zapdos, and Mega Zard X. Even Lando in some cases. Foretress is a one time thing to remove and set up while skarm and zap can keep pressure constantly. Armaldo is kinda of the best bet for both removal and set up imo. (Shuckle is taunt/set up fodder. Very easy for flying to play around). But even with Armaldo, skarm walls it easy. Especially if it is rocky helmet because it limits the amount of Rapid Spins you can use. Roost and leftover just out bulks it and it can either force it out with whirlwind or whittle it down with brave bird.
So, it practically every scenario, it's easy for Flying to keep rocks out and remove ones are their side of the field. Bug will only ever get the chance to set up rocks or remove them before the opponent switches out to something that forces out bug's set up.
Also, I didn't even mention Togekiss, who if being used will wall Volc to kingdom come. So, Zard doesn't even need to worry about coming in.
I agree with that, every good bug user should know how to beat fly. I know you do lol, but yeah, flying's a tough obstacle to bug (I am sure I have a 90% win of Fly v Bug so I know)
I know the previous arguments as I also argued on previous pages bro. And I acknowledge usage can't be brought up as an argument, but when there is absolutely zero team on the ladder using it, and that in my opinion, the only way to know if something is really broken or not is to test it / face it in battle (you know, this is the basis of a Suspect test, to test things), I don't know how all of you can say it deserves a ban. By the way banning something having zero usage still sounds pretty absurd to me but this is not the point.
For the record, I don't think Kyurem-W is all that big of an issue either compared to things like Mega Slowbro or Mega Sableye, but you just said that you acknowledge usage isn't an argument and then brought it up as an argument again. It sounds like you think no one has ever used Kyurem-W ever, or that the only time any of us battle is on the ladder. I have faced Kyurem-W plenty of times but I almost never ladder, and I know for a fact that most of us here have faced it at least once, if they battle monotype at all. You cannot say that a Pokemon that is on essentially every Ice team in existence at the moment has zero usage because it would be a blatant lie.
If you think the reason to not ban it is because no one here has faced it, then you're using a false argument.
ah just want ya'll to know I'm back and let's just say I have a lot of input to add. Look Forward to it.
If you're too lazy to ready: Suspect Greninja on Water
Although Greninja gets 2 new moves in ORAS, it still suffers the 4 moves Syndrome.
Facing Greninja is different than using it, the users that face Greninja thinks it's so damn good but the truth it's hard to use it.
Without Greninja Dark has a mediocre special offense, the other notable good Special Attacker is Hydreigon with good coverage moves.
Using Scarfninja removes from it's power, and give it more speed but using Specs/Orbedninja Boost it's Special attack and make it slower compared as other scarf users.
If Greninja gets banned on dark:
Dark Would run on Greninja: Surf/Hydro, Ice Beam, Gunk Shot, xtrasensory to deal with it's weakness.
- Team would be Vulnerable against Voltswitching Thundurus
- Team Would get destroyed by d-dance mega altaria, or Hyper Voice Variant.
- Team would lack the power to defeat flying, T-tar can't do the work alone we all know that. Specially
- Team would suffer from Focus Blast Charizard Y + Fire Offense. We also know that T-tar can't do the work alone.
- Team would suffer vs Disadvantage more.
- Team would also have a hard time vs ground
Would it nerf Flying too much? I'm certain that the answer is no for this one, I feel it'd bring Flying back down to earth with all the other types.
#SaveGreninja on Dark
#SaveGreninja4DarkArmy[/quote]
Only thing I don't really agree with is your first point. Dark is pretty much vulnerable to Thundurus with or without Greninja, especially Thundurus-I. Nobody is going to sit in and let their Thundurus take an Ice Beam, and if they predict it coming in or switching out, they can just Volt Switch. Superpower from Incarnate or Focus Miss from Thundy-T puts dents in a lot of things. I agree with the other points and think they're pretty spot on.
Not really sure I'm behind suspecting Greninja on either as I think it's just very solid, I don't really consider this broken, and I have used Flyings during various periods of time in Monotype.
Suspecting Zard X is an idea I've discussed with DM, and I'm fully behind it. It makes the Electric v. Flying type much more even in my eyes. Overall, what I think it does for other Monotypes is help to wear down Zapdos, as outside of Ground/Flying immunity to Electric moves from Gliscor or Landorus-Therian, and Volt Absorb from Thundurus-Therian, the fact is that Zapdos is going to take more hits and more often. Yes, good play can keep the Zapdos alive, but forcing it to take more hits offers more opportunities to take it down.
In all honesty, I don't think Flying users can really complain all that much either, given that you still have access to Gyarados-Mega, Mega Charizard Y, and with the addition of ORAS, Altaria-Mega. Flying would still be a very potent Monotype in my eyes. This is coming from myself, who has easily attained 1600s with Flying Monotype without having ever used Mega Charizard X.
You are literally contradicting yourself. You can't argue you've seen all the arguments and say there is no argument, there were numerous replays resented in this thread from many users including the infamous replay where Kyurem-W 6-0's a Steel team. This argument literally has no basis, please present something that is actually relevant to the pokemon itself rather than it's usage, because no-one has been able to make a convincing one yet that actual has anything to do about the brokenness of Kyurem-W and how it simply devastates a large number of Monotype teams. Just to clarify, this means don't use usage or don't use the argument that Ice was terrible before, neither of these are valid.
I think this actually looks really cool for Dragon teams, as it can devastate 5/6 members of a Fairy team(Sludge Wave for the majority, Hydro Pump for Diancie) the only member it struggles with is Mawile, who carries an immunity to both STABs. It's just a pity it doesn't get a Fire move or Earth Power, but paired with a Mawile check, something like Hydreigon which resists Sucker Punch, can outspeed and KO with Fire Blast and also incidentally has fairly decent synergy with Dragalge, being immune to both Psychic and Ground attacks.
It doesn't get e-power but it does get focus miss!
Still, the fact it can at least help dragon in fairy battles is some rejoice. Small question to most though, we waiting bout a week or so in order to get a feel of the Meta before a suspect officially begins?
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