Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]

[Zane0144]

You know, with Mega Zard X gone, banning Gene again could be more reasonable as well. I was completely against it before because after 1 d-dance Mega Zard X could either wall any bug or have a switch out to it. Galvantula, even with HP ice, just wasn't able to combat flying with that thing around. Volt Absorb Thundurus and Lando are threats to be sure and excellent switch ins to electric types, but they also don't resist a good HP ice. Meanwhile Zard X could always eat up anything Galv could throw at it making it just not viable and Gene all the more necessary.

Hp Ice will 2hko bulky Tando-t. Thundurus-T is 2hko after SR. Lando-I and Scarf Lando-T cannot switch in with SR up. Throw a life orb or some specs on there and you've got a good chunk of damage.

I still believe to this day that the best thing gene brought bug was Ice beam. Bug already had momentum with tons of volt switchers and U-turners. And while I would definitely not love being without Ice Beam again. I can admit it wouldn't be necessary. (Welcome back to dragon being hard again :/)

 

[Inwhale]

You know, with Mega Zard X gone, banning Gene again could be more reasonable as well. I was completely against it before because after 1 d-dance Mega Zard X could either wall any bug or have a switch out to it. Galvantula, even with HP ice, just wasn't able to combat flying with that thing around. Volt Absorb Thundurus and Lando are threats to be sure and excellent switch ins to electric types, but they also don't resist a good HP ice. Meanwhile Zard X could always eat up anything Galv could throw at it making it just not viable and Gene all the more necessary.

Hp Ice will 2hko bulky Tando-t. Thundurus-T is 2hko after SR. Lando-I and Scarf Lando-T cannot switch in with SR up. Throw a life orb or some specs on there and you've got a good chunk of damage.

I still believe to this day that the best thing gene brought bug was Ice beam. Bug already had momentum with tons of volt switchers and U-turners. And while I would definitely not love being without Ice Beam again. I can admit it wouldn't be necessary. (Welcome back to dragon being hard again :/)

However, since Galvantula does in fact only 2hko bulky lando-t and thundurus-t after stealth rock due to it's terrible SpA, the two can dispatch galvantula with relative ease, especially if the sash is broken with rocks. without a sash, galvantula will just die to anything it doesn't outspeed due to how frail it is, and while it can dent some of the biggest offensive threats to bug on a flying team, a situation where it is actually able to take anything out is remarkably rare, as specially defensive zapdos will eat up anything galv can throw at it with ease, and is by far a safer switch into galvantula than thundurus-t or landorus. Moreover, this situation forces the bug trainer to either predict the switch into zapdos to switch to a proper physical answer, which is to say, a physical attacker faster than it, or have to facetank whatever the bird throws at it, which could be the super effective in most cases heat wave, the 100% paralizing anything but galvantula discharge or, rarely, as it benefits the flying player the least, toxic, then you get the inevitable switch into a physically defensive mon, such as skarmory. Sure it's all mindgames to predict for double switches to get good damage in, but the best of flying's walls have reliable recovery, while bug has roost on volc, if even that. Add in the additional defensive pokemon that flying usually runs, and winning the prediction wars in the matchup take an absurd amount of luck, especially since the SpA side of bug's offense tend to be very frail to hazards. However, genesect allows bug teams to have a constant threat in this matchup, as it makes the flying player have to make decisions, rather than just an automated switching into a pokemon that will be 3HKO-d at best, while simultaneously threatening to kill whatever it just switched into, possibly even OHKOing it.

While charizard x remains a huge threat to a bug team that can be extremely difficult to deal with due to it's typing, the fact of the matter is, removing both it and genesect would heavily tilt the matchup further into flying's favour, and while you could say that the typing advantage matches are meant to be this way, i would still like to have a realistic fighting chance against the most popular type on the ladder, while using my favourite type. If banning charizard-x from flying would inevitably lead to genesect's removal from bug teams, then i would be adamant about keeping chari-x on flying, and this is solely considering the matchup vs flying, as i find it to not be bug's best pokemon against any other type. I am aware that this post is incredibly biased, as most other type users would gladly see that annoyingly hard-hitting pivot to rather disappear, but again, i would rather have the matchup more interesting (and fun) due to the presence of both chari-x and genesect than having to hope i guess right every single turn to win a matchup.

 

[DoW]

However, since Galvantula does in fact only 2hko bulky lando-t and thundurus-t after stealth rock due to it's terrible SpA, the two can dispatch galvantula with relative ease, especially if the sash is broken with rocks. without a sash, galvantula will just die to anything it doesn't outspeed due to how frail it is, and while it can dent some of the biggest offensive threats to bug on a flying team, a situation where it is actually able to take anything out is remarkably rare, as specially defensive zapdos will eat up anything galv can throw at it with ease, and is by far a safer switch into galvantula than thundurus-t or landorus.

252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 338-400 (88.4 - 104.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

Sash is far more common to almost guarantee the web, sure, but on an offensive bug team LO is still certainly a possibility to consider, especially if you don't particularly need the web. Note the above calc is an OHKO after SR or if the lando isn't running HP EVs.

 

[Acast]

Ok I was originally skeptical that Mega Sableye was so ridiculously good that it required a suspect, but after a battle with it I changed my mind.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-187721494
When a Dark team has absolutely zero issues sweeping a Fighting team 6-0, you know something isn't right. I admit, I was probably outplayed on a few occasions during that battle. However, the extent to which Mega Sableye just destroys fighting teams in general is ridiculous. After this battle I looked for a way to deal with Mega Sableye by adding a Fairy move and the only Fighting type that learns a Fairy move is Gallade with Dazzling Gleam. Since regular and mega Gallade both only have 65 base SpA and since Mega Sableye always has Calm Mind, it's not even worth considering. It seems to me that a well-played Mega Sableye is essentially uncounterable for any Fighting team and this thing needs a suspect test, especially on Dark teams.

 

[Croven]

Ok I was originally skeptical that Mega Sableye was so ridiculously good that it required a suspect, but after a battle with it I changed my mind.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-187721494
When a Dark team has absolutely zero issues sweeping a Fighting team 6-0, you know something isn't right. I admit, I was probably outplayed on a few occasions during that battle. However, the extent to which Mega Sableye just destroys fighting teams in general is ridiculous. After this battle I looked for a way to deal with Mega Sableye by adding a Fairy move and the only Fighting type that learns a Fairy move is Gallade with Dazzling Gleam. Since regular and mega Gallade both only have 65 base SpA and since Mega Sableye always has Calm Mind, it's not even worth considering. It seems to me that a well-played Mega Sableye is essentially uncounterable for any Fighting team and this thing needs a suspect test, especially on Dark teams.

I'm still on the fence about Mega Sableye's suspect, so I'm just going to say that there are a few checks, I believe. Sub CM Keldeo is great, and just destroys Dark in general. If you have that, (and this comes from personal experience), it's more of a matter of who can get their CM'er in at the right time to pressure the opponent, and Keldeo can still win even if you send Sableye out first. No access to calc atm, but Shadow Ball from Sableye does pretty pitiful damage, and if you run Dark Pulse you'll do even less. Keldeo simply has to fish for a Scald burn or crit to win, which tbh is pretty easy. You don't need a Fairy move to beat it. Also, Infernape learns SD, which I honestly had no idea of. SD Nape would completely shit on Sableye, being a boosting physical attacker that can't get burned. It also heavily pressures Dark in general, as if the Dark user tries to attack with Shadow Ball or whatever, nothing will take a +2 CC or Fire Punch. Sub Sitrus Hawlucha can also be used, and other sets like that which I have run into on the ladder myself, and which have given me a lot of trouble when I try to sweep. Many of these sets aren't really farfetched and are perfectly viable in Fighting monos, and can do well vs any other type.

From my own experience on the ladder (and from the small amount of tourneys I've entered), the reason many people are having trouble with these new megas is because they are using XY Monotype teams with a new fancy mega slapped on. Looking at many of the teams I have battled, if I simply change their Gallade to a Medicham or Metagross to a Mawile, I find myself with a very standard XY team. IMO, we can adapt to the new megas, including Sableye, but if you have any arguments, feel free to fire them back at me, as I do not claim to know everything, and could very well be wrong. So yeah, show me where I'm wrong or flawed, I could benefit from that too n_n

Btw, I will be making a Fighting team soon and laddering with it, to get away from theorymonning and see if Fighting can actually handle Mega Sableye while also being able to beat top threats such as Water, Psychic, and Flying. That's all I have to say for now! ^^

 

[Acast]

I'm still on the fence about Mega Sableye's suspect, so I'm just going to say that there are a few checks, I believe. Sub CM Keldeo is great, and just destroys Dark in general. If you have that, (and this comes from personal experience), it's more of a matter of who can get their CM'er in at the right time to pressure the opponent, and Keldeo can still win even if you send Sableye out first. No access to calc atm, but Shadow Ball from Sableye does pretty pitiful damage, and if you run Dark Pulse you'll do even less. Keldeo simply has to fish for a Scald burn or crit to win, which tbh is pretty easy. You don't need a Fairy move to beat it. Also, Infernape learns SD, which I honestly had no idea of. SD Nape would completely shit on Sableye, being a boosting physical attacker that can't get burned. It also heavily pressures Dark in general, as if the Dark user tries to attack with Shadow Ball or whatever, nothing will take a +2 CC or Fire Punch. Sub Sitrus Hawlucha can also be used, and other sets like that which I have run into on the ladder myself, and which have given me a lot of trouble when I try to sweep. Many of these sets aren't really farfetched and are perfectly viable in Fighting monos, and can do well vs any other type.

From my own experience on the ladder (and from the small amount of tourneys I've entered), the reason many people are having trouble with these new megas is because they are using XY Monotype teams with a new fancy mega slapped on. Looking at many of the teams I have battled, if I simply change their Gallade to a Medicham or Metagross to a Mawile, I find myself with a very standard XY team. IMO, we can adapt to the new megas, including Sableye, but if you have any arguments, feel free to fire them back at me, as I do not claim to know everything, and could very well be wrong. So yeah, show me where I'm wrong or flawed, I could benefit from that too n_n

Btw, I will be making a Fighting team soon and laddering with it, to get away from theorymonning and see if Fighting can actually handle Mega Sableye while also being able to beat top threats such as Water, Psychic, and Flying. That's all I have to say for now! ^^

Yeah you make some good points. I'll definitely have to consider that SD Infernape. I also had A Hunk bring to my attention that Scrafty is a possible check, assuming the Sableye doesn't have Dazzling Gleam, which most don't. I misspoke when I said Mega Sableye was uncounterable for Fighting teams, but I still firmly believe it deserves a suspect test

 

[Freeroamer]

Right guys, as much as I hate to distract you from potential suspects, I'm just going to bring you some changes we'll be making to some of the OM tours in the room. These are the changes we'll be making:

1) STABmons - no Normal-type teams: anyone who has tried to enter these tours with any team other than a Normal team will be in favour of this. A lot of people, myself included see Flying as very powerful and slightly centralizing in the standard metagame. However this is nothing compared to Normal type teams in this metagame, if you attempt to run another type you almost have to fully dedicate your team to try and beat it. To understand why this is you simply have to look at the myriad of powerful moves any Normal type or Pokemon that evolved from a Normal type gets access to: Belly Drum, ExtremeSpeed, Shell Smash, Recover, Milk Drink, Boomburst, Baton Pass, Fake Out and Transform. This opens up a plethora of options and strategies which when combined with a whole team that has access to these moves is just far too overwhelming to deal with.

2) AAA - no Gale Wings: Yeah for anyone who was involved/around at the time of the Talonflame ban should understand why this is a problem in the metagame. Gale Wings was deemed too strong in the standard metagame on a pokemon with base 81 Attack. Now consider that same ability has been made available to Staraptor and Braviary, who have 125 and 123 base Attack respectively. Both have their niches over Talonflame too, in that Braviary can run an extremely powerful Bulk Up set and Staraptor has access to fantastic coverage thanks to Close Combat, while Braviary has this too with Superpower. Basically these two present the same problems that Talonflame did in the standard metagame but to a greater degree and run through the Bug, Grass and Fighting teams in the same way Talonflame did. (We'll be keeping Talon banned too, just for consistency with our standard banlist.)

These changes are supposed to encourage more variety in the OM's, which sounds ironic when we're banning a whole type from one of the metagames, but honestly Normal teams single handedly makes type viable or not, and this is never healthy, even if we only occasionally run tours in it.

These are the only restrictions we plan to place on OM tours, at the end of the day they are supposed to be simple and easy to follow so please don't post saying every Normal Type Pokemon should be banned as your post will simply be ignored. However do let us know if you think these changes improve things! n_n

 

[n64lord]

I'm being underwhelmed by greninja usage lately... people are still using the scarf set on teams that do not need suprise elimination of scarfed pokemon.. and the lack of power is costing them against bulky offense, predicted u-turn often leads to a switch out on a pokemon only greninja is equipped to face, and give a lot of leeway to other team. Well I have decayed a bit...

Mega sablye still seems overcentralizing to me. I still don't see much of a cost to using megaslowbro since it will usually stay in regenartor form for a long time against teams where the repeated physical support is neccesary, and it hardly minds the loss of lefties, however, I don't really feel it's "sweeper" form is really easy to use, and it almost always needs to get certain threats out of the way to sweep, sometimes to even get a second kill.

Mega sharpedo is underwhelming me in the extreme.

 

[Salemance]

Right guys, as much as I hate to distract you from potential suspects, I'm just going to bring you some changes we'll be making to some of the OM tours in the room. These are the changes we'll be making:

1) STABmons - no Normal-type teams: anyone who has tried to enter these tours with any team other than a Normal team will be in favour of this. A lot of people, myself included see Flying as very powerful and slightly centralizing in the standard metagame. However this is nothing compared to Normal type teams in this metagame, if you attempt to run another type you almost have to fully dedicate your team to try and beat it. To understand why this is you simply have to look at the myriad of powerful moves any Normal type or Pokemon that evolved from a Normal type gets access to: Belly Drum, ExtremeSpeed, Shell Smash, Recover, Milk Drink, Boomburst, Baton Pass, Fake Out and Transform. This opens up a plethora of options and strategies which when combined with a whole team that has access to these moves is just far too overwhelming to deal with.

2) AAA - no Gale Wings: Yeah for anyone who was involved/around at the time of the Talonflame ban should understand why this is a problem in the metagame. Gale Wings was deemed too strong in the standard metagame on a pokemon with base 81 Attack. Now consider that same ability has been made available to Staraptor and Braviary, who have 125 and 123 base Attack respectively. Both have their niches over Talonflame too, in that Braviary can run an extremely powerful Bulk Up set and Staraptor has access to fantastic coverage thanks to Close Combat, while Braviary has this too with Superpower. Basically these two present the same problems that Talonflame did in the standard metagame but to a greater degree and run through the Bug, Grass and Fighting teams in the same way Talonflame did. (We'll be keeping Talon banned too, just for consistency with our standard banlist.)

These changes are supposed to encourage more variety in the OM's, which sounds ironic when we're banning a whole type from one of the metagames, but honestly Normal teams single handedly makes type viable or not, and this is never healthy, even if we only occasionally run tours in it.

These are the only restrictions we plan to place on OM tours, at the end of the day they are supposed to be simple and easy to follow so please don't post saying every Normal Type Pokemon should be banned as your post will simply be ignored. However do let us know if you think these changes improve things! n_n

Well, not to sound too ridiculous but, FINALLY! :D

I'm being underwhelmed by greninja usage lately... people are still using the scarf set on teams that do not need suprise elimination of scarfed pokemon.. and the lack of power is costing them against bulky offense, predicted u-turn often leads to a switch out on a pokemon only greninja is equipped to face, and give a lot of leeway to other team. Well I have decayed a bit...

Mega sablye still seems overcentralizing to me. I still don't see much of a cost to using megaslowbro since it will usually stay in regenartor form for a long time against teams where the repeated physical support is neccesary, and it hardly minds the loss of lefties, however, I don't really feel it's "sweeper" form is really easy to use, and it almost always needs to get certain threats out of the way to sweep, sometimes to even get a second kill.

Mega sharpedo is underwhelming me in the extreme.

See, I've found Sharpedo in the two etremes myself. It either does its job effortlessly or just doesn't.

 

[Tyke]

Right guys, as much as I hate to distract you from potential suspects, I'm just going to bring you some changes we'll be making to some of the OM tours in the room. These are the changes we'll be making:

1) STABmons - no Normal-type teams: anyone who has tried to enter these tours with any team other than a Normal team will be in favour of this. A lot of people, myself included see Flying as very powerful and slightly centralizing in the standard metagame. However this is nothing compared to Normal type teams in this metagame, if you attempt to run another type you almost have to fully dedicate your team to try and beat it. To understand why this is you simply have to look at the myriad of powerful moves any Normal type or Pokemon that evolved from a Normal type gets access to: Belly Drum, ExtremeSpeed, Shell Smash, Recover, Milk Drink, Boomburst, Baton Pass, Fake Out and Transform. This opens up a plethora of options and strategies which when combined with a whole team that has access to these moves is just far too overwhelming to deal with.

2) AAA - no Gale Wings: Yeah for anyone who was involved/around at the time of the Talonflame ban should understand why this is a problem in the metagame. Gale Wings was deemed too strong in the standard metagame on a pokemon with base 81 Attack. Now consider that same ability has been made available to Staraptor and Braviary, who have 125 and 123 base Attack respectively. Both have their niches over Talonflame too, in that Braviary can run an extremely powerful Bulk Up set and Staraptor has access to fantastic coverage thanks to Close Combat, while Braviary has this too with Superpower. Basically these two present the same problems that Talonflame did in the standard metagame but to a greater degree and run through the Bug, Grass and Fighting teams in the same way Talonflame did. (We'll be keeping Talon banned too, just for consistency with our standard banlist.)

These changes are supposed to encourage more variety in the OM's, which sounds ironic when we're banning a whole type from one of the metagames, but honestly Normal teams single handedly makes type viable or not, and this is never healthy, even if we only occasionally run tours in it.

These are the only restrictions we plan to place on OM tours, at the end of the day they are supposed to be simple and easy to follow so please don't post saying every Normal Type Pokemon should be banned as your post will simply be ignored. However do let us know if you think these changes improve things! n_n

+1

I agree with these proposed changes.

Though I'd go further and ban any pokemon with access to the normal movepool (Altaria, Azumarill, the Eeveelutions).

 

[scpinion]

+1

I agree with these proposed changes.

Though I'd go further and ban any pokemon with access to the normal movepool (Altaria, Azumarill, the Eeveelutions).

There is an enforcement side to this rule as well. While this sounds great in theory, making sure everyone entering the tour realizes this, then going through and enforcing it will detract from the OM tours. No one likes to see a string of dq's at the beginning of every tour b/c the rules are complex.

 

[Barida]

Grenina The OP Frog.

Hello, This is the Imperium League Champion Barida and i have some words about the Op Water/Dark Pokemon Greninja. I feel as if Greninja is really over powered in the monotype meta. People use words as Flying is overpowered, but there is not one good check to Greninja on a flying monotype team. There has been times when people say Articuno is a great check but due to rocks, Articuno really cant touch Greninja. Then on many Dark Monotype Teams, they Cary Bisharps or Tyranitars that pretty much destroy Articuno. Greninja alows obtaining Gunk Shot makes it harder for Psychic to beat it, Gunk Shot Ohkos Mega Gardivoir.
4 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Gardevoir: 445-525 (160.6 - 189.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
What are you going to freaking do to something that outspeeds alot of things on psychic. This Greninja also rapes Ground with the Grass Knot/Ice beam/Scald and Hydro pump, combo as well, there is not one pokemon on a ground monotype team eatting a hit to greninja. Greninja gunk shot even fears the likes of fairys to, look how much Greninja does to a great wall like clefable.
4 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 283-338 (71.8 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Like that is a clean 2hko and a moon blast is not killing a Poison Type Greninja.
This thing is super broken in are freaking meta, and it needs to be banned. Then it gets his new Friend in Mega Sableye like how do you kill the monster. Greninja should be erased from the meta and i should not see its tongue all over teams like this again. By the way here is some calcs of greninja vs walls for these types.
4 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 338-400 (90.6 - 107.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zapdos: 252-299 (65.6 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Now imagine when hes specs.


Sincerely,
Imp Barida

 

[Nochman.EXE]

Ok I was originally skeptical that Mega Sableye was so ridiculously good that it required a suspect, but after a battle with it I changed my mind.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-187721494
When a Dark team has absolutely zero issues sweeping a Fighting team 6-0, you know something isn't right. I admit, I was probably outplayed on a few occasions during that battle. However, the extent to which Mega Sableye just destroys fighting teams in general is ridiculous. After this battle I looked for a way to deal with Mega Sableye by adding a Fairy move and the only Fighting type that learns a Fairy move is Gallade with Dazzling Gleam. Since regular and mega Gallade both only have 65 base SpA and since Mega Sableye always has Calm Mind, it's not even worth considering. It seems to me that a well-played Mega Sableye is essentially uncounterable for any Fighting team and this thing needs a suspect test, especially on Dark teams.

Not taking away from your central point, but Fighting Teams have Keldeo to break through the Calm Mind Sableye-Mega Set. The Sets Keldeo can run to accomplish this is thr Specs, LO, or the more common Calm Mind which can Set up next to a Sableye-Mega and take advantage of its Rotom-Wash'ish Special Defenses and use it as fodder. In addition to this, Fighting also has access to Pokes that are Immune to Burns that can utilize CB, LO, or just straight up raw power to break it down. The Mons that come to mind are Guts Heracross and Banded/LO Infernape, for example.

So, Fighting does have options available to it to help it get last Sableye-Mega, and few of them detract from its viability as a Type (you aren't forced to run awkward Sets that serve no other purpose), but should rather be Suspected because of how it can use a significant portion of the Defensive Metagame as fodder.

Also, to all of you who feel it's invincible after a couple of Calm Minds, asking "how dro you beat this thing", the answer is Fairymons. This means Psychic with Gardevoir and Water with Banded Azumarill, probably the only two Types along with Fire or Dragon that it can't use as Set Up bait off the top of my head.

Other than that, the more immediate issue after Salamence-Mega is Greninja, followed by Mega Gallade and Medicham. This has been mentioned, but it really needs to keep being mentioned until some action is taken.

 

[Croven]

Grenina The OP Frog.

Hello, This is the Imperium League Champion Barida and i have some words about the Op Water/Dark Pokemon Greninja. I feel as if Greninja is really over powered in the monotype meta. People use words as Flying is overpowered, but there is not one good check to Greninja on a flying monotype team. There has been times when people say Articuno is a great check but due to rocks, Articuno really cant touch Greninja. Then on many Dark Monotype Teams, they Cary Bisharps or Tyranitars that pretty much destroy Articuno. Greninja alows obtaining Gunk Shot makes it harder for Psychic to beat it, Gunk Shot Ohkos Mega Gardivoir.
4 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Gardevoir: 445-525 (160.6 - 189.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
What are you going to freaking do to something that outspeeds alot of things on psychic. This Greninja also rapes Ground with the Grass Knot/Ice beam/Scald and Hydro pump, combo as well, there is not one pokemon on a ground monotype team eatting a hit to greninja. Greninja gunk shot even fears the likes of fairys to, look how much Greninja does to a great wall like clefable.
4 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 283-338 (71.8 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Like that is a clean 2hko and a moon blast is not killing a Poison Type Greninja.
This thing is super broken in are freaking meta, and it needs to be banned. Then it gets his new Friend in Mega Sableye like how do you kill the monster. Greninja should be erased from the meta and i should not see its tongue all over teams like this again. By the way here is some calcs of greninja vs walls for these types.
4 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 338-400 (90.6 - 107.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zapdos: 252-299 (65.6 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Now imagine when hes specs.


Sincerely,
Imp Barida

OK, so I kinda agree with Barida here. Greninja is a really threatening mon in general. For example, look at OU for a bit. In XY, they were even debating a suspect for it, and that was without Gunk Shot and Low Kick, two moves that really amplify its sweeping/cleaning/breaking capabilities. In OU, there are very few mons that are regarded as checks or counters to a Greninja, as it can run whatever coverage it needs to wipe through your "check". You might use a Ferrothorn, and win vs a non-HP Fire variant. But then you get flat out 6-0'ed by an HP Fire variant. You might decide to run Rotom-W along with this Ferrothorn, to be able to counter pretty much all Greninja sets. And that's when you realize that you dedicated a third of your team to one mon, and it is going to be incredibly difficult to deal with the rest of the meta while also being prepared for every Greninja.

Now you look at Monotype.

There are even fewer checks or counters to this frog in Monotype, seeing as each team only has one type to pick from. Nearly any team can be absolutely steamrolled by Greninja, simply because they lack a solid check or counter. What amazes me the most about Greninja is the fact that it has the movepool to run through any type it wants to. For example, if you hate Flying, run Rock Slide and Ice Beam. If you hate Fairy, run Gunk Shot and Hydro Pump/HP Fire. If you hate Fire, run Rock Slide and Hydro Pump (or another Water move). If you dislike Fighting, run Shadow Sneak and Extrasensory (or even Acrobatics or something).

It has the movepool to theoretically shut down every type. Sure, you can scout for its movepool, but if it has the coverage to hit your check, then what? You can't do anything and it basically gets a kill every time it comes in. If it doesn't have the movepool to hit your check, then congratulations! You drew the right card and can win against this Greninja! But then another one comes along, and it has the right coverage, and bop. You are dead. This is the thing I don't like about Greninja. It is basically a "luck of the draw" scenario when facing it. You either got lucky that your opponent doesn't have the coverage to hit you, or you got unlucky and he can flat out 6-0 you (barring revenge killers, who aren't a reliable method of checking anyways).

Also, Greninja isn't lacking in power at all. Protean gives him STAB on every hit, making up for his measly base 103 SpAtk and 95 Atk. Combine this with LO, and you basically have an Aerilate or Pixilate boost. STAB + 1.3x (aka LO), which iirc adds up to every move of his hitting 1.95x as hard as it normally should, which is basically an Adaptability boost. Just pointing out that it isn't lacking in power in the slightest, which most of us know from experience.

Tl;dr Greninja is too adaptable. Any team can slap him on to cover their weaknesses, and it does it extraordinarily well. It is too fast, too strong, and has too wide of a movepool. IMO, suspect for both Dark and Water. Water should be a given, but if its loss is too much for Dark to take, then it's possible to put him back on. However, I still see it best for him to be suspected for both. Playing with him and against him has shown me enough. Suspect it now.

 

[DoW]

Grenina The OP Frog.

Hello, This is the Imperium League Champion Barida and i have some words about the Op Water/Dark Pokemon Greninja. I feel as if Greninja is really over powered in the monotype meta. People use words as Flying is overpowered, but there is not one good check to Greninja on a flying monotype team.

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 65-77 (19.6 - 23.2%) -- possible 5HKO

Sure it's not a counter due to grass knot, but TBH if you can't predict you can't complain when you lose. If this isn't a check I don't know what is.

If greninja runs LO you can switch to a scarf on a predicted grass knot, and suddenly the momentum's yours. If it's scarf life's even easier.

I'm not gonna say greninja isn't strong. It's got a very nice movepool allowing it to screw over many things if it so chooses. But I'm really not sure it's as broken as you're making it out to be, at least against flying. I mean, I don't run megados, but if it's scarf it's easy enough to outplay and if it's LO you can wear it down with hazards, LO and at the same time play around it to get momentum back. It makes games hard, sure, but it's nowhere near as difficult to beat for flying as talon was for grass, for example.

I'm also not saying it shouldn't be suspected. I just want to point out that greninja has a number of problems, namely:
1) It's got the worst case of 4mss imaginable now that it's got gunk shot. Sure, it can screw over one type if you particularly want it to, but if you're running Ice beam, Extrasensory and HP Fire for grass teams then it's not going to be as useful as you might like against other teams. It seems harder to beat than it is because of this.
2) It's weak. I know, protean is an amazing ability which allows it to smash faces. But as I've shown in past calcs, if it runs scarf then it really struggles to get important KOs and if it runs LO it's prone to being worn down and/or revenge killed. And let's get real here, it's got base 103 special attack. If that sounds a lot to you then I suggest going back to PU where you came from. This tier contains monstrocities like Kyurem-B, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Tyranitar, and those are the ones we consider standard and nowhere near worth considering for a ban.


The things we should be looking at, I think, are whether greninja presents a real threat to a number of teams using any single standard set or small number of standard sets. If it can beat one team with each set, sure, that's annoying. But only if it can pose a significant threat to a number of teams with a single set should it really be considered for suspect I think. Moreover, can we please make sure not to get checks and counters confused? It makes it far easier to understand what's being discussed if we're all on the same wavelength.

--End Rant--​

 

[Croven]

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 65-77 (19.6 - 23.2%) -- possible 5HKO

Sure it's not a counter due to grass knot, but TBH if you can't predict you can't complain when you lose. If this isn't a check I don't know what is.

If greninja runs LO you can switch to a scarf on a predicted grass knot, and suddenly the momentum's yours. If it's scarf life's even easier.

I'm not gonna say greninja isn't strong. It's got a very nice movepool allowing it to screw over many things if it so chooses. But I'm really not sure it's as broken as you're making it out to be, at least against flying. I mean, I don't run megados, but if it's scarf it's easy enough to outplay and if it's LO you can wear it down with hazards, LO and at the same time play around it to get momentum back. It makes games hard, sure, but it's nowhere near as difficult to beat for flying as talon was for grass, for example.

I'm also not saying it shouldn't be suspected. I just want to point out that greninja has a number of problems, namely:
1) It's got the worst case of 4mss imaginable now that it's got gunk shot. Sure, it can screw over one type if you particularly want it to, but if you're running Ice beam, Extrasensory and HP Fire for grass teams then it's not going to be as useful as you might like against other teams. It seems harder to beat than it is because of this.
2) It's weak. I know, protean is an amazing ability which allows it to smash faces. But as I've shown in past calcs, if it runs scarf then it really struggles to get important KOs and if it runs LO it's prone to being worn down and/or revenge killed. And let's get real here, it's got base 103 special attack. If that sounds a lot to you then I suggest going back to PU where you came from. This tier contains monstrocities like Kyurem-B, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Tyranitar, and those are the ones we consider standard and nowhere near worth considering for a ban.


The things we should be looking at, I think, are whether greninja presents a real threat to a number of teams using any single standard set or small number of standard sets. If it can beat one team with each set, sure, that's annoying. But only if it can pose a significant threat to a number of teams with a single set should it really be considered for suspect I think. Moreover, can we please make sure not to get checks and counters confused? It makes it far easier to understand what's being discussed if we're all on the same wavelength.

--End Rant--​

Tbh, I can see what you're saying here. There was one set that Enoch was saying in the Mono chat a few minutes ago, I think it was Rock Slide, Extrasensory, Gunk Shot, Ice Beam. I know for a fact that this will just destroy Flying, and it looks like it can do work against Fighting, Fairy, Ground, Fire, Dragon (depending on how many Scarfers lol), and Poison. I really shouldn't be posting right now, I have a TON of homework, so I just wanted to throw that out there. Enoch's set seems to take on a large chunk of the meta with just one mon, so yeah. And I'm certain that more people can make different sets that can also take on a large part of the meta very soon, as Greninja basically needs one move to hit a decent chunk of multiple types (e.g. Ice Beam for Flying and Ground). So yeah, there's a moveset Enoch said in chat a bit earlier, and I am certain that more movesets will arise, and they will not be easy to deal with at all.

 

[Tyke]

Grenina The OP Frog.

Hello, This is the Imperium League Champion Barida and i have some words about the Op Water/Dark Pokemon Greninja. I feel as if Greninja is really over powered in the monotype meta. People use words as Flying is overpowered, but there is not one good check to Greninja on a flying monotype team. There has been times when people say Articuno is a great check but due to rocks, Articuno really cant touch Greninja. Then on many Dark Monotype Teams, they Cary Bisharps or Tyranitars that pretty much destroy Articuno. Greninja alows obtaining Gunk Shot makes it harder for Psychic to beat it, Gunk Shot Ohkos Mega Gardivoir.
4 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Gardevoir: 445-525 (160.6 - 189.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
What are you going to freaking do to something that outspeeds alot of things on psychic. This Greninja also rapes Ground with the Grass Knot/Ice beam/Scald and Hydro pump, combo as well, there is not one pokemon on a ground monotype team eatting a hit to greninja. Greninja gunk shot even fears the likes of fairys to, look how much Greninja does to a great wall like clefable.
4 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 283-338 (71.8 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Like that is a clean 2hko and a moon blast is not killing a Poison Type Greninja.
This thing is super broken in are freaking meta, and it needs to be banned. Then it gets his new Friend in Mega Sableye like how do you kill the monster. Greninja should be erased from the meta and i should not see its tongue all over teams like this again. By the way here is some calcs of greninja vs walls for these types.
4 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 338-400 (90.6 - 107.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zapdos: 252-299 (65.6 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Now imagine when hes specs.


Sincerely,
Imp Barida

Greninja is stopped by Specially Defensive Mega-Zard X.

Also specially defensive gyarados. Mega-Gyarados walls greninjas that aren't running the niche low kick or grass knot sets, or at the very least switches into ice beams.

But it's possible in many cases flying teams might have to sacrifice a pokemon to scout greninjas set. Not unreasonable considering the struggles other monotypes face. What switches into mega Medicham on normal, or mega Zard y on grass?

 

[Tyke]

Thoughts on Mega-Sableye

Hi :]

With all the talk going around of a Mega-Sableye suspect test, I thought I’d try and brainstorm counters, checks, or counter-strategies that the mono meta-game has for it. First I made a short list of tools almost all monotypes have access to. Then I thought more about all the potential manners that each monotypes might deal with mega-sableye.

Mega-Sableye Strategies​

Some Ideas We Can All Use
-Clear Smog/Haze
-Perish Song
-Substitute on Physical Attackers
-Acid Spray
-PP Stall
-Moldbreaker + Toxic
-HO attackers
-Other Calm Mind Sweepers
-Dragon Tail
-Special Wallbreakers

​

Normal:
-Chansey stalls Sableye easily,
-Ditto can be used to PP stall and protect physical attackers from will o wisp.
-banded or LO Diggersby 2HKOs mega Sableye, doing 70-80% with earthquake.
-Mega Lopunny also has a guaranteed 2HKO with High Jump Kick.

Ice:
-Frost Breath

Electric:
-Acid Spray Elektross
-Toxic Mega-Ampharos

Flying:
-Mega-Zard X can take out mega sableye, a 2HKO using flare blitz with ~=100 ev investment.
-Nasty plot togekiss also cracks mega sableye.
-Mega Altaria and mega gyarados with substitute or rest/heal bell can set up on sableye easily.

Steel:
-Mega Mawile

Rock:
-Mega-Diancie
-Rest/Talk Mega Aggron

Fighting:
-as previously mentioned, swords dance infernape
-shed skin scrafty, unless Mega-Sableye sacrificed will o wisp for dazzling gleam.
-More eclectic options include Scrappy Pangoro (circle throw) toxic on a pokemon with moldbreaker.
-Sub calm mind keldeo, and any sub/set ups defeat sableye.
-Guts heracross will also crack it with megahorn.

Grass:
-Shaymin Sky.
-Okay, admittedly less options here .3.

Fairy:
-Banded or Belly Drum Azumarill
-Sub/swords dance mega Mawile,
-mega diancie with calm mind
-mega gardevoir or sylveon
-unaware clefable.

Psychic:
-Mega-Gardevoir

Water:
-tentacruel acid spray
-banded or belly drum azumarill,
-specs or sub/calm mind keldeo,
-crocune.
-Mega-Gyarados.
-Sniper Kingdra

Fire:
-Sun boosts
-Will o Wisp immunity
-flare blitz darmanitan is a 2HKO,
-v-create victini,
-mega-zard y 2HKO with fire blast.

Dragon:
-mega Altaria
-anything with dragon tail....
-Sniper Kingdra

Bug:
-Volcarona
-Guts Heracross

Ghost:
-Sableye can be pressure stalled with rest talk dusclops/spiritomb.
-2HKOd by flash fire boosted or specs chandelure.
-If you're prompt about dropping toxic spikes you can cripple it.
-Then there is always the option of using destiny bond or a pokemon with red card.
-Also, curse goes through magic bounce c:

Dark:
-Mega-Absol
-Nasty plot Mega-Houndoom
-Umbreon Stall

Ground:
-Sand Force Mega-Garchomp
-Calm Mind Landorus

Poison:
-anything with acid spray will break mega sableye, namely tentacruel.
-Clear smog Weezing also cancels sableye out.
-More eclectic options include using poison fang to induce toxic.
-Sub/Swords Dance Drapion/Mega-Beedrill.


Final Thoughts:
Mega-Sableye is certainly strong, but by no means broken in my opinion, despite being a big threat for many XY teams, and certain types overall. Of course my brief analysis isn’t comparable with a suspect test, but still I think there is a lot of unexplored area in this new metagame.

It is clear though that Mega-Sableye is a much larger threat and arguably broken on dark teams, which provide far better support for it than ghost can.

Idk, just mai thoughts c:

 

[Crazy Horse]

Thoughts on Mega-Sableye

Hi :]

With all the talk going around of a Mega-Sableye suspect test, I thought I’d try and brainstorm counters, checks, or counter-strategies that the mono meta-game has for it. First I made a short list of tools almost all monotypes have access to. Then I thought more about all the potential manners that each monotypes might deal with mega-sableye.

Mega-Sableye Strategies​

​

Normal:
-Chansey stalls Sableye easily,
-Ditto can be used to PP stall and protect physical attackers from will o wisp.
-banded or LO Diggersby 2HKOs mega Sableye, doing 70-80% with earthquake.
-Mega Lopunny also has a guaranteed 2HKO with High Jump Kick.

Ice:
-Frost Breath

Electric:
-Acid Spray Elektross
-Toxic Mega-Ampharos

Flying:
-Mega-Zard X can take out mega sableye, a 2HKO using flare blitz with ~=100 ev investment.
-Nasty plot togekiss also cracks mega sableye.
-Mega Altaria and mega gyarados with substitute or rest/heal bell can set up on sableye easily.

Steel:
-Mega Mawile

Rock:
-Mega-Diancie
-Rest/Talk Mega Aggron

Fighting:
-as previously mentioned, swords dance infernape
-shed skin scrafty, unless Mega-Sableye sacrificed will o wisp for dazzling gleam.
-More eclectic options include Scrappy Pangoro (circle throw) toxic on a pokemon with moldbreaker.
-Sub calm mind keldeo, and any sub/set ups defeat sableye.
-Guts heracross will also crack it with megahorn.

Grass:
-Shaymin Sky.
-Okay, admittedly less options here .3.

Fairy:
-Banded or Belly Drum Azumarill
-Sub/swords dance mega Mawile,
-mega diancie with calm mind
-mega gardevoir or sylveon
-unaware clefable.

Psychic:
-Mega-Gardevoir

Water:
-tentacruel acid spray
-banded or belly drum azumarill,
-specs or sub/calm mind keldeo,
-crocune.
-Mega-Gyarados.
-Sniper Kingdra

Fire:
-Sun boosts
-Will o Wisp immunity
-flare blitz darmanitan is a 2HKO,
-v-create victini,
-mega-zard y 2HKO with fire blast.

Dragon:
-mega Altaria
-anything with dragon tail....
-Sniper Kingdra

Bug:
-Volcarona
-Guts Heracross

Ghost:
-Sableye can be pressure stalled with rest talk dusclops/spiritomb.
-2HKOd by flash fire boosted or specs chandelure.
-If you're prompt about dropping toxic spikes you can cripple it.
-Then there is always the option of using destiny bond or a pokemon with red card.
-Also, curse goes through magic bounce c:

Dark:
-Mega-Absol
-Nasty plot Mega-Houndoom
-Umbreon Stall

Ground:
-Sand Force Mega-Garchomp
-Calm Mind Landorus

Poison:
-anything with acid spray will break mega sableye, namely tentacruel.
-Clear smog Weezing also cancels sableye out.
-More eclectic options include using poison fang to induce toxic.
-Sub/Swords Dance Drapion/Mega-Beedrill.


Final Thoughts:
Mega-Sableye is certainly strong, but by no means broken in my opinion, despite being a big threat for many XY teams, and certain types overall. Of course my brief analysis isn’t comparable with a suspect test, but still I think there is a lot of unexplored area in this new metagame.

It is clear though that Mega-Sableye is a much larger threat and arguably broken on dark teams, which provide far better support for it than ghost can.

Idk, just mai thoughts c:

Yeah ok fren :]
Normal:
- Ditto only has 5 pp... plus it's going to get burned in the process severely hindering its use
- Chansey/Blissey stalling out taunt variants?
- Diggersby has to get in first to do that and same for lopunny. Having them 1vs1 is not realistic and I don't think either of them likes switching in to a burn.

Ice:
-Frost Breath is hardly ever used nor nearly as viable due to Crit Nerf.

Electric:
-LOL that is a cute eelektross. First and foremost it already has 4 moves slot syndrome so really not practical. Also has little to no use outside of Mega-Sableye
- Ampharos on Elec nearly 90% of the Time runs an agility set. Even w/out Agility it is still hard pressed for movesets. Toxic is simply limited in use and doesn't really help Electric as a core at all.
-- If we're really gonna take out of a Pokemon's utility just for 1 Pokemon I think that's a clear sign it is broken. Think that very specific AV Slowbro set for Mega-Luke
-Toxic Mega-Ampharos

Flying:
- Flying usually has to run Bulky/Tank zard paired with gyara thanks to the harsher Offensive pokes. (TankZard has no business running 100 speed EVs and ESPECIALLY NOT Flare Blitz.)
- Togekiss: This is actually pretty fair but um there is little reason to run NP anymore outside of Mega Sableye when Wish/Heal Bell/ Protect are all superior overall in Conjuction w/ roost. If you're suggesting the more offensive togekiss that carries NP...lol
- RestTalk Gyara can't beat it. CM sableye wrecks it unless u have the d-tail variant but some of us who seeks team synergy know toxic is usually a must.

Steel:
Ah good 'Ol Mega-I'mSupposedToBeBannedAlreadyButHeywile. Can't really argue that one broken can beat broken usually ;P but we'll get to that on another day.

Fighting:
-SD Infernape? Yea now as practical as using fighting's best lead & anti-lead as a setup sweeper is, I don't think we should go that route.
-Welp now you just lost scrafty due to not being prepared for dazzling gleam. Scouting = Sabotage of a poke. Also Scrafty can't beat foul play + will o Defensive variants without a sh*t ton of Skin Heals.
-Scrappy Pangoro? You pretty much are just admitting its level of brokeness if we're listing that thing. Once again only useful for the specific purpose of beating Mega-Sab
-CM Keldeo puts in work but assuming Sab has set up maybe 1-2 CMs? and it can nab keldeo with a taunt When you sub. Then Dazzling Gleam away. < I'll admit that is a worst case scenario but Dazzling Gleam Mega-Sableye is pretty synergetic with Mono-Dark.
-Guts heracross. I suppose so. Although If I were going to use Heracross on fighting(Assuming its for psy) Moxie would be the go to but hey. Let's just drop some utility for Mega-Sab.

Grass:
- Skymin can't beat CM Versions really unless it had a bowl full of lucky charms and some orange juice. once again: Broken Beats Broken usually.

Psychic:
-So What about the psychic teams that don't have Mega Gardevoir? Too Bad so Sad, now get swept by Mega Sab? Mega Gardevoir isn't nearly as good as the new Psy Megas so a lot of teams lack it. Listing one mega for it was a very mute point.

Water:
- It's one of the best types in the game
Fire:
CM MegaSableye puts in work and can also recover on darm's flare blitz, same as for tini(D-pulsing when slower).

Ground:
- Gravity Lando-I is considered a staple in top tier play
- ScarfChomp is the glue of a ground team. It should be considered a staple. I don't wanna start a debate over this so I'll just let you be on this point.


Conclusion:
I was either too lazy or agreed with you for the points I skipped. A lot of what you recommend just isn't practical because it's really just for Mega Sableye.

 

[n64lord]

While I feel there is some missing fact checks about mega sablye's use... I am kinda sick of the thing. Several types have to rely on specific sets rather than mons to check it. And dark teams in particular can easily threaten things like shed skin scrafty by switching to mandibuzz. Additionally, people arguing about megasablye's main weaknesses haven't seen the current problem with it on the ladder... It won't be safe to assume it will always run cm/wisp/recover/STAB forever... it can give up utility in some matchups, especially teams a dark team is already good against due to other pokes, in order to beat down specific checks to it with taunt, foul play, different attacking move, etc and still win 2-3 pokes, which is more than enough for a good trainer to take the battle if done early enough.. weakening a team that much will be as worthwhile as an attempted full sweep if dark's options are explored properly. It is more difficult for it reach its full, broken potential because some thought is needed on when to mega (not against all teams however), needing to pull him out on higher BST LO/choice pokemon, and the like, but its not far enough removed from what former banned pokemon had to overcome.

Justifying some of its checks with "teams haven't evolved to meet ORAS yet" dosen't change the fact that they are included primarily for him alone and are well known to be less effective against general teams than what they replace.

So I fully support a suspect for it.

 

[Tyke]

Yeah ok fren :]
Normal:
- Ditto only has 5 pp... plus it's going to get burned in the process severely hindering its use
- Chansey/Blissey stalling out taunt variants?
- Diggersby has to get in first to do that and same for lopunny. Having them 1vs1 is not realistic and I don't think either of them likes switching in to a burn.
Ice:
-Frost Breath is hardly ever used nor nearly as viable due to Crit Nerf.
Electric:
-LOL that is a cute eelektross. First and foremost it already has 4 moves slot syndrome so really not practical. Also has little to no use outside of Mega-Sableye
- Ampharos on Elec nearly 90% of the Time runs an agility set. Even w/out Agility it is still hard pressed for movesets. Toxic is simply limited in use and doesn't really help Electric as a core at all.
-- If we're really gonna take out of a Pokemon's utility just for 1 Pokemon I think that's a clear sign it is broken. Think that very specific AV Slowbro set for Mega-Luke
-Toxic Mega-Ampharos
Flying:
- Flying usually has to run Bulky/Tank zard paired with gyara thanks to the harsher Offensive pokes. (TankZard has no business running 100 speed EVs and ESPECIALLY NOT Flare Blitz.)
- Togekiss: This is actually pretty fair but um there is little reason to run NP anymore outside of Mega Sableye when Wish/Heal Bell/ Protect are all superior overall in Conjuction w/ roost. If you're suggesting the more offensive togekiss that carries NP...lol
- RestTalk Gyara can't beat it. CM sableye wrecks it unless u have the d-tail variant but some of us who seeks team synergy know toxic is usually a must.
Steel:
Ah good 'Ol Mega-I'mSupposedToBeBannedAlreadyButHeywile. Can't really argue that one broken can beat broken usually ;P but we'll get to that on another day.
Fighting:
-SD Infernape? Yea now as practical as using fighting's best lead & anti-lead as a setup sweeper is, I don't think we should go that route.
-Welp now you just lost scrafty due to not being prepared for dazzling gleam. Scouting = Sabotage of a poke. Also Scrafty can't beat foul play + will o Defensive variants without a sh*t ton of Skin Heals.
-Scrappy Pangoro? You pretty much are just admitting its level of brokeness if we're listing that thing. Once again only useful for the specific purpose of beating Mega-Sab
-CM Keldeo puts in work but assuming Sab has set up maybe 1-2 CMs? and it can nab keldeo with a taunt When you sub. Then Dazzling Gleam away. < I'll admit that is a worst case scenario but Dazzling Gleam Mega-Sableye is pretty synergetic with Mono-Dark.
-Guts heracross. I suppose so. Although If I were going to use Heracross on fighting(Assuming its for psy) Moxie would be the go to but hey. Let's just drop some utility for Mega-Sab.
Grass:
- Skymin can't beat CM Versions really unless it had a bowl full of lucky charms and some orange juice. once again: Broken Beats Broken usually.
Psychic:
-So What about the psychic teams that don't have Mega Gardevoir? Too Bad so Sad, now get swept by Mega Sab? Mega Gardevoir isn't nearly as good as the new Psy Megas so a lot of teams lack it. Listing one mega for it was a very mute point.

Water:
- It's one of the best types in the game
Fire:
CM MegaSableye puts in work and can also recover on darm's flare blitz, same as for tini(D-pulsing when slower).

Ground:
- Gravity Lando-I is considered a staple in top tier play
- ScarfChomp is the glue of a ground team. It should be considered a staple. I don't wanna start a debate over this so I'll just let you be on this point.


Conclusion:
I was either too lazy or agreed with you for the points I skipped. A lot of what you recommend just isn't practical because it's really just for Mega Sableye.

Hi :)

Ground
-Mixed Mega-Chomp is the glue of a ground team tbh (fire blast all the skarmories) but like you said, que sera sera.

Electric:
-acid spray assaut vest elektross serves as a nice wallbreaker for the same reasons acid spray tentacruel works. There are a lot of niche electross sets (super fang, dragon taill, knock off) that i've found supremely useful, but then again that's just my experience.
-i don't see agility ampharos, mostly because it's meh. I see bulky pivot ampharos usually. (Volt Switch, Dragon Pulse, Heal Bell, Toxic), something along those lines.

Normal:
-ditto gets 5 PP each time it switches in, which is why it can theoretically PP stall forever. It wouldn't get burned as it copies magic bounce on switch in, theoretically letting it taunt/will o wisp mega-sableye back if you predict well.
-Mega-Lopunny and Diggersby need those safe switch ins, which depending on what Sableye switched in on (chansey/special attacker) can be pretty safe. Also Mega-Lopunny sets are running Sub/PuP or Heal Bell these days.

Flying:
-I'm confused how rest/talk mega-gyarados doesn't rek mega-sableye with the dark resist, excellent special bulk and offensive presence. Also with moldbreaker you can just toxic it ._.
-i said attack EVs, not speed ._. Also the zards i see are (Will o Wisp, Roost, Flare Blitz, Dragon Claw), but that's just me.

Fire:
-Sableye can't wall victini or darmanitan in the sun.

Ice, Grass, Steel:
Yeah I agree these types have it rough ;-;

Fighting:
-Bulk up/Shed Skin Scrafty is not getting touched by a Foul PLay Sableye. It's a 4X dark resist.
-Taunt/fighting move/*fire move*... the fourth move is usually a matter a preference, i've seen everything from will o wisp to grass knot. Swords Dance wouldn't be compromising Infernape badly.
-I did say Pangoro was an eclectic choice, tbf.


I guess my issue with your argument is that your theoretical Sableye set is running (Taunt, Calm Mind, Will o Wisp, Dark Pulse, Dazzling Gleam, Recover, Foul Play) :I

If mega-sableye doesn't run calm mind then it can't wall special, if it doesn't run will o wisp it can't wall physical, and if it doesn't run recover it can't wall anything. And if that last move isn't an attack then that sableye set is better served non-mega so it can keep prankster.

We could keep making counter points for days about this.

All that said, I support a suspect of Mega-Sableye on dark, because it has much stronger support to deal with it's checks/counters there.

 

[Zewwok]

Yeah ok fren :]
Normal:
- Ditto only has 5 pp... plus it's going to get burned in the process severely hindering its use
- Chansey/Blissey stalling out taunt variants?
- Diggersby has to get in first to do that and same for lopunny. Having them 1vs1 is not realistic and I don't think either of them likes switching in to a burn.
Ice:
-Frost Breath is hardly ever used nor nearly as viable due to Crit Nerf.
Electric:
-LOL that is a cute eelektross. First and foremost it already has 4 moves slot syndrome so really not practical. Also has little to no use outside of Mega-Sableye
- Ampharos on Elec nearly 90% of the Time runs an agility set. Even w/out Agility it is still hard pressed for movesets. Toxic is simply limited in use and doesn't really help Electric as a core at all.
-- If we're really gonna take out of a Pokemon's utility just for 1 Pokemon I think that's a clear sign it is broken. Think that very specific AV Slowbro set for Mega-Luke
-Toxic Mega-Ampharos
Flying:
- Flying usually has to run Bulky/Tank zard paired with gyara thanks to the harsher Offensive pokes. (TankZard has no business running 100 speed EVs and ESPECIALLY NOT Flare Blitz.)
- Togekiss: This is actually pretty fair but um there is little reason to run NP anymore outside of Mega Sableye when Wish/Heal Bell/ Protect are all superior overall in Conjuction w/ roost. If you're suggesting the more offensive togekiss that carries NP...lol
- RestTalk Gyara can't beat it. CM sableye wrecks it unless u have the d-tail variant but some of us who seeks team synergy know toxic is usually a must.
Steel:
Ah good 'Ol Mega-I'mSupposedToBeBannedAlreadyButHeywile. Can't really argue that one broken can beat broken usually ;P but we'll get to that on another day.
Fighting:
-SD Infernape? Yea now as practical as using fighting's best lead & anti-lead as a setup sweeper is, I don't think we should go that route.
-Welp now you just lost scrafty due to not being prepared for dazzling gleam. Scouting = Sabotage of a poke. Also Scrafty can't beat foul play + will o Defensive variants without a sh*t ton of Skin Heals.
-Scrappy Pangoro? You pretty much are just admitting its level of brokeness if we're listing that thing. Once again only useful for the specific purpose of beating Mega-Sab
-CM Keldeo puts in work but assuming Sab has set up maybe 1-2 CMs? and it can nab keldeo with a taunt When you sub. Then Dazzling Gleam away. < I'll admit that is a worst case scenario but Dazzling Gleam Mega-Sableye is pretty synergetic with Mono-Dark.
-Guts heracross. I suppose so. Although If I were going to use Heracross on fighting(Assuming its for psy) Moxie would be the go to but hey. Let's just drop some utility for Mega-Sab.
Grass:
- Skymin can't beat CM Versions really unless it had a bowl full of lucky charms and some orange juice. once again: Broken Beats Broken usually.
Psychic:
-So What about the psychic teams that don't have Mega Gardevoir? Too Bad so Sad, now get swept by Mega Sab? Mega Gardevoir isn't nearly as good as the new Psy Megas so a lot of teams lack it. Listing one mega for it was a very mute point.

Water:
- It's one of the best types in the game
Fire:
CM MegaSableye puts in work and can also recover on darm's flare blitz, same as for tini(D-pulsing when slower).

Ground:
- Gravity Lando-I is considered a staple in top tier play
- ScarfChomp is the glue of a ground team. It should be considered a staple. I don't wanna start a debate over this so I'll just let you be on this point.


Conclusion:
I was either too lazy or agreed with you for the points I skipped. A lot of what you recommend just isn't practical because it's really just for Mega Sableye.

Sableye has magic bounce, which ditto copies, so ditto can actually burn sableye if it switches in on willo. Also, where exactly is sableye going to run taunt? Assuming a cm variant, that's cm/recover/willo/attacking move. If it doesn't run willo, it's going to get steamrolled by physical attackers. If it isn't a cm variant, it isn't going to be sweeping anything, and will fall to stronger special attacks.

252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye in Sun: 249-294 (81.9 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Recovering off that?

Admittedly, if there isn't sun, you get this:

252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 166-196 (54.6 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


+6 4 SpA Sableye Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Gyarados: 90-107 (22.9 - 27.2%) -- 54.9% chance to 4 KO

And restalk gyara doesn't beat it?

As for psychic, they do have gallade. Gallade can sub up in front of sableye and swords dance or bulk up until it can break sable, provided it is running a coverage move. If sableye tries to break it's subs, justified just makes it stronger. (And the word is moot, not mute)

ScarfChomp is not as vital to ground as you make it out to be. Between sand rush excadrill, mamoswine/zygarde priority, you don't usually find ground struggling with speed. And CM Landorus is a viable set, and there are reasons to use it over the gravity one. Mega Sableye is just another of those.

Grass has megasaur, which commonly runs amnesia. Between this and the poison chance on sludge bomb, it has a good chance of beating sableye.

While dazzling gleam may beat fighting, it doesn't beat much else. It's a subpar option, as sableye won't be able to break many teams with special bulk if it doesn't run STAB. Also, guts on a fighting team is amazing, you aren't losing any utility for running it. Fighting teams tend to attract status like a moth to a flame, so having an absorber is extremely useful. Also, Taunt+dazzling gleam means it's not running willo, and gets beaten by half the team.

 

[Inwhale]

Yeah ok fren :]
Normal:
- Ditto only has 5 pp... plus it's going to get burned in the process severely hindering its use
- Chansey/Blissey stalling out taunt variants?
- Diggersby has to get in first to do that and same for lopunny. Having them 1vs1 is not realistic and I don't think either of them likes switching in to a burn.
Ice:
-Frost Breath is hardly ever used nor nearly as viable due to Crit Nerf.
Electric:
-LOL that is a cute eelektross. First and foremost it already has 4 moves slot syndrome so really not practical. Also has little to no use outside of Mega-Sableye
- Ampharos on Elec nearly 90% of the Time runs an agility set. Even w/out Agility it is still hard pressed for movesets. Toxic is simply limited in use and doesn't really help Electric as a core at all.
-- If we're really gonna take out of a Pokemon's utility just for 1 Pokemon I think that's a clear sign it is broken. Think that very specific AV Slowbro set for Mega-Luke
-Toxic Mega-Ampharos
Flying:
- Flying usually has to run Bulky/Tank zard paired with gyara thanks to the harsher Offensive pokes. (TankZard has no business running 100 speed EVs and ESPECIALLY NOT Flare Blitz.)
- Togekiss: This is actually pretty fair but um there is little reason to run NP anymore outside of Mega Sableye when Wish/Heal Bell/ Protect are all superior overall in Conjuction w/ roost. If you're suggesting the more offensive togekiss that carries NP...lol
- RestTalk Gyara can't beat it. CM sableye wrecks it unless u have the d-tail variant but some of us who seeks team synergy know toxic is usually a must.
Steel:
Ah good 'Ol Mega-I'mSupposedToBeBannedAlreadyButHeywile. Can't really argue that one broken can beat broken usually ;P but we'll get to that on another day.
Fighting:
-SD Infernape? Yea now as practical as using fighting's best lead & anti-lead as a setup sweeper is, I don't think we should go that route.
-Welp now you just lost scrafty due to not being prepared for dazzling gleam. Scouting = Sabotage of a poke. Also Scrafty can't beat foul play + will o Defensive variants without a sh*t ton of Skin Heals.
-Scrappy Pangoro? You pretty much are just admitting its level of brokeness if we're listing that thing. Once again only useful for the specific purpose of beating Mega-Sab
-CM Keldeo puts in work but assuming Sab has set up maybe 1-2 CMs? and it can nab keldeo with a taunt When you sub. Then Dazzling Gleam away. < I'll admit that is a worst case scenario but Dazzling Gleam Mega-Sableye is pretty synergetic with Mono-Dark.
-Guts heracross. I suppose so. Although If I were going to use Heracross on fighting(Assuming its for psy) Moxie would be the go to but hey. Let's just drop some utility for Mega-Sab.
Grass:
- Skymin can't beat CM Versions really unless it had a bowl full of lucky charms and some orange juice. once again: Broken Beats Broken usually.
Psychic:
-So What about the psychic teams that don't have Mega Gardevoir? Too Bad so Sad, now get swept by Mega Sab? Mega Gardevoir isn't nearly as good as the new Psy Megas so a lot of teams lack it. Listing one mega for it was a very mute point.

Water:
- It's one of the best types in the game
Fire:
CM MegaSableye puts in work and can also recover on darm's flare blitz, same as for tini(D-pulsing when slower).

Ground:
- Gravity Lando-I is considered a staple in top tier play
- ScarfChomp is the glue of a ground team. It should be considered a staple. I don't wanna start a debate over this so I'll just let you be on this point.


Conclusion:
I was either too lazy or agreed with you for the points I skipped. A lot of what you recommend just isn't practical because it's really just for Mega Sableye.

In addition to the previously mentioned flaws your arguments have

• Hunk was listing tools that monotypes have to deal with mega sable, not things currently popular in the meta.
• You have very specific ideas on how certain pokemon will benefit their team best, which i'm assuming comes from personal experience when making teams. Note, however, that this approach is only applicable to teams you would make- perhaps another would find, say, heracross with guts the best addition to his fighting team, rather than using him as a moxie sweeper. It's not like the moxie variant is better in every single - or even most - scenarios, as the usefulness of a pokemon and set depends on the playstyle of the trainer.

 

[feen]

Greninja is stopped by Specially Defensive Mega-Zard X.

Also specially defensive gyarados. Mega-Gyarados walls greninjas that aren't running the niche low kick or grass knot sets, or at the very least switches into ice beams.

But it's possible in many cases flying teams might have to sacrifice a pokemon to scout greninjas set. Not unreasonable considering the struggles other monotypes face. What switches into mega Medicham on normal, or mega Zard y on grass?

It's not stopped by Zard X, with rocks it's going to get killed. Also Tyranitar and Mandibuzz along with Hydreigon destroys that Zard so Greninja can sweep lategame 1-6 if Zard is weakened.

 

[Clearly]

It's not stopped by Zard X, with rocks it's going to get killed. Also Tyranitar and Mandibuzz along with Hydreigon destroys that Zard so Greninja can sweep lategame 1-6 if Zard is weakened.

Mandibuzz cant do anything to specially defensive Zard-X as it will get burnt and most Mandibuzz dont run toxic on dark

Tyranitar can be burnt on the switch in and its not like zard x doesnt have reliable teammates to switch into ttar, Lando-T can switch into TTar if the ttar isnt carrying ice beam and Skarm can switch in if it isnt carrying fire blast. Charizard itself can even wall it if its max hp.

252 Atk burned Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 153-181 (42.6 - 50.4%) -- 41.8% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage

Lastly Hydreigon isnt going to switch into a Zard-X unless the person knows the set Zard is running and predicts Zard not to use dragon claw.

0 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 314-372 (96.3 - 114.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

Not to mention that Zard-X has an easy switch in of Togekiss every time Hydreigon comes out since it can barely touch it. Greninja sweeping 1-6 is highly unlikely at any point since Flying has plenty of potential scarf pokemon and the chance of Scarf Greninja sweeping is very low unless the Flying team is extremely worn down since most of Flying's spdef walls can cripple gren as all can survive an ice beam and Spdef Togekiss can easily switch in and paralyze it.

252 SpA Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss: 164-194 (43.9 - 52%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery