More proposals with the way an analysis is shown

Colonel M

Team Yuri
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#1
We were discussing a lot of things the other night about the way the analyses look like. So far, it seems that some people are liking the truncated paragraph idea; however, others have suggested that we try doing more with the Project "while we're at it". This isn't really a big deal, in my opinion, but in here I am going to present what we thought of the other night and hear some thoughts from it in here.

1) Merging EV and Other Option section

From Ashley:
I would prefer to collaborate both the "Other Options" and "EVs" sections into an "Optional Changes"-esque section. I would like to keep a secluded place where we can still talk about any other EV spreads, because there are definitely cases where a Pokemon can run many, many EV spreads for a single set (Blissey, for example), and it gets annoying repeating it over and over for every Set Comments part. I think we need to keep a place to talk about this and other issues concerning natures and what not. (I think this section would be better for talking about things like Adamant vs. Jolly Dugtrio.)
2) Moving "Opinion" to the top and renaming the section "Overview"

Obi hindsighted this idea to us, and this also felt like a good thing to change. One thing that is for certain: the Opinion section explains the Pokemon briefly on its capabilities and / or strengths. It is, however, near the very bottom of the analysis which can lead a person to be mislead if they read the SET COMMENTS of another set and think "hey Farfetch'd doesn't sound that bad. The person who wrote this had some decent comments with it", for example. I think this is also a good idea and is not very difficult to implement either.

There is likely more to come within the future, but for now this is the information that we agreed on at the moment. Everyone has a right to sound off on their opinions on it, but these seem easy to adjust and can even be done while Project: Concise is going underway.
 

eric the espeon

maybe I just misunderstood
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#2
Fully agreeing with both, with the length of analysis fitting an explanation of EVs into the SCs is pretty easy and renders the EVs section redundant. Opinion is a misleading term for it's section, Overview is much better.
 

Xia

On porpoise
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#5
As I stated on irc, I can't really see a reason why this change shouldn't be implemented. The EVs section generalizes a lot of what is already mentioned in the set comments, and moving "overview" to the top will help new battlers understand how a Pokemon is used without having to read through the entire analysis to get to this section.
 

franky

aka pimpdaddyfranky, aka frankydelaghetto, aka F, aka ef
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#7
We should just keep it the way it is. The EV section might be a bit redundant but its a nice location for players to look at what EVs to run or what "other option" EVs to run if you feel like outpacing a certain Pokemon or 2HKOing a certain Pokemon, etc. I know I wouldn't waste my team looking in the set comments, I would go straight to the EV section.
 
#8
The EV section is just a good place to find a "general" EV spread for the Pokemon. Aside from that, it's basically repeating the exact same information that you can find in the SET COMMENTS of the set you're looking at. You can even mention in the SET COMMENTS what EV spreads work instead of scrolling all the way down and looking for it. The EV section isn't the most detailed of places anyway, so I don't really see the point of it.

Supporting this.
 
#9
I would prefer to collaborate both the "Other Options" and "EVs" sections into an "Optional Changes"-esque section. I would like to keep a secluded place where we can still talk about any other EV spreads, because there are definitely cases where a Pokemon can run many, many EV spreads for a single set (Blissey, for example), and it gets annoying repeating it over and over for every Set Comments part. I think we need to keep a place to talk about this and other issues concerning natures and what not. (I think this section would be better for talking about things like Adamant vs. Jolly Dugtrio.)

I like the idea of point 2, but I would warn that it definitely should not become an essay like most things in C&C seem to be becoming nowadays. I think the mentioned section, if changed, should stay short to actually give a short overview and not an essay. I know you weren't aiming or hoping for this anyway, but it is something we should almost certainly keep an eye on due to the oddly long length of analyses now.
 
#10
Myself, I don't see why we use different sections (Team Options, EVs etc). If you look at most of the analyses leaving C&C of late you see most of this merged into the set comments anyway. A lot of the stuff in these sections is pointless repetition and clutter to be honest, in the case of EVs/alternative spreads I believe you could list them in set comments also. If anything, I belive the "Other Options" should be merged with set comments as it is the only thing that isn't really listed for each set. This could be useful in a way, listing support options on support sets and offensive options for attacking sets will make it easier to identify what these options are used for.

If you think this makes it unreadable or too long etc each set of "set comments" could have smaller subtitles to label these sections or something.

Some of this is probably a bit irrelevant (and probably a bit of a drastic change) but I would like to share my opinion on the whole structure of analyses.

As for the opinion section, I believe this should be the only section as an overall "sum up" of a Pokemon's abilites after all set comments have been shown.
 

Great Sage

Banned deucer.
#11
I support killing off the EVs section; I've never viewed it as useful when the EVs are discussed in the set comments anyways. It'll involve a lot of long, boring grunt work to remove it and making sure no information is lost in the process, but it's not like we have a shortage of cheap labor now.
 

darkie

just remember no caps when you spell the mans name
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#12
I'm fine with both, but twashley's idea of merging the two optional sections seems attractive as well.
 
#13
I agree with the second proposal, but I actually think EVs should remain a separate section, whether as [EVs] or Ashley's [Optional Changes]. I look at that section when I'm trying to make an EV spread for a modified set and I want to know some speed tiers for that Pokemon or how many Attack EVs it needs to get important KOs (etc). Yeah, all the information is available in the rest of the analysis, but a separate section combines all of it in a centralized location which means means I don't have to press "more" on 5+ sets and try to find where each mentions EVs. Since lots of Pokemon have varied EVs for different sets, this is an easy way to compare the differences and find what EVs are best for the set I want to use.
 

Colonel M

Team Yuri
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#14
I'm fine with both, but twashley's idea of merging the two optional sections seems attractive as well.
That could also work for proposal one IMO since EV section feels like "Other Options" but instead of moves it's spreads.

EDIT: I'm going to adopt Ashley's idea. I like that actually.
 
#15
I agree with the second proposal, but I actually think EVs should remain a separate section, whether as [EVs] or Ashley's [Optional Changes]. I look at that section when I'm trying to make an EV spread for a modified set and I want to know some speed tiers for that Pokemon or how many Attack EVs it needs to get important KOs (etc). Yeah, all the information is available in the rest of the analysis, but a separate section combines all of it in a centralized location which means means I don't have to press "more" on 5+ sets and try to find where each mentions EVs. Since lots of Pokemon have varied EVs for different sets, this is an easy way to compare the differences and find what EVs are best for the set I want to use.
Ashley's Optional Changes would (hopefully) include the speed tiers and any other optional EV numbers that would net certain KOs or certain survival rates from opposing Pokemon attacks. The main EV sets don't need to have a whole EV section to them; it doesn't take long to skim through an analysis and find the relevant info needed for EV allocation. If the modified set would have the same EVs as one of the other sets, chances are it would perform quite similar to that set (and in which case reading that analysis would be beneficial to the read). I'm in support of these Optional Changes.

I'm also in support of the #2 proposal (analyses need an introduction).
 

david stone

Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming.
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#16
One of the benefits of having one section for optional changes, rather than one for EVs and one for moves, is that if all the EVs have already been explained, you aren't compelled to rewrite all of that in the EVs section. This is just a way to re-organize, it's not removing or adding new information.

I also see no reason for this to be in this forum. C&C seems like the better place for it.
 

Colonel M

Team Yuri
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#18
Sorry, I just wanted to make sure that I didn't have issues with the admins and co.

Alright, I'd like to hear EVERYONE'S opinion on this now.
 
#19
Agree with both Optional Changes section and Opinion to the top. It seems a good idea to not have a section solely on EVs as not much usually goes here, it's usually just repetition of what's been said in each set, and for the second one an overview certainly seems like a good idea so people have a general idea about the Pokemon before they start reading the analysis because at the moment there is a chance that some people may not read the whole analysis and get down to the Opinion part due to the length of many analyses.
 
#21
I agree with 1 (put Other Options and EVs together near the bottom), but on opinions... I'd have to see how'd it'd be done. Would we just keep the old opinions sections?

If we do, keep it where they are at the moment. If not and they become shorter, I'm all in for putting them on top, as it could help to find out what that Pokemon's standard role in a team would be.
 

Theorymon

Let's a do the truffle shuffle!
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#22
About the Overveiws. If these replace the opinions, I think they may need to be revamped due to being used as "introductions". In fact, the overviews idea sounds much like this old suggestion from Tangerine and aldaron. I'm not sure if thats the guideline we should follow, but I don't think just moving the opinion's to the top will be a good idea without revamping them.
 

eric the espeon

maybe I just misunderstood
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#23
After talking to a few people on #C&C, I think we need a bit more clarity on the EV/OC merge. The way I see it OC should now include all alternate spreads (bar ones which are significant enough to be mentioned in SC or AC), and not have any explanation of why listed spreads are chosen. This explanation of why the standard spreads are chosen should be in AC or possibly SC in certain analyses.

I'm also not too keen on these changes being listed in this thread as "UPDATE: NEW STUFF FOR FUN!" and "This isn't really a big deal, in my opinion, but in here I am going to present what we thought of the other night and hear some thoughts from it in here.", if the format has changed then new analyses should all follow it without exception. The EV/OC merge in particular is really quite simple with this format, it should only take a few minutes and nothing extra needs to be written (unless the original was missing information or otherwise flawed of course).
 
#24
It'll involve a lot of long, boring grunt work to remove it and making sure no information is lost in the process, but it's not like we have a shortage of cheap labor now.
Glad to know we're appreciated...

On topic: I agree with both ideas. Moving the opinion to the topic is especially important, as it helps new users differentiate between seemingly similar Pokemon.