http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-tiering-updates.3493087/page-60#post-6044633
It was banned on Feb 11th
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Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]
- Thread starter ryan
- Start date
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It was banned on Feb 11th
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-213444261
Dark v Flying
Please tell me how is that even legal in anyway?
Dark v Flying
Please tell me how is that even legal in anyway?
Arifeen, I'm still a bit undecided on the Greninja ban (leaning towards ban, but I'll hold out), but this "playing the victim" thing is just not going to work and is lowering everyone's opinion of you. Flying is arguably the most powerful type in existence, and has the tools to beat Dark when it wants to (Togekiss, MAlt, etc). However, like you have so eloquently stated, Dark wins against Flying a majority of the time. How is this in any way different from Ice v Steel? Ground v Water? Water v Grass? You chose to play Monotype, and in this tier, matchup is one of the biggest factors in the outcome of the battle. If you're simply going to post a replay of you playing poorly and losing a match to a disadvantage, you are proving nothing. You are simply proving that Monotype is Monotype. Frankly, I thought you were above these sort of posts. Yes, Flying has bad matchups, just like every other type, and if you don't play immaculately, you will lose to them. Like I have stated before, this is Monotype. If you believe that you can use a powerful type and win every matchup while making poor plays, you are simply wrong and playing the wrong tier (not that this mindset will get you anywhere in other tiers). In the end, the way you are portraying Greninja is nothing different than how Mega Venusaur is destructive to Water, Char Y to Grass, Zard X to Electric, etc. Yes, there are checks to these threats on the types I have stated; but there are also checks to Greninja on Flying (SpDef Zard X, Scarfers, SpDef Gyara, which you use yourself). Now, to prevent this from becoming a Greninja rant post, I'll cut it short here.
Every type has bad matchups, even Flying. If you wish to be victorious against such matchups, letting your only check to a mon that beats your entire team die on turn 11 is not exactly how you win. You cannot expect to win by playing in such a poor manner. Stop crying about Flying not beating everything and instead either make insightful posts with clear logic, or spend your time being creative and finding checks/counters to the threats (i.e. when Drak/I found SpDef Gyara, when ArVaDa/whoever else I can't remember started using Articuno). Posting replays of you playing miserably and elaborating it with one simple line that provides no fuel to the discussion is not an optimal use of your time, and will get you nowhere.
★Mega Pik☆chu: what about scarf kyu b with ice beam
★Mega Pik☆chu: that fucks with your team too
Please elaborate on how Greninja is different from other top tier Monotype threats. I would love to hear it, and I hope when you do it will be stated well enough to sway me to ban Greninja.
We are friends, Arifeen, but I will not simply stand by as you tarnish the name of Flying users and give basis for the assumption that "Flying users are bad and rely on their type to win".
I apologize to whoever I might have offended with this post, and if I offended you Arifeen I also apologize. I am also sorry to whoever thought that this was immature or unneeded. Please ignore this if that is so. I simply felt the need to get this out.
Thank you and I hope all of you have a wonderful day.
Every type has bad matchups, even Flying. If you wish to be victorious against such matchups, letting your only check to a mon that beats your entire team die on turn 11 is not exactly how you win. You cannot expect to win by playing in such a poor manner. Stop crying about Flying not beating everything and instead either make insightful posts with clear logic, or spend your time being creative and finding checks/counters to the threats (i.e. when Drak/I found SpDef Gyara, when ArVaDa/whoever else I can't remember started using Articuno). Posting replays of you playing miserably and elaborating it with one simple line that provides no fuel to the discussion is not an optimal use of your time, and will get you nowhere.
★Mega Pik☆chu: what about scarf kyu b with ice beam
★Mega Pik☆chu: that fucks with your team too
Please elaborate on how Greninja is different from other top tier Monotype threats. I would love to hear it, and I hope when you do it will be stated well enough to sway me to ban Greninja.
We are friends, Arifeen, but I will not simply stand by as you tarnish the name of Flying users and give basis for the assumption that "Flying users are bad and rely on their type to win".
I apologize to whoever I might have offended with this post, and if I offended you Arifeen I also apologize. I am also sorry to whoever thought that this was immature or unneeded. Please ignore this if that is so. I simply felt the need to get this out.
Thank you and I hope all of you have a wonderful day.
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It'd have died anyways to rocks+Mandibuzz, also, with it being taunted it cannot heal up and cannot tank ice beams as well
Scarf Kyurem-B can be easily Roost Pressure Stalled by Zapdos, and then switch to a wall depending on the move it uses, Zapdos however, cannot tank an Ice Beam from a Greninja and it'll lose. Yeah we both know Kyurem got more SpA than Ninja but it hits lesser because they don't run SpA evs. Even if they do I can roost and switch to Gyarados, which can easily tank Fusion Bolts thanks to the EVs I'm using but it cannot tank Grass Knots from Greninjas
Greninja doesn't only destroy flying, it destroys a type it wishes to. It can always put a type in it's hitlist and almost always destroy it. What's the worst part is that we don't know what's it running
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You've never seen a jolly sand rush Exca?
Tbh you remind me of someone who I had a small debate over Talonflame being unbanned about 20 pages or so ago after watching his replays in which it still needs to stay banned. Anyway, for starters, why would you stay in when Mandibuzz can taunt and wall you along with holding Rocky Helmet? That doesn't make any sense at all cause you lost pretty much your Greninja counter. I would have either swapped into Skarmory or Togekiss while Mandibuzz is still on the field so I could get Defog off and get rid of the Stealth Rock. Or predict that Mandibuzz would go for a Roost or Foul Play and switch into Togekiss. Hmm let me see....oh he has no cleric on his team so you could definitely switched into Togekiss and...oh I can try and get paraflinch off as a free opportunity so I can save my Mega Gyarados. Also, idk why were you using Landorus-I when you should have used Scarf Lando-T instead against Greninja and go for a Stone Edge. You're fully aware of what all it can do and I see you made no actual effort in countering Greninja. So far, I'm just leaning towards it being banned from Mono Water first and see what it'll happen from that point on before I think about Dark. The majority can assume Greninja will be Mixed cause of Gunk Shot in ORAS.
The majority I encounter on the ladder has Gunk Shot, Ice Beam, Surf/Hydro Pump, and Dark Pulse/Grass Knot. You should have also realized that Ice Beam is a staple on Greninja so it'll definitely be running that move. You say that Flying can't beat everything but yet, it's one of the most spammable Monos in the metagame for a while now. You have the tools you need to make them work and adapt to Greninja. Flying has excellent coverage altogether. Don't say "oh he could have switched into Ttar or Sableye and such and take the Stone Edge anyway." Cause you don't know how the match would turn out since you made a lot of misplays in losing your Gyarados.
I apologize but I can't believe what I saw from the replay.
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Haha regarding these bans and such I think it would be good to step back and think about what each ban really means.
At one point there were talks about banning skarmory or zapdos to nerf flying. But honestly what does that say for the philosophy we are standing by as a community, ban successful cores that work? If you ban skarmory, why can't we then ban another wall on another monotype team, such as chansey, which makes the deadly chansey + pory2 core.
The same thing goes for offensive / balanced cores, if greninja is sent home, what else falls in line with that? Now greninja definitely is on the cusp of what defines an uber threat, but once again everything has and can be dealt with. The talonflame ban was done to allow grass and fighting to breath. I don't think greninja (or any core it forms) is choking anything to the point of being helpless, but like I said, he is nasty haha.
Just some food for thought when people are for or against something concerning these ban topics. I think the least amount of bans possible would be best, but that isn't for me to decide.
I am on the don't ban greninja side. As of this moment in time anyways.
At one point there were talks about banning skarmory or zapdos to nerf flying. But honestly what does that say for the philosophy we are standing by as a community, ban successful cores that work? If you ban skarmory, why can't we then ban another wall on another monotype team, such as chansey, which makes the deadly chansey + pory2 core.
The same thing goes for offensive / balanced cores, if greninja is sent home, what else falls in line with that? Now greninja definitely is on the cusp of what defines an uber threat, but once again everything has and can be dealt with. The talonflame ban was done to allow grass and fighting to breath. I don't think greninja (or any core it forms) is choking anything to the point of being helpless, but like I said, he is nasty haha.
Just some food for thought when people are for or against something concerning these ban topics. I think the least amount of bans possible would be best, but that isn't for me to decide.
I am on the don't ban greninja side. As of this moment in time anyways.
Alright, I'm going to do this only once, cause I'm not a fan of these forums. But here is my opinion on things(Keep in note I'm on a Mobile device in a hot school building so don't expect calcs and the works
Greninja: this thing is way too versitle. Without at first figuring out what set it runs first there is really no way to tell what it might do to your team at A first glance. It has many different sets, such as band, scarf, life orb, ebelt, ect. With it's very diverse move pull, it has a win condition against 4 of the 18 types that are, Flying, Rock, Ground, And fire. From reading the posts on this thread so far and from the vast opinions of other players in the monotype metagame such as Mega Pika and DEG, You all argue that Greninja should not be banned from dark for 2 reasons:
1.Dark doesn't have a lot of diversity and needs a good special attacker.
2.Having Greninja in the meta game keeps flying monotype in check to the point that it's not absolutely broken.
Dark may seem limited, but it has ALOT more choices then just using gren. Mega houndoom is a good special attacker that helps with bug, Zoroark has a fantastic ability, and is also a good special attacker, and you cannot forget tyranitar, which has a fantastic special move pull.
As for Having greninja allowed to keep flying from ruling the metagame, I have to say that the concept of your ideas of "Broken checking Broken" for Balance is absolutely disgusting. All it is really is a fall back argument, and doesn't really justify as a reason for greninja to stay.
Another thing, When I asked some of the dark users about Greninja, they also said it was needed for dark because scarf ninja was the only mega Altaria check. If your going to use an argument like that, Why not keep Kyruem white for Ice so that it has a chance against steel? That isn't really a strong reasoning either but I have a solution: Try to stray away from your old route of doing things. Stop complaining and adapt. Weavile, drapion are some viable choices I know you can utilize. Shout out to the user clearly, for being inovative, and trying new opinion instead of complaining. In conclusion, I'm voting on a ban on greninja from both types.
Greninja: this thing is way too versitle. Without at first figuring out what set it runs first there is really no way to tell what it might do to your team at A first glance. It has many different sets, such as band, scarf, life orb, ebelt, ect. With it's very diverse move pull, it has a win condition against 4 of the 18 types that are, Flying, Rock, Ground, And fire. From reading the posts on this thread so far and from the vast opinions of other players in the monotype metagame such as Mega Pika and DEG, You all argue that Greninja should not be banned from dark for 2 reasons:
1.Dark doesn't have a lot of diversity and needs a good special attacker.
2.Having Greninja in the meta game keeps flying monotype in check to the point that it's not absolutely broken.
Dark may seem limited, but it has ALOT more choices then just using gren. Mega houndoom is a good special attacker that helps with bug, Zoroark has a fantastic ability, and is also a good special attacker, and you cannot forget tyranitar, which has a fantastic special move pull.
As for Having greninja allowed to keep flying from ruling the metagame, I have to say that the concept of your ideas of "Broken checking Broken" for Balance is absolutely disgusting. All it is really is a fall back argument, and doesn't really justify as a reason for greninja to stay.
Another thing, When I asked some of the dark users about Greninja, they also said it was needed for dark because scarf ninja was the only mega Altaria check. If your going to use an argument like that, Why not keep Kyruem white for Ice so that it has a chance against steel? That isn't really a strong reasoning either but I have a solution: Try to stray away from your old route of doing things. Stop complaining and adapt. Weavile, drapion are some viable choices I know you can utilize. Shout out to the user clearly, for being inovative, and trying new opinion instead of complaining. In conclusion, I'm voting on a ban on greninja from both types.
Just so you know.
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 170-204 (58.4 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That+Max Def Rocky Helm Mandi kills it. Also Ttar can survive an unboosted return and hit hard OR hit hard while it's setting up.
Also:
+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Drapion: 235-277 (68.5 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
This is a thing in RU, and it can poison jab in return to make it weaker as well, taking about 60% of it's HP which makes it easier for Weavile/Zoroark to kill.
Hello guys and girls, some of you might know me, I'm Grass Bloom the bellossom user and long time grass user in monotype room. This is my first time to comment on here so sorry for any bad typing that might occur. I came here to comment on the lose of skymin from grass though I not use it but I here to comment the unfairness that fell upon this already under power type.
First, while skymin gone, the bug still have genesect, mega pinsir which can kill grass team with ease though if bug team have either one of these, we still have a chance however can you imagine if we face team that carry both plus volcarona, yanmega, scarf-heracross, etc? the counter that we have won't enough to protect us from all those mix-up so if we not face stupid player or have some hex help, it kinda like auto gg for us most of the time at the moment. So the current situation which i think would be nice is to either reban genesect or ban mega-pinsir or have rule that these two can't be together in one team to balance the lost of us
Second, the reason you ban skymin because of flinch hax, now come to think of it, togekiss is also heavily rely on flinch hax and worst with the help of thunder wave, however this set still have us some chance to kill it or disrupt before the combo finish but for scarf togekiss can also mean a disaster to most of the grass team if the luck is not on our side since togekiss has greater bulk than skymin it rarely to ohko it without buff or boost items and don't think that ferrothorn can help forever give the fact that flying team can use overheat to kill ferro or togekiss itself carry flamthrower so I think it unfair to not do anything with togekiss while you did with us with the same reason. It would be nice if you look into this a fix it up, maybe ban scarf from togekiss?
And the last thing I want to suggest is that if all my opinion above seem non-sense, at least you can compensate us with more bonus point when ladder, given the difficulties we face at the moment but sincerely grass is quite in bad shape now so please have on look on it azap.
Well this is all I need to say for the time being. I hope you, nani, and other committees will take my opinions into consideration please.
See you all at the room
First, while skymin gone, the bug still have genesect, mega pinsir which can kill grass team with ease though if bug team have either one of these, we still have a chance however can you imagine if we face team that carry both plus volcarona, yanmega, scarf-heracross, etc? the counter that we have won't enough to protect us from all those mix-up so if we not face stupid player or have some hex help, it kinda like auto gg for us most of the time at the moment. So the current situation which i think would be nice is to either reban genesect or ban mega-pinsir or have rule that these two can't be together in one team to balance the lost of us
Second, the reason you ban skymin because of flinch hax, now come to think of it, togekiss is also heavily rely on flinch hax and worst with the help of thunder wave, however this set still have us some chance to kill it or disrupt before the combo finish but for scarf togekiss can also mean a disaster to most of the grass team if the luck is not on our side since togekiss has greater bulk than skymin it rarely to ohko it without buff or boost items and don't think that ferrothorn can help forever give the fact that flying team can use overheat to kill ferro or togekiss itself carry flamthrower so I think it unfair to not do anything with togekiss while you did with us with the same reason. It would be nice if you look into this a fix it up, maybe ban scarf from togekiss?
And the last thing I want to suggest is that if all my opinion above seem non-sense, at least you can compensate us with more bonus point when ladder, given the difficulties we face at the moment but sincerely grass is quite in bad shape now so please have on look on it azap.
Well this is all I need to say for the time being. I hope you, nani, and other committees will take my opinions into consideration please.
See you all at the room
In a way, Greninja is like
Tiers try to avoid complex bans if possible, so banning Scarf Togekiss would be impossible. (Besides, if we did that, I'd ban Scarf Ninja lol) As for Genesect, it is being looked upon by Nani Man. (He mentions this in the OM Interviews)
You don't need to bold as much as this, my eyes are bleeding
As for the ban on genesect, I agree but this it not only for Grass-type it wreaks (in fact it also wreak ice type for instance) and as Anttya said it is being looked upon by Nani Man.I don't even understan why Genesect wasn't banned in both types at the same type as Steel type can give a lot of support (hazard and good cores) but Bug is almost always played with the Sticky Web which is a huge support to genesect (don't need to run Scarf anymore, can also be Band and really wreaks things). To be honest I don't think a ban on MPinsir is possible (lol it became UU this month but this is not relevant in monotype).
As for the ban on Scarf Togekiss I don't really see how it would solve the problem because parahaxx is better than scarflinchaxx and anyway complew bans are not a good way to go. I also think banning Togekiss wouldn't solve the problem (togekiss is far from being broken overall even if it is great) and in reality you can only do what you do with bad type in general (Ice vs Scizor for example), you try to play around and anticipate before it is too late to react. If you know Togekiss is a problem juste don't let it the possibility to start its job.
As for the ban on genesect, I agree but this it not only for Grass-type it wreaks (in fact it also wreak ice type for instance) and as Anttya said it is being looked upon by Nani Man.I don't even understan why Genesect wasn't banned in both types at the same type as Steel type can give a lot of support (hazard and good cores) but Bug is almost always played with the Sticky Web which is a huge support to genesect (don't need to run Scarf anymore, can also be Band and really wreaks things). To be honest I don't think a ban on MPinsir is possible (lol it became UU this month but this is not relevant in monotype).
As for the ban on Scarf Togekiss I don't really see how it would solve the problem because parahaxx is better than scarflinchaxx and anyway complew bans are not a good way to go. I also think banning Togekiss wouldn't solve the problem (togekiss is far from being broken overall even if it is great) and in reality you can only do what you do with bad type in general (Ice vs Scizor for example), you try to play around and anticipate before it is too late to react. If you know Togekiss is a problem juste don't let it the possibility to start its job.
There are other, albeit, tougher ways of beating Bug with Grass. Skymin may be the most effective way, but it also turned a lot of other match-ups into a mess like Fighting(tfw Inner Focus is actually handy on Gallade). I'd support a Genesect ban, but banning Mega Pinsir is going a bit too far. If you have trouble with Bug, then you must build your team to cover that weakness.
The thing about Togekiss is that basically any other Scarfer outspeeds it. Scarf Skymin however, is outsped by very, very few things. That's the main reason people want it banned. Also, Seed Flare is absolutely broken on Skymin as it almost always lowers the opponent's SpDef making it easier to beat those SpDef walls. It also has amazing coverage with Earth Power. Togekiss is easily walled by SpDef walls and once again, many common Scarfers can outspeed it. Remember that what may be hell for one type may be a cakewalk for another (for example, Scizor may be hell for Ice, but against Fire, Steel, and Flying, it has less worth) As a side note:
8 SpA Togekiss Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 232-276 (65.9 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Togekiss Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 312-368 (88.6 - 104.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
You may not be able to switch into Togekiss, but Ferrothorn CAN live a Flamethrower and CAN Gyro Ball or Thunder Wave.
Smogon hates complex bans, so banning Mega Pinsir and Genesect from being on the same team and banning Scarf for Togekiss would be very tough to do.
There are quite a few people that think that the bonus point system would work, so it may get looked into, but for the time being, we're with the normal ELO system. I hope it DOES get implemented though.
One last thought:
If you don't use Skymin, then how would you know if it's broken or not? Your Grass team would face the same troubles as it has before.
P.S Try not to use so much bold. It's irritating on the eyes.
I know you've gotten quite a few responses to this post already but I typed up a post a few pages back that I think would be extremely relevant in this case. You really should read it:
Yes, Grass is struggling right now. But you know what? It's not the only type ever to struggle. Before ORAS, Ghost was near useless. It's my favorite type but I stopped using it because it was so difficult to get a win. At the time I was bitter about it, but I've come to accept that type viability will shift with the passing of each new wave of pokemon and game mechanics. For all we know, in 2 generations Flying teams will be shitty and everyone will be screaming "NERF GRASS IT'S TOO F***ING OP". Is it likely? Probably not, but I'm hoping it does happen because I'm a Grass fan as well lol.
Either way, the point of bans/suspects is not to balance the types. That is an extremely common misconception. The point of banning something is to eliminate from the metagame the pokemon or strategies that are deemed to be unfair. Swagger was banned because the Swagplay strategy was deemed to be unfair. Mega Salamence was banned because its ridiculous amount of power was deemed to be unfair. In Shaymin-Sky's case, it was banned because Nani Man and the community decided its combination of speed, power, movepool, and hax-inducing ability was unfair to anyone not using it. Please keep this in mind when posting about whether something should or should not be banned.
Now, with that being said, I'd like to comment on PK-Kaiser 's post:
I have to admit, up until now I was unimpressed with the arguments being presented for a ban of Greninja. But Kaiser has very clearly outlined simple reasons why Greninja should be banned as well as provided a VERY convincing argument discrediting the people saying it should stay. I was leaning towards a no-ban on the ninja frog mostly because the argument "it nerfs flying, let's keep it around so flying doesn't rule us all" sounded pretty good. I hate generic flying as much as any of you do, but nerfing one type is no reason to keep around something that is legitimately OP, as Kaiser pointed out. Now, am I completely convinced that Smogfrog needs to go? No. I'm really not sure at this point if it should go, but just going off of my own speculation, I think it might be a more interesting and fun metagame if Greninja weren't around. That is not a vote for or against banning Greninja. I am simply saying I think I would enjoy the metagame more if it does happen to get banned.
Partially unrelated to the Greninja talk, but honestly Dark has almost no chance against Mega Altaria.
+1 192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 422-500 (99.7 - 118.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
One round of ice shard and Rocky Helmet doesn't even kill it, and even max defense Mandibuzz can't live a hit (not like anyone uses max defense anyways)
Also your calc uses 0 HP Altaria, when a lot of them have 64 HP for extra bulk.
While Drapion might seem like a good idea because of having a secondary Poison typing, it really isn't viable because even though it has a high Defense stat, it has a low HP and Special Defense stat, not to mention no reliable recovery at all and a low Attack stat. Also using both Weavile and Drapion on the same Dark team in an attempt to stop Altaria makes you weak to other things that you didn't have a problem with before.
If Altaria gets +1, it is pretty much over for the Dark team. The only way to stall the loss a bit is to burn it with non mega Sableye, but even burned Altaria OHKO/2HKO's everything on the team. It is also pretty easy for it to set up, with Pokemon like Mandibuzz, Umbreon, non flash cannon Hydreigon and defensive Tyranitar being unable to touch it.
InfernapeTropius11
get on my level
If you auto-lose to Bug, you may just have to accept an auto-loss to Bug. The new goal of monotype is to make all types USABLE, not VIABLE (for example, Ice pretty much autoloses to Steel, and Ice users have accepted, or have to accept that). If you refuse to teambuild to try and beat this type and rely on a haxy Pokemon that is cancer to the metagame as a whole and can make matches luck-based rather than skill-based, then you may want to try a new type. I have used Grass a bit recently, and I know for a fact that it is winnable. Ferrothorn and Mega Venusaur (two of your main walls) are both neutral to Bug, and Bug is not immune to Leech Seed. Serperior gets a free Scarf out of Sticky Webs (allowing it to outspeed even Mega Beedrill) and has access to Leaf Storm to revenge kill something that is weakened and get a boost before hitting hard with HP Fire. Once again, complex bans are a no-no. Something good is either banned or it isn't. Genesect is being considered for a ban right now, too btw. About Mega Pinsir, go back in this thread. There have been numerous complaints about it, all of which have been shut down, because it is possible for you to win.
Togekiss does rely on flinchax, but it is slow, meaning it needs a Scarf to outspeed stuff (most other Scarfers outspeed and can take it down) or it needs Thunder Wave (which can't paralyze Electric and Ground types). It is not as fast nor as powerful as Skymin. It also doesn't get Seed Flare, and move that has an 80% chance to lower SpD two stages under Serene Grace that renders all checks useless if you get lucky. Togekiss does not need a ban.
Grass also has access to Rotom-Mow. Slap a Scarf on that puppy and watch it cut down these threats. It outspeeds and OHKOs Mega Pinsir, or you can go the bulkier route and invest some in Def and run a fast Scarf WoW set. It also outspeeds all forms of Togekiss (Scarf or not) and is immune to Thunder Wave, and Thunderbolt does a lot of damage, if it doesn't OHKO (can't calc right now). Both of these Pokemon also happen to be Stealth Rock weak (Ferrothorn or Cradily can set Rocks effectively). Making a new ladder system based on the type matchups is something that has been considered, Iwould advise you to go back a few pages to when it was discussed.
Finally, if you don't use Skymin, how does this affect you? These would have been threats to you before the Skymin ban as well :L
Also, plz less bold. Bold important bits--not 60% of your post, please.
Anttya, why you call me fat grass bloom XD, thx for your opinion
Gnief friar, thx for damage calculation on how ferrothorn survive from togekiss so tell me if ferro can ohko it or not if not, it is likely that one chance to kill wont save me anyway and the hax continued. Though I must say that beating flying is easier than beat bug. Also even I didnt use skymin when I laddering, it doesn't mean I never tried it with friends and I didn't see it showing off its hax power much or maybe I am an unlucky person that all.
Acast, Ghost is not useless, the one time that it was nearly useless was aegislash ban, I use ghost type as secondary type when I done with grass and its win/lose ratio is always good. It help me a lot when laddering. It still one of the better type imo.
InfernapeTropius11, I have use grass more than you do, I know that it is still winnable but the amount of counter that need to have is ridiculous high nowadays, if you face bug team with only genesect, yeah sure still winnable, if only mega pinsir, sure no problem, now you face bug teams with that have both plus volcarona, scarf heracross and more, do you think your counter will be enough for this? we have breloom, cradily, ferrothorn and to some degrees mega venus and rotom, breloom with sash gone it done but we don't have all these in one team, it would be poor against some other types instead e.g. fighting, ground, steel etc. My suggestion it to ban either genesect or mega pinsir will for the least give us more space to breath. My problems is not about skymin, it about that the fact that we barely survive against a type we have disadvantages and even with advantages one. This type have 7 types that resist it and 5 weaknesses, so please don't overlook this fact. You don't know how if you don't use grass as main type in ladder. but i appreciate your opinion anyway so thank you.
P.S. Don't forget Mega pinsir has quick attack and it obliterate most of the types that weak to flying with ease without care for speed.
Gnief friar, thx for damage calculation on how ferrothorn survive from togekiss so tell me if ferro can ohko it or not if not, it is likely that one chance to kill wont save me anyway and the hax continued. Though I must say that beating flying is easier than beat bug. Also even I didnt use skymin when I laddering, it doesn't mean I never tried it with friends and I didn't see it showing off its hax power much or maybe I am an unlucky person that all.
Acast, Ghost is not useless, the one time that it was nearly useless was aegislash ban, I use ghost type as secondary type when I done with grass and its win/lose ratio is always good. It help me a lot when laddering. It still one of the better type imo.
InfernapeTropius11, I have use grass more than you do, I know that it is still winnable but the amount of counter that need to have is ridiculous high nowadays, if you face bug team with only genesect, yeah sure still winnable, if only mega pinsir, sure no problem, now you face bug teams with that have both plus volcarona, scarf heracross and more, do you think your counter will be enough for this? we have breloom, cradily, ferrothorn and to some degrees mega venus and rotom, breloom with sash gone it done but we don't have all these in one team, it would be poor against some other types instead e.g. fighting, ground, steel etc. My suggestion it to ban either genesect or mega pinsir will for the least give us more space to breath. My problems is not about skymin, it about that the fact that we barely survive against a type we have disadvantages and even with advantages one. This type have 7 types that resist it and 5 weaknesses, so please don't overlook this fact. You don't know how if you don't use grass as main type in ladder. but i appreciate your opinion anyway so thank you.
P.S. Don't forget Mega pinsir has quick attack and it obliterate most of the types that weak to flying with ease without care for speed.
So you agree that greninja chooses its walls? So I could just build by greninja to auto-win against psychic or flying, but hey, I get walled by steel types or whatever. Because it matters a lot as I'm running water and I should dismantle steel with keldeo.
How is that not creating a situation that stresses type match-ups even more? Monotype should be attempting to get all monotypes to have as even as possible match-ups regardless of type, yet you say to keep a pokemon that can auto-win against a type if you feel like running a certain set. That shouts "bad idea" at me honestly. At some point this feels like the mega metagross argument. Mega metagross completely wins against fairy, rock, and ice, but it doesn't just click meteor mash and win. You have to play a little and not get para'd by klefki or not send it in to earth powered by diancie or not try to ohko a ttar with meteor mash and take a ton of damage from crunch etc. Greninja can do the exact same thing, but you still have to play a little against flying to avoid getting para'd by a thundy-i or having a gyarados tank the ice beam or whatever. But you can still pick and choose what you win against, and that isn't balanced.
"But then you get walled by other types bla bla.."
Mega metagross doesn't do much vs. water, but it still destroys fairy, ice, and rock. Well, that's what we call over centralizing the metagame and forcing people who are trying to run fairy, ice, or rock to instead run water because it has a good core. I'm not saying that you can't run these types, but it's significantly harder to do so with mega metagross there.
The same thing can happen with greninja. It has the ability to completely destroy ground, psychic, flying (less so), and fairy. You still have to play a little, don't get klefki twaved, switch out from scarf tini, try not to hydro pump that gastrodon etc, but it creates a very unbalanced position and stresses type match-ups. I think it definitely needs to go from water because the water core is a monster and creates a situation where you can kill/damage something with greninja and then switch out to one of your stupidly bulky teammates like alomomola or empoleon or tentacruel or whatever and tank up hits and create a win-win scenario for yourself. This forces your opponent to make risky plays that could easily cost them a pokemon or even the game. i.e. Ground player goes into garchomp expecting the grass knot against his gastrodon and gets blasted by ice beam instead. rip ground team
Dark has the same stupidly good core as water at this point in time, although maybe a little less powerful. Mega sableye can tank almost every physical hit every and do a lot against special attackers. Mandibuzz is increased physical walling. Ttar and umbreon complete the special wall/tanking and form a nasty core. This core isn't as hard to deal with if you get rid of mega sableye, because it is purely linking the core together and tanking things that the others are weak to, i.e. stone edge from terrakion vs. mandibuzz or bug moves against ttar/umbreon. If you get rid of mega sableye then the type is weakened but it leaves greninja with a good chance of staying on dark, because it stops dark from doing the same thing that water does with greninja and its amazing core that is risk-free punching holes in things and switching out to tank hits just to come in and do it again..
Ban Mega Sableye on Dark for sure.
Ban Greninja on water for sure.
Ban Greninja on dark if mega sableye doesn't get banned.
I don't really understand this part. "The new goal of monotype is to make all types USABLE, not VIABLE". Are some types not usable? Sure some types are worse than others, but we can still use them. There's nothing that has ever made a type impossible to use. If you're trying to make all types more balanced and better, that's called making them viable. It doesn't really make sense to say that you are trying to make them usable when they are all usable. If your goal is to make them usable, then you don't need to do anything. I can use all 18 types. If you are trying to make all of them able to be used competitively, that's viability.
To be clear, I don't understand that sentence really.
That was nani's slogan when skymin and company were banned. I'm pretty sure it means that if, for instance, flying wins 60% of its total battles, and ice wins 40% of its total battles (total meaning against every other type,) that we no longer are trying to even the playing field so that everything is 50%.
Ferrothorn is supposed to be used as support. You can Thunder Wave the Togekiss, slowing it down so that you can switch into Mega Venusaur or Breloom which can kill it without worrying about flinches. Or if you like Choice Band Ferrothorn over utility Ferrothorn, Gyro Ball OHKOs Togekiss.
252+ Atk Choice Band Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 674-794 (180.2 - 212.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Skymin has about the same haxing power as Togekiss, if not, more thanks to Seed Flare, so I don't see how you could have so much trouble with Togekiss, but not see how much hax you're causing with Skymin. This may just have something to do with your luck or the teams you were facing, since the effectiveness of any haxing Pokemon(Jirachi, Togekiss, Skymin, etc) do depend on both of these factors.
P.S The replying system shows which person you're replying to by saying, "fat <username> said". I'm not sure why, but it's there. It's a thing.
InfernapeTropius11 Well, you can use a Type no matter how bad it is. So saying that making Types useable is the objective is shallow since all that needs to be done to complete it is give people access to a simulator with a Teambuilder. Whether it's viable to do so, as in worthwhile to use, is a key factor in making Monotype a more competitive-friendly environment. So contrasting used with viable doesn't quite make sense since one makes up the other. I think what you mean to say is that the "new" objective (as in the one that is now recognized) is to make each Type as viable as possible while accepting the natural tendency for some Types to be better than others, aka Banning what needs to be Banned even if it nerfs or encourages another Type (why Greninja should be Banned).
I realize this is semantics but how chaotic and redundant a conversation be without words used correctly?
And you don't seem to be the only person who's making this mistake either.
I don't understand why its taken this long for people to accept this philosophy when many including myself have been preaching it since 2013, but since it's taken the leader of Monotype himself to adopt it for people to understand I suggest you stick to it and make decisions with that mindset. Greninja is Broken and keeping it in Monotype to counter another Broken asset is what Ubers is for, not Monotype.
I mean I'm out of touch with the cancer that is Ban discussions and Pokemon in general but even I know that solving a problem with another problem is unhealthy and contradictory.
I realize this is semantics but how chaotic and redundant a conversation be without words used correctly?
And you don't seem to be the only person who's making this mistake either.
I don't understand why its taken this long for people to accept this philosophy when many including myself have been preaching it since 2013, but since it's taken the leader of Monotype himself to adopt it for people to understand I suggest you stick to it and make decisions with that mindset. Greninja is Broken and keeping it in Monotype to counter another Broken asset is what Ubers is for, not Monotype.
I mean I'm out of touch with the cancer that is Ban discussions and Pokemon in general but even I know that solving a problem with another problem is unhealthy and contradictory.
InfernapeTropius11
get on my level
All I was trying to say is that forcing each type to be viable is NOT the goal of monotype, as outlined by Nani Man. I agree with Nani on the new philosophy, and if I said something that appears contradictory to that then I didn't mean to--I simply wanted to point out that yes, some types will pretty much auto-lose to other types (e.g. Ice vs. Steel/Fighting, Fighting vs. Fairy, Rock vs. Ground, etc.) and that forcing all types to be viable is neither necessary nor beneficial to monotype--as long as they are reasonably competitive against a majority of the metagame, that is fine. Also, I'm reasonably certain that I agree with you, and that my comment about making types usable was a bit vague, so basically I agree with Nani, making types able to be used competitively but with some extremely difficult matchups based upon the natural weaknesses or resistances/immunities of the types in question is the new goal and it is a good one. Forcing all types to be viable is both unrealistic and extremely difficult, which is why that idea was scrapped.
Gnief friar, All your suggestion, I have tried. Sometimes it work, sometimes it not and not gonna make ferrothorn just for counter togekiss either and also do you think I would have chance to even do all that if I got 6 flinch in a row? I just battled this scenario again.... yesterday and all flinch in a row stop me from did anything possible good that I have cradily plus amnesia to hold out but it cost nearly 2 of my team just to kill one. So I know how to counter it but it bulkiness compensate for its medicore speed is sure dangerous as for skymin who has its speed to compensate for its fragility. I still think that paraflinchkiss is not fun at all and turn game into hax abused as you said with skymin so please take a look at it if you dont mind.
PS. By the way, serperior is not the answer to compensate us with the lost while others still untouched atm. Serp is good against fellow grass to some degrees and type that neutral but it wont help against fire, ice nor bug, they will not give it a chance to spam leaf storm anyway.
PS. By the way, serperior is not the answer to compensate us with the lost while others still untouched atm. Serp is good against fellow grass to some degrees and type that neutral but it wont help against fire, ice nor bug, they will not give it a chance to spam leaf storm anyway.
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