Why not listen to what the people are saying then? If you would've did this the voting way this wouldn't be a problem in the first place. Hollywood's justification of not trusting the community to make a decision that effects them is kind of ridiculous. Filtered Voting has always been the best method, there's no reason to deviate from it. People are still talking about it because they weren't able to contribute to whether it was banned or not. Even I feel like I wasted my time posting when hollywood quote on quote said "No good arguments against the ban." A ladder requirement to vote should've been the obvious choice, I don't see why he can't trust top ladder players opinion either. If the community makes up the meta why don't shouldn't they be trusted to decide its fate. They should be able to form it to what they(the community) want since they are what make it up after all. Are you saying the community cannot be trusted to make decisions that affect themselves and its for their own good? The problem with that is the community makes its own good. Credible voters are those that make that required ranking would display suitable knowledge of the tier and a care for monotype. You can't just assume bias upon them, its their opinion whether they want talonflame banned or not. Articuno I understand (No pun intended) you want this under wraps but it is a problem and it can't just be passed as "Keep it in PMs". Like I said if you would've made it voting I and others could have easily put the word out and this would've been settled. Then perhaps there would be more talk of impact. But here we are ~ Rorschach
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Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]
- Thread starter ryan
- Start date
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Volcy approves of the Talon ban.
Banning Talon doesn't make Fire uncompetitive either. They still have both Charizard megas, Heatran, and several other things that are difficult for some types to beat.
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Armaldo: 214-253 (60.4 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Flare blitz does the same damage to Armaldo btw. This means it can only check, cannot counter. Which means if Bullshit Bird comes out, something dies. You can't just switch something in unless you have a Shuckle.
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Shuckle: 84-99 (34.5 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
This is the only bug type that isn't 2hko'd by Choice Band Talonflame. And it can't do anything in response, except maybe toxic stall it (which no smart player will ever let you do).
Possible impacts of this change:
1. An increase in bug and grass teams (which will make fire even better due to still having a hard counter matchup to these types).
2. An increase in fighting teams.
Galladium
Banned deucer.
Just deal with the fact that Talonflame is banned and move on. Posts like this are cluttering up the thread.
I run mono-flying, and Talonflame was a centerpiece on my team.
Dude was broke as shit.
Dude was broke as shit.
Mate you seem to not understand. I'm okay with talonflame being banned. Its not like I didn't see this result coming. The method was bad and I'll be adamant about that.
While we may not all agree with the fact that the decisions was done without a suspect test, there have been instances of Quick Bans within other metas. The reason people will be upset about this Quick Ban is that most Suspect Tests are led with discussion like the discussion that occurred before this, but rather than a suspect test, there was just a ban following it. There is nothing we can do in regards to the ban, and while there are people upset here, there are people that are looking this that are overjoyed as well.
With the rise of Talonflame came the rise of flying monos in general. Flying monos rely on a core of Skarmory, Landorus (I usually more than T), Thundurus, Talonflame, a Zard, Togekiss/Something more support oriented. Talonflame inarguably made flying monos more offensive, but we can expect to see Flying Mono usage decrease a little, despite its still overpowered nature. Flying will likely look towards Staraptor to fill Talonflame's role, but I'm expecting to see the odd usage of Swellow or some other glass cannon Pokemon in the place of it. Talonflame was used as a fast attacker, but typically abused its priority over anything else. Flying will recover just fine from this change due to the access to a lot of Pokemon that sport its power (like Staraptor) that also have access to Scarf or other methods to outspeed.
As far as item usage, fighting/grass/bug teams will probably see a bigger change in their items than their team composition. Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn was mentioned earlier in the thread as a means to rack damage up on Talonflame. This was not an uncommon set before. The item that will likely see a decreased usage is sash, for the Pokemon that had no means of surviving otherwise. I've seen sashes on Pokemon such as Keldeo as well based on where I am on the monotype ladder, so I know that people don't just sash Pokemon like Breloom to survive hits like this. I think, given the nature of these teams, there will also be a definite shift in Mega Usage. For bug, either Mega Scizor, Mega Pinsir, or Mega Heracross all really didn't care for seeing Talonflame, but the biggest benefit here is Mega Pinsir. At base 105, Pinsir is just fast enough to outspeed some threats (Base 100 Pokemon without scarves in particular like the odd AV Victini, or Landorus at base 101). The lack of priority flying for Mega Pinsir will see a rise in usage of it, which may be the kiss of death for some people. Mega Pinsir recently fell from S Rank (in OU) due to the fact that, although it was capable of sweeping OU teams almost singlehandedly, it was horribly outclassed and threatened by Talonflame and the presence of Talonflame saw the usage of some more threatening walls to Pinsir. We are forced to acknowledge the fact that some threats such as Mega Pinsir will return due to this ban. For Fighting, both of these Megas saw usage despite the presence of Talonflame in the meta and will likely remain the same. Grass relied on Venusaur Mega and struggled to handle Talonflame as it was, so this may see a rise in popularity for, not only grass, but for poison (another type that struggled with fire teams).
Although Flying teams seem to be almost unaffected, most of the outcry I've personally seen has been from fire users. Talonflame sees two purposes on a fire team: 1.) High power 2.) Priority. High power isn't linked to its base attack, which doesn't even break 100, but to the fact that it had access to the recoil moves of its dual types that made it a threat. Acknowledging this high power, these following Pokemon all break base 110 Attack (favoring physical due to the fact that Talonflame was physical): Arcanine (110), Darmanitan (140), Entei (115), Charizard Mega X (130), Flareon (130), Emboar (123), and the incoming Volcanion (110. Of these Pokemon, Darmanitan, Charizard Mega X, and Flareon all receive abilities that further boost their attack, Sheer Force, Tough Claws, and Guts respectively. I do not expect to see usage of Flareon, but these three are all excellent candidates to fulfill the same task of power that Talonflame had. Victini should also be noted for its access to STAB V-Create at a base 180. Access to priority occurs in the following Pokemon, as well: Entei and Arcanine have access to Extremespeed, Infernape has access to Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave, and Emboar has access to Sucker Punch. Of these four, the only one that does not appear on the list of Pokemon with higher attacks is Infernape (With a respectable 102). It can also be noted that, with the exception of Charizard Mega-X, these are all Pokemon that are capable of running scarves for the speed side of priority. Entei is even very capable of running a band set.
As far as the composition of teams are concerned, I don't anticipate seeing Cradily used as much. Ferro counters flying well enough and Venusaur is capable of countering fire and there are few threats remaining that have access to both types of moves. Bug may see reduced use of Crustle and Armaldo (see the theme? Rock types, rock types everywhere), but ultimately, these Pokemon have other uses as well. It's more likely Armaldo will continue seeing use than Crustle though, as Armaldo has access to Rapid Spin. For fighting, Cobalion may not see any more use as that was the large reason it came into fighting monos earlier this gen. Otherwise, fighting should remain relatively stable. Flying and Fire may also choose to move away the hyper offense they have currently to find a new way to win to try and optimize their team, but due to the fact that Talonflame moved the meta into an offensive direction, even if Talonflame is now gone, people will try to replace it on their team rather than choose another route altogether. I don't agree with this method of fixing a team, as this will ultimately find you, as listed above, trying to replace it with a Pokemon like it. If Gale Wings were suspected and banned, Talonflame would lose usage, dramatically. Talonflame's use is its priority. These Pokemon listed above are not Talonflame, and ultimately, the people affected have options on what to do, but approaching a new team should be done while acknowledging the meta, not necessarily acknowledging what Talonflame was.
With the rise of Talonflame came the rise of flying monos in general. Flying monos rely on a core of Skarmory, Landorus (I usually more than T), Thundurus, Talonflame, a Zard, Togekiss/Something more support oriented. Talonflame inarguably made flying monos more offensive, but we can expect to see Flying Mono usage decrease a little, despite its still overpowered nature. Flying will likely look towards Staraptor to fill Talonflame's role, but I'm expecting to see the odd usage of Swellow or some other glass cannon Pokemon in the place of it. Talonflame was used as a fast attacker, but typically abused its priority over anything else. Flying will recover just fine from this change due to the access to a lot of Pokemon that sport its power (like Staraptor) that also have access to Scarf or other methods to outspeed.
As far as item usage, fighting/grass/bug teams will probably see a bigger change in their items than their team composition. Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn was mentioned earlier in the thread as a means to rack damage up on Talonflame. This was not an uncommon set before. The item that will likely see a decreased usage is sash, for the Pokemon that had no means of surviving otherwise. I've seen sashes on Pokemon such as Keldeo as well based on where I am on the monotype ladder, so I know that people don't just sash Pokemon like Breloom to survive hits like this. I think, given the nature of these teams, there will also be a definite shift in Mega Usage. For bug, either Mega Scizor, Mega Pinsir, or Mega Heracross all really didn't care for seeing Talonflame, but the biggest benefit here is Mega Pinsir. At base 105, Pinsir is just fast enough to outspeed some threats (Base 100 Pokemon without scarves in particular like the odd AV Victini, or Landorus at base 101). The lack of priority flying for Mega Pinsir will see a rise in usage of it, which may be the kiss of death for some people. Mega Pinsir recently fell from S Rank (in OU) due to the fact that, although it was capable of sweeping OU teams almost singlehandedly, it was horribly outclassed and threatened by Talonflame and the presence of Talonflame saw the usage of some more threatening walls to Pinsir. We are forced to acknowledge the fact that some threats such as Mega Pinsir will return due to this ban. For Fighting, both of these Megas saw usage despite the presence of Talonflame in the meta and will likely remain the same. Grass relied on Venusaur Mega and struggled to handle Talonflame as it was, so this may see a rise in popularity for, not only grass, but for poison (another type that struggled with fire teams).
Although Flying teams seem to be almost unaffected, most of the outcry I've personally seen has been from fire users. Talonflame sees two purposes on a fire team: 1.) High power 2.) Priority. High power isn't linked to its base attack, which doesn't even break 100, but to the fact that it had access to the recoil moves of its dual types that made it a threat. Acknowledging this high power, these following Pokemon all break base 110 Attack (favoring physical due to the fact that Talonflame was physical): Arcanine (110), Darmanitan (140), Entei (115), Charizard Mega X (130), Flareon (130), Emboar (123), and the incoming Volcanion (110. Of these Pokemon, Darmanitan, Charizard Mega X, and Flareon all receive abilities that further boost their attack, Sheer Force, Tough Claws, and Guts respectively. I do not expect to see usage of Flareon, but these three are all excellent candidates to fulfill the same task of power that Talonflame had. Victini should also be noted for its access to STAB V-Create at a base 180. Access to priority occurs in the following Pokemon, as well: Entei and Arcanine have access to Extremespeed, Infernape has access to Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave, and Emboar has access to Sucker Punch. Of these four, the only one that does not appear on the list of Pokemon with higher attacks is Infernape (With a respectable 102). It can also be noted that, with the exception of Charizard Mega-X, these are all Pokemon that are capable of running scarves for the speed side of priority. Entei is even very capable of running a band set.
As far as the composition of teams are concerned, I don't anticipate seeing Cradily used as much. Ferro counters flying well enough and Venusaur is capable of countering fire and there are few threats remaining that have access to both types of moves. Bug may see reduced use of Crustle and Armaldo (see the theme? Rock types, rock types everywhere), but ultimately, these Pokemon have other uses as well. It's more likely Armaldo will continue seeing use than Crustle though, as Armaldo has access to Rapid Spin. For fighting, Cobalion may not see any more use as that was the large reason it came into fighting monos earlier this gen. Otherwise, fighting should remain relatively stable. Flying and Fire may also choose to move away the hyper offense they have currently to find a new way to win to try and optimize their team, but due to the fact that Talonflame moved the meta into an offensive direction, even if Talonflame is now gone, people will try to replace it on their team rather than choose another route altogether. I don't agree with this method of fixing a team, as this will ultimately find you, as listed above, trying to replace it with a Pokemon like it. If Gale Wings were suspected and banned, Talonflame would lose usage, dramatically. Talonflame's use is its priority. These Pokemon listed above are not Talonflame, and ultimately, the people affected have options on what to do, but approaching a new team should be done while acknowledging the meta, not necessarily acknowledging what Talonflame was.
Well I'm sorry that an unofficial server doesn't get to partake in official bans. There is nothing stopping you from going on the forums and seeing what's going on in Monotype. Let this be a lesson to you in the future. The world doesn't revolve around Frost, it revolves around main. If Frost is that upset about the ban, they can choose to repeal the Talonflame ban.
Edit: Also, we didn't even get to have a word in this either. However I supported the ban. Win-win situation.
Did you even read anything before posting? There are no counters to Talonflame on Bug and Grass teams. Fighting has a considerably better time dealing with this because literally 90% of fighting types carry a rock move. Anyway, nothing safely switches in except Shuckle, which gets 4KO'd. And what can Shuckle do in return? Nothing.
Talonflame is actually the reason why I don't use Grass or Bug. I can deal with being at a disadvantage typing-wise but Talonflame puts it over the top to the point where I can go from 5 pokemon to 0 while he still has 2 left.
LOL, many posters who actually play monotype have posted that THERE ARE counters on Bug/Grass teams please read all the posts in the thread
I'm not gonna waste my time looking for something that doesn't exist. Either you give me these so called "counters" and I'll give you reasons as to why they are not counters or you can accept your defeat and not reply. Your choice.
If you go one page 3,4,5 You will see many posts. Why would we just repost whats already there when its just a couple clicks away from you.
The only thing I've found is Scarf Armaldo. Which isn't a counter since it doesn't safely switch in.
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Armaldo: 214-253 (60.4 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Armaldo Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 124-148 (41.6 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
1. Scarf Armaldo is ass.
2. Adamant doesn't even outspeed banded Talonflame.
3. Although Talonflame dies to rock moves, Armaldo can't switch in, so it isn't a counter, only a check.
Whoops, forgot about Crustle.
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Crustle: 177-208 (62.7 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Same reasons as above)
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cradily: 157-186 (41.7 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Ok. I can respect that.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cradily: 273-321 (72.6 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Cradily can take care of Talonflame for a grass mono. Ferrothorn can also deal with it reasonably well, although you'd have to sacrifice it to deal with Talonflame. (Not gonna bother with Ferro calcs.)
Fighting has its ways to deal with it too.
Bug is still left wide open. Your turn.
I would just like to say that putting Cradily on your grass team is very beneficial not just for Talonflame but for other birds. Even before 6th gen I ran this set which worked wonders.
Cradily @ Leftovers
Ability: Suction Cups
EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 Atk
Careful Nature
- Curse
- Stockpile
- Rest
- Rock Slide
honestly let frost get a say in this. look at the ladder, numbers 1 2 3 and 4 are all frost people (darkjak having 2 alts), along with a lot of other down that line, i mean anttya was the one to convince haunter to make this a thread and the first place, and where does she go for monotype, FROST.
Im not sure what part of Scarfed Armaldo works for you but yeah...its a bad idea. The fact is that quite a few pokemon actually live 1 hit from Talon and are able to use Rock Moves.
Quick question wtf are you trying to prove something when a decision was already made. What we should be talking about is how the Metagame has changed with Talonflame gone, and if the Tier is at the balance we aimed to achieve through making a Banlist in the first place.
Yes, I'm talking about Swift Swim.
Welcome to Monotype Mark II
Way to take a post out of context. I was trying to prove that Grass only has Cradily and Ferro to take care of Talonflame, while Bug does not have a way to deal with Talonflame.
Again, how are you gonna switch Armaldo into Talonflame to set up rain? Are you gonna set up rain with another mon? The only benefit that provides you other than Swift Swim is to weaken fire type moves. Waste of a move slot and waste of a turn.
This is one of the many reasons why the community wasn't allowed to vote. While the majority does not support the ban, there are no strong arguments as to why it shouldn't be banned. Behind every decision there is a reason.
Anyway, I'm happy about Monotype getting its own ban list. It allowed us to dispose of the one thing that threw the metagame out of balance, Talonflame. There is nothing else we can do to make it more balanced without getting into complex bans. I don't even know what we would do if complex bans were allowed.
I can see a decline in Flying/Fire teams as a result of this ban. Talonflame was always a staple on any Flying team, it'll be interesting to see how this plays out. This doesn't affect fire as much though, due to the fact that running more than one quad weakness to SR is crippling, while most only have one way of dealing with hazards in the form of Twerkoal's rapid spin.
I just wanted to repeat my earlier argument that having checks to talonflame and talonflame killing itself are not good arguments. First of all, what makes talonflame OP in monotype is how it interacts with its teammates. It can always escape from a counter and come back in later, and then the counter won't be able to survive after it switches in. If stealth rocks are a problem, you can always use a sitrus berry or a defogger. In addition, counters for talonflame may be needed to check other pokemon, and one pokemon can't counter everything. Second, many people use acrobatics to prevent recoil damage (this also happens to work well along with a sitrus berry). A good enough player with talonflame can make it nearly impossible for a team at a type disadvantage to win. I sometimes ladder with a bug team because I Hate Bugs (go figure), and I've seen that while I have about a 50% chance of winning against flying or fire, I never win when the opponent plays gale wings talonflame well.
I am perfectly aware of what you were trying to do, and even hearing that from you yourself my question stands. Why are you recycling arguments that people have already Posted, especially when a decision has already been made. It has already been Banned behind the very reasonings we have been saying over and over, so I think it's in this discussion's best interest to move on and talk about how it effects us now. All your doing is starting an unecessary arguement. So you didn't need to "prove" what we already know. And I am the one taking things out of context, yet and still you say
When no one no where said anything about Rain Dance Armaldo. This is what I said:
As in, uh, exactly what I said let's discuss Swift Swim. So while your over there accusing me of taking things out of context, it would appear as if you yourself are the one doing the very thing you think Im doing.
lol
And,
First of all who are you and what in your right mind thinks its your place to say if a Community should or should not decide about decisions that effect them. Last time I checked, your name wasn't Hollywood and you aren't the Leader of this Tier. Second of all, what was "one of the many reasons why the community wasn't allowed to vote"? Because you thought I suggested Swift Swim Armaldo? Because I'm trying to prevent you from looking dumb? Whatever your reasons are, again you don't have right to speak on whether we, the players, should be allowed to make a decision. That's between us and Treecko, so I would retract that statement.
Also, who are you to speak for the "majority". If anyone here speaks for the majority it's people who actually play this Tier, and not only do that but also hang out in the communities, consistently. So don't pretend for one second that your some sort of representative here, because you are not.
Tl:DR: GTFO you and your comments are redundant, nicest way I can say it
EDIT: You know what before you even respond, get on PS!. We don't need you diluting this discussion more than you already have. Got a question, comment, or retort, come PM me on Showdown.
Hello all! First time poster here, but a long term player on showdown. I have been silently following this forum since around the 100th post and have finally decided that my opinion must be heard. I am posting today to discuss the ethics behind the Talonflame ban. I find it appalling that the large community of players on this server was never given a vote in regards to this ban. In my opinion, that the administrators of this particular metagame simply do not care about the average player. Despite the fact that the average player makes up a super majority within this community. It is discouraging and infuriating to the community at large when a cabal of 5 administrators make a decision that drastically affects the way we all play the game. Additionally, it is incredibly disheartening to hear that a single ONE administrator (Hollywood) can make a decision, without any community input, and that decision immediately becomes law. The way that rules are established within this particular metagame needs to change, immediately. With that being said, I have a few proposals that may help this community become a more welcoming one, that does not alienate the majority of it's users as it does now.
1. Proposed rules/bans must be suspect tested in some capacity.
This should really be a no brainer, but apparently the administration needs it spelled out for them. Any proposed rules/bans need to be tested for accuracy/potency. The administration clearly does not trust the community, and there is no way a suspect ladder will work, so they need to accomplish these tests themselves. A series of guidelines must be proposed and approved by the community as to how these tests will take place.
2. Proposed rules/bans must be VOTED ON
I do not think that the entire community needs/should vote on a rule. However, some percentage of the community has to vote in order for the community at large to feel represented. A certain ranking on the ladder should qualify a user to vote. Once that user is qualified they must register as a voter with the administration and proceed to vote. Guidelines must be proposed and approved by the community as to who can become a voter and for how long they stay a voter.
3. Propsed rules/bans must be advertised
This was one of the controversy that affected the talonflame ban. IF NOBODY KNOW THAT A BAN IS BEING CONSIDERED, NOBODY WILL ADD THEIR OPINION. It is entirely up to the administration to make sure that the community is aware that a rule change is currently being considered. This can be easily accomplished by adding a welcome message to the chat room that informs the player of current events within the community as soon as the player logs in. Alternatively, Frost has a toggle option at the top of their chatrooms that displays current tournament standings. We could adopt this, and use it to inform the community of current events across all metagames.
Basically what I'm saying is this, when a group of administrators makes a decision without substantial community input, it completely alienates large sections of the community which destroys the already fragile community.
1. Proposed rules/bans must be suspect tested in some capacity.
This should really be a no brainer, but apparently the administration needs it spelled out for them. Any proposed rules/bans need to be tested for accuracy/potency. The administration clearly does not trust the community, and there is no way a suspect ladder will work, so they need to accomplish these tests themselves. A series of guidelines must be proposed and approved by the community as to how these tests will take place.
2. Proposed rules/bans must be VOTED ON
I do not think that the entire community needs/should vote on a rule. However, some percentage of the community has to vote in order for the community at large to feel represented. A certain ranking on the ladder should qualify a user to vote. Once that user is qualified they must register as a voter with the administration and proceed to vote. Guidelines must be proposed and approved by the community as to who can become a voter and for how long they stay a voter.
3. Propsed rules/bans must be advertised
This was one of the controversy that affected the talonflame ban. IF NOBODY KNOW THAT A BAN IS BEING CONSIDERED, NOBODY WILL ADD THEIR OPINION. It is entirely up to the administration to make sure that the community is aware that a rule change is currently being considered. This can be easily accomplished by adding a welcome message to the chat room that informs the player of current events within the community as soon as the player logs in. Alternatively, Frost has a toggle option at the top of their chatrooms that displays current tournament standings. We could adopt this, and use it to inform the community of current events across all metagames.
Basically what I'm saying is this, when a group of administrators makes a decision without substantial community input, it completely alienates large sections of the community which destroys the already fragile community.
I'm not going to really follow the debate here (although I've skimmed and seen a few less than stellar things tossed around), but I'd just like to say that as OM leader I am aware of the issues surrounding this decision and finding a way bridge the gap to the rest of the monotype community is high on my to-do list.
Please don't respond to this post; we need a plan first.
Please don't respond to this post; we need a plan first.
I just gave you a plan...
The first step in your plan should be to include the community members in planning and not be so secretive. Make a forum for it.
By "a plan" I mean "specific and detailed idea to follow to better incorporate the two communities" meaning rather than 'make everyone happy <3' I'm saying 'do this and do that and don't do that and do this once those are done' and so on and so forth - and yes, I've started considering a forum (although for reasons unrelated to your post).
Hollywood already explained why they didn't hold a vote or a suspect test. They know best. That is why they're in charge. I'm not gonna bother after this post because no matter what anyone says, no matter how right they are, nobody listens.
It doesn't matter whether or not the community gets to vote on it, it's how rational the ban was. It was all explained in Hollywood's post and since that nobody has come up with any good arguments to appose the ban. They have a reason to ban it, and they don't have a reason to keep it in. This is the reason why I am in favor of there being no vote this time around.
The vast majority of people disagree with the ban, but they don't even have any evidence to back their opinion up. Why don't people have any evidence? Because there is none! The ban is completely justified in every way, shape, and form.
The basis of everyone's argument here seems to be based around the fact that they couldn't vote. That's completely invalid. Behind every decision there needs to be a reason. If there is no reason then most likely that decision is going to be wrong.
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