Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]

[KannaVZ]

Hi everyone! I just want to say that if you really think about it both megas can be really hard to take down lemme just write some pros and cons...

M-Altaria-Pros:
-Takes less damage from stealth rocks
-Bulky sets are usually preferable, because of it resistant fairy typing
-Easy set up oportunities on a lot of types, and can do cleric job to help its own sweep (heal bell/refresh/natural cure before evolving and roost)
-Easily destroys 3+ types after 1 or 2 dd's (I.E: Dark (only check I can see is sashed iron head 252+ Attack bisharp and IDK if that KO's), Fighting (you can try to poison jab but skarm is there), dragon (counterable with maybe 2 scarfers one of them being Kyu-B???)
-Resists bolt and helps its teammates with that (but you have volt absorb djinn for that)
-Can run different sets (DD cleric, DD eq, DD frustration, DD and fire blast,DD facade. You mix and match between them)
-As it is a speed reliant set up sweeper after a couple boost is really hard to outspeed
-It has the offensive balance of flying (djinns, skarf kiss and rocks/spikes cortesy of skarm)
-It has the defensive balance of flying (skarm, mandy, heal bell kiss, xatu)
-Extremely good ability

Cons:
-It's typing although great makes it weak to common coverage moves (sludge bomb, ice beam, iron head)
-has the same counters as a lot of other threats (M-garde, M-diancie, serperior, and kiss)
-it's low (OML how is this low!!!!) speed tier of 80 (lol that's not slow XD) makes it an ez target for faster and hard hitting moves, and also base 100+ speed with a scarf can kill it after a boost (let's not go there shall we?)
-It shares a weakness with flying (Ice)
-It can choose what it destroys and what destroys it (is that even a con???)

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M-ZardX Pros:
-Has a gazillion sets (bulky dd, bellydrum flamecharge, it also has roost, eq, flare blitz, outrage (you want it, then prolly charX has it)
-it has the best synergy with flying (being weak to only rock)
-Has an amazing speed tier of 100 (soo you need faster threats or a 100 speed mon with a scarf to speed tie it and hope for luck)
-It's weaknesses are heavily covered with it teammates (skarm for rock, the other 5 mons for ground, togekiss for dragon, that's it)
-Easily destroys 3+ types after 1 or DDs: (steel: unless air balloon heatran comes in, if no balloon then LOLZ, grass: cuz cradilly won't live that long, fire: again heatran and phis defensive rotom-H with thunderwave???, electric: after prankster Thundy is gone, so are you, psychic: if your slowbro gets there too late and can't t-wave or your mew is in low enough health then what are you going to do???)
-It has the offensive help of its teammates (djinns, kiss, and all those sweets hazards by skarm)
-It has the deffensive help of its teamates (healbell altaria/kiss, skarm, mandy and xatu)
-Unlike altaria it doesn't need DD to sweep (although the option is nice)
-Inmune to will-o-wisp
-Extremely good ability

Cons:
-STEALTH ROCKS (and that almost mandatory roost after it comes in)
-It can choose what it destroys and what destroys it (is that even a con???)
-It is a very common mega so ppl have some strats to defeat it (is that a con??)
-It can't cleric for itself (although toxic is not worth it, unless you run alomomola and slowbro with regen and protect #Iseeyoupika)
-Air ballon heatran

---------::::::---------
Sooo that's it, if you have anything else to add just post it, btw this isn't definitive, I don't own the absolute truth, if you think I'm wrong then yeah, I might be XD

TL;DR both are extremelly good, Zard X gets a special mention here cuz it has less cons (and IMHO is more OP) altaria is amazing but underated, if both were as common then altaria wouldn't be as unpredictable...

P.S: I'm pro testing/banning the steel bug (ladysect), it's not OP but bug is already really good and instant download boost is a little bit too much. ban smooth rock or sand + sand rush/sand force (if you think that's too much, then ban smooth rock) that's all

 

[scpinion]

The June usage stats are up on the Monotype Website.
The Bug users have risen to the top, pushed Psychic down, and brought Fire up quite a bit!
What do you guys think about the latest release?

Pokemon usage stats and sprite gallery: http://monotypeps.weebly.com/sprite-gallery.html
Type Matchup Table and Imbalanced Matchups: http://monotypeps.weebly.com/matchup-tables.html
Metagame Trends/Type Analyses/Lead Information: http://monotypeps.weebly.com/type-analyses.html

As always, make sure to let me know if you need any help understanding something, or if you find any bugs (not the kind you'll find in ~10% of battles)!

 

[vanderlylic]

Interesting month, especially with the change in usage of some of the top types. I'll just do my Grass report and let the more experienced players comment on the other types.

Grass Monotype in June

The actual usage of Grass didn't change much, 3.76% to 3.24% and it can definitely still be classified as a bottom tier type. It is sitting in a nice little group of ~3% types (Fairy, Ice, Electric), with only Rock sitting far below at 2.08%. As far as matchups go, Grass got a little bit better and a little bit worse. It currently has the second most unbalanced matchup against Fire, losing 82.3% of battles. Matchup vs Bug and Psychic isn't much better, with Grass losing 77.6% and 72.9% of battles, respectively. I'm not really sure what could be done to curb these horrible matchups, a ban of Genesect would go a long way to help, but Char-X also under discussion isn't used too much on Fire (18.5%) and Psychic doesn't really have any broken mons at the moment. Grass users probably just need to "git gud". On the positive side, it did gain a good matchup against Fairy.

Now for the actual Pokemon usage. Can someone explain Shaymin to me: how it has managed to get so high and who is using it?

| Rank | Pokemon | Usage % | Raw | % | Real | % |
| 11 | Shaymin | 14.71720% | 1020 | 6.685% | 735 | 6.582% |

In May, it only had a usage of 4.40% and in April 4.26%. It seems like it is just one high ranked user skewing the stats to me; only one real set is being used: Seed Flare / Earth Power / Air Slash / HP Ice with Assault Vest and a Timid spread. Is this actually a good set?

Other things worth commenting on are that Shiftry has dropped to 4.84%, after being above 10% usage (peaking around 18% in March) for the entire year. Are Grass users just finding it not as useful anymore? Sceptile also has its lowest usage since the start of the year (16.18%, down from 28% in January), and only ~12% of users have it as their Mega on their team. The opportunity cost of not being able to use Venusaurite is likely too high, and non-Mega Sceptile just isn't that good comparatively. Trevenant also fell back down to sensible usage levels to 20% after a spike at 35% last month.

Apart from that, it is business as usually for the top 6 Grass Pokemon, which haven't changed since Shaymin-Sky was banned way back in February. The difference between 6th and 7th is currently 8.52%. I looks like generic balanced grass is here to stay.

 

[RZL]

What the above post did was really cool.

I think I'll do the same for Water.

It terms of types it has gained popularity once more, sitting now at 7.74% usage, rather than an atrocious 6.66% usage.

Against other types, it has only a few good match ups, and is currently has one appalling match up in grass. Rather usually.

In terms of Pokemon, top 6 remain unchanged. Empoleon is currently sitting at 7th, Starmie drops, Cloyster all drop. I am glad Empoleon gets its much needed raise, and I have a feeling I affected the Starmie raise in May. Just guess. Other than that Water is relatively unchanged and everything looks at where is should be. Ludicolo though.

 

[Omega-Xis]

Hello all, I know it’s been some time since I posted, but I promise I read everything here (mostly) so don’t think I’m ignoring this. There’s a few things I’d like to talk about that are in the current metagame that I would deem unhealthy.

1st – Smooth Rock

I’m not going to comment too much on this, as I feel like it’s already been beat into the ground. I think the general consensus that most people have is that getting the amount of sand turns down from 8 to 5 still keeps Ground strong but knocks it down a notch without making any major changes. If the strength of Ground still persists after a Smooth Rock ban, looking into to other changes could be made later, but it wouldn’t be too big of a change where a lot of backtracking would need to be done were this unsuccessful.

2nd – Mega Altaria

Altaria is more broken than Zard imo. Alt can literally differentiate it's moveset to take on whatever type it feels like, even those with advantages vs it. It doesn't have one sole counter, and even checking it can be extremely difficult thanks to it's great bulk, resistances to most priority, ability to become damn near impossible to kill on the physical side with Cotton Guard and stuff like Sub, Special Agility, Refresh / Heal Bell can fuck up would-be good answers to it. I just feel like every time I play against an Altaria, I'm saccing one mon to attempt to discern the set, and even when I know the set it's a massive issue to deal with cos I likely only have a shaky check remaining. This is excluding all the types that it straight up fucks over and that can only hope to check it by saccing a mon and getting their answer in every time, such as Fighting or Dark. That's not too huge an issue though because this is mono and certain types will always struggle to deal with certain threats, for me it's more it's ability to cater itself to beating particular teams.

So, it might seem lame to start off with quoting someone else, I don’t think I really could have put it any better than DM did. The one thing I can do, however, is relate this to other bans.

I think the primary example I can relate this to is Greninja. Greninja was banned because of a combination of ability that gave it STAB on any of its attacks and a wide movepool that could allow you to cater it to beating some monos that rest of your team could not defeat. No, Mega Altaria does not have Protean. It does, however, boast this same ability as Greninja to be catered to beating specific monos, and it doesn’t have to work nearly as hard. Unlike Greninja, I feel like you could aptly describe Mega Altaria as an entire team in one mon. It has access to cleric moves, set up moves, reliable HP recovery in the form of roost and fantastic base stats, particulary in the bulk department. I cannot think of another mon that boasts this, but perhaps I’m overlooking something.

I’ll just list some matchups whether Alt be on Dragon or Flying, although I’ll reference which matchup I’m talking about:

Vs. Electric – I think this a bit more apt discussing Mega Alt on a flying mono, but all a flying mono really has to do if it’s not running Zard X is run this thing with a bulky DD set with Roost and Refresh/Heal Bell (If you’re specifically countering elec, you might go refresh for having more PP) and you’re probably never taking more than 40ish percent from a HP Ice unless your opponent manages to sneak a NP in on you with a Thundurus genie, but hopefully you didn’t let that happen. At this point, it doesn’t matter if bulky Rotom-W with Will-o, it doesn’t matter if prankster TWave unless you get unlucky and get para’d twice in a row, it doesn’t matter if toxic zapdos because you just roost away any damage, heal any status, kill the statuser, then heal the status off against a more offensive Pokémon that will not stall you out and you’ve won the match.

252 SpA Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 124-146 (40.3 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

And this is with hardly any HP investment, in mono you can feasibly run more (I have myself) since you’re catering it more specifically than I believe you’d have to in OU. Also, elec really does appreciate the presence of Physical Thundurus, as it’s one of the premier physical attackers available to the type, so although this is one of the stronger HP Ices, it might feasibly not be present on an Elec mono. According to the June usage stats, HP Ice was run on 43.4% of Thundurus-I on Elec monos.

Vs. Fighting – This is more relevant for Dragon monos. I felt that in past metagames (BW and XY), the matchup was more even, although it’s not skewed even now. According to June stats, Dragon is beating Fighting 57.2% of the time, and I don’t think it’s a stretch to say this is in large part thanks to Mega Altaria.

If you’re wanting to tailor MAlt to beat fighting monos for your Dragon team, quite a few sets are viable. A DD set would obviously working wonders, obviously only really needing rocks support from a chomp lead to break loom’s sash at some point in the battle so that MAlt is not put to sleep, or you could just set the rocks and let chomp sleep, break sash in some other way and bulk out a hit as long as you haven’t completely choked and let the Loom set up get ridiculous, which shouldn’t be that hard to prevent.

I think a much scarier thing for fighting would be, on the contrary, a sub cotton guard set with hyper voice. It doesn’t take basically any Sp. Atk investment to make Hyper Voice dent virtually anything on fighting monos, sub shields from Spore on Loom and with a CG set, you could perhaps consider running enough speed to get the Sub in front of loom, at which point you get a CG the next turn and I fail to see what the fighting mono does to come back since everything is getting dented by Hyper Voice, if not KO’d.

Vs. Dark – Long of the short, a refresh/heal bell set up on either mono is a real bitch in this matchup since once they just outlast Sableye, it’s over.

Vs. Water – On either Flying or Dragon, as DM has already stated, it will find multiple opportunities to set up. Through either sacks or predicting doubles, the Flying or Dragon player can find multiple opportunities to bring this in, use Cotton Guard or Dragon Dance, whoever it’s running, and at that point it either sweeps or walls Water to death. If you’re saying the CG set couldn’t, it can just run EQ and severely damage things like Empoleon which is likely to be specially defensive to combat Zard Y, which is probably one of the more solid matchups Water wold have against MAlt on paper.

Once you’ve dealth with a possible Water/Ground type and Lanturn as a flying player, there’s really nothing stopping thundurus-T, and as a dragon player all you need to do is take out an existing Water/Ground type for Kyu-B to wreck, and well all well know Swamp or Gastro are not doing anything significant to MAlt.

Oh here’s the take on another matchup from my good friend Freeroamer:

Altaria can bop Steel with the appropriate set, I've ran Return / Fire Blast / EQ / Roost on Flying as of late and it absolutely destroys Steel. This is what I meant by Alt can cater itself to beat specific teams, with the exception of Ice. (and kinda Poison) Hyper Voice and more special investment is viable for anyone who wants to try it, and might even be the better set.

So we’re already up to 5 types. If I recall, TFlame was banned for beating 3. So this is already 5 monos that we can cater Mega Altaria to. It also has the versatility that Greninja had, albeit in a slightly different manner, and has much more bulk than either TFlame or Greninja had.

Also, if you call any of my example sets unorthodox, that’s kind of the point when you talk about a mon “catering itself.” If the rest of the team can beat everything else, you run something on the mon that’s a bit niche to beat what the rest of your team cannot.

3rd – Genesect

While I have seen talk and hate of this Uber die down as compared to when it was initially unbanned, I do not believe that this really matters. The fact is is that Genesect is still very powerful in this metagame, for what it can instantly do and what it can do throughout a match.

Short explanation:

Oh I can’t kill this? Let me u-turn out and soften this up for later when I get a chance to come back out and sweep.

Long explanation:

While Genesect is powerful in and of itself, it receives fantastic support from the rest of its Bug mono frens. You have Volcarona who can clear steel with Quiver Dance/Roost/Hidden Power Ground/Fiery Dance as long as a Heatran that is perhaps running Balloon probably has its Balloon popped (likely by a U-turning Genesect LOL), Shuckle which provides Webs and rocks to not only slow down your opponent but also break any sashes/sturdy, Scizor which provides defog and access to Swords Dance and Bullet Punch to take out fairies and also likely bulk them out, Heracross who with a scarf (sounds a bit excessive with webs but is nice for killing terrak after scarf nullified by webs and zard y) and Mega Pinsir who with SD/Quick Attack or Feint/EQ/Frustration to just clean mons that otherwise threaten a lot of flying mons other than the Thundurus Genies or Skarm/somewhat mandi (which Volc can deal with well enough anyways).

Sure, this whole last paragraph makes it sound like it’s just the type supporting Genesect rather than Genesect being OP. However, when something on a team is supported in one way, the recipient of this support often supports in reverse.

There’s some types, primarily Flying, Water, and Ground, where Genesect puts in QUITE a lot of work for its partners. 3 of the top 4 moves on Genesect are U-Turn, Ice Beam, and Thunderbolt. This should be pretty apparent: You U-turn out against what you cannot kill and once the opposing team is sufficiently weakened, you turn to the combination of BoltBeam which hits quite a few mons supereffectively, particularly against Flying of the types I listed.

Vs. Water - Energy Ball might not be a top 4 usage move on Genesect, but it is run on about 1 of every 4 according to June stats.

252 SpA Genesect Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 224-264 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I made this calc because the key to beating Genesect carrying TBolt and Energy Ball on Water would be smart playing with Lanturn and Azumarill. Once Lanturn is gone, there’s almost no reprieve for the Water team, as Azu can’t do enough between Waterfall/Knock Off + Aqua Jet if it’s Sap Sipper, and it’s arguably worse if it’s knock off, since it has to set up the BD and after that, it’s enough to just switch something in like Shuckle which has already done it’s job (If you played well enough with it to start the game), sack that, and then Bullet Punch off the Azu. Maybe then the Water user brings in Gyara, but you could U-Turn out your Scizor if it’s a bulky pivot or simply switch if the user grabs a DD and kill with Stone Edge.

In chat awhile ago, Neski, who I consider one of the better battlers, even said that when she plays water if the answers defensively are gone (which they’re not hard for the bug user to take out) you’re basically left sitting there with Gene running through your team.

Vs. Ground – I guess this is more of a personal example, but I find that Bug can have a particularly hard time against Ground, so when I used Genesect on my Bug team, I chose to run Ice Beam + Energy Ball with U-turn in the gtfo instances and Iron Head for Fairy/Rock Monos. I’m sure it sounds like a strange set, but I built it specifically for Ground, and I’m sure anyone who saw me battle like Hingo and Septicus can attest that it was pretty effective, as ground users would often withdraw the Hippo lead to start walling out Ice Beams only to lose their one good answer to Ice Beam to Energy Ball, at which point I was netted with a lot of momentum and never really looked back. And don’t worry, this wasn’t lower ladder, I was on an alt in the top 100 and did a good number of battles in that range.

In essence, a lot of what these 3 matchups show is that Genesect is able to be catered to help you handle a specific mono, and all the types I went in-depth about are all very strong types. Just for kicks, the 3rd most common move on Sect is steel, so if you want even more help against Steel, well there you are.

A lot of times in the past I’ve heard “Omg bug needs Genesect for a strong Ice beam etc. etc.” but that is not a viable reason to keep Genesect around. Many people forget that Bug was still a strong type before it was allowed. Yes, it was not as strong but that’s not a reason to keep something. Genesect can be tailored to quite a few specific types and being able to wear other teams down and counter threats to the rest of the team allow it to support bug in a way I believe to be unhealthy for the metagame.

A last, but likely the most important point that my good friend Sabella drove when we were talking about our views on some of these issues, is this:


[19:54:51] sabella: wht makes genesect
[19:54:57] sabella: so fuckin ridiculous is that
[19:55:03] sabella: u cant predict it

And he’s exactly right. I know I’ve been talking about mostly special moves with U-turn, but Banded and even Specs sets are entirely viable. Things like Banded Iron Head really ruin the day for types like Rock and Fairy, and Specs Ice Beam/TBolt makes it worse for types, mainly Flying. In other words, once you’ve found out what Gene is running, it might be too late.

If you’re worried about not having viable replacements, Galv is a viable mon in the metagame, and while I realize that yes, it’s not nearly as strong, it does well in the matchups I’ve listed above having access to Elec STAB, being able to utilize HP Ice and Giga Drain/Energy Ball. Bug would still continue to be a strong type without being the “Slap Webs + Rocks + M Pinsir + Genesect on the team and cheese it to 1500s/1600s” type that it is atm.

 

[Sabella]

Ultimate bluff mon

 

[Freeroamer]

Tfw you want to like half a post heh, I think our contrasting views on Genesect come more from differences in opinion on what classifies a mon as broken rather than our assessment of the mon. I just think Gene has too many flaws to truly be broken per se, but there is no denying that it's probably one of the most unpredictable mons in the metagame. I just think it's reliance on a Choice Scarf to outspeed offensive threats makes it that little bit easier to deal with, because it's very difficult to run it without one because you suddenly find a lot more stuff as annoying to you than with one, such as the ridiculous amount of mons that sit between 100-110 base Speed.

Agree with the majority of your sentiments about Altaria, although I'd be careful in comparing it to Talonflame as while Altaria has the potential to fuck up a huge amount of Monotype teams, it can't fit everything it'd like on one set whereas Talon fucked all those teams up by virtue of having strong Flying priority on every set. Not that I think this makes Alt any less broken mind, as its a very small flaw on an otherwise incredible mon.

 

[scpinion]

I agree w/ the first two, but not with Genesect.

I don't have time to make a big post on it rn, but I'll hit the high points.

U-turning around isn't nearly as viable in Monotype b/c 90% of the things that would scare Genesect out are going to bop w/e you U-Turn into too. You also have an entire team of things that are weak to entry hazards, and Armaldo/Forretress as your best spinners.

It stacks a 4x Fire weakness on a type that already struggles with Fire moves. This kinda hits on the first point, where clicking a Rock/Flying/Fire move on Genesect is likely going to work out in your favor if Genesect can't outright OHKO you.

The diversity in its sets is a better argument and I'm fine if that is why we ban it, but U-turn is only beating types that are weak to Bug moves. No offense, but Sabella's comments are coming from maining a type that is weak to U-turn.

Edit: Striking through the last comment. I was typing really fast and that didn't make the point I was trying to make at all. Sorry Sabella.

 

[Sabella]

scpinion its not coming from that. I dont make comments about a pokemon in a discussion ban basing it off just one type that i use. That would be unhealthy for the game. Its the fact that with its insane coverage and absolute unpredictability is what makes it such a threat. It really doesnt matter what i use, the fact that you have the ability to bluff bolt beam and flamethrower and could be banded the whole time is pretty insane, and its unpredictability is the same exact reason why it was banned in ou in the first place.

 

[Freeroamer]

While I don't want to speak for other people, I think you are being a tad harsh in saying that his comments are only borne out of using Psychic. Firstly he's given me many a team for other types such as his successful take on Stall Water, as well as the stuff we played around with for testing in MPL. Secondly his argument is that it's an incredibly unpredictable mon, which seems very contradictory with this idea of spamming U-Turn. To me that sentence was a little uncalled for.

Ah ninja'd

 

[Sabella]

and tbh scp i barely lose to bug when i use psychic anyway id rather see a genesect then a yanmega to be totally frank with you

 

[RZL]

DM, there is a rather simple solution to that problem. Sticky Web + Specs or Band Genesect is also an issue. It really does not have to run Choice Scarf, although most do obviously and is the most prevalent set. If you plan to take a Scarf T-Bolt, and instead you are taking a Specs T-Bolt you lose a Pokemon. Genesect is very versatile in both its moveset, and its item.

Although, Genesect should not be banned, due to the reason that Scpinion mentioned especially so with Bug. Furthermore, Omega did slightly aggrandizes Genesect's versatility.

Edit: I am going to now elaborate on "the reasons Scpinion mentioned", I am talking about, the 4X Fire weakness, and Genesects fragility, not the spamming of U-turn.

Sabella mains Water by the way. Last time I checked, he uses multiple types often.

 

[Freeroamer]

Scarf is the most prevalent set precisely because most Bug teams use Sticky Web. Genesects access to BoltBeam coverage allow it to hit almost everything that doesn't get slowed by webs, primarily fast Flying types such as Tornadus-T which would otherwise be a huge pain to deal with. I agree that other sets are useful, but it's very important to understand that ironically, it's because of Sticky Web that Genesect's best set is a Scarf set.

 

[Sabella]

and scpinion you u turn arguement maybe true with fire for example but even for example in a situation where a char y is at 60%ish and u bring genesect in and zard has blown something back you can scare zard out with scarf t bolt and force a fire user into heatran or rotom-h giving you a pivot into heracross. Im not quite understanding what your trying to say ill look for your post later when you expand

 

[RZL]

Genesect's Pluses:
++Great Offensive Stats
+Download
+++Insane coverage
+Great against a common weakness: Flying

Genesect's Demerits
-4X Fire Weakness
-Speed Tier
-Heavily reliant on one Item, even though other items are viable.
--Fragility

 

[Kammi]

I am not going to say much because everyone before me has done a pretty good job of summing up both sides, and also I am on mobile, so just a couple things I would like to say.

Despite the 4x weakness to Fire that Genesect has, it actually boasts FANTASTIC typing and I would not call it "fragile" by any means. It is resistant to 8 types, immune to 1, and takes neutral damage from all other types besides Fire. It is extremely hard to OHKO this thing with anything besides a Fire move. This, plus reduced damage from the ever so crippling SR, allows Genesect to switch out until Fire-type threats (or threats with fire type moves) are worn down enough to kill or are already dead. From there, it can sweep or extremely pressure the rest of the team. 71/95/95 defenses are not bad at all, and certainly good enough for Genesect to do its job.

Its speed tier leaves something to be desired but is in no way slow, and with Sticky Web support and/or a choice scarf, it is easily overcome. Choice scarf is being listed as one of Genesects weaknesses right now, but really, with the download boost on the switchin, you have half a chance of essentially having both a scarf AND specs/band (depending on your set), something that is ridiculous to even consider, coupled with the already-stellar 120 Atk/sp.Atk stats that it has, and the wide arsenal of moves that Genesect could carry. This thing tears. through. teams.

Right now the only logical argument I see that is against banning Genesect is that Bug doesn't have switchins for threats to Genesect (i.e. Fire type threats or threats with Fire type moves cannot easily be neutralized or killed, so they can either dent the team or get rid of Genesect) but isn't the existence of Genesect in the meta just promoting type-based matchups, then? I don't fully understand this, so if someone could post further detailing this point it would be appreciated.

 

[n64lord]

I always found genesect to be more of an interesting teambuilding problem than an outright broken mon. Its good but the types it's supposed to best against like ice, dragon, and psychic, have generic sets that beat it "enough" to earn their keep, while they can tinker for things like mix scarf victini, or specdef normalgyarados to really throw genesect and over half its partners for a loop.

I find it funny that fighting teams were still cabable of laddering to no1 after megaaltaria's release, but it is kind of above and beyond sweepers like charizard and dragonite, since it's typing is even better for giving it things to heal up on and it doesn't have a problem with status inducers. It's pretty hard going against it with electric/fighting/dark/dragon, but it's just as dangerous against types it can't 6-0, since dragon has more than enough offensive pressure, including double dance:< to have already weakened their main physical checks.

That said these are both types that make me rub my hands together with glee when I see them in teampreview, so take what matches you can win I guess.

 

[Entei]

Tfw you want to like half a post heh, I think our contrasting views on Genesect come more from differences in opinion on what classifies a mon as broken rather than our assessment of the mon. I just think Gene has too many flaws to truly be broken per se, but there is no denying that it's probably one of the most unpredictable mons in the metagame. I just think it's reliance on a Choice Scarf to outspeed offensive threats makes it that little bit easier to deal with, because it's very difficult to run it without one because you suddenly find a lot more stuff as annoying to you than with one, such as the ridiculous amount of mons that sit between 100-110 base Speed.

Agree with the majority of your sentiments about Altaria, although I'd be careful in comparing it to Talonflame as while Altaria has the potential to fuck up a huge amount of Monotype teams, it can't fit everything it'd like on one set whereas Talon fucked all those teams up by virtue of having strong Flying priority on every set. Not that I think this makes Alt any less broken mind, as its a very small flaw on an otherwise incredible mon.

It Destroys Fighting Dark Electric and Dragon with either its dance set or its special set, or either dragon or flying, I'm counting 4 here.
It also gives Fire & Water a very tough time because it can set up on many many things, easily, and doesn't have many checks or counters.
-----
And as for Genesect, ya'll are forgetting about how amazing LO Sect with webs is.

You are literally given a download boost & LO boost & a choice between moves and without being locked into one.

Greninja was banned for its unpredictability (Genesect could be easily compared here) , it's great coverage pool (same goes for here) it's huge speed that allows it to run an offensive boosting item(99 speed is far from being low outspeeding a major amount of pokemon + bug's access to sticky web letting Genesect also run an attack boosting item , it's ability: protean ( Download does the exact same thing if sent at the right time? Only better if a STAB Steel/Bug is being used) and what it being an uber? Genesect is an uber! And well Water as a whole, it's still amazing, without Greninja, i agree it does struggle a whole lot against Mega Venu, but that's about it.
If Genesec gets banned, bug will be struggling against Flying(TornT/Zard Y/X etc) and Ground(op 8 turn drilling mole and Garchomp's EdgeQuake+ Special fire move coverage), and either a standard or a therian Landorus will now form a greater threat and will force certain things to run HP ice.

I can't say I'm pro banning it because I honestly don't know how much will it actually affect bug, I'm not against it either, I'm just expanding about what I think of it.

tagging zulkaz and Inwhale for their thoughts

 

[scpinion]

Whoa, I was typing fast before I had to leave last night and that sentence came off waaay worse than what I meant Sabella. Sorry about that. I wasn't trying to knock you, the types you use or claim you were biased.

I'm about to get some coffee. I'll read the rest of the thread and edit my thoughts on Genesect into this post.

Edits:

Also, If I didn't respect Sabella's opinions on this type of stuff I wouldn't have asked him to do QC for the strategyDex on the website. Anyways, on to Genesect.

You guys have laid out all its qualities quite nicely, so I'll skip that step. I'm in the same boat as Freeroamer, where I agree with the assessment, but not with the fact those qualities make it broken.

Here's a fun exercise to show it.

I've posted 3 calc's below, one of those is scarf Genesect (the most common, and arguably the best, set in Monotype) without a Download boost in the correct stat. You can give it a boost, the argument still holds most of the time.

The other ones are two LO attackers (an effective set for both these Pokemon, but not their most common) that have special movepools almost identical to Genesect, access to U-turn, the ability to run mixed/physical sets without trouble and better speed tiers. They can run boosting sets, just like Genesect. They also have much better team support behind them to U-Turn/switch into.

Without calc'ing to figure them out, you tell me the one that is broken...

252 SpA PokemonA Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 224-264 (56.8 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA PokemonB Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 299-354 (75.8 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA PokemonC Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 265-315 (67.2 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You say this isn't fair! I didn't give Genesect a Download boost.
I'll concede the Download boost definitely matters, but Download is not what you guys say makes Genesect broken. It often has the wrong boost anyways.

Genesect is PokemonA; with a Download boost it has a 6.3% chance to KO that Slowbro. (please don't harp on Slowbro, it is just there to compare damage output)

What about the fact I gave Genesect a Scarf and gave PokemonB and PokemonC a LO?
LO Genesect isn't as scary (as DM has nicely pointed out above). It can be Rk'd w/o trouble by almost any scarf user (many w/ Sticky Webs on the field) as well as 90% of offensive Levitators, Balloon users and Flying mons. Bug doesn't have a strong defensive core to fall back on to take these hits that would KO Genesect. So, the Bug user trades KO's in order to preserve Genesect and plays with a more offensive team build.

Those other two Pokemon have base 115 and base 105 speed tiers, which means they aren't getting outsped by all those base 100's...or 110's for PokemonB. On Flying, Thundurus is eating a hit to paralyze PokemonB b/c it can't outspeed (just like scarf Genesect). Here's the best part, those 'mons have a Psychic team to fall back into when they're threatened.

So, if you claim Genesect is broken in the Monotype metagame because it has excellent mixed attacking stats, is unpredictable, can run multiple viable sets and has access to u-turn to maintain momentum, then I encourage to propose a ban for Azelf (PokemonB) and Mesprit (PokemonC) too.

LO Azelf has similar damage output to Download-boosted Scarf Genesect, a speed tier that outpaces most of the unboosted meta, can change moves, and has an excellent supporting cast. That supporting cast does all the things Genesect wishes Bug teams could do: keep hazards off the field, absorb the hits that threaten it, and offer healing wish support for when it gets whittled down. You don't complain about LO Azelf because Psychic teams win by other methods.

Obvioulsy the LO Mesprit example isn't a great comparison, but it has better damage output, from an identical special movepool (STAB + BoltBeam), than a non-Download-boosted Genesect.

The point is to show there are other Pokemon in our metagame with the same qualities as Genesect (and better team support) that we don't even consider remotely broken, which means we shouldn't be banning Genesect.

 

[scpinion]

Going to double post to expand upon the above point since I don't wanna edit a post from my phone.

Genesect was banned from steel and OU because it had the team support to make it a highly effective hit and run attacker. You could afford to click u-turn repeatedly because steel had a resistance/immunity to whatever attack was aimed at Genesect. Steel also doesn't care about Stealth Rock and has reliable means to win the hazard war to punish the switches Genesect forces. In OU there we're trappers to remove Genesect's counters (Dugtrio removes Heatran), resistances to absorb attacks, plus a whole load of other team options. Bug has none of these things.

I liken Genesect's presence on Bug teams to the Deoxys forms on Psychic. The team support that makes them so effective just doesn't exist in Monotype, which means they're just another hazard stacking lead / bulky utility 'mon / strong mixed attacker with u turn.

In response to the CharY situation Sabella presented. It is just a 50/50. Click u turn and risk the Charizard ruining the switch with a fire move because they predict you to pivot. Clicking Tbolt on a switch to Rotom means something eats a Overheat or they get a Volt Switch into something else to bop you.

 

[Sabella]

the fact that it creates that many 50/50s on all different types seems unhealthy to me maybe im wrong. And i know you know this but the idea is to pivot out to something that threatens his team. ie heracross which with stone edge/ eq most of the time it can get a kill. thats more the scenario i was eluding to

 

[scpinion]

the fact that it creates that many 50/50s on all different types seems unhealthy to me maybe im wrong. And i know you know this but the idea is to pivot out to something that threatens his team. ie heracross which with stone edge/ eq most of the time it can get a kill. thats more the scenario i was eluding to

Yeah, I know the idea is to pivot to something that threatens, but your opponent knows Heracross is a threat too and doesn't want it to come in for free. As you said, this situation applies to many matchups.

If the reasoming for banning is it forces a bunch of unhealthy 50/50s, then I'm all for hearing arguments/seeing repays on that.

However, I'm strongly against banning it because it is too versatile/powerful for our metagame.

 

[mullin]

So, if you claim Genesect is broken in the Monotype metagame because it has excellent mixed attacking stats, is unpredictable, can run multiple viable sets and has access to u-turn to maintain momentum, then I encourage to propose a ban for Azelf (PokemonB) and Mesprit (PokemonC) too..

This plus protean was one of the main reasons for the grenninja bans in the first place. Granted I am not sure if I agree that genesect should be banned based on this alone. I personally think that it's typing and momentum it has is a big issue. I can slap hp fire on anything but that is a switch into another sweeper bug has in volcorona.
I think it's unfair to keep a Pokémon in the meta that is broken to help with another type Match up.

 

[Wanka]

the forcing 50/50s argument is kinda shit. If anything, predictions are healthy for a metagame and that is what 50/50's are. If you get it wrong u lose momentum and the tides flip in a battle, if you win it, then you get one more step closer to winning. Without 50/50s competitive pokemon as a whole wouldn't be what it is. With that logic battles would be decided by team match up (which sometimes is the case), but it is not the case a lot of the time. predictions and or 50/50's are what makes and breaks the winner of a battle so that argument is just kinda dumb from my perspective.

 

[Croven]

the forcing 50/50s argument is kinda shit. If anything, predictions are healthy for a metagame and that is what 50/50's are. If you get it wrong u lose momentum and the tides flip in a battle, if you win it, then you get one more step closer to winning. Without 50/50s competitive pokemon as a whole wouldn't be what it is. With that logic battles would be decided by team match up (which sometimes is the case), but it is not the case a lot of the time. predictions and or 50/50's are what makes and breaks the winner of a battle so that argument is just kinda dumb from my perspective.

lol i haven't really talked that much in this argument but i really disagree with this statement. 50/50s aren't predictions, its literally a 50/50, or a coin flip. each play has the same chance of occurring and the risk in both scenarios are the same: you lose a pokemon. sure if you get it right, you get to take one of his. but there's literally no skill involved in a 50/50; i could take a coin and flip it every time i get in one of these scenarios and i'd likely do just as well as someone who thought through the play for a full 2 minutes and finally clicked a move. forcing 50/50s is in no way "healthy"; it detracts from skill and makes the game really just decided by a coin.

predictions and or 50/50's are what makes and breaks the winner of a battle so that argument is just kinda dumb from my perspective.

what makes or breaks the winner of the match is in no way the winner of a coinflip, and even saying that prediction makes the winner is a stretch. in truth, prediction is just glorified guessing, and if that was what all pokemon matches were about, i'm pretty sure all of us would have quit by now. a good pokemon battler takes into account win cons, win scenario, opposing threats, what is useless in a match and what to sack, how to counteract the opponents win con, etc. now, prediction does play a part in this. for example, double switching to bring in a big threat is a good play, not denying that. also predicting an opponent's double switch is a very risky play, but if it works out, good for you, you just gained a ton of momentum. but at the end of the day, i can make 0 predictions (besides just "ok he has a keldeo in, lemme go to my special wall"), and as long as i keep in mind the overall game plan, i can easily win most of my matches.

in no part of that earlier paragraph did i make a mention of 50/50s, as they are not healthy for any metagame. in essence, they are guesses, since the risk and reward for each of the plays is the same for you and your opponent, so there is really no way of knowing what they will do, and the exact same goes for your opponent.

tl;dr ur wrong 50/50s aren't predictions they're coinflips; arent needed in a good meta, and largely detract from a healthy meta

i finished my Freeroamer style rant lets move on and have a nice day everyone