Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]

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Acast

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Let's not go down this road again. We tried it and realized it was a horrible idea. It took months to get it banned again. I'm in favor of following Mr. Einstein's words of wisdom and not repeating past mistakes. I'm honestly surprised Kyurem-W was even brought up again.
 
Just going off topic, I did wanna talk about allowing kyurem w back on ice again. Ice at the moment is the lowest used type, and it's exteremely difficult (see current core challenge) to reach 1500s. Even people who are extremely experienced in the game can admit ice has it hard. With Kyurem w back, you have a lot of perks. It can stand its own against steel teams, and probably bug teams as well, 2 of its many terrible matchups according to the website. Sure it may have a monsterous 170 special attack, and an amazing movepull, but, it does not wreck the entire metagame. Many sweepers, such as excadrill, azumarill, and terrakion, can definatley check it (azumarill namely). In terms of what it could devastate, poison already has a hard time with kyurem b, due to mold breaker, kyurem w wouldn't make much of a difference, unless your talking pouding sp def golbats. E;ectric is a matchup ice can usually hold its own in, again mostly bc of kyurem b, so once again, not much of a difference. Fairy will probably actually have an easier time, bc as mentioned a second ago, azumarill can check it fairly well. Your only real loss would be klefki, but even kyurem b's earth power would still wreck. I hope some of these points help, feel free to add on or discuss.


Let's not go down this road again. We tried it and realized it was a horrible idea. It took months to get it banned again. I'm in favor of following Mr. Einstein's words of wisdom and not repeating past mistakes. I'm honestly surprised Kyurem-W was even brought up again.
I kind of wanted to bring this up as well. When Kyruem-W and Skymin were banned for good on their respective types, I was a bit overwhelmed by the surprise of that notion, as I could not understand why two really bad types could lose two very valuable assets. At the time, I was still inexperienced enough to not see Grass as a potent threat, and believed that Skymin was invaluable to Grass because it helped eliminate S Rank threats to the type that put in so much work against Grass(assuming that Skymin was scarfed and that the threat was not against an unbalanced matchup, such as Victini on Psychic rather than on Fire). While it is true that Skymin helped deal with threats like Heatran, Yzard, Xzard, Kyruem-B, Volcarona, etc with a respective coverage move or by skillfully flinching it do death, I can now see the cancerous luck factor involved around such a mon and the overwhelming, statistical advantage that it put Grass in against neutral and unbalanced match ups, especially when used with a meme team that consisted of Thunder Wave and/or Stun Spore.

When Kyruem-W got banned for Ice, however, I saw it purely as a buff to birds, and I still believe that to this day. At the end of all of the tl;dr comments, Kyreum-W and Skymin were stated to be banned because that single mon made the type good. That is not the case with Ice. Ice is already a very potent type, and Kyreum-W actually makes it playable in high ladder. Ice has an incredibly unbalanced match up against: bug, fighting, steel, and fire, which all but one are common on the high ladder. Ice also has a bad matchup against: fairy, ghost, ground, psychic, and rock. Ice only has three balanced matchups, one of which is Water, which can easily be an auto lose thanks to Keldeo. Ice only has an unfair advantage against Dragon and Poison.

Now, when we look at the unbalanced match ups, Kyurem-W helps ice against Bug, Steel, Fire, Ground, and Psychic due to Fusion Flare, Ice Beam, Earth Power, and Draco Meteor. However, Kyreum-W fairs no better than Kyruem-B against Fighting, Rock, and Ghost(to a degree). The reason why I feel like Kyreum-W is balanced on Ice is because the type itself is weak to hazards, and Kyreum WILL take that 25% damage every time he switches in because finding the time to spin hazards on Ice is very difficult against unbalanced matchups, which makes him vulnerable to priority. His speed tier also lets him be revenged killed by faster scarfers, as he does not have reliable walls to fall back to unlike other types, especially with hazards on the field, which means that you have to sack some thing every time said scarfer comes in to get Kyreum-W out safely and counter play from there. However, when you cannot eliminate hazards, Ice is always in the short end of the stick of counter playing.

Steel users are probably cringing right now. "But Fusion Flare and Focus Blast spam 6-0s me because Steel literally has the worst defensive core in the tier, unlike Ice." When we look at statistics from January, we find that 68% of Kyreums carried a scarf, while 8% carried specs. 97% did carry Fusion Flare, but only 5% carried Focus Blast. This mean that an Ice user cannot spam either of those moves, as Doublade is immune to Fighting which forces Kyreum out to possibly take future rocks damage, putting it in the Bullet Punch range. Scarfed Fusion Flare only 5HKOs Heatran, while Focus Blast can only 2HKO. A full HP Heatran has an 81% chance to survive a scarfed Earth Power. Heatran can continue to habitually check Kyreum, and will probably end up winning in the long run unless the Ice user is just bad.

It is also important to note that no Ice type learns Fire Punch, Close Combat, or High Jump Kick, and no Ice type outside of Arceus or Castform learns Flamethrower or Fire Blast. This means that when facing Steel types not belonging to mono Steel, you will have to hit them for neutral damage, as things such as Bisharp, Empoleon, Klefki, etc have teammates who either neutralize or eliminate a Ground/ weakness for them. In fact, if you're running Ice and you are NOT running HP Fire, you may as will click X when facing Steel or Grass with Ferrothorn, because he will just meme on the whole team and rack up KOs with Gyro Ball while setting up rocks in the process. Scizor on Bug is no better, as he is bulky enough to eat HP Fires for breakfast and Roost away damage while stacking SDs.
 
Wow. Shortly after typing that there was a room tour and I came across Steel while using Ice. Funny enough, it shows how hard a good Ice user has to work to break the Immunity Core, and how I basically lost due to a crit rather than being played(granted, I could have sacked Pilo rather than making Kyruem-B useless expecting a Sucker Punch over Iron Head, but whatever). I quit because at that point, choiced Kyurem-B couldn't continue to chip the Immunity Core, unlike Kyreum-W. This also shows how Kyreum-W is almost always forced out against another choice user while choice locked, and how a bad user cannot fully abuse the strength of Kyurem-W.


http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/monotype-241628664
 
Aye. I played Omniax gud until he outplayed me when i didn't predict the crit on Lapras. Granted, I could have predicted that crit and preserved Froslass for Skarmory, but whatever.

What was that thing that you always flamed me for?
 

Entei

TIMMEHHHHHHHHHHHHhHhhhh
is a Tiering Contributor
That has nothing to do with this chat lol.
And plus you cant talk about it in chats so I guess it applies to Smogon too.
If you want to know why I do not like you very much you could have asked me in PM's.

Not sure what you are trying to do but this is the last time I am going to reply.

I really dont get why you get so upset over a tourney battle.
Also it was a weakness, give me a break.
 
I'm not upset at a room tour battle. I posted it here because it helped validate the points that I stated before having said battled. I was quite surprised that it was you because I didn't know that that was an alt of yours. Despite how they feel about me, I still look up to the better players of this tier just like you(and even Acast, who probably doesn't even remember me at this point). Anyways, this seems to have derailed a tad bit and I apologize, as that wasn't an intention.

As far as everything else that you said in your last reply: got it and good night.
 
Ugh, if people have extraneous issues such as the short conversation above with ed wins, and OminaX, please take it to pms.

Moreover, Skymin was ridiculously, I needed to run Ice Shard on Clyster or I needed to run Sap Sip Azu and hope that they do not flinch me. Skymin made Water vs Grass a literally impossible match up. Cancer...Cancer...Cancer...Cancer...

Kyurem-W, who was ignoramus that brought this up, please. It is a devastating Wallbreaker with Specs, and Scarf hits hard enough to be one as well. It has great bulk, just like Kube, it can run the same sets as Kube but better. This thing was cancer, and Acast highlight any many points to why. Ice users I am sorry, but Ice only has a few good mons, but an uber does not make anything better.
 
1, I was the igoramus that brought it up lol, 2 I never brought up skymin, tbh I'm against it bc I agree 100% with your point. 3, it is by all means manageable and didnt make ice op at all. If antlything, it made it playable in upper ladder. It could be a decent way to balance out some of the more used types right now, such as ground, dragon, water, flying, and bug. There's also the fact that ice's defensive core is pretty much shit, but avalugg can do its job in most balanced matchups. Ed wins made a point earlier that heatran is at best 5ko'D but fusion flare, and only around 5% of people ran focus blast. If you look at bug right now, it's about to be the #1 most used type bc of genesect mostly I think. I won't go and rant about bug teams, but I think you can comprehend where I'm going. Ice granted wouldn't make #1 in a million years, but, people can actually have a much easier time with kyurem w, making at least 1500s. It's definitely not a bad idea to consider it again.
 

Entei

TIMMEHHHHHHHHHHHHhHhhhh
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1, I was the igoramus that brought it up lol, 2 I never brought up skymin, tbh I'm against it bc I agree 100% with your point. 3, it is by all means manageable and didnt make ice op at all. If antlything, it made it playable in upper ladder. It could be a decent way to balance out some of the more used types right now, such as ground, dragon, water, flying, and bug. There's also the fact that ice's defensive core is pretty much shit, but avalugg can do its job in most balanced matchups. Ed wins made a point earlier that heatran is at best 5ko'D but fusion flare, and only around 5% of people ran focus blast. If you look at bug right now, it's about to be the #1 most used type bc of genesect mostly I think. I won't go and rant about bug teams, but I think you can comprehend where I'm going. Ice granted wouldn't make #1 in a million years, but, people can actually have a much easier time with kyurem w, making at least 1500s. It's definitely not a bad idea to consider it again.
You were told 2 posts ago to not bring KyuW back, why are you doing this x.x
 

scpinion

Life > Monotype... unfortunately :)
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Hey guys, some changes I want to inform everyone on!

Tiering Philosophy

The old goal was to create a metagame where all types would be near equal and all can be used fairly. This was flawed and only promotes type matchup mattering, rather than skill. We tried this and it failed, and now we have moved to a new goal explained below.

The new goal is to create a balanced metagame, such that all types can be used. The keyword here is used. This doesn't mean all types must be equally viable, but rather usable and competitive. As I've stated before, the beauty of monotype is to defeat Fire with Steel, Electric with Water and so on. Making all those types forcefully equal just results in type matchup mattering, meaning Fire would definitely beat Steel, Electric would definitely beat Water and so on.

Reasoning to ban

Things to look for when deciding to discuss and potentially ban a pokemon, is usually the following checklist:

If a pokemon creates an auto-win condition such as Talonflame did (+1 Brave Bird vs Grass/Bug/Fighting), it is overpowered and will be banned.

1. If a pokemon promotes type based matchups mattering a whole lot more, it will also be banned. (eg Kyurem-W,Skymin)

2. If the pokemon itself is broken by either a) team support or b) natural strength, it will be banned. (eg Mega Slowbro/Mence)

3. If the pokemon forms a deadly core that cannot be beaten by most teams, it will be banned. (eg Aegislash on Steel)

Kyurem-White definitely promotes type based matchups, and is extremely powerful.
Shaymin-Sky is the same case as above, bonus haxy.

Throughout the thread, we've seen countless discussion about Kyurem-White and Shaymin-Sky, and in reality, they served their purpose for our long trial and are now banned back to ubers.
This is worth bringing up again at this point. I deleted some of the stuff from Nani's post about Gallade and Sableye because they are not relevant to what was just brought up. The reasoning for banning Kyu-W is up there, and is still a valid point.

Most importantly, Ice conforms to our tiering philosophy: "The new goal is to create a balanced metagame, such that all types can be used. The keyword here is used. This doesn't mean all types must be equally viable, but rather usable and competitive."

ed wins Ice is certainly usable, which your replay shows. You were doing really well vs. a good player, with a type advantage, until you sacked Kyu-b to that Iron Head. Ice isn't going to be a type that wins consistently, but it isn't completely un-playable either.
 
I kind of wanted to bring this up as well. When Kyruem-W and Skymin were banned for good on their respective types, I was a bit overwhelmed by the surprise of that notion, as I could not understand why two really bad types could lose two very valuable assets. At the time, I was still inexperienced enough to not see Grass as a potent threat, and believed that Skymin was invaluable to Grass because it helped eliminate S Rank threats to the type that put in so much work against Grass(assuming that Skymin was scarfed and that the threat was not against an unbalanced matchup, such as Victini on Psychic rather than on Fire). While it is true that Skymin helped deal with threats like Heatran, Yzard, Xzard, Kyruem-B, Volcarona, etc with a respective coverage move or by skillfully flinching it do death, I can now see the cancerous luck factor involved around such a mon and the overwhelming, statistical advantage that it put Grass in against neutral and unbalanced match ups, especially when used with a meme team that consisted of Thunder Wave and/or Stun Spore.

When Kyruem-W got banned for Ice, however, I saw it purely as a buff to birds, and I still believe that to this day. At the end of all of the tl;dr comments, Kyreum-W and Skymin were stated to be banned because that single mon made the type good. That is not the case with Ice. Ice is already a very potent type, and Kyreum-W actually makes it playable in high ladder. Ice has an incredibly unbalanced match up against: bug, fighting, steel, and fire, which all but one are common on the high ladder. Ice also has a bad matchup against: fairy, ghost, ground, psychic, and rock. Ice only has three balanced matchups, one of which is Water, which can easily be an auto lose thanks to Keldeo. Ice only has an unfair advantage against Dragon and Poison.

Now, when we look at the unbalanced match ups, Kyurem-W helps ice against Bug, Steel, Fire, Ground, and Psychic due to Fusion Flare, Ice Beam, Earth Power, and Draco Meteor. However, Kyreum-W fairs no better than Kyruem-B against Fighting, Rock, and Ghost(to a degree). The reason why I feel like Kyreum-W is balanced on Ice is because the type itself is weak to hazards, and Kyreum WILL take that 25% damage every time he switches in because finding the time to spin hazards on Ice is very difficult against unbalanced matchups, which makes him vulnerable to priority. His speed tier also lets him be revenged killed by faster scarfers, as he does not have reliable walls to fall back to unlike other types, especially with hazards on the field, which means that you have to sack some thing every time said scarfer comes in to get Kyreum-W out safely and counter play from there. However, when you cannot eliminate hazards, Ice is always in the short end of the stick of counter playing.

Steel users are probably cringing right now. "But Fusion Flare and Focus Blast spam 6-0s me because Steel literally has the worst defensive core in the tier, unlike Ice." When we look at statistics from January, we find that 68% of Kyreums carried a scarf, while 8% carried specs. 97% did carry Fusion Flare, but only 5% carried Focus Blast. This mean that an Ice user cannot spam either of those moves, as Doublade is immune to Fighting which forces Kyreum out to possibly take future rocks damage, putting it in the Bullet Punch range. Scarfed Fusion Flare only 5HKOs Heatran, while Focus Blast can only 2HKO. A full HP Heatran has an 81% chance to survive a scarfed Earth Power. Heatran can continue to habitually check Kyreum, and will probably end up winning in the long run unless the Ice user is just bad.

It is also important to note that no Ice type learns Fire Punch, Close Combat, or High Jump Kick, and no Ice type outside of Arceus or Castform learns Flamethrower or Fire Blast. This means that when facing Steel types not belonging to mono Steel, you will have to hit them for neutral damage, as things such as Bisharp, Empoleon, Klefki, etc have teammates who either neutralize or eliminate a Ground/ weakness for them. In fact, if you're running Ice and you are NOT running HP Fire, you may as will click X when facing Steel or Grass with Ferrothorn, because he will just meme on the whole team and rack up KOs with Gyro Ball while setting up rocks in the process. Scizor on Bug is no better, as he is bulky enough to eat HP Fires for breakfast and Roost away damage while stacking SDs.
Refer to this post, Ed explained it perfectly, and a million times better than I could.
 

DoW

formally Death on Wings

Kyu-w helped ice against steel. That said, it helped ice vs. things like grass, poison etc.
The important thing, of course, is that it was immensely borked.
 

Entei

TIMMEHHHHHHHHHHHHhHhhhh
is a Tiering Contributor
Refer to this post, Ed explained it perfectly, and a million times better than I could.
Could you just look at this once more?



Let's not go down this road again. We tried it and realized it was a horrible idea. It took months to get it banned again. I'm in favor of following Mr. Einstein's words of wisdom and not repeating past mistakes. I'm honestly surprised Kyurem-W was even brought up again.
 
This is worth bringing up again at this point. I deleted some of the stuff from Nani's post about Gallade and Sableye because they are not relevant to what was just brought up. The reasoning for banning Kyu-W is up there, and is still a valid point.

Most importantly, Ice conforms to our tiering philosophy: "The new goal is to create a balanced metagame, such that all types can be used. The keyword here is used. This doesn't mean all types must be equally viable, but rather usable and competitive."

ed wins Ice is certainly usable, which your replay shows. You were doing really well vs. a good player, with a type advantage, until you sacked Kyu-b to that Iron Head. Ice isn't going to be a type that wins consistently, but it isn't completely un-playable either.
Before I hop off, I did wanna talk about this. Ice rn is usable, but it's pretty much one sided and your forced to run certain moves for only a few specific pokemon, which is a bit of a waste of a move slot at times. So yes, I guess you can consider it usable, but by very barely. The point is to make the tier as balanced as possible. Look at the billions of flying teams and genesects running around. Kyurem can solve and balance a lot of the dominating forces in the meta rn, and at the same time make ice usable in upper ladder, which as said, it is extremely barely usable, and 60% of the time you have to rely on luck. I don't know how else to put it tbh, bc ed sorta stole my thunder a bit xD (no offense but, well worded btw)
 

Entei

TIMMEHHHHHHHHHHHHhHhhhh
is a Tiering Contributor
Before I hop off, I did wanna talk about this. Ice rn is usable, but it's pretty much one sided and your forced to run certain moves for only a few specific pokemon, which is a bit of a waste of a move slot at times. So yes, I guess you can consider it usable, but by very barely. The point is to make the tier as balanced as possible. Look at the billions of flying teams and genesects running around. Kyurem can solve and balance a lot of the dominating forces in the meta rn, and at the same time make ice usable in upper ladder, which as said, it is extremely barely usable, and 60% of the time you have to rely on luck. I don't know how else to put it tbh, bc ed sorta stole my thunder a bit xD (no offense but, well worded btw)
I plead you to stop pursuing this, it will NOT get unbanned in this generation, and most likely neither in the next, or the following.
 
I tbh don't see why it wouldnt, especially when a couple of us already explaned and proved that it is managable. At the same time, I havent seen you make 1 point to why you think it would be a bad idea, besides repeatedly saying it's op.
 

Entei

TIMMEHHHHHHHHHHHHhHhhhh
is a Tiering Contributor
I tbh don't see why it wouldnt, especially when a couple of us already explaned and proved that it is managable. At the same time, I havent seen you make 1 point to why you think it would be a bad idea, besides repeatedly saying it's op.
I dont need to, it has been unbanned for about a month or so, Im not sure exactly how long cause its been a while, and it has been rebanned. Which makes it twice now. Why go through it again?
 
Well, why do you think it's gonna make the metagame unbalanced? Make some points about it. Like how in the course of that month did kyurem w get the notion ob being banned?
 

scpinion

Life > Monotype... unfortunately :)
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
This is worth bringing up again at this point. I deleted some of the stuff from Nani's post about Gallade and Sableye because they are not relevant to what was just brought up. The reasoning for banning Kyu-W is up there, and is still a valid point.

Most importantly, Ice conforms to our tiering philosophy: "The new goal is to create a balanced metagame, such that all types can be used. The keyword here is used. This doesn't mean all types must be equally viable, but rather usable and competitive."

ed wins Ice is certainly usable, which your replay shows. You were doing really well vs. a good player, with a type advantage, until you sacked Kyu-b to that Iron Head. Ice isn't going to be a type that wins consistently, but it isn't completely un-playable either.
You are correct. Ice is definitely playable, but only on the lower and mid end of the ladder. High ladder match ups are way too skewed for Ice to properly hold its own. I challenge any one against Kyurem-W on Ice to make a fresh alt and make your way to at least a 1600+ ELO with a semi decent GXE, and then post their new opinion on the matter here, if a new opinion did end up arising. Apart from Flying, any matchup VS Kyruem-W is NOT a one sided matchup. Even then, Flying still struggles with Ice, and Kyurem-B still has a very fun time versus Flying.

Nani stated that we want a meta game where every type is competitive. Is an unbalanced match up vs Ice(which is quite a bit), where the Ice user constantly has to out predict the other user, win various 50/50, and then, still have to big possibility of losing due to one single misplay, flinch or crit? How is that COMPETITIVE(if you think that factoring in an Iron Head flinch that can and WILL screw Ice users over is unrealistic, then please disregard this last tidbit)?

Kyruem-W is not an autopilot mon. You cannot simply lead with him and 6-0 teams. If you want to talk about making every type competitive, then you'll have to make Ice more competitive by banning Keldeo, Terrakion on Fighting, Scizor, Excadrill, Medicham, Bisharp, Ferrothorn, and any thing else that makes Ice completely useless in high ladder. Am I being absurd? Yes. However, you cannot be against Kyruem-W on Ice without acknowledging the fact that without it, Ice is unplayable in high ladder. In fact, when Kyruem-W was legal, Ice still only saw a usage of 3%.

Mono is an OM, so we'll probably never get the luxury of a suspect test. However, I believe that a suspect test can be so essential here, and people are either vehemently against making Ice playable, or are pro Kyurem-W, but have no way of trying to justify his cause against a sea of people who don't want him back.
 
Okay, can we not even consider Kyurem-White? I know Flying is still broken, but that's no reason to unban something completely unbalanced. We're not unbanning Shaymin-Sky again, that much is obvious. We're not unbanning Arceus-Rock, Arceus-Poison, Giratina-O, Talonflame, or Zekrom for the other weak types, either, are we? In fact, we're not even considering them. Why should we consider Kyurem-White for an unban when Ice doesn't even have the worst win-rate out of all of the types, despite being called the worst type?
 
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