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Most threatening Pokemon behind a substitute?

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by FaceFaceFace, Aug 18, 2012.

  1. FaceFaceFace


    May 15, 2012
    There are a plethora of substitute abusers in the game - and they all present very real threats as of themselves.

    I just wanted to know what the Smogon community thinks is THE most dangerous Pokemon behind a sub?

    Kyurem? Latios? Terrakion? Gyarados?


    Which Pokemon has the combination of bulk, speed, AND offensive prowess to make you wet your pants when you read the words "______ made a Substitute!"

    There are some outlined in this neat little article:

    But what do YOU think?
  2. Marzbar


    Sep 10, 2009
    Breloom: has a few scary options, with Spore, Focus Punch and Toxic Heal all working well with Sub.
    Kingdra: can hide behind a Sub and wreak havoc with Dragon Dance and great coverage moves. Also has good bulk.
    Volcarona: Quiver Dance, nuff said.
    Toxicroak: very scary in the Rain with Dry Skin and options like Swords Dance/Bulk Up, Sucker Punch and Focus Punch/Drain Punch.
    Jirachi: Calm Mind abuse, ParaFlinch abuse, etc.
    Scizor: can set up a Sub surprisingly easily and then combine Swords Dance and Bullet Punch.
    Chandelure: ghosts can easily set up a Substitute thanks to great immunities (Gengar and Dusknoir are other examples of Sub users), and Chandelure stands out because of it's great abilities and huge Special Attack stat. It can set up with Calm Mind or just go straight for the KO with great STAB attacks.
  3. NixHex

    NixHex ONE YEAR Seizure Free!! God bless keppra.
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Oct 6, 2009
    Sub + Calm Mind Jirachi has induced many a groan from me. That Thunder Paralysis chance makes it so much worse that just phazing it becomes a chore. Gliscor has a good shot at countering it should Jirachi run HP Fire / Psyshock over Psychic, since it will be breaking the subs every turn and therefore wasting its time. Overall, the best you can do to a Sub user is make it a chore for them to maintain it. Rotom-W is common enough and a great counter for something like Gyarados. Even without a Choice Scarf it still causes a problem since it resists all of Gyarados's attacks and obliterates it with Thunderbolt once it finds an opening. Always keep in mind that they are depleting their HP in the process, unless they're Gliscor or Toxicroak :-/
  4. Adamant Zoroark

    Adamant Zoroark

    Aug 11, 2011
    Gliscor, by far. Sub up on a switch, + Protect = all HP lost due to Substitute regained. It can Toxic your Rotom-W, and if you're running non-Choiced Rotom-W, most Gliscor nowadays are faster and can SubToxic stall you. If you have Scarf Rotom-W, it can Protect to scout your moves and if you go for Volt Switch predicting it to switch, it will no longer be shitting bricks. Walled pretty badly by Skarmory and Bronzong, though, and against Skarmory the lack of Taunt is a pain in the ass. However, Gliscor is IMO still by far the most annoying Substitute user in the entire game.
  5. ZandgaiaX


    Aug 16, 2009
    Seeing as my main team uses three substitute pokemon, I can safely say that substitute is an incredible move. One of the best, if counting in the fact that almost every pokemon can learn it.

    Not to mention that whilst Substitute is fairly 'expensive' in terms of health (25% after all), the benefits are so great that it's absolutely worth it: protection against status, protection against hax (crits, flinches, etc.), protection whilst exploring a moveset. Protection, protection, protection, that's what's Substitute is all about. Too bad it doesn't stop Taunt and Torment (I think?). However, it truely is worth at least trying it out if it's an option.

    I'm planning on testing various substitute sets, like machamp, heatran, celebi, jirachi. Etc. some time. Maybe I'll drop some information later..
  6. X5Dragon


    Jun 12, 2011
    Rain Subcalm Jiachi, Stall Gliscors, BU Toxicroak with Suckerpunch.
  7. SpecsX


    Aug 13, 2012
    Has to be Jirachi/Gliscor for me. SubCM Jirachi is incredibly annoying and deadly, or it can eve be sub+paraflinch to make it harder to attack and break the sub. Gliscor because of the massive HP gains from poison heal. Even if you're breaking his sub every time, he's getting half his health back.
  8. Asek


    Apr 28, 2012
    Gengar for sure. Once its subbed up its hard to counter it because I don't know what set its running. Is it carrying disable? Is Blissey safe or does he have Pain Split? Or what if hes carrying 3 attacks and my Scizor can't scare it out with a Bullet Punch? The sheer unpredictability of Gengar would have to make it the best sub abuser IMO. Once he's behind a Sub he is very hard to take down and not to mention he can set up subs often on Choice Locked Fighting and Ground type moves
  9. Jimbon

    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Jan 24, 2012
    Hydreigon deserves a worthy mention, with great Special Attack and coverage, it's pretty hard to switch into unless you're carrying something like a Chansey. It still hits the majority of Special Walls such as Heatran / Tyranitar / Jirachi hard which a lot of other common Special Attackers can't do as well as Hydreigon.

    Also, Sub Dragon Dance Dragonite is also a mon that easily sets up on a lot of things. Sub + Roost + Multiscale is great for maximizing the length of your Substitutes, as well as constantly regaining health. It's great for many things, such as choiced locked Genesect, Specially Defensive Jirachi, Tentacruel, Ferrothorn, Keldeo, defensive Gliscor, Scizor and a lot of other common mons.
  10. Zarco


    Feb 22, 2011
    Pretty much any somewhat bulky booster is scary behind a sub- Gyarados, Keldeo, Terrakion, Raikou (surprisingly amazing), Dragonite, etc. can wreak havoc. They get all the benefits of a substitute Pokemon while being able to set up on something like Rachi or Ferro that can't break their sub. Toxicroak gets an honorable
    mention for Sub+Sucker Punch, and the ability to get most of his sub back revert turn which allows him to both set up and toxicstall using sub.
  11. -Rockstar-


    Aug 14, 2010
    For me its Hydreigion running a mixed set of EQ/DP/Surf under rain I can sweep teams but something new I have been using is Landorus-I running LO and Sheer Force behind a sub with Focus Blast Earth power and HP Ice its been working really well so far.
  12. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego When the grim reaper says you get to be in the skeleton army
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
    GP Co-Leader

    May 29, 2011
    Surprised nobody has said Walrein yet. 100% impossible to take down behind a sub and hail. you heard me right, 100%.

    Whimsicott is a little bitch, too.
  13. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte Who says I can't get stoned?
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Jul 5, 2012
    Ninjask. Not exactly what you may think, but being behind a Substitute means a free +2 attack boost (unless the opponent has a Cloyster) and a +2 Speed boost. No drawbacks. And then what? Pass it to a Dragon like Haxorus and watch things die.

    Cloyster. Shell Smash? Heck yes.

    Jumpluff. I've been using one, and it outspeeds EVERYTHING (bar scarved Deo-S) With Encore, it can force you out, then Substitute the switch in. It can then put them to sleep, Leech Seed them, and just Sub stall, because it's HP is quite low compared to some other pokemon. NixHex can support this, lol.
  14. FaceFaceFace


    May 15, 2012
    Oh dear God I have to give this a try.
  15. SpecsX


    Aug 13, 2012
    Sub Ninjask... ooh that gives me chills

    Ninjask@focus sash
    baton pass
    (roost reactivates focus sash if you want that)
    ninjask behind sub is now my worst fear
  16. Zacchaeus

    is a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Dec 5, 2009
    I was hoping the Substitute could be Baton Passed (to Shedinja) but as far as a Pokémon that can use Substitute and scare the hell out of you with the 3 remaining moves it has, I would probably go with Iron Fist Conkeldurr. Strongest Focus Punch in the game, good bulk, and new toys such as Ice Punch to dispatch Gliscor and the likes
  17. 2sly4u


    Oct 19, 2010
    I'm going with SubPunch Breloom. Once he's safe behind a Sub, there's almost no way you can avoid getting something crippled by Spore or straight-up KOed by Focus Punch. With Poison Heal, he has the chance to set up multiple times a game with little (if any) net health loss.
  18. PDC

    PDC this cruel thesis
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a defending World Cup of Pokemon champion

    Mar 18, 2010
    Above all I have to say Jirachi. The Rain Calm Mind set is just torture, and sometimes it's just bulky enough to tank more than 1 hit behind sub, which can result in another statusted Pokemon through Thunder. It can single handedly win a match just through hax, and even better provide valuable resists a rain team needs.
  19. Explorer


    Mar 22, 2012
    There is also the less common Sand Veil Gliscor with Substitute:

    Swords Dance
    Acrobatics/Ice Fang

    Something along these lines...
  20. Jets


    Mar 7, 2011
    gyarados is definitely the most threatening mon behind a sub hands down! sets up on everything once he gets a sub up.

    edit: how come gyara didnt even get a mention before this post omg
  21. Vileman

    Vileman ★SweetPosho: im stupid xD
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Sep 28, 2010
    It did got mentioned on zarco's comment, it is indeed very threatening, with the appropiate evs it can set up DD on almost every wall (ferrothorn, jellicient, even non tbolt jirachi etc), so it can set up multiple times.
    Also, ninjask on a sub, like mentioned earlier, can only be stopped from passing a +2 on attack and speed by...pranksters users (whishmicott). The thing is- a phazer deals with ninjsask easily. Also, if there are rocks up, ninjsask will be left with 32% of health (assuming leftovers, not sure if this is right), so it will die to rocks.
    Another Poke who is threatening under a sub is Gengar, it has a lot of things to use after getting his sub up- pain split, disable or just attacking whatever comes in.
    Also dragonite deserves a mention because it can roost it way back to multiscale, and most walls wont be able to break the sub easily, while dragonite will keep spreading paralisis and dragon tail the opponent away, or set upp dragon dance for a sweep.
  22. VaporeonIce


    Mar 11, 2010
    Ninjask hasn't changed in three generations, and there's a reason it hasn't seen a lot of use. While it's certainly very threatening to pass +2 Attack and +2 Speed to another Pokemon, it's hard to do that when literally every Pokemon in OU can break your Sub (seriously, it's impossible to EV Ninjask so its Sub can survive an uninvested Jellicent Scald). A handful of Pokemon might switch out of Ninjask for fear of X-Scissor (Alakazam, Celebi, maybe Starmie), but the only one of those Ninjask might be able to take a hit from is Celebi, so it's not like Ninjask can switch in.

    So yes, if Ninjask actually ends a turn with its Substitute intact, it's amazing (assuming the Pokemon your opponent has out doesn't have a phazing move); passing +2 Speed and +2 Attack. Unfortunately, it's pretty much the least likely Pokemon in the game to actually get its Substitute up safely, so at best you'll often just be passing a bunch of Speed boosts (and if you try to Protect to get more Speed boosts, your opponent has an opportunity to switch in a phazer for free). I don't think passing some speed boosts, and a 5% or less chance of passing +2 Atk/+2 Spd, is really worth having a Pokemon on your team that can't do anything else.
    Ronnie the Bear likes this.
  23. toshimelonhead

    toshimelonhead Allergic to Losing
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Nov 24, 2009
    I find Substitute to be extremely effective if the pokemon behind the sub can heal itself and create more than just four substitutes. Gliscor obviously qualifies with Sub + Toxic + Protect or getting a lucky Sand Veil hax, but Jirachi qualifies too because most checks get paralyzed/confused pretty quickly with 60% hax rates. Venusaur in the sun is probably the best subseeder because of its resistance to Toxic Spikes. Breloom as mentioned before with Spore / Sub can end a match if used correctly.

    If I had to pick one, though, it's Jirachi hands down. That thing gives me nightmares.
  24. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Jun 22, 2008
    Garchomp Gliscor. SubToxic is extremely hard to deal with unless you're planning to beat it beforehand in the teambuilder (I always do), and so is SD Acrobat. Don't lose your Skarmory or you might lose your team!
  25. goofygubber


    May 18, 2008
    While I agree that Ninjask is a big threat when behind a sub, I don't really see it as an amazing user of substitute (or a decent pokemon for that matter). This is because Ninjask is so one dimensional that it most players expect some shenanigans like sub, baton pass, etc. and therefore it has a hard time being in a position to make a sub without having it broken or being taunted or just flat out not being able to do anything.

    That being said I think the most threatening user of sub right now is Gyrados. The fact that it is decently bulky and hits things hard is one thing, but having intimidate and being able to switch in on many pokemon right now means that it has an easy time subbing up and getting a free DD.

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