Most Overrated 4th Gen Pokemon in OU?

[SJCrew]

However, now that I mention slow, Swords Dance Scizor is just bad unless you're lucky.

Glad you brought this up because I was thinking this for about most of Gen 4, even when he was just getting Bullet Punch and no one had time to adapt to him. Most of the metagame resists Bullet Punch and walls for him are a dime a dozen. I only vaguely recall ever getting swept by it a few times, and all of them were kind of embarrassing.

 

[oOsymphonyxOo]

I don't know about anyone else, but I see a reoccurring problem on this thread. It says to name the most overrated OU Pokemon, not trash the pokemon on the lowest rungs of the OU ladder.
In my opinion, Pokemon like Electivire, Weavile, and Ninjask are all in no way overrated. They're 3 of the lowest used Pokemon in OU for a reason; people know they're not that good.
When I think overrated, I think a Pokemon in high usage of the OU tier that don't deserve their spot. The key: HIGH usage of OU. The before mentioned 3 are not of high usage in OU. They can be considered overrated if you look at Pokemon as a whole, but we're looking at OU specifically.

On to my selection:
I think the most overrated Pokemon to OU was Flygon. He was considered crap basically prior to Salamence's banning, only taking spotlight because his superior was removed, and for good reason. He lacks reliability, he's disgustingly frail, and is too predictable. His Ourage is unbearably outclassed by Dragonite's. Sure, 1 on 1 he beats Dragonite simply due to outspeeding it, but Dragonite can boost with Dragon Dance, Flygon cannot. Flygon relies on an obvious Choice Scarf, and if he's going to outrage to take out Nite, he's going to get locked into Outrage vs a steel type a majority of the time. The two solutions are Claw over outrage if your willing to accept two thirds power on an already decent-at-best 100 base attack, or not use scarf to be able to combat his switch in and usually have to 2 hit KO. If you choose the latter, DD Nite will outspeed and kill.

 

[Kisuke]

I don't know about anyone else, but I see a reoccurring problem on this thread. It says to name the most overrated OU Pokemon, not trash the pokemon on the lowest rungs of the OU ladder.
In my opinion, Pokemon like Electivire, Weavile, and Ninjask are all in no way overrated. They're 3 of the lowest used Pokemon in OU for a reason; people know they're not that good.
When I think overrated, I think a Pokemon in high usage of the OU tier that don't deserve their spot. The key: HIGH usage of OU. The before mentioned 3 are not of high usage in OU. They can be considered overrated if you look at Pokemon as a whole, but we're looking at OU specifically.

On to my selection:
I think the most overrated Pokemon to OU was Flygon. He was considered crap basically prior to Salamence's banning, only taking spotlight because his superior was removed, and for good reason. He lacks reliability, he's disgustingly frail, and is too predictable. His Ourage is unbearably outclassed by Dragonite's. Sure, 1 on 1 he beats Dragonite simply due to outspeeding it, but Dragonite can boost with Dragon Dance, Flygon cannot. Flygon relies on an obvious Choice Scarf, and if he's going to outrage to take out Nite, he's going to get locked into Outrage vs a steel type a majority of the time. The two solutions are Claw over outrage if your willing to accept two thirds power on an already decent-at-best 100 base attack, or not use scarf to be able to combat his switch in and usually have to 2 hit KO. If you choose the latter, DD Nite will outspeed and kill.

I kinda see what you're saying, but ever since Mence was banned Flygon has been a key member on a lot of teams.

 

[Pancham]

Scizor is definitely not overrated. He was used so much with great reason. He was a near perfect Salamence/Latias check, while also being one of the biggest threats of the metagame(s). His Bullet Punch hit every pokemon, regardless of typing or ability, unlike other priority like Mach Punch and Quick Attack, while getting Tech boosted at 135 base Atk. His U-turn was the strongest of the OU metagame, and he forced enough switches to be able to use appropriately.

In my time playing the OU metagame, I'd say the most overrate dpokemon the entirety of gen. 4 was Gengar. Like our friend SJCrew said, Gengar needed Sub up at every moment in order to do his job appropriately. Sure, he had a great movepool and set(s), but his downfall was, nevertheless, the pokemon he was trying to relieve himself of, Scizor (and Tyranitar).

Also, I would like to point something out.

I still wonder how Electivire, Weavile and Ninjask were OU at the end of gen 4. None of them are any good for different reasons which I'm sure have been mentioned several times, so I won't do it again.

I'm definitely going to have to say Gyarados too. Sure it can DD, but it's a shit DDer. It's too slow and not quite powerful enough, andI'd rather use Dragonite every time. Its ResTalk set is pretty good but other than that it's fucking horrible.

Incase you were too stubborn to check, Gyarados is faster than Dragonite while only having 9 points of base Atk less. Instead of explaining (in the worst way possible) how bad Gyarados is at being a Dragon Dancer, perhaps you can explain why Dragonite is instead? That seems reasonable.

 

[Vp-Grim]

Not too sure if people will agree, but these are the pokemon I think were the most over-rated. I won't share my thoughts, because I don't think I am intelligent enough to make a good explanation.

Hide

Gyarados

Salamence

Breloom

Vaporeon

Bronzong

Gengar

Blissey

Metagross

Flygon

Ninjask

 

[smashlloyd20]

Don't say something if you can't back it up.

 

[VaporeonIce]

On to my selection:
I think the most overrated Pokemon to OU was Flygon. He was considered crap basically prior to Salamence's banning, only taking spotlight because his superior was removed, and for good reason. He lacks reliability, he's disgustingly frail, and is too predictable. His Ourage is unbearably outclassed by Dragonite's. Sure, 1 on 1 he beats Dragonite simply due to outspeeding it, but Dragonite can boost with Dragon Dance, Flygon cannot. Flygon relies on an obvious Choice Scarf, and if he's going to outrage to take out Nite, he's going to get locked into Outrage vs a steel type a majority of the time. The two solutions are Claw over outrage if your willing to accept two thirds power on an already decent-at-best 100 base attack, or not use scarf to be able to combat his switch in and usually have to 2 hit KO. If you choose the latter, DD Nite will outspeed and kill.

Flygon was basically glue. It's insanely predictable, but if it does its job well, it doesn't matter too much. What's important about Flygon are its typing, its ability, and its non-horrible bulk (it's certainly not good by any means). It comes in on one of its common resistances or immunities (Rock, Ground, Electric, Fire...not many, but the EQ immunity with a Stone Edge resistance is very helpful), taking no damage from Spikes or Toxic Spikes, and resisting Stealth Rock. From there, he's either a threat to the opponent or he's not (and he's usually not, unless the opponent is pretty worn down). But with base 100 speed and a Choice Scarf, you know he's probably going to use U-Turn, meaning whether you switch or stay in, your opponent will probably end the turn with a counter to whatever Pokemon you have out. True, U-Turn will do pretty lame damage, but it's the end result that matters. On top of that, Flygon can use his amazing STABs to finish off a weakened (...possibly VERY weakened) team, which only becomes easier given his awesome speed with a Choice Scarf. So early in the game, Flygon should really only be using U-Turn (locking yourself into a relatively weak CB Earthquake or Outrage is asking for death). But he can switch in, work as a pivot, and give you momentum, and he can help clean up in the endgame. People actually started using him once Salamence was banned because 1) Flygon doesn't work well with Salamence at all, since you can't exactly pull off a double-dragon sweep when one of your two dragons is kinda weak, and 2) no one wants to have Flygon on their side when a Dragon Danced Salamence is rampaging through your team with Outrage, since even a Choice Scarf leaves you stuck with a speed tie.

Flygon is not a powerhouse, but it patches up holes in a team, and it has JUST enough power and coverage to be useful for something other than spamming U-Turn.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

I agree with above, predictability doesn't matter when you do your job extremely weel and his excellent set of immunities/resistances allow him to pivot for your team very easily. No 4th Gen team I've made in the last 2 months has worked better without Flygon than one with it.

 

[More Cowbell]

I don't think Flygon was overrated. Though it was often not strong enough, it still was quite bulky, had good resistances and immunities, and while it was predictable as hell, it got the job done. It was a solid revenge killer, in my opinion one of the best available.

 

[llKll]

HEATRAN!

C'mom people. Only 2 or 3 guys voted this as overhyped.
Yeah, it is is every freaking team, but it doesn't do shit. Gen 4 was dominated by bulky waters, and every one of them laughs at Heatran's face. Besides, 4x weak to EQ brings it to tears. It's so easely countered, c'mon.

The only set I think that can cause trouble to unprepared teams it's the torment/taunt/sub/protect or something like that.

 

[Cooky]

HEATRAN!

C'mom people. Only 2 or 3 guys voted this as overhyped.
Yeah, it is is every freaking team, but it doesn't do shit. Gen 4 was dominated by bulky waters, and every one of them laughs at Heatran's face. Besides, 4x weak to EQ brings it to tears. It's so easely countered, c'mon.

The only set I think that can cause trouble to unprepared teams it's the torment/taunt/sub/protect or something like that.

Way to pluck its "best set" out of your head, and then give it no attacking moves.

Heatran provided a number of key resistances, especially Dragon, alongside reasonable bulk. It's speed meant it could utilise a Choice Scarf effectively and outspeed the entire unboosted metagame. Earthquake can be seen a mile off and provides a free switch in to a Flyer / Levitater, which the OU metagame was filled with. All bulky Waters were dispatched by the Sub LO set with HP Grass, and since when was Gen 4 dominated by bulky Waters anyway?

It was on so many teams because it had a number of viable sets that performed different roles, and was often considered an effective anti-metagame pokemon given that it was a solid switch in to a lot of the top OUs such as Scizor.

 

[2sly4u]

I'm going to go with Tyranitar. Unless you're using it on a dedicated Sandstorm team, there really wasn't a point because Sand Stream was too detrimental to the rest of your team. It has pretty bad synergy with every non-rock/steel/ground not named Cacturne (Sand Stream, not T-tar). It's not so much that T-tar is a bad poke, it's just that Metagross could do basically the same things T-tar could, but had better defensive typing, a solid priority move, and a much, much better ability.

 

[ssbbm]

I'm going to go with Tyranitar. Unless you're using it on a dedicated Sandstorm team, there really wasn't a point because Sand Stream was too detrimental to the rest of your team. It has pretty bad synergy with every non-rock/steel/ground not named Cacturne (Sand Stream, not T-tar). It's not so much that T-tar is a bad poke, it's just that Metagross could do basically the same things T-tar could, but had better defensive typing, a solid priority move, and a much, much better ability.

ScarfTar could revenge basically any non bulky Psychic / Ghost, while stuff like SpDef Tar provided an easy stop to basically any Special Attacker - the SS helped in the way that it provided Tyranitar with an effective 154 base special defense.

Incase you were too stubborn to check, Gyarados is faster than Dragonite while only having 9 points of base Atk less. Instead of explaining (in the worst way possible) how bad Gyarados is at being a Dragon Dancer, perhaps you can explain why Dragonite is instead? That seems reasonable.

Gyarados has to rely on Waterfall, with an effective 120 BP, while Dragonite can use Outrage with an effective 180 BP; effectively, Dragonite it starting out at +1 off the bat with a move with only one resistance - also, the speed difference is useless as there is really nothing significant that Gyarados outspeeds that Dragonite doesn't.

 

[Skwog]

I'm going to go with Tyranitar. Unless you're using it on a dedicated Sandstorm team, there really wasn't a point because Sand Stream was too detrimental to the rest of your team. It has pretty bad synergy with every non-rock/steel/ground not named Cacturne (Sand Stream, not T-tar). It's not so much that T-tar is a bad poke, it's just that Metagross could do basically the same things T-tar could, but had better defensive typing, a solid priority move, and a much, much better ability.

I find two parts of your argument not worthy of an argument.

Firstly:
"It has pretty bad synergy with every non-rock/steel/ground not named Cacturne"

I beg to differ on that. I've found that one of his best partners are bulky grass types, especially Celebi. Despite sharing a common Bug weakness, Celebi can take advantage of the sand to stall out Pokes with its natural bulk, as well as spread paralysis to help out TTar.
Poison Heal Breloom screams to be teamed with TTar too, in my opinion.
Electric types are handy too, notably Zapdos. Zapdos resists quite a few of TTar's weaknesses, and is able to take out waters with its STAB Thunderbolt.

And TTar can pick off some frail Pokes to open up a sweep for one of your Pokes. Gengar, Azelf, Starmie, and the likes can be taken down with Choice Scarf Pursuit/Crunch. Infernape loves for these Pokes to be gone.

Secondly:
" It's not so much that T-tar is a bad poke, it's just that Metagross could do basically the same things T-tar could, but had better defensive typing, a solid priority move, and a much, much better ability."

Comparing TTar to Meta is like comparing peanut butter to jelly. Sure, you stick them both in a sandwhich, but they don't taste the same. They both have high attack stats, but that is where their similarities end in my opinion.
Can Meta put up 101HP subs and do a Boah set? I think not. The best part about TTar is its unpredictability. I love using a Boah set because it catches so many people off guard, and Dark Pulses and Flamethrowers/Ice Beams coming from TTar's respectable Sp. Att stat hurt.

Sure, Metagross has the same Sp. Att stat as TTar, and a higher speed stat, but that does not mean he can pull off a mixed attacking set. TTar has the massive movepool to be able to do this not only effectively, but successfully.

How is Clear Body better than Sand Stream? You are protected from random Intimidates? But who brings in a Gyarados against a Metagross who is likely to be packing Thunderpunch for such the occasion? Sand Stream gives TTar an automatic boost to his special defense, and can turn him into a beastly tank. Plus, the extra heal chipping off of Pokes every turn really helps in the long run.

 

[llKll]

Way to pluck its "best set" out of your head, and then give it no attacking moves.

Heatran provided a number of key resistances, especially Dragon, alongside reasonable bulk. It's speed meant it could utilise a Choice Scarf effectively and outspeed the entire unboosted metagame. Earthquake can be seen a mile off and provides a free switch in to a Flyer / Levitater, which the OU metagame was filled with. All bulky Waters were dispatched by the Sub LO set with HP Grass, and since when was Gen 4 dominated by bulky Waters anyway?

It was on so many teams because it had a number of viable sets that performed different roles, and was often considered an effective anti-metagame pokemon given that it was a solid switch in to a lot of the top OUs such as Scizor.

About the set i plucked from my head.. you should read the very basic smogon's review.

Gen 4 was dominated by bulky water because every team had at least one of them.. Tentacruel, Swampert, Vaporeon, Suicune, def Starmie, Sdef Gyarados or even Empoleon and Kingdra (yes, i named every water poke i remembered from OU, lol).
EQ can be seen a mile away, and so does your switch in.. Decent speed witth a scarf? The majority of OU pokes outspeed the entire unboosted metagme with a scarf... so?

Heatran can check many Top pokes, but it walled by many, many more.

 

[ARandomDude]

Lol@people saying Gyarados. Sure DDGyara has a ton of checks, but it is in no way overrated because its RestTalk set was very very good for checking tons of stuff.

 

[guddagudda]

Not too sure if people will agree, but these are the pokemon I think were the most over-rated. I won't share my thoughts, because I don't think I am intelligent enough to make a good explanation.

Hide

Gyarados

Salamence

Breloom

Vaporeon

Bronzong

Gengar

Blissey

Metagross

Flygon

Ninjask

lmfao, what a post

 

[Narwhals1]

Heatran, definitely.

Seriously guys, this thing is a joke. It has a terrible dual STAB for OU, a pretty meh ability, if you ask me, and a pretty "meh" movepool. People seem to think it can utilize so many awesome sets, but people always back this up with the reason: "He's a Steel-type, and has lots of resistances. Oh, and he can run Choice Scarf, durr hurr."

Seriously?

This thing is a slow little shit. 77 Base Speed? Anything faster than it does BETTER with a Choice Scarf. It's outclassed by Skarmory completely as a lead, stall, and Steel-type. Skamory also has a lot more resistances than Heatran. Oh, it can set up Stealth Rock? So can every second Pokemon in the damned tier.

A torment set? No way! Again, many other Pokemon do this.

Heatran is just a champion in disguise. Everyone thinks it's such a great Pokemon, but it really isn't. It has glaring weaknesses to the metagame's most common types; one being x4. It has the Speed stat comparable to a dead horse, and a movepool that could be so much better, given its stats.

Use it all you want, but everything with Earthquake will still OHKO it. Choice Scarf doesn't let it pack any extra power, and given the sub-par SE coverage, it won't OHKOing too much. Garchomp, Salamence, Hippowdon, Tyranitar, Blissey (Sometimes), Lucario, Swampert, even the odd Breloom... This armored lizard dies to everything.

 

[Boondocker]

Heatran, definitely.

Seriously guys, this thing is a joke. It has a terrible dual STAB for OU, a pretty meh ability, if you ask me, and a pretty "meh" movepool. People seem to think it can utilize so many awesome sets, but people always back this up with the reason: "He's a Steel-type, and has lots of resistances. Oh, and he can run Choice Scarf, durr hurr."

Lots of pokes have poor dual stab but as long as 1 of them is good they usually can do well offensively (see breloom, starmie, GENGAR, or even gyrados. yeah i know flying is good but bounce is not.)

Heatrans ability is anything but "meh", its one of the reasons why he is so great. He is the only pokemon in the GAME to resist the dragon/fire combo and that gives him a greater chance then almost everything to come in safely on dragonite (and formerly salamence).

Seriously?

This thing is a slow little shit. 77 Base Speed? Anything faster than it does BETTER with a Choice Scarf. It's outclassed by Skarmory completely as a lead, stall, and Steel-type. Skamory also has a lot more resistances than Heatran. Oh, it can set up Stealth Rock? So can every second Pokemon in the damned tier.

A torment set? No way! Again, many other Pokemon do this.

Name something else besides heatran that can revenge kill sd luke, sd scizor, adament gyrados, and cm jirachi that isnt massive pursuit bait (looking at you rotom). Name something else that pairs so well with cb scizor. Outcassed by skarmory as a lead? LOLOLOLOLOL. Skarm cant wall azelf, 1hko swampert, machamp, or uhhhhhhh 1HKO SKARM AND FORTERESS LEADS.

Name another poke that can decently run a torment set. Not that thats heatrans best set anyway.

Heatran is just a champion in disguise. Everyone thinks it's such a great Pokemon, but it really isn't. It has glaring weaknesses to the metagame's most common types; one being x4. It has the Speed stat comparable to a dead horse, and a movepool that could be so much better, given its stats.

Use it all you want, but everything with Earthquake will still OHKO it. Choice Scarf doesn't let it pack any extra power, and given the sub-par SE coverage, it won't OHKOing too much. Garchomp, Salamence, Hippowdon, Tyranitar, Blissey (Sometimes), Lucario, Swampert, even the odd Breloom... This armored lizard dies to everything.

He is a champion that has already been discovered. He really is great, just not gamebreaking like a garchomp or something. His 4x weakness can easily be used to your advantage since half of ou is immune to eq. Personally i dislike his fighting weakness more but even thats not too hard to overcome. Its movepool is fine, it can damage anything in the tier (explosion is a great move btw). Do you even play the metagame? Garchomp and salamence are uber. And good luck switching in the others in safely.

 

[Narwhals1]

Lots of pokes have poor dual stab but as long as 1 of them is good they usually can do well offensively (see breloom, starmie, GENGAR, or even gyrados. yeah i know flying is good but bounce is not.)

The only worthwhile type Fire hits is Steel, and Steel has crap coverage all-around.

Heatrans ability is anything but "meh", its one of the reasons why he is so great. He is the only pokemon in the GAME to resist the dragon/fire combo and that gives him a greater chance then almost everything to come in safely on dragonite (and formerly salamence).

It checks, and then what? fails to OHKO Dragonite and Salamence, gets hit in the face with Earthquake, or will switch into a counter. It checks great, but that's as far as it goes, since it can't stay in long.

Name something else besides heatran that can revenge kill sd luke, sd scizor, adament gyrados, and cm jirachi that isnt massive pursuit bait (looking at you rotom). Name something else that pairs so well with cb scizor. Outcassed by skarmory as a lead? LOLOLOLOLOL. Skarm cant wall azelf, 1hko swampert, machamp, or uhhhhhhh 1HKO SKARM AND FORTERESS LEADS.

And without a Choice Scarf, Heatran does none of this. Skarmory can manage at least half of these feats, with a free item slot to boot. OHKO Swampert? Machamp? LOLOLOLOL, now you're really dreaming. Unless it's packing HP (Grass) against Swampert, it's doomed. And by Lead, I meant LEAD, not an anti-lead.

Name another poke that can decently run a torment set. Not that thats heatrans best set anyway.

Okay, true on this part, since Torment is a pretty bland aspect of the metagame anyway, but I could easily say that Crobat does this job better than Heatran. It's way faster, packs some useful resistances, and scouts like a boss.

He is a champion that has already been discovered. He really is great, just not gamebreaking like a garchomp or something. His 4x weakness can easily be used to your advantage since half of ou is immune to eq. Personally i dislike his fighting weakness more but even thats not too hard to overcome. Its movepool is fine, it can damage anything in the tier (explosion is a great move btw). Do you even play the metagame? Garchomp and salamence are uber. And good luck switching in the others in safely.

About a quarter of OU is immuned to Earthquake. It can damage anything in OU for neutral damage, yes, but it needs some Super-effective coverage, as I said. 130 Special Attack is pretty awesome, but it still needs some x2 power to pack a punch, especially when it uses a Scarf over Specs. Switch in on Heatran? It's too busy switching in and out of everything else.

 

[BKC]

The only worthwhile type Fire hits is Steel, and Steel has crap coverage all-around.

I guess all those grass types running around in the current metagame are pretty worthless.
Not to mention hitting steels is a major boon when you have Pokemon like Scizor and Lucario running around.

It checks, and then what? fails to OHKO Dragonite and Salamence, gets hit in the face with Earthquake, or will switch into a counter. It checks great, but that's as far as it goes, since it can't stay in long.

Being able to kill or not kill Mence is pretty worthless, seeing as it's banned. As for Dragonite, I believe a Dragon Pulse will KO it after Stealth Rock.

Skarmory can manage at least half of these feats, with a free item slot to boot. OHKO Swampert? Machamp? LOLOLOLOL, now you're really dreaming. Unless it's packing HP (Grass) against Swampert, it's doomed. And by Lead, I meant LEAD, not an anti-lead.

Does Skarm wall Azelf? No, dead to Fire Blast/shut down by Taunt/crippled by Trick. LO Heatran does kill Swampert and Machamp with HP Grass and Overheat, respectively, which Skarm can't (Brave Bird doesn't even OHKO Champ). And it sure as hell can't OHKO Skarm/Forry leads. So no, Skarm does not outclass Tran as a lead.

The rest of your post makes it extremely hard for me to take you seriously, you obviously don't play with Heatran well, if at all...

 

[His Eminence Lord Poppington II]

This Narwhal guy is clearly retarded and/or inexperienced. Overrated 4th gen OU pokemon, I personally don't believe there are any, those that are actually in OU and are crap are properly recognized as being so. There are, however, pokemon I believe that have standard sets that are inferior to their alternative sets, for example, Jirachi's Choice Scarf set makes very poor use of its vast movepool and only makes minimal use of its ability (CS Iron head). I believe Flygon should take that job due to its better offensive typing and access to powerful dual stabs, despite lesser bulk. Jirachi's huge multitude of sets and its ability to still bluff another set despite revealing a move (Superachi and bulky CM are hard to differentiate until it is too late) leave it as a huge threat; whereas if you use a CS you're just revealing yourself right off the bat.

 

[llKll]

I thought everyone here knew that azelf sucks as a lead and that it's just dumb to let your heatran in front of machamp. lol

 

[BKC]

I thought everyone here knew that azelf sucks as a lead and that it's just dumb to let your heatran in front of machamp. lol

Azelf sucks as a lead? Why is it #1 in usage then? The amount of options it can run is tremendous. Standard focus sash, LO antilead, CB, TrickScarf, Colbur, dual screens...you want to say that sucks?

And leaving Heatran in on Machamp isn't that dumb if you're running Specs/LO and can KO with Overheat.

 

[Congratulations]

HEATRAN!

C'mom people. Only 2 or 3 guys voted this as overhyped.
Yeah, it is is every freaking team, but it doesn't do shit. Gen 4 was dominated by bulky waters, and every one of them laughs at Heatran's face. Besides, 4x weak to EQ brings it to tears. It's so easely countered, c'mon.

The only set I think that can cause trouble to unprepared teams it's the torment/taunt/sub/protect or something like that.

Made me Lol ^. How about this @Specs Overheat/HPGrass/EP/Dpulse
Or @LO With the same set but Explosion > Dpulse I'm having a hard time picturing suicune switching into hp grass and taking an explosion and it lol's at pert and vappy. Starmie also has to be warry of HP Grass when switching in. Also narwhals I lol'd at you too. Since FWG isn't running the meta right? I mean it can only beat 2/3 of a FWG core, but thats useless right? Also skarmory doesnt beat sd luke scizor or cm rachi.