All Gens Most Dominant Pokemon in History II

[Mr.E]

zam is absolutely not top 4 in rby. probably #5 - still not close to top 4.

top 4 in rby is exactly what jorgen said (i disagree on internal ordering but eh) and it is literally indisputable.

Chansey can take STAB special attacks and non-STAB physical attacks; Zam can't. Also, both need to be paralysed to wall Ice-equipped opponents in the long run; Chansey is less easily exploited with double-switches than a paralysed Zam and gets more non-Recover moves off, as Zam needs to maintain 81%+ to avoid the guaranteed Tauros Hyper Beam OHKO while Chansey only needs 63%. As such Zam's rather unwieldy whereas Chansey has more room to manoeuvre.

Snorlax has far more offensive utility and even probably more defensive utility than Zam, thanks to hitting on the physical side and having Selfdestruct. And TankLax basically IS ReflectZam except it's better. No clue what you're on about here.

Chansey is a little more tanky but Zam is plenty hardy enough. Even Jynx can barely 3HKO Zam with Blizzard, which is about the only special attack Zam gives even a remote shit about because it resists Psychic and nothing else is STAB (the odd Hydro Pump Starmie?). It also outspeeds everything, so even if it's low it gets a chance to Recover. The physical thresholds are a little more dire for Zam but when it comes to crunch time and Tauros can no longer avoid putting itself in harm's way, Zam still beats it straight-up half the time. Chansey just paralyzes it and gets fucked.

Zam is the best duelist in OU, it's the fastest [common] mon in OU, it's pretty much the only mon that can absorb sleep and have a decent shot at ever actually waking up. What's Chansey? An annoying blob that cockblocks Starmie. It paralyzes Zam oftentimes too but only because Zam can beat it 1v1 and Zam is less crippled by the status than Tauros and company (because Zam owns every special attacker and has Recover).

Snorlax is kinda way different but honestly I don't know why everyone but me loves the shit out of it in RBY. Maybe because you're all in love with Chansey too and Snorlax is the natural hard counter to her. Zam is absolutely, 100% better than Chansey though, it was Snorlax that had me add the "probably."

 

[magic9mushroom]

Chansey is a little more tanky but Zam is plenty hardy enough. Even Jynx can barely 3HKO Zam with Blizzard, which is about the only special attack Zam gives even a remote shit about because it resists Psychic and nothing else is STAB (the odd Hydro Pump Starmie?). It also outspeeds everything, so even if it's low it gets a chance to Recover.

2 cases:

1) Zam isn't paralysed. Being 3HKOed by Blizzard is Really Bad News for an unparalysed, non-Ice Ice counter, because it means you're going to have to be spamming Recover to keep up and you're very likely to get frozen.

2) Zam is paralysed. Now it doesn't outspeed everything, and does not want to be switching into STAB Blizzards from unparalysed users either.

Oh, and Cloyster's Clamp is also STAB. So is Zapdos' Thunderbolt.

The physical thresholds are a little more dire for Zam but when it comes to crunch time and Tauros can no longer avoid putting itself in harm's way, Zam still beats it straight-up half the time. Chansey just paralyzes it and gets fucked.

A paralysed Zam at 81% health is forced out by the guarantee of STAB Hyper Beam OHKO. If you're trying to use Zam as Chansey then it is going to get paralysed and it is going to get chipped (a single Starmie Blizzard drops it below 81%).

A paralysed Chansey at 81% health can still paralyse Tauros over half the time, as it cannot be OHKOed by a non-critical Hyper Beam. As such, Chansey has a greater margin of safety against Tauros/Snorlax double-switches.

(Also, an unparalysed Chansey actually can beat Tauros some of the time.)

Zam is the best duelist in OU, it's the fastest [common] mon in OU, it's pretty much the only mon that can absorb sleep and have a decent shot at ever actually waking up.

Gengar and Chansey have a decent shot, and so does Starmie in some cases.

What's Chansey? An annoying blob that cockblocks Starmie. It paralyzes Zam oftentimes too but only because Zam can beat it 1v1 and Zam is less crippled by the status than Tauros and company (because Zam owns every special attacker and has Recover).

Zam doesn't own every special attacker. There are several which it can't wall if paralysed (Zapdos, the Ices) as well as one which hardwalls and obliterates Zam but can't switch into standard Chansey and has a 50/50 1v1 (Slowbro). Chansey can wall all the Ices while paralysed, and puts up a better fight against Zapdos as well since it can actually switch into Thunderbolt.

Fresh Zam vs. fresh Chansey's not exactly a perfect matchup for Zam, either; if it goes for Psychic it risks running out of PP (particularly if Chansey has a partner to relieve Special falls) and if it goes for SToss/PP stall it'll get frozen.

Snorlax is kinda way different but honestly I don't know why everyone but me loves the shit out of it in RBY. Maybe because you're all in love with Chansey too and Snorlax is the natural hard counter to her. Zam is absolutely, 100% better than Chansey though, it was Snorlax that had me add the "probably."

It's a check to loleverything because no big weaknesses, no walls, and STAB Selfdestruct. Or it can do a billion other things, like instantly win 25% of matches by going TankLax.

 

[Mr.E]

It's RBY, everything gets paralyzed unless you either go out of your way to protect it (like most do with Tauros) or Golem/Rhydon don't get Body Slam procced. Zam and Starmie get paralyzed a lot because while they're fast, they also have Recover. Starmie has better all-around bulk but Zam takes a pittance from special attacks in general and its Speed is still plenty important since there are plenty of PAR vs PAR matchups to go around. Chansey, of course, is already slower than most stuff.

Much of RBY involves jockeying for position with PAR Chansey / Zam / Starmie trying to protect Tauros (and/or Persian) from status until the perfect opportunity arises or you have no choice because too much shit dies. Zam's the top of that unholy pyramid of recovery users since it can beat them 1v1 if it must. Psychic PP becomes a problem eventually if you haven't broken the opposition by that point, of course, but that's still better than being on the other end where you simply don't win. (Chansey and Starmie don't even beat Zam in a PP war. Surf + Tbolt Starmie has the same PP total though.) I don't think the fact there's a ~15% health window in which Chansey is safer than PAR Zam against un-PAR Tauros is a big deal, especially since Zam has the much bigger advantage of going 50/50 with Tauros 1v1 when neither/both are PAR and Tauros generally wants to switch into it less (because, unlike Chansey's 308 non-STAB Boltbeam, Zam's 368 STAB Psychic fucking hurts).

Zapdos is more of a bother because of Drill Peck anyway, to both Zam and Chansey, not because it can maybe or maybe not 3HKO Zam with Tbolt. Neither it nor Jynx will avoid paralysis for long though; at least Gengar is immune to Body Slam.

 

[Yellow Cheese]

Just going to use this List as a basis for my Personal ranking (which is questionable ofc since I was shit at DPP suring its run and have only 200 battles in gen 1-3 OU) Bolding changes

If being dominant is worth three times as much as just being OU, and all other states being worth close to zero, we get:

10: Tyranitar (3 dominant, 1 OU, 1 non-existent)

~8: Snorlax (1 super-dominant, 1 dominant, 2 OU, 1 unused)

7: Jirachi (2 dominant, 1 OU, 2 non-existent)
Gengar/Starmie (1 dominant, 4 OU)

6: Zapdos (1 dominant, 3 OU, 1 unused)
Exeggutor (2 dominant, 1 BL, 2 unused) Amazing mon in both RBY and GSC, Fits to Dominant on both IMO

5: Celebi (1 dominant, 2 OU, 1 banned, 1 non-existent)
Suicune (1 dominant, 2 OU, 1 non-existent, 1 unused)
Metagross (1 dominant, 2 OU, 2 non-existent) Jesus this thing was good in ADV and fucking everywhere, IMO Dominant

4: Heatran/Rotom-A (1 dominant, 1 OU, 3 non-existent)
Raikou (1 dominant, 1 OU, 1 BL, 1 unused, 1 non-existent)
Jolteon (4 OU, 1 BL)
Blissey/Forretress/Skarmory (4 OU, 1 non-existent)
Cloyster (4 OU, 1 unused)

3: Chansey (1 dominant, 3 BL, 1 unused)
Garchomp (1 dominant, 1 banned, 3 non-existent)
Keldeo (1 dominant, 4 non-existent)
Politoed (1 dominant, 3 unused, 1 non-existent)
Tauros (1 dominant, 1 BL, 3 unused)
Dragonite (3 OU, 2 BL)
Gyarados/Vaporeon (3 OU, 2 unused)

EDIT: Hide folders was a terrible idea

 

[magic9mushroom]

Egg in GSC's Cloy/Skarm level. Important, but not dominant. It's nowhere near as good as in RBY since it can't eat special attacks all day, it's no longer so vital for sleep, and Bug attacks actually exist.

Zam's the top of that unholy pyramid of recovery users since it can beat them 1v1 if it must. Psychic PP becomes a problem eventually if you haven't broken the opposition by that point, of course, but that's still better than being on the other end where you simply don't win. (Chansey and Starmie don't even beat Zam in a PP war. Surf + Tbolt Starmie has the same PP total though.)

Please don't tell me I'm going to have to do another bloody Markov chain, and this time with TWO recovery users. Pretty please.

(Or you could just take my word for it that Chansey/Starmie have like a 30% chance to win in that matchup, and win with an effective KO rather than just force it out for 1 turn and deal 15% damage to Egg.)

I don't think the fact there's a ~15% health window in which Chansey is safer than PAR Zam against un-PAR Tauros is a big deal, especially since Zam has the much bigger advantage of going 50/50 with Tauros 1v1 when neither/both are PAR and Tauros generally wants to switch into it less (because, unlike Chansey's 308 non-STAB Boltbeam, Zam's 368 STAB Psychic fucking hurts).

But the threat of Tauros is almost never from it switching in, it's from double-switches. If you are trying to use Alakazam to fill Chansey's shoes, you WILL end up with chipped PAR Zam vs. unPAR Tauros. And then you die. Chansey, on the other hand, can do its walling job while staying out of Hyper Beam range. It's a significant difference.

Zapdos is more of a bother because of Drill Peck anyway, to both Zam and Chansey, not because it can maybe or maybe not 3HKO Zam with Tbolt. Neither it nor Jynx will avoid paralysis for long though; at least Gengar is immune to Body Slam.

Chansey isn't always 3HKOed by Drill Peck. Zam is almost 2HKOed (ie, it can't make headway with Recover vs. Drill Peck unless Reflect and even then crit KOs if not at full health). Also, Chansey can switch into Thunderbolt, whereas Zam doesn't want to because a crit will put it in Drill Peck range.

 

[Disaster Area]

on the note of markov chains, I've got another request (but it should be much simpler than markov chain need), working out what's the best strategy for kingler vs tauros from kingler's view, both at max hp and unpara'd (crabhammer is 22% to 2HKO, but you could paraslam, critslam, critbeam, and be para'd in return), so I wanna know if there's anything with a better chance of guaranteeing tauros goes down before kingler :)

 

[magic9mushroom]

I have at least two other RBY things I was doing that are more important (full matchup chart of all 19 OU contenders, proof to Golden Gyarados that Confuse Ray sucks) and which I've neglected to finish. If I get them done I might do this later.

 

[Disaster Area]

that's cool, can't deny my request is pretty minor at least at highest level (reasonably important to know if you are running kingler, but that's more a friendlies thing anyway) ^-^

nothing to add with respect to people's lists apart from those big 4 are the big 4 in RBY and zam does not belong anywhere near it, and I feel m9m's done a fantastic job of justifying why.

 

[Mr.E]

Doesn't belong anywhere near it? He straight-up admitted that Zam beats everything. ;/ At the cost of being more vulnerable to double switches after being paralyzed I guess.

Also I want to see how he "proves" Confuse Ray sucks. I hope it's not the same way that GSC Machamp should use Double-Edge.

 

[magic9mushroom]

Doesn't belong anywhere near it? He straight-up admitted that Zam beats everything. ;/ At the cost of being more vulnerable to double switches after being paralyzed I guess.

I didn't say that in this thread. I don't think I've said it anywhere about any Zam besides ReflectZam (and standard Slowbro beats that, too). Snorlax straight-up beats Toss Zam, Egg guarantees a tie, and Jynx has a pretty good shot (as does Zapdos IIRC). Or Chansey Twave + chip it until it Recovers + Tauros/Rhydon/Golem.

Also I want to see how he "proves" Confuse Ray sucks. I hope it's not the same way that GSC Machamp should use Double-Edge.

Kindly don't impute to me any actual preference for that set. I said that according to one specific measure, that set ranks highest. Which it does.

I was specifically out to prove to GG that Confuse Ray sucks when used over Explosion on Gengar. It's okay in certain other contexts; it's competitive with Hyper Beam and Sing on Lapras, and there's some small argument for using it over coverage on Gengar. Just not over Explosion.

 

[Slobroking]

Necrobump ~_~

I thought it would be neat to redo the ranking with gen 6, using a point system based on usage stats across generations:

http://www.smogon.com/stats/2016-02/gen1ou-1760.txt
http://www.smogon.com/stats/2016-02/gen2ou-1760.txt
http://www.smogon.com/stats/2016-02/gen3ou-1760.txt
http://www.smogon.com/stats/2016-02/gen4ou-1760.txt
http://www.smogon.com/stats/2016-02/gen5ou-1760.txt
http://www.smogon.com/stats/2016-02/ou-1825.txt

Each pokemon gets points based on its usage in each generation. The mons are ranked based on their cumulative points across all generations

The older the generation, the more centralized the meta is due to there being less mons, so I tried to adjust accordingly (otherwise Tauros would've been top 10 just based on its RBY usage alone)..

Anyway, these were the results:

1 Tyranitar (97.88 points)
2 Skarmory (77.33 points)
3 Starmie (68.86 points)
4 Snorlax (66.56 points)
5 Zapdos (63.49 points)
6 Jirachi (57.89 points)
7 Heatran (54.79 points)
8 Gengar (52.63 points)
9 Landorus-Therian (45.56 points)
10 Ferrothorn (42.54 points)

11-50

11 Exeggutor (38.71 points)
12 Garchomp (37.91 points)
13 Dragonite (37.00 points)
14 Blissey (36.74 points)
15 Chansey (34.78 points)
16 Scizor (34.28 points)
17 Keldeo (33.80 points)
18 Rotom-Wash (31.73 points)
19 Cloyster (29.79 points)
20 Latios (29.18 points)
21 Flygon (28.65 points)
22 Swampert (28.42 points)
23 Excadrill (27.30 points)
24 Gyarados (26.50 points)
25 Breloom (25.86 points)
26 Celebi (25.41 points)
27 Metagross (25.38 points)
28 Alakazam (25.01 points)
29 Tauros (22.32 points)
30 Clefable (22.12 points)
31 Suicune (21.14 points)
32 Vaporeon (21.05 points)
33 Politoed (20.15 points)
34 Steelix (19.75 points)
35 Machamp (19.28 points)
36 Talonflame (19.10 points)
37 Infernape (18.73 points)
38 Azelf (18.62 points)
39 Gliscor (17.59 points)
40 Magnezone (15.87 points)
41 Salamence (15.67 points)
42 Raikou (15.20 points)
43 Hippowdon (14.58 points)
44 Kyurem-Black (13.24 points)
45 Jellicent (13.03 points)
46 Forretress (12.99 points)
47 Bisharp (12.87 points)
48 Slowbro (12.75 points)
49 Azumarill (12.19 points)
50 Tornadus-Therian (12.00 points)

 

[Borat]

you can "quantify" dominance a bit by the usage difference between #1 and #2, #2 and #3, and so on. suddenly tauros's 96% compared to the 90 and 84 of #2 and #3 isnt so standout.

 

[Slobroking]

you can "quantify" dominance a bit by the usage difference between #1 and #2, #2 and #3, and so on. suddenly tauros's 96% compared to the 90 and 84 of #2 and #3 isnt so standout.

I sort of did something like this in my previous post by adjusting (weighing down) older generations but what you say is a way better idea actually

I gave the #2 most used pokemon of each generation 100 points by default, and then give points to the remaining pokemon, relative to their usage compared to the #2 pokemon.

So for example Chansey in Gen 1 gets 100 points, Tauros then gets 106.53 points, Exeggutor then gets 93.59 points. For Gen 2, Zapdos gets 100 points, Snorlax then gets 138.42 points, Cloyster then gets 94.42 points, and so on.

The result:

Rank Pokémon Points Rank Gen 1/2/3/4/5/6
1 Tyranitar (413.47 points) [--/#9/#1/#2/#2/#11]
2 Skarmory (320.67 points) [--/#7/#3/#18/#6/#9]
3 Starmie (292.46 points) [#8/#11/#13/#4/#9/#17]
4 Snorlax (257.17 points) [#4/#1/#11/#45/#111/#137]
5 Zapdos (249.12 points) [#9/#2/#7/#15/#44/#53]
6 Jirachi (246.35 points) [--/--/#9/#1/#12/#23]
7 Heatran (234.69 points) [--/--/--/#3/#13/#2]
8 Gengar (223.78 points) [#12/#13/#2/#14/#28/#34]
9 Landorus-Therian (200.43 points) [--/--/--/--/#7/#1]
10 Ferrothorn (187.56 points) [--/--/--/--/#1/#8]

11-50

11 Garchomp (166.90 points) [--/--/--/--/#4/#4]
12 Chansey (161.59 points) [#2/#88/#120/#137/#30/#20]
13 Exeggutor (159.62 points) [#3/#4/#40/#135/#243/#225]
14 Dragonite (157.18 points) [#16/#31/#48/#6/#17/#18]
15 Blissey (153.38 points) [--/#12/#4/#22/#24/#73]
16 Keldeo (148.78 points) [--/--/--/--/#10/#5]
17 Scizor (146.17 points) [--/#32/#41/#9/#8/#44]
18 Rotom-Wash (136.20 points) [--/--/--/#12/#18/#10]
19 Latios (128.56 points) [--/--/--/--/#5/#13]
20 Swampert (120.74 points) [--/--/#5/#11/#62/#171]
21 Excadrill (119.95 points) [--/--/--/--/#22/#3]
22 Flygon (119.92 points) [--/--/#12/#5/#186/#223]
23 Alakazam (112.81 points) [#5/#27/#56/#73/#14/#67]
24 Gyarados (111.54 points) [#24/#87/#21/#7/#25/#86]
25 Breloom (109.63 points) [--/--/#46/#10/#29/#26]
26 Celebi (109.15 points) [--/--/#10/#21/#31/#55]
27 Metagross (108.48 points) [--/--/#6/#19/#66/#87]
28 Tauros (107.32 points) [#1/#61/#67/#150/#401/#205]
29 Cloyster (103.67 points) [#17/#3/#32/#93/#98/#147]
30 Clefable (95.55 points) [#35/#30/#55/#36/#129/#7]
31 Politoed (88.94 points) [--/#56/#132/#196/#3/#76]
32 Suicune (87.23 points) [--/#20/#17/#16/#155/#62]
33 Talonflame (83.76 points) [--/--/--/--/--/#6]
34 Azelf (78.60 points) [--/--/--/#13/#53/#28]
35 Infernape (77.66 points) [--/--/--/#8/#49/#66]
36 Gliscor (76.79 points) [--/--/--/#32/#15/#41]
37 Vaporeon (74.78 points) [#36/#6/#26/#49/#75/#104]
38 Machamp (72.19 points) [#31/#8/#47/#17/#122/#174]
39 Steelix (69.16 points) [--/#5/#25/#136/#112/#231]
40 Salamence (68.54 points) [--/--/#8/--/#35/#148]
41 Magnezone (68.40 points) [--/--/--/#24/#23/#37]
42 Hippowdon (62.52 points) [--/--/--/#23/#38/#31]
43 Kyurem-Black (58.32 points) [--/--/--/--/#20/#32]
44 Raikou (58.01 points) [--/#10/#29/#48/#80/#40]
45 Jellicent (57.59 points) [--/--/--/--/#11/#140]
46 Slowbro (57.43 points) [#11/#64/#78/#80/#51/#25]
47 Bisharp (56.46 points) [--/--/--/--/#67/#12]
48 Azumarill (53.44 points) [--/#166/#126/#74/#74/#15]
49 Forretress (52.64 points) [--/#16/#19/#33/#48/#106]
50 Tornadus-Therian (52.64 points) [--/--/--/--/--/#14]

 

[Perseu]

Lots of Snorlax fans here, trying to rise snorlax dominance based in a generation that allowed a clear uber in overused tier and made (still making, nowadays) OU nearly unplayable if you dont use it; but lax was only good when fighting moves were almost abscent, period. This is almost like counting pre garchomps ban gen IV; the same here applies to lati@s, who were uber gens 3 and 4, if you consider they are OU in the same ways smogon keeps snorlax in Gen 2, probably you'll have a hell lot more dominance.

I agree in some parts of Slobroking's ranking, history is not only gen I-II. Tar and skarm are good in all generations they existed, and they are not UBERS, different from snorlax, who was uber (not ranked, but we all know this) in gen II, good mon in gen I, III and complete garbage in gen 4 and forwards. And lax will eventually fall a lot more when new generations come, because it will never be a good mon anymore. 4th, in gen 6 is very good to it.

 

[BKC]

snorlax is not anywhere near garbage in gen 4. a few bw sun teams made use of a cb set as well.

 

[Perseu]

I might have been rough in my expression, but you got it.