Flying isn't Broken.
Although things like Malaria & ChariXard should be looked at, you can't call a type broken overall because of one Pokemon.
Same thing with Ice, Ice is far from being broken but KyuW is.
Just wanted to clear this up ;/
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Although things like Malaria & ChariXard should be looked at, you can't call a type broken overall because of one Pokemon.
Same thing with Ice, Ice is far from being broken but KyuW is.
Just wanted to clear this up ;/
Alright, i'll try to restart the thread with:
Bug has proven itself to be an incredibly good type, being 2nd in usage stats ever since the latest metagame update. Genesect is on 76% on all bug teams and the 2nd most used on the type. It's no surprise - decent bulk and fantastic offensive stats as well as the Download ability makes it have extremely large offensive pressure, and it packs a nice movepool both on the physical and special side. It's mostly used as a scarfed mixed attacker with Ice Beam, Flamethrower, U-Turn and a filler move such as Iron Head. It gives bug some better type coverage, but is this too much for certain types? Some cannot deal with the moves that it can possibly use, and U-Turn gives it momentum to switch out of a defensive or offensive check. Main point: It's an incredible offensive Pokemon that is difficult to revenge kill.
Other potential topics:
Easy sweep on Dark, Ground and Steel teams with Substitute + Calm Mind set
Great sweeper with several potential sets, high power and very good natural bulk
Other potential topics:
Okay, Genesect is fairly borked not going to lie about that one.
Keldeo is great in 3 match ups, and one of those your win regardless because of you teammates. Keldeo is useless when Mega-Venusaur is in the battle, and Flying stops it well. Keldeo is useless in a couple match ups, but it is really good in others, I see nothing wrong with this.
Mega-Altaria is very strong, but Dragon lacks the support necessary to make it broken.
Keldeo is great in 3 match ups, and one of those your win regardless because of you teammates. Keldeo is useless when Mega-Venusaur is in the battle, and Flying stops it well. Keldeo is useless in a couple match ups, but it is really good in others, I see nothing wrong with this.
Mega-Altaria is very strong, but Dragon lacks the support necessary to make it broken.
As a Steel user, Keldeo is the most annoying thing for me to deal with by far. It's frustrating to know that something on your team is going to die once Keldeo safely gets on the field, especially if that Keldeo is specs and I have a slow pokemon out (which is almost all of my team). Predicting whether it's scarf or specs is yet another factor that makes it much more difficult to deal with.
Now, having said all that, I grudgingly admit that Keldeo does not deserve any sort of ban or nerf. As much as I wish I never had to battle it, I don't see it being on the same level as Talonflame or Mega Metagross.
Neutral on Genesect and Mega Altaria.
Now, having said all that, I grudgingly admit that Keldeo does not deserve any sort of ban or nerf. As much as I wish I never had to battle it, I don't see it being on the same level as Talonflame or Mega Metagross.
Neutral on Genesect and Mega Altaria.
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Genesect deserves to be looked at because of its speed, movepool, and similar yet great offensive stats, which sums up to unpredictability.Alright, i'll try to restart the thread with:
Bug has proven itself to be an incredibly good type, being 2nd in usage stats ever since the latest metagame update. Genesect is on 76% on all bug teams and the 2nd most used on the type. It's no surprise - decent bulk and fantastic offensive stats as well as the Download ability makes it have extremely large offensive pressure, and it packs a nice movepool both on the physical and special side. It's mostly used as a scarfed mixed attacker with Ice Beam, Flamethrower, U-Turn and a filler move such as Iron Head. It gives bug some better type coverage, but is this too much for certain types? Some cannot deal with the moves that it can possibly use, and U-Turn gives it momentum to switch out of a defensive or offensive check. Main point: It's an incredible offensive Pokemon that is difficult to revenge kill.
Other potential topics:
Easy sweep on Dark, Ground and Steel teams with Substitute + Calm Mind set
Great sweeper with several potential sets, high power and very good natural bulk
It is true it is usually ran as a scarf special sweeper with a stab U-Turn to pivot out of messy situations or just to damage all sorts of things.
But if you're a bug user, and you run Sticky Web ( which according to the stats of May, 62.89% of bug teams have Galvantula, and 92.2% of them run Sticky Web ) you can even run a different item to boost your chosen offense, heck even run a mixed genesect for both ExtremeSpeed and U-Turn, and a couple/3 coverage moves.
1 of Genesect's greatest perks is, its the only viable Bug type Pokemon that has access to an Ice Beam ( Would this post get deleted if I dont mention Surskit? o3o ).
Another one is it's ability, as Red mentioned, aside from being extremely fast and unpredictable, it also gets a x1.5 boost for one of its offensive stats when it comes in, which applies EVEN MORE pressure on the opponent since they have to guess what exactly does it run.
If I may add, this is a bit Similar to Greninja, great speed, Great and almost similar offensive stats, huge and fully viable movepool, but instead of Protean it gets Download.
Genesect applies HUGE pressure on a majority of the types Dragon(ScarfBeam with or without webs sweeps everything)/Flying(BoltBeam)/Fairy(Steel STAB)/Ground(EBall/IceBeam)/Water(Tbolt/EBall)/Ice(STAB Steel/Flamethrower)/Rock(STAB Steel)/Steel(Flamethrower)/Other Bugs(Flamethrower) and Poison(Ice Beam for Nido's/Bats , Steel STAB works fine the rest/TBolt for Tenta).
And obviously what bug has an advantage against, if its Psychic,Dark or Grass.
Im not saying you should or can in any way run 6 moves, Im just trying to show you how diverse it is, and thats just how it's Special set works.
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Keldeo is fine. Water has suffered enough for the time being, although it was justified. (xd)
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However, Mega-Altaria, single handedly sweeps Dark, Fighting, Electric, Fire (If the pressure from the Fire user's side is not enough to scare it off and not let it set up) and Dragon teams.
It has access to Roost/DragonDance/An incredibly powerful stab to go with its Pixilate/EQ for its own Poison&Steel coverage/and Heal Bell to assist the entire team.
Or the special Hyper Voice/Fire Blast Roost & Heal Bell/Iron Defense set which also works very nicely.
It also deserves to be looked at.
Apologies for the double post but I feel this is worth a notification instead of just editing.
For the past 3 weeks I have been laddering & playing in a lot of Mono tournies. There has been a rise in the usage of Gravity on Landorus-I.
Hopefully June's stats will be here soon so it could strengthen this post.
I'm here to suggest something new.
Gravity(Type Ban to ground or both since using it on flying is like stabbing yourself on the wing) + Smooth Rock ban
Your thoughts?
For the past 3 weeks I have been laddering & playing in a lot of Mono tournies. There has been a rise in the usage of Gravity on Landorus-I.
Hopefully June's stats will be here soon so it could strengthen this post.
I'm here to suggest something new.
Gravity(Type Ban to ground or both since using it on flying is like stabbing yourself on the wing) + Smooth Rock ban
Your thoughts?
OmniaX, do you imply a ban of both Gravity and Smooth Rock or a clause that doesn't allow you to use them both on one team?
The post says + so, Both.
If that isnt going to be considered, I guess I'm fine with Smooth Rock ban, after all it is just a suggestion.
Although Gravity is extremely useful for Ground teams, I don't feel that it's OP / deserves a ban - it lasts only 4 turns (factoring in the turn it takes to use), there's no item that prolongs its duration, and it's only available on Landorus - meaning that it's pressured to use it again if it has to, but there will be a limit to how many times it can use it.
Sorry for the short post.
Sorry for the short post.
thesecondbest
Just Kidding I'm First
Can we discuss legalizing gengarite? It was banned in other metas for its uncompetitiveness and ability to allow a teammate to sweep. However, in monotype, the best sweeper on Ghost is probably Starf Berry Trevenant Calm Mind Mega Sableye, which obviously cant be used alongside megagar, or autonomize aegislash, which is pretty bad. On poison there is nidoking and scolipede. Both these types have quite low usage and bad matchups vs prominent types - Ghost barely has a good record against psychic when in theory it should demolish it. Ghosts only good matchup is a barely good one v bug and poison is barely good vs water. So I don't think Mega Gengar would necessarily be broken. Thoughts?
As for the ground thing just ban smooth rock, damp rock is gone and smooth rock is similarly uncompetitive.
As for the ground thing just ban smooth rock, damp rock is gone and smooth rock is similarly uncompetitive.
InfernapeTropius11
get on my level
Why would you think Mega Gengar is not broken in monotype ._.
It would promote type based matchups, which is something we do not want. It may be useless against some monotypes (like Ground), but it has enough speed and power to threaten every type, and it's Perish Trap set is guaranteed to get a kill against many Pokemon that can't KO, and basically invalidates stall of any kind. It obliterated Chansey, outspeeds and KOs most non-Scarfers, and is unpredictable. It's Stallbreaker, Perish Trap, and AoA sets all have different checks and Counters, but Shadow Tag means the user chooses which Pokemon it attacks. If Mega Gengar doesn't get at LEAST one kill per game in this meta imo its not being used right. It was almost too much for ubers, and is being suspected in others ubers based metagame where the power is MUCH higher than in monotype, and it was way too broken for OU (what this meta is based loosely around). It can trap and kill whatever it wants too, and forces you to play differently just because of the possibility of it using one of its sets. Mega Gengar is firmly broken imo, due to its high 130 speed and 170 spA, as well as the unpredictability of not knowing if it is an offensive set or a Perish Trapper, and that it chooses what it kills due to Shadow Tag. Mega Gengar is broken DO NOT UNBAN
It would promote type based matchups, which is something we do not want. It may be useless against some monotypes (like Ground), but it has enough speed and power to threaten every type, and it's Perish Trap set is guaranteed to get a kill against many Pokemon that can't KO, and basically invalidates stall of any kind. It obliterated Chansey, outspeeds and KOs most non-Scarfers, and is unpredictable. It's Stallbreaker, Perish Trap, and AoA sets all have different checks and Counters, but Shadow Tag means the user chooses which Pokemon it attacks. If Mega Gengar doesn't get at LEAST one kill per game in this meta imo its not being used right. It was almost too much for ubers, and is being suspected in others ubers based metagame where the power is MUCH higher than in monotype, and it was way too broken for OU (what this meta is based loosely around). It can trap and kill whatever it wants too, and forces you to play differently just because of the possibility of it using one of its sets. Mega Gengar is firmly broken imo, due to its high 130 speed and 170 spA, as well as the unpredictability of not knowing if it is an offensive set or a Perish Trapper, and that it chooses what it kills due to Shadow Tag. Mega Gengar is broken DO NOT UNBAN
thesecondbest
Just Kidding I'm First
I understand that mega gengar is good, heck i was the first one to say STAG was broken in the Mix-And-Mega forums. But it is broken in its one insane niche, not because it instakills everything in sight. As an offensive sweeper I would equate to Mega Alakazam, who is not at all broken and is on an insane type. Ghost and poison are both struggling types. It was broken in a team support aspect, not because it sweeps teams. It might be broken, but it is NOWHERE near as good as it is in other tiers. Especially on bad types, I don't think it is as good as you make it out to be. Plus shadow ball, icy wind, hidden power, basically gar's entire moveset besides focus blast is below 100 base power, unlike other threats that exist, like Char-X (not saying it's broken but 120>80).
In the not-too-distant past we unbanned two ubers (Kyurem-White and Shaymin-Sky) to help out two mediocre types (Ice and Grass respectively). We let them stay for a few months until it was decided that they were too much for our metagame and it was in our best interest to change our goals regarding bans and unbans. Nani Man essentially told us that we would no longer be trying to balance the types. From then on we would only be ensuring that each type is usable, regardless of its actual viability on the ladder. Ghost and Poison are not great types, but they are no where near the same level of desperation that Ice and Grass are at. On top of that, as InfernapeTropius11 stated, Gengar was nearly banned from Ubers, which is a fairly strong argument in favor of Mega Gengar being better than either Kyurem-W or Shaymin-S. Given all this information, I have one simple question for you.
What makes you think that unbanning Mega Gengar would be any better than unbanning Kyurem-White or Shaymin-Sky and how would the result be different from our past experience with ubers in this metagame?
thesecondbest
Just Kidding I'm First
Skymin was banned from ou for uncompetetiveness. Kyu-W was banned for having insane power. Mega Gengar was banned for the team support aspect. When your team is so bad because your type is fairly pathetic, I don't think that reason is sufficient to ban. If people don't want to balance the types, then I don't know why anything should be banned. This might be too good, but I don't think it is, and I want people to actually consider it.
DoW
formally Death on Wings
Skymin was banned from OU for uncompetitiveness, and was too uncompetitive in mono so it got rebanned here as well. Kyu-W was banned for having insane power, both in OU and here. M-Gengar can basically take out any pokemon you want taken out, allowing any other mon to sweep. I'm not saying either poison or ghost has particularly good sweepers, but if you couldn't get it to work with either Aegislash or Scolipede I'd be extremely surprised.
Mega Gar makes strong and fast mons almost impossible to kill since it gets rid of walls. Lets use Band Scoli as an example. That gets walled by avalugg on Ice teams. But you can easily trap it and kill it with Gengar (You could run Shed Shell, but youd get swept by Excadrill. And if every mon runs Shed Shell then that's unhealthy) Once Avalugg's gone Scoli can pretty much sweep. This is going to happen to teams with only 1 answer to a certain Pokemon. It's even worse for stall, might as well say good bye to everything or run Psychic Chansey xd
Here are my opinions on what should be suspected next after the final verdict about Smooth Rock will be decided:
Genesect, Mega Altaria
RedsCharizard Im using your post cause you also have very good points, so thank you.
Mega Sableye, on both types.
Its incredibly bulky, it has access to a Snarl which is a DARK move which is boosted by Calm Mind AND lowers the opponent's SpA.
It has access to Will-O-Wisp which is good against every single type besides Fire.
And it also has a very reliable recovery, which is Recover ._.
I know some of you will probably hate me for this but ghost already has one uber, and we have user: Argus, that has 4 alts in top 15 on the ladder, with 82+ gxe on each and every one, one of them had(until he tilted , rip) 89.4 GXE, he used ghost the entire time, without Mega Sableye.
Tagging Kammi to post the pic of his peak for proof.
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Zard X perhaps? And consider bringing Zapdos back? will post a quote of one of my other posts regarding Zard X later , impossible from mobile, apologies x.x
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A nerf for normal.
It has a solid core of Raptor/Chansey/ Pory2 which is VERY hard to break for many many types.
Eviolite clause perhaps?
Genesect, Mega Altaria
RedsCharizard Im using your post cause you also have very good points, so thank you.
Alright, i'll try to restart the thread with:
Bug has proven itself to be an incredibly good type, being 2nd in usage stats ever since the latest metagame update. Genesect is on 76% on all bug teams and the 2nd most used on the type. It's no surprise - decent bulk and fantastic offensive stats as well as the Download ability makes it have extremely large offensive pressure, and it packs a nice movepool both on the physical and special side. It's mostly used as a scarfed mixed attacker with Ice Beam, Flamethrower, U-Turn and a filler move such as Iron Head. It gives bug some better type coverage, but is this too much for certain types? Some cannot deal with the moves that it can possibly use, and U-Turn gives it momentum to switch out of a defensive or offensive check. Main point: It's an incredible offensive Pokemon that is difficult to revenge kill.
Other potential topics:
Easy sweep on Dark, Ground and Steel teams with Substitute + Calm Mind set
Great sweeper with several potential sets, high power and very good natural bulk
------------------
Mega Sableye, on both types.
Its incredibly bulky, it has access to a Snarl which is a DARK move which is boosted by Calm Mind AND lowers the opponent's SpA.
It has access to Will-O-Wisp which is good against every single type besides Fire.
And it also has a very reliable recovery, which is Recover ._.
I know some of you will probably hate me for this but ghost already has one uber, and we have user: Argus, that has 4 alts in top 15 on the ladder, with 82+ gxe on each and every one, one of them had(until he tilted , rip) 89.4 GXE, he used ghost the entire time, without Mega Sableye.
Tagging Kammi to post the pic of his peak for proof.
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Zard X perhaps? And consider bringing Zapdos back? will post a quote of one of my other posts regarding Zard X later , impossible from mobile, apologies x.x
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A nerf for normal.
It has a solid core of Raptor/Chansey/ Pory2 which is VERY hard to break for many many types.
Eviolite clause perhaps?
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I didn't realize we were even still talking about Smooth Rock, but ok.
As I said before, I'm neutral on Genesect and M-Altaria.
I'm neutral on M-Sableye too, but I just want to point out that Argus's feat of topping the ladder with a non-Mega Sableye ghost team is irrelevant to whether or not Sableye should be banned. If the only reason we're keeping Mega Sableye around is so that Ghost is somewhat decent, then it should have been banned a long time ago. The Shaymin-S and Kyu-W incident showed us that we are not going to keep OP pokemon around just to make a type good. Whether Ghost can afford to lose Mega Sableye or not doesn't matter. The argument is whether M-Sab is just too OP on Ghost and Dark teams to keep around.
I agree Zard X should be looked at a little more seriously. Even if we have discussed it in the past, I feel that those discussions weren't entirely calm and intelligent debates. However, I don't know why you want to consider bringing Zapdos back. I think the Zapdos ban was a good idea and it semi-accomplished its intended goal. Flying may still be towards the top of usage, but the margin between it and the next most used type is extremely small (only 0.27% difference).
Normal doesn't need a nerf. Knock off is widespread enough that it's not that big of an issue. Even for the types that have a difficult time facing it, it's never a no-win situation.
Normal is one of the most balanced types we have. It has clear weaknesses that almost every type can exploit. As Acast said, click knock off and that core crumbles. The move is also widely distributed.
I'm still convinced the metagame is quite healthy at the moment. As always, I could be proven wrong with the next stats release, but the only thing I think we should consider at the moment is a slight nerf to ground.
That said, I'll bandwagon again and agree a civil discussion on charX would be a good thing to have. It is the most (individually) broken Pokémon in the meta.
I'm still convinced the metagame is quite healthy at the moment. As always, I could be proven wrong with the next stats release, but the only thing I think we should consider at the moment is a slight nerf to ground.
That said, I'll bandwagon again and agree a civil discussion on charX would be a good thing to have. It is the most (individually) broken Pokémon in the meta.
Altaria is more broken than Zard imo. Alt can literally differentiate it's moveset to take on whatever type it feels like, even those with advantages vs it. It doesn't have one sole counter, and even checking it can be extremely difficult thanks to it's great bulk, resistances to most priority, ability to become damn near impossible to kill on the physical side with Cotton Guard and stuff like Sub, Special Agility, Refresh / Heal Bell can fuck up would-be good answers to it. I just feel like every time I play against an Altaria, I'm saccing one mon to attempt to discern the set, and even when I know the set it's a massive issue to deal with cos I likely only have a shaky check remaining. This is excluding all the types that it straight up fucks over and that can only hope to check it by saccing a mon and getting their answer in every time, such as Fighting or Dark. That's not too huge an issue though because this is mono and certain types will always struggle to deal with certain threats, for me it's more it's ability to cater itself to beating particular teams.
While Zard is undoubtedly a threat, it only really has 2 sets, in it's DD set and it's spdef set. The SpDef set isn't that much of an issue, and the DD set is flawed in that it either has to choose between power, longevity or coverage. There's also the fact that Zard will always struggle in certain matchups regardless of what set it runs, while the same can't be said for Altaria. I think the only matchup where it's legitimately always in a bad position is Ice.
While Zard is undoubtedly a threat, it only really has 2 sets, in it's DD set and it's spdef set. The SpDef set isn't that much of an issue, and the DD set is flawed in that it either has to choose between power, longevity or coverage. There's also the fact that Zard will always struggle in certain matchups regardless of what set it runs, while the same can't be said for Altaria. I think the only matchup where it's legitimately always in a bad position is Ice.
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I would just like to say that 1. it was 4 alts in the top 20, not top 15 (3 in the top 10) and 2. Argus is just one user (also I don't have a screenshot, but the alts were Everybdy Dies, rof1a Argus, Satan Shin Hit, and Argus2Spooky, so you can /rank him if you want). He's incredibly good with Ghost and has been using it for a long time, but Ghost is a difficult type to pick up and certainly no one else is as good with it as he is (he also has no life so he spends a lot of time on the ladder). I think that this "Argus can do it, so why can't you" argument is kind of..demeaning, to an extent. You're comparing everyone who uses the type to the BEST user of it and saying to "git gud, scrubs". What about the people that are just starting with Ghost? It's not used that much now, and taking off Mega Sableye will only drop its usage. Yes, the best ghost user can use the type without Mega Sab, but the pokemon overall makes it easier to pick up the type and see what it can do, which I think is good for the tier. Tagging Argus2Spooky for his thoughts, although he rarely checks smogon.
See my previous post http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-tiering-updates.3493087/page-47#post-5967072 here for my entire reasoning on Mega Sableye. Not much has changed, to be honest. There are also several immediate answers to Mega Sableye, like Lando-i, Keldeo, Hydreigon, Lati@s, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Altaria, Clefable, Diancie, Porygon Z and Mega Audino (both of which are rising in usage), Magnezone, Togekiss, Mega Camerupt, Manaphy, Tentacruel, etc. the list goes on. These are all pokemon that it can't come in on, and often pokemon that force it out even after it has CM'ed once. By now, I feel that every type has worked out a check or counter to Mega Sableye, and I don't see much point in removing it. People have figured out how to play around it, force it out, and kill it, even though it is a fantastic wall. Also, your arguments are also pretty weak in the fact that a.) almost every single ghost gets will-o-wisp and almost every single type has access to a fire pokemon or something to absorb burns (what team is entirely burn-weak? that's just a bit silly) and b.) Snarl is run on 7.4% of Sableye on Ghost and 2.2% of Sableye on Dark.
tl;dr Argus is "special" and there are answers to Mega Sableye in the metagame (which is why he's using regular Sableye, I might add). Does not need a ban at this point in time.
Corrected 'Against fire' to 'Besides fire' on my post, 'twas a mistake :/
Isn't that what KyuW and Skymin were banned? Because one single Pokemon boosts the type's viability and promotes the type as a whole and reverses the outcome of a lost match?
I mentioned snarl because it's a better strat, dark pulse is more powerful but snarl is generally more effective.
Plus. Yes, I am saying if one single person did it, it's possible to everyone else.
If it's POSSIBLE then yes every one else can do it after LEARNING the type instead of clicking 4 moves and sweeping, I agree not against EVERY type, but almost a half of all types. (Poison/electric/ice/fighting/ghost(luck war basically, which one crits first),psychic (unless there is a banded victini involved, or a mega gardevoir.),ground(is somewhat problematic with most of the squad being physical and you can just click WoW and cripple everything, which as you mentioned, ghost has plenty of)... the types I didnt mention are pretty neutral either for being actual checks for mega sab or being an anti typing( fire & fairy ) the rest of the types either have 1/2 almost fully reliable checks to it or more.
If Ghost was bad he wouldn't go anywhere near that ranking and especially not a record breaking GXE with Ghost.
what a fucking god lmao. (Thanks to Kammi for the screenie)
My main point is, Ghost is obviously playable, and if youre going for the arguement it needs mega sableye to stay good, then its basically KyuW and Skymin all over again.
I do want to point out individually, it is not as bad as those two.
But its one of those pokemon that a setup is usually inevitable, with cm/recover/wow with its Prankster, then wall and KO almost everything with whatever STAB you decide to run.
And so is dark, what happened to it getting a quickban on Dark?
Now I know I mentioned a ton of almost and usually and stuff, but its because it may or may not get haxed, may or may not expect this or that switch in or out, I do not know what's going in people's minds or what kind of game sense they have, we all have a different one, experinced players, average players, veterans, newbies, bla bla and bla.
But when I see a pokemon that causes this much problem to types that are already hard to use and some average ones, it should certainly be looked at.
A "special" player or not, he literally proved ghost is PLAYABLE & VIABLE on the upper ladder, and it doesnt require mega sableye to work out well.
If you want to play ghost, learn the type, thats what we all do, with every type, dont just click tacticlessly click 4 moves and sweep.
I was saying, if ChariXard were to be banned, THEN we could CONSIDER Zapdos coming back.
Kammi , if I understood correctly, you're saying Argus wins matches without Mega Sableye because he's good but 'everyone else' are not because they lack a mega sableye?
Isn't that what KyuW and Skymin were banned? Because one single Pokemon boosts the type's viability and promotes the type as a whole and reverses the outcome of a lost match?
I mentioned snarl because it's a better strat, dark pulse is more powerful but snarl is generally more effective.
Plus. Yes, I am saying if one single person did it, it's possible to everyone else.
If it's POSSIBLE then yes every one else can do it after LEARNING the type instead of clicking 4 moves and sweeping, I agree not against EVERY type, but almost a half of all types. (Poison/electric/ice/fighting/ghost(luck war basically, which one crits first),psychic (unless there is a banded victini involved, or a mega gardevoir.),ground(is somewhat problematic with most of the squad being physical and you can just click WoW and cripple everything, which as you mentioned, ghost has plenty of)... the types I didnt mention are pretty neutral either for being actual checks for mega sab or being an anti typing( fire & fairy ) the rest of the types either have 1/2 almost fully reliable checks to it or more.
If Ghost was bad he wouldn't go anywhere near that ranking and especially not a record breaking GXE with Ghost.
My main point is, Ghost is obviously playable, and if youre going for the arguement it needs mega sableye to stay good, then its basically KyuW and Skymin all over again.
I do want to point out individually, it is not as bad as those two.
But its one of those pokemon that a setup is usually inevitable, with cm/recover/wow with its Prankster, then wall and KO almost everything with whatever STAB you decide to run.
And so is dark, what happened to it getting a quickban on Dark?
Now I know I mentioned a ton of almost and usually and stuff, but its because it may or may not get haxed, may or may not expect this or that switch in or out, I do not know what's going in people's minds or what kind of game sense they have, we all have a different one, experinced players, average players, veterans, newbies, bla bla and bla.
But when I see a pokemon that causes this much problem to types that are already hard to use and some average ones, it should certainly be looked at.
A "special" player or not, he literally proved ghost is PLAYABLE & VIABLE on the upper ladder, and it doesnt require mega sableye to work out well.
If you want to play ghost, learn the type, thats what we all do, with every type, dont just click tacticlessly click 4 moves and sweep.
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I see what you're saying and I think it's possible we've both misconstrued each other's points. This: "If it's POSSIBLE then yes every one else can do it after LEARNING the type instead of clicking 4 moves and sweeping, I agree not against EVERY type, but almost a half of all types. (Poison/electric/ice/fighting/ghost(luck war basically, which one crits first),psychic (unless there is a banded victini involved, or a mega gardevoir.),ground(is somewhat problematic with most of the squad being physical and you can just click WoW and cripple everything, which as you mentioned, ghost has plenty of)" is simply not true, though. Ghost is good with or without Mega Sableye, but Mega Sableye isn't broken enough to deserve the nerf. You don't "click four moves and sweep" with Mega Sableye. It's not a pokemon that comes in on anything and sets up easily, unless you let it. Also, nearly all the types you mentioned have answers to Mega Sableye that are COMMON on their types:Corrected 'Against fire' to 'Besides fire' on my post, 'twas a mistake :/
I was saying, if ChariXard were to be banned, THEN we could CONSIDER Zapdos coming back.
Kammi , if I understood correctly, you're saying Argus wins matches without Mega Sableye because he's good but 'everyone else' are not because they lack a mega sableye?
Isn't that what KyuW and Skymin were banned? Because one single Pokemon boosts the type as a whole and reverses the outcome of a lost match?
I mentioned snarl because it's a better strat, dark pulse is more powerful but snarl is generally more effective.
Plus. Yes, I am saying if one single person did it, it's possible to everyone else.
If it's POSSIBLE then yes every one else can do it after LEARNING the type instead of clicking 4 moves and sweeping, I agree not against EVERY type, but almost a half of all types. (Poison/electric/ice/fighting/ghost(luck war basically, which one crits first),psychic (unless there is a banded victini involved, or a mega gardevoir.),ground(is somewhat problematic with most of the squad being physical and you can just click WoW and cripple everything, which as you mentioned, ghost has plenty of)... the types I didnt mention are pretty neutral either for being actual checks for mega sab or being an anti typing( fire & fairy ) the rest of the types either have 1/2 almost fully reliable checks to it or more.
If Ghost was bad he wouldn't go anywhere near that ranking and especially not a record breaking GXE with Ghost.what a fucking god lmao. (Thanks to Kammi for the screenie)
My main point is, Ghost is obviously playable, and if youre going for the arguement it needs mega sableye to stay good, then its basically KyuW and Skymin all over again.
I do want to point out individually, it is not as bad as those two.
But its one of those pokemon that a setup is usually inevitable, with cm/recover/wow with its Prankster, then wall and KO almost everything with whatever STAB you decide to run.
And so is dark, what happened to it getting a quickban on Dark?
Now I know I mentioned a ton of almost and usually and stuff, but its because it may or may not get haxed, may or may not expect this or that switch in or out, I do not know what's going in people's minds or what kind of game sense they have, we all have a different one, experinced players, average players, veterans, newbies, bla bla and bla.
But when I see a pokemon that causes this much problem to types that are already hard to use and some average ones, it should certainly be looked at.
A "special" player or not, he literally proved ghost is PLAYABLE & VIABLE on the upper ladder, and it doesnt require mega sableye to work out well.
If you want to play ghost, learn the type, thats what we all do, with every type, dont just click tacticlessly click 4 moves and sweep.
Poison has Tentacruel, like I mentioned before, which is run very often on the type and gives the rest of Ghost trouble too (Poison also has toxic spikes, which mess up Mega Sableye if they're given a chance to set up even one layer). I will admit, Poison does struggle with it.
Electric has Magnezone, Mega Ampharos, and Calm Mind Raikou (the last of which isn't too common but is one of the best answers to Mega Sableye out there, imo). The key to this is to not let it set up-- even then, Electric's hard-hitting sp.atk'ers give it issues, along with paralysis etc. It does give the type a lot of trouble, though (another interesting strat: Pressure Zapdos wears out Sableye's Recovers pretty quickly).
Ice has extreme issues with Mega Sableye, but a banded Mamoswine does a number on it if it's already mega'ed (no priority Will o Wisp), Mega Abomasnow can force it out pretty easily if it hasn't set up yet, and Kyu-B is scary as well. Ice probably has the most issues with it out of any type I've seen, but it is definitely beatable.
Fighting has Infernape and Guts users and that's about it. Regular Sableye wrecks this type anyways so I don't really see how Mega Sableye affects this matchup that much. I could sweep or extremely cripple a Fighting team without mega-evolving.
Ghost vs Ghost is cancerous and a crit war, but you could run Curse Dusclops or Curse Golurk or dbond or something. I dunno, get creative. I don't see this being a logical argument though, since both types have the pokemon...
Psychic has some of the easiest answers (see: Mega Gardevoir, Victini) and these are run very commonly. You don't even need banded Victini, because it can't burn you. 252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 153-180 (50.3 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO ; even with max def Sableye it does too much to recover off. It could also be the special variant, in which case you're completely dead. Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice = gg.
Ground is Ghost's worst matchup. Sableye can only come in a certain number of times, plus sandstorm and hazard damage, extreme wallbreaking power, and often being forced to mega-evolve early on in the game. The whole game is literally situation after situation of "no-switchins.jpg" for Ghost. Usually, Sab has to mega before the three common phys attackers are all burned (Excadrill, Mamoswine, Garchomp), and you have to take out Lando-i before you do ANYTHING with Sab. I don't really see how Sableye being mega impacts this matchup either.
Also, I don't understand what you were trying to say here: "if I understood correctly, you're saying Argus wins matches without Mega Sableye because he's good but 'everyone else' are not because they lack a mega sableye?" but I could probably win matches without Mega Sableye if I tried, as could any seasoned Ghost user. I don't really see why Mega Sableye needs to be removed, though. Your argument is that since Argus CAN do it, everyone should be FORCED to do it...which doesn't make sense. Ghost is good without Mega Sableye, ok, but it's made more viable by the presence of the option for Sableye to become Mega, while the pokemon itself still isn't too singlehandedly overpowered to easily sweep well-built teams. If Mega Sableye is being discussed for a ban because Ghost is worse, but still ok, without it and it's too much for some types to handle (which it isn't), then may I ask, why the hell is Genesect still here.
Yeah just to expand more on Sableye vs Ground, it has to choose whether it wants to Mega Evolve early to cockblock Hippo and prevent it getting rocks up for the rest of the game, which is actually pretty crucial when you consider 8 turns of sand plus Ghost has no Defogger so a switch is most likely costing you 18% of your health on any given mon. But then there's a flipside that if you mevo early you lose Prankster Wisp and a lot of utility, Exca Iron Heads, Mamo Icicle Crashes etc. become very annoying cos one flinch ends you. I actually don't think CM is it's best set, I prefer the utility set but w/e, Sabe in theory should be good vs Ground, but in reality it struggles.
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