MonsJustMons

[Beta.]

1otherr139477.11732 ± 57

ayy, first time i've topped a ladder :)


what do people think of dropping more ubers? i'm pretty sure blaziken and deo-d would be balanced.

Blaziken was one of the first mons to be dropped. It is in the OP all of the mons dropped. Dropping Deo-D isn't really all that good of an idea, mainly due to the fact of the major support, defense, and recovery it contains. If it was banned becasue that mon was bad with just pressure as an ability, it won't be really "wanted" in this meta.

 

[yoman5]

Blaziken is already dropped. And really really bad. Currently too lazy to keep laddering, 2 -35's in a row due to hax is demoralizing when the ladder is this dead. DeoD is actually probably a pretty safe drop when forced to be itemless. DeoS *might* be safe as without investment its offenses are pretty awful, but psycho boost is still a strong strong stab and its coverage is huge so I wouldn't recommend it, at least not yet.

 

[thesecondbest]

Just wanted to comment that Deo-S saw insane usage in BH last gen, but with infinite EVs gone, it practically disappeared. You would outspeed the whole meta anyway and go practically max in both attacking stats. So it's far worse than in OU, especially without life orb. Deo-S honestly seems safer than the Defense form, but both of them should be unbanned for sure.

 

[mallpal]

deo-d vs mew defensively:

0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-D: 88-105 (41.9 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 139-165 (44.8 - 53.2%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO

deo-d vs mew offensively:

0 SpA Deoxys-D Psycho Boost vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 126-148 (38.6 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Mew Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 114-135 (34.9 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

it's just barely bulkier than mew, and the only thing it has over mew is spikes and a slightly stronger stab (on the first use only). spikes is a solid asset and it will probably justify using it over mew in some cases, but I don't think it pushes it into broken territory.

deo-s, on the other hand... not sold on it being balanced tbh, since it has the fastest taunt in the game and hazards, it's pretty hard to anti-lead and has the offensive movepool to take on most of the meta if it wants to. it doesn't hurt to try it though, i guess.

lugia was another thing i had my eye on, just putting it out there lol

 

[Ghoul King]

I kind of want Genesect rebanned. Its access to Shift Gear is extraordinarily threatening to the entire metagame, it's bulky enough to live pretty much any one non-Fire hit, it has a diverse enough movepool to take on literally anything, it's not that threatened by hazards... if it didn't have Shift Gear I'd think it was a cool 'mon to have in the meta, but as-is it's far too prone to "gets one turn of setup-->gg". I've repeatedly adjusted my team to better fight it, but its access to Shift Gear just makes it way too threatening.

re: possibly dropping other Ubers

Deoxys: Normal and Attack should obviously be left alone, even if they no longer have sashes and are now so fragile a stiff breeze will incinerate them. I have trouble imagining Defense being all that scary, given the tremendous loss to bulk it's taken, and having something that might viable set Spikes would actually be nice. Speed would be an amazing revenger, almost impossible to stop from KOing something, while also being a fairly solid suicide hazard lead that can hard-stop other suicide hazard leads. Personally I mostly think unbanning Deoxys-Defense is a good idea.

Giratina: It's bulky as heck, but overall everything is less bulky in MJM, and its only recovery is Rest. 90 Speed is also not that impressive. Maybe?

Groudon: One of the best Ground types in the game, and that's about it. No Drought, no Primal... Groudon was always one of the less impressive Ubers prior to ORAS. Maybe?

Xerneas: I'm only mentioning it because the loss of Power Herb and the loss of Fairy Aura and the fragility of everything everywhere makes it, theoretically, a lot more manageable. In actuality I would guess it would be about as bad as Genesect, just slower to get set up.

I don't see any other Ubers as being at all plausible to be dropped. (Well, I want to say Rayquaza, but I'm not entirely clear why it's Ubers in Standard anyway, so I clearly don't have a complete picture on it)

 

[yoman5]

I think groudon is too strong as just an offensive threat, as even things like weavile can't really kill it. It's coverage is top tier, it can set sr, and is incredibly good at multiple roles. Rock polish and sd access allow it to customize to beat both stall and offense, and the raw stats are just too high imo. Xerneas is an interesting thought but I think geomancy on that level of bulk is still not too hard to set up, and even just cm/rest sets or bulky attacking set a la garchomp would be incredibly strong just on a base stats level. Giratina actually seems like it'd be okay, and the lack of good recovery is what I think stops it being too good. Out of the ones listed I think only giratina should really be considered. And on rayquaza I have to say hell no. If you think shift gear genesect is 1 turn setup>gg sd or dd rayq is exponentially worse, as it has incredible offensive stats, a good mixed pool that includes draco fire blast and ice beam, and vcreate, dragon's ascent, eq, and stone edge physically. There is no way rayquaza should be allowed (possibly noteworthy point as well: mega rayq is the ONLY mega that doesn't require an item).

 

[Josh]

possibly noteworthy point as well: mega rayq is the ONLY mega that doesn't require an item

Ghoul King is talking about regular ray...
ftr I can't explain as well as better OU players but in general its just too powerful. 105/150/90/150/90/95 is too much for a lot of mons to deal with, and a lot of coverage plus espeed makes it hard to revenge. it isnt really borderline either, clear ban,



my thoughts in general about uber unbans that have and havent happened yet.

deo-n and deo-a: oh god we dont want the whole tier that doesnt have priority ohko'd so no thanks
groudon: ehhhhhh it seems too powerful imo. it is hard to revenge with its insane bulk, and can run rocks and many different moves, it is not fully predictable. as well as sd/rp to boost up. do not unban imo.
xern: 126/131/95/131/98/99 with excellent typing is a lot to deal with, and it has enough coverage as well as potential for aromatherapy support. this will be worse than genesect, do not unban.
deo-d: unban, it'll be a decent spike setter like someone said and in general just a good bulky mon.
deo-s: revenge killer, but its power really isnt that great. i vote unban, it doesnt have LO or atk/spa EV support making its power enough to effectively revenge.
gira: this one is iffy. we are trying to get it unbanned in no status currently, but honestly its borderline here. it can still effectively play support. im indifferent to ban or unban, but am leaning towards unban.
lugia: this one hasnt been suggested afaik, but i think itll be ok. it loses multiscale, and when a mon like lugia has reliable recovery to ressurect the multiscale its just a bad idea. now it doesnt get its lefties or its defensive investments, and loses multiscale. i think itll be a great mon for stall but i dont think itll be broken. i vote unban.

 

[flowre]

Really entertaining meta to play for fun since stall is practically unviable. Good speed and coverage in the team is generally enough to win battles. Bulky offense is also good, but too weak to momentum. The only thing I see that is probably too powerful is Genesect.

 

[Anna says hi]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monsjustmons-257920350

Did you just say stall was unviable? Sure, it's hard to use, but it is by no means unviable.

 

[yoman5]

Ghoul King is talking about regular ray...
ftr I can't explain as well as better OU players but in general its just too powerful. 105/150/90/150/90/95 is too much for a lot of mons to deal with, and a lot of coverage plus espeed makes it hard to revenge. it isnt really borderline either, clear ban,



my thoughts in general about uber unbans that have and havent happened yet.

deo-n and deo-a: oh god we dont want the whole tier that doesnt have priority ohko'd so no thanks
groudon: ehhhhhh it seems too powerful imo. it is hard to revenge with its insane bulk, and can run rocks and many different moves, it is not fully predictable. as well as sd/rp to boost up. do not unban imo.
xern: 126/131/95/131/98/99 with excellent typing is a lot to deal with, and it has enough coverage as well as potential for aromatherapy support. this will be worse than genesect, do not unban.
deo-d: unban, it'll be a decent spike setter like someone said and in general just a good bulky mon.
deo-s: revenge killer, but its power really isnt that great. i vote unban, it doesnt have LO or atk/spa EV support making its power enough to effectively revenge.
gira: this one is iffy. we are trying to get it unbanned in no status currently, but honestly its borderline here. it can still effectively play support. im indifferent to ban or unban, but am leaning towards unban.
lugia: this one hasnt been suggested afaik, but i think itll be ok. it loses multiscale, and when a mon like lugia has reliable recovery to ressurect the multiscale its just a bad idea. now it doesnt get its lefties or its defensive investments, and loses multiscale. i think itll be a great mon for stall but i dont think itll be broken. i vote unban.

My point was we'd have to specifically ban megaray if we unbanned ray, because it doesn't require a megastone to evolve and as such could mevo in this metagame (A unique edge case).

 

[Funbot28]

My point was we'd have to specifically ban megaray if we unbanned ray, because it doesn't require a megastone to evolve and as such could mevo in this metagame (A unique edge case).

Just like in Ubers, we can add a "Mega Rayquaza Clause that won't let it mega evo even with DA"

 

[yoman5]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monsjustmons-257920350

Did you just say stall was unviable? Sure, it's hard to use, but it is by no means unviable.

The problem that I had with that team is what I pointed out in OM chat yesterday, which is that torn+skymin+gene (a common offensive core) does a huge number to that team, as it has a very hard time with torn, and a harder time with 2 uturners.

 

[Ghoul King]

So is there any possibility of getting Genesect rebanned? Or at least discussion of the possibility? Do people have teams that never ever fear Genesect and I'm just bad at MJM? I'm enjoying MJM, but Genesect drives me up the wall.

 

[yoman5]

On what ground though? I do find it incredibly potent, but it doesn't seem broken on most conventional grounds. It does not auto win even vs momentum or hyper offense (can't ohko tornadus at +1, for one) just by setting up, so it's not a broken sweeper, it only has a few sets currently (to my knowledge there's just the shift gear set and then mixed uturn sets, which I've only really seen myself and a few others run) so it's not like megaluc where you don't know what set til it kills you and then you lose. It is really strong but that in and of itself is not bannable I don't think. I'm not saying we shouldn't ban it, but sell me on it.

 

[Ghoul King]

A Shift Gear set running nothing more than Iron Head+Zen Headbutt/whatever+Blaze Kick will outspeed literally everything after one Shift Gear and OHKO pretty much anything it can hit super effectively -which is most things with enough Defense to otherwise tank hits, ie the myriad Steel and Rock types- while being able to tank through priority and, indeed, even strong neutral STABs just fine. It's got answers to basically every strongly viable Pokemon in the tier, and due to its general bulk and solid typing it's not at all hard to get that opportunity to Shift Gear, even against teams made of nothing but fast, hard-hitting Pokemon. (The sort where "offensive pressure" should keep it from doing so)

My personal experience is that, short of having literally every member of my team carrying a Fire move (Which is absurd), it's not possible to prevent Genesect from getting off a Shift Gear (When in the hands of a decent player), and it's basically guaranteed to KO at least one Pokemon and maul another before it goes down. Its access to good Special moves and enough Special Attack to use them makes decent Physical walls shaky (Hi Hippowdon, I have Ice beam, I don't care that +1 Iron Head is a 3HKO on you) while its access to Extreme Speed allows it to plow through priority abusers, most notably Sucker Punchers. It can't run everything, obviously, but it's easy to just give Genesect free kills because you think you have a check and it turns out your 'check' isn't, thanks to its diversity.

It puts me in mind of some nightmare combination of Aegislash and Deoxys-Attack: it's too diverse for anything to be a safe, reliable check to it, and its firepower and Speed (Thanks to Shift Gear) are so overwhelming that you can't stop it from getting at least one KO. Only unlike Aegislash and Deoxys-Attack, its potential to sweep an entire team is real, especially since its preferred STAB move has a 30% chance of causing a Flinch, allowing even a fresh Pokemon that can tank one hit from it and retaliate with a OHKO to be haxed past.

I can't name a single reliable answer to it, and honestly basically everything that functions as a check does so by virtue of "if Genesect is stupid enough to come in and try to setup on them, they hit it with a Fire move and OHKO it". That stops working once it has Shift Gear up, especially if it has Stealth Rock support, which is depressingly easy to get up and much harder to safely clear.

 

[Anna says hi]

Zapdos
Ability: Pressure
- Thunderbolt / Discharge
- Heat Wave
- Defog / Toxic
- Roost

Here's an answer to both Shift Gear Genesect and all variants of Tornadus.
Zapdos comes in on whatever move Genesect uses (except ice beam, which is a 2HKO) and tanks the hit and OHKOs with Heat Wave.
+1 0 Atk Genesect Blaze Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 128-151 (44.1 - 52%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Genesect: 360-424 (142.8 - 168.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It also counters Tornadus by virtue of its defensive typing:
0 SpA Tornadus Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 94-111 (32.4 - 38.2%) -- 97.3% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Tornadus Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 80-94 (27.5 - 32.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tornadus: 300-354 (111.9 - 132%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Be warned that Tornadus has a small chance to live Discharge if it's at full health; for this reason, Thunderbolt is preferred.
0 SpA Zapdos Discharge vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tornadus: 266-314 (99.2 - 117.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

 

[yoman5]

Fire and water types are pretty solid checks, I think the most notable are entei/suicune, fireblast chomp threatens it pretty heavily (and fire blast is far from unreasonable on chomp, because of skarm/ferro), heatran laughs pretty heartily. There are a couple others I can't remember at the moment. The good checks/counters aren't necessarily in the meta atm but there are several that probably should be.

 

[Ghoul King]

0 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 360-428 (110.4 - 131.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Outsped after Shift Gear.

Heatran loses up to 40% from +1 Blaze Kick, resents Stealth Rock, and is vastly less appealing in general with no Flashfire, no Leftovers or Air Balloon... I've not seen it and I would be genuinely surprised if it found a place in the meta.

Why would Entei be viable? Its offensive coverage is terrible, it has no recovery, it's vulnerable to Stealth Rock... Sacred Fire is cool and all, and Extreme Speed isn't without value, but Entei really struggles for relevancy.

0 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Genesect: 82-97 (32.5 - 38.4%) -- 97.9% chance to 3HKO

vs

0 SpA Genesect Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 112-134 (36.1 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Suicune can be Giga Drained through, and I've seen Genesect run it. Genesect also has Energy Ball and Thunderbolt for more raw damage. Water types are not a reliable check to Genesect. Suicune's only recovery is Rest.

As for Zapdos, I've been running it pretty much the whole time, and it really struggles, between Stealth Rock vulnerability and the general fragility of the meta, often being forced to choose between Roost or Defog before it has to switch again or risk dying, and with its offensive coverage so limited and so many important Pokemon it should check outspeeding it it's easy to lose it. It also takes more than 40% from +1 Zen Headbutt and 60-70% from Ice Beam, meaning Genesect can get lucky once with the flinch and KO it, or if Zapdos has even minor injuries and is switching in on Stealth Rock, Ice Beam is liable to finish it. Or Zapdos can just miss with Heat Wave, bonus points, in which case, again, 2HKO.

 

[canno]

I don't see how Entei isn't viable in this meta. Access to ESpeed and Sacred Fire is awesome, not to mention one of its best checks, Heatran, loses the ability to check it. If anything Entei is much better off in this meta, as it can actually use its base 100 Speed correctly (it being Adamant Locked doesn't matter when natures don't do anything) and everything overall hits much weaker (admittingly, including itself, but still), letting it take hits much better. Plus it doesn't have competition from Zard X as a physical Fire-type. It's coverage isnt amazing but its serviceable - Stone Edge covers basically most of what Entei would want to hit. Entei is probably one of the best Fire-types in the meta right now, especially since it can check Genesect. The best Genesect can actually do to it is either use Techno Blast or +1 Gunk Shot, both of which aren't great coverage options outside of Genesect. Still, +1 Gunk Shot does ok damage

+1 0 Atk Genesect Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Entei: 173-204 (46.6 - 54.9%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Genesect Boomburst (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Entei: 128-151 (34.5 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Genesect Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Entei: 116-137 (31.2 - 36.9%) -- 76.3% chance to 3HKO

but you're going to have to weaken / get rid of Entei if you plan on sweeping, especially since it outspeeds you pre SG. Heatran does an even better job since it doesn't care for these options and is bulkier, but Heatran is a bit worst off in this meta.

That being said, I do think Genesect is worth at least another look, if only because it can pick and choose what counters it outside of a few cases, by having the correct coverage moves. It even has ESpeed and Explosion if that's your cup of tea.

 

[yoman5]

0 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 360-428 (110.4 - 131.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Outsped after Shift Gear.

Heatran loses up to 40% from +1 Blaze Kick, resents Stealth Rock, and is vastly less appealing in general with no Flashfire, no Leftovers or Air Balloon... I've not seen it and I would be genuinely surprised if it found a place in the meta.

Why would Entei be viable? Its offensive coverage is terrible, it has no recovery, it's vulnerable to Stealth Rock... Sacred Fire is cool and all, and Extreme Speed isn't without value, but Entei really struggles for relevancy.

0 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Genesect: 82-97 (32.5 - 38.4%) -- 97.9% chance to 3HKO

vs

0 SpA Genesect Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 112-134 (36.1 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Suicune can be Giga Drained through, and I've seen Genesect run it. Genesect also has Energy Ball and Thunderbolt for more raw damage. Water types are not a reliable check to Genesect. Suicune's only recovery is Rest.

As for Zapdos, I've been running it pretty much the whole time, and it really struggles, between Stealth Rock vulnerability and the general fragility of the meta, often being forced to choose between Roost or Defog before it has to switch again or risk dying, and with its offensive coverage so limited and so many important Pokemon it should check outspeeding it it's easy to lose it. It also takes more than 40% from +1 Zen Headbutt and 60-70% from Ice Beam, meaning Genesect can get lucky once with the flinch and KO it, or if Zapdos has even minor injuries and is switching in on Stealth Rock, Ice Beam is liable to finish it. Or Zapdos can just miss with Heat Wave, bonus points, in which case, again, 2HKO.

Gigadrain/energyball/tbolt genesect is getting into the area of just spewing random moves that a shift gear set can run to lure but aren't common and really don't matter for the purposes of checking it. Ice beam can be in the conversation, as it takes out the current in meta stops to it. Entei is actually incredibly viable at the moment, as many of its switchins do not appreciate the burn. But honestly at this point you're just trying to bring up a bunch of irrelevant moves in what seems to be an outright attempt to just get it out because you don't like it. Lure sets always have and always will exist, and aren't a reason to ban something. Outright overpowered offenses or the ability to 1shot most of the meta and setup on it are not actually quite what it does. It is certainly extemely powerful, but on a basis of 1 turn to set up and then outright killing your team weavile with sd is actually far more potent. it already outspeeds most of the meta, and night slash/icicle crash is insane coverage in the meta, with access to ice shard for the few faster mons such as talonflame and skymin. Yes genesect is powerful, but it is not alone in this meta as far as 1 turn of setup and then obliterating a lot after rocks. The inability to ohko a few common mons such as thundurus even at +1 (0 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 216-256 (80.5 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO as well) means that it's not actually incredibly difficult to revenge it. Yes it is powerful, but no the ability to run lure sets does not make it broken.

 

[Ghoul King]

I'm not sure how you're getting that Thundurus calc. I get

0 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 192-228 (71.6 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

when I remove all relevant IVs. Which is a 75% chance of a OHKO after Stealth Rock, regardless, and again, it's really easy to get Rocks up and a lot harder to get them back down.

Weavile doesn't outspeed literally everything in the meta, and running Ice Shard means less coverage. If it's something like Ice Shard/Low Kick/Night Slash/Swords Dance then Hippowdon can come in on it and kill it, Whirlwind it out, whatever. It's also vulnerable to Stealth Rock, sufficiently fragile that even neutral priority hurts it a lot, and basically hard-stopped by Scizor. 0 Atk Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 168-200 (67.2 - 80%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock. Even without Stealth Rock, that's painful, enough so that Weavile is basically criminally stupid if it stays in, and it can't do more than 43% without Swords Dance, in which case it still isn't going to KO, even with Stealth Rock! So it's fairly easy to force Weavile out, reliably, and it suffers for having to do so. Neither of these is nearly as true of Genesect.

I ran Entei for a while, and it was just plain disappointing. Spreading Burns is surprisingly lame when everything is so fragile anyway, and most things that are going to switch into Entei don't take a firepower hit from the Burn so it's not even protecting your own switchins. Its weakness to Stealth Rock often turns "can take a couple hits" into "dies", and since it lacks recovery it can't do much about that. Since it does lack recovery, U-Turning out of it for chipping damage is obnoxiously effective in spite of its resistance (Hawlucha removing less than 10% still adds up, especially in conjunction with the 25% from Stealth Rock), and its ability to run Extreme Speed without a problem has depressingly little payoff.

As for the moves on Genesect, those are all moves I've actually seen Genesect run. I'm not even naming Bug Buzz or Extreme Speed or Dark Pulse because those I've never seen Genesect run. I've also seen Thunder Wave on Genesect, which can be infuriating in terms of allowing it to cripple a switchin and then bring in -manual switch or U-Turn, whatever- something that would normally fear said switchin only you're Paralyzed. I've seen an enormous variety in Genesect, with only Shift Gear+Iron Head being nearly universal on the sets, and with every example bringing value to the table. (eg Thunderbolt and Energy Ball being used for those Water types who otherwise tend to wall Genesect)

 

[canno]

I would argue that TBolt / Energy Ball isn't a random coverage move, as it does hit bulky Water-types that would otherwise block your Iron Heads (TBolt hits a lot more, but Energy Ball covers Water / Ground types and bulky Grounds in general if you're not running Ice Beam). Remember that SG doesn't have to run just physical moves - hell I think the only physical coverage moves that are viable are Iron Head (best STAB), Blaze Kick (competes with Flamethrower because its stronger pre-boost and 100% accurate but Blaze Kick is probably overall better), and Gunk Shot (mostly useless, but has a small niche of hitting shit like Entei for strong neutral damage). I think the standard set will probably be something like Shift Gear / Iron Head / Thunderbolt or Energy Ball / Blaze Kick or Ice Beam. Of course, Genesect has a wide movepool so there's going to be a lot of derivatives from this (Gunk Shot, ESpeed, Bug Buzz, and even something like Explosion are examples)

The main issue that Genesect, imho, is that while its coverage is insane it's mostly unboosted. No STAB, No +1 from Download, No way to boost SpA (which is where most of its good coverage comes from), and no item to boost its power. The only relevant coverage moves that are boosted by Shift Gear are Blaze Kick and Gunk Shot (very niche), meaning Genesect has to get SE damage in order for these moves to do meaningful damage, making Fire-types good at checking it. You can't even run Hidden Power Ground or Douse Plate Techno Blast (ik it wasn't a thing in OU but I can dream ;;) like it could in OU pre-ban since Hidden Power is locked into Fighting now and there are no items.

Again, it might need to be looked at again at large since it can pick and choose what counters it to an extent, but I don't think its unbearable broken - just very good.

 

[deech]

yayyyy. i ended up being #1 and #3 on the ladder
love this meta
hope it comes back at a future date