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Mothim (BW2 update)[QC 2/3] [GP 2/2] DONE

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by bobbyvaporeon, Sep 25, 2013.

  1. bobbyvaporeon

    bobbyvaporeon

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    Ok this is my first C&C please dont be harsh i tried

    [​IMG]
    Mothman

    70/94/50/94/50/66

    [Overview]

    <p>At first glance, Mothim seems to be outclassed by Butterfree and other Quiver Dance users due to its frailty and lack of Sleep Powder, but fortunately for Mothim, its decently high Special Attack and Tinted Lens ability typically make it a better user of Choice Specs than these Pokemon, though an inferior user of Quiver Dance. Even so, Mothim's low Speed, 4x weakness to Stealth Rock, and overall frailty make it hard for it to stay around for longer than a few turns, so it's use is fairly limited. While it won't hurt to try Mothim out, you have to keep in mind that it faces a lot of competition as a wallbreaker from other Pokemon such as Charizard, who can provide other benefits to your team in addition to punching holes in opposing teams </p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Specs
    move 1: Bug Buzz
    move 2: Air Slash
    move 3: Sleep Talk
    move 4: U-turn
    item: Choice Specs
    ability: Tinted Lens
    nature: Rash
    evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Bug Buzz and Air Slash are Mothim's strongest STAB options and the combination of the two is unresisted in NU, thanks to Mothim's Tinted Lens ability. Since the majority of the Pokemon in the tier that use sleep-inducing moves are Grass- or Bug-type Pokemon, Mothim makes a great user of Sleep Talk as it both resists their STAB attacks and can deal damage back with either Air Slash or Bug Buzz, as appropriate. Finally, U-turn allows Mothim to maintain momentum for its team by pivoting away from the special walls that can take its Choice Specs-Boosted boosted attacks, such as Lickilicky, Audino, and Probopass.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Rash is preferred over Modest, as Mothim's defenses are terrible anyway, and it doesn't want U-turn to be weakened. Choice Specs is used as it boosts Mothim's power, which is really its only redeeming trait, while Tinted Lens makes the move lock a trivial matter. Hidden Power Ground is an interesting option over Sleep Talk as it can be used to hit Probopass and Bastiodon, who can otherwise wall Mothim. Due to its crippling Stealth Rock weakness, a spinner, such as Wartortle, or a teammate who can defeat common entry hazard setters, such as Mold Breaker Sawk, Taunt Samurott, or Bullet Seed Torterra, is an immsnse help in order to keep Mothim healthy. Spikes support is needed for Mothim to OHKO some Pokemon, such as bulkier Golurk, which makes Garbodor a great partner as it can reliably set up Spikes and Toxic Spikes to support its team and take hits for Mothim in a pinch. Due to Mothim's bad bulk, pivots such as Musharna and Probopass make amazing partners for it as they can easily take any hit for Mothim and spread paralysis to support it, or in Probopass's case, set up Stealth Rock.</p>

    [Other Options]
    <p>Mothim receives Quiver Dance, which is a fantastic setup move. Sadly, it is outclassed in this department by both Butterfree and Masquerain, who have Sleep Powder and Intimidate, respectively, to help them set up. Hidden Power Ice or Water can be used to hit Pokemon such as Altaria or Camerupt, respectively, a little harder, but Mothim's STAB moves are usually enough for its purposes. Giga Drain is a neat move that can be used to recover the moth's health, but in the long run it probably won't help Mothim survive any attacks, and Grass-type moves don't provide any useful coverage. Tailwind can boost Mothim's Speed and allow Mothim to support its team, but Mothim's frailty and the short duration of the move's effect mean that it is gimmicky at best. There is also the option of a physical set with Flying Gem-boosted Acrobatics and U-turn, but Mothim has no way of boosting its average Attack stat. Finally, Swarm can be used to boost Bug Buzz's power when Mothim is at low health, but Tinted Lens is a far better ability in the long run.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Because of its sheer power thanks to Choice Specs and Tinted Lens, Mothim can be a tough Pokemon to switch into. However, checking it is a lot easier due to its many notable flaws. Because of Mothim's average Speed and awful defenses, a faster Pokemon such as Sawk, Rotom-A, or Zangoose can outspeed and OHKO Mothim. Keep in mind that these Pokemon are strictly revenge killers, as they cannot switch in to Mothim's attacks. Stealth Rock is a huge thorn in Mothim's side, as it strips away half its HP every time it switches in. Setting and keeping it up can be a problem due to Mothim's teammates preventing you from doing so, but it helps with controlling Mothim's switch-ins. As for some specific counters, Probopass hard counters Mothim if it doesn't run Hidden Power Ground, and can either OHKO with Power Gem or set up Stealth Rock. Special walls such as Regice and Lickilicky that have high Special Defense stats also counter Mothim, and can either phaze it out or OHKO in Regice's case. Finally, priority moves from Pokemon such as Skuntank and Piloswine can easily OHKO Mothim with some prior damage.</p>
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2014
  2. Lolk

    Lolk you can't stop the beat
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    Overview:
    I wouldn't say Mothim's access to quiver dance is "new" as it has had access to it for three years now. Also, fire-isn't one of it's common weaknesses, as rock and electric are far morn common. Nevertheless, I would just note and say it is weak to many common attacking types and not give specific types a mention.

    Set:
    I would cut the scratches of HP Ice and Water because the whole purpose of using it is because tinted lens negates the need for coverage moves, and the 4X weak mons are pretty situational. They can be mentioned in AC though!

    Set Comments:
    Mention that the biggest reason to use Mothim over the other bugs is its immediate high special attacking stat so it doesn't need boosts as much as the other bugs do.

    Additional Comments:
    Cut the mention of the EVs because that is already implied. Also, if you are going to mention spikes and toxic spikes support, you need to provide specific examples of what KOs it nabs.

    Other Options:
    A choice specs set is not too bad actually because little can switch in on its coverage. Give it a little more love!

    Checks and Counters:
    I doubt Golbat can switch-in safely on a +1 Air Slash, especially since most are physically defensive, but I do encourage you to add more taunt users such as Mandibuzz and Samurott. Exemplify your fact that most scarfers can revenge or take it out while setting up and list more examples, because literally almost ALL common scarfers can take it out with a coverage move. Mention Fat Boi cause he is awesome. And this is also the main section where Stealth Rock should be mentioned, as it is the best way to check mothim.

    So... QC 0/3 cause i have no power, so feel free to use or not use whatever.
  3. melvni

    melvni
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    The formatting you have for the set is a little of. It should look like

    [SET]
    name: Quiver Dance
    move 1: Quiver Dance
    move 2: Bug Buzz
    move 3: Air Slash
    move 4: Roost / Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Water / Substitute
    item: Life Orb / Leftovers
    ability: Tinted Lens
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spd

    Also, to piggyback a little off what lolkomori said about additional comments, either cut the mention of Modest or add something about what it specifically does that Timid doesn't. Otherwise mentioning you could run Modest for more power doesn't really add any information the reader wouldn't already have.

    I noticed you also appear to have the word smart quotes and apostrophe's in your outline. I know this is your first analysis, so when you write this up, make sure you use normal straight quotes and apostrophes instead. Redew has a thread here explaining how to turn off smart quotes in Word.

    Oh and one last minor thing: it's Rotom-S not Rotom Fan :)
  4. bobbyvaporeon

    bobbyvaporeon

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    Ok thanks guys. I'll change some stuff in a bit, and I'll do some calcs to see what spikes supprt does for it.
  5. bobbyvaporeon

    bobbyvaporeon

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    Also I'm sorry it isn't that great, I'll get better at this I promise
  6. Soulgazer

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    I feel like Focus Sash deserves a mention in AC, since Mothim is so frail Focus Sash would help it have a guaranteed boost which can be possible to do when pairing it with Sawk or Taunt Samurott/Serperior which can stop entry hazards.

    EDIT: Might aswell add Samurott, Serperior, and Sawk in AC for good partners. They can easily deal with the Rock- and Steel-types that can stop Mothim (I'm pretty sure they can live a Tinted Lens Bug Buzz).
    bobbyvaporeon likes this.
  7. Soulgazer

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    Sorry for double post, but is Roost really worth it on a Pokemon that frail? Again, I'm not QC, but I think Substitute need to be slashed first. As for Roost, I would personally prefer running another coverage move like Hidden Power Ground (Probopass and Bastiodon are mostly the targets for HP Ground, although there might be more) over Roost, with that in mind I would probably put Roost and Substitute in AC or even OO: Mothim wants to start attacking as fast as possible before getting KO by a plethora of stuff.

    I would also like to bring up the Choice Spec set. Spec Mothim hits like a truck (even more with the help of Tinted Lens), making Mothim a decent wallbreaker that can punch holes through resists. The set , I believe, look like this:

    [​IMG]

    [SET]
    name: Choice Specs
    move 1: Bug Buzz
    move 2: Air Slash
    move 3: Sleep Talk
    move 4: U-turn
    item: Choice Specs
    ability: Tinted Lens
    nature: Rash / Modest
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2013
  8. Dat Blast

    Dat Blast mfw shmebulock
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    Tbh, I really don't like QD Mothim. It's basically just a worse Butterfree because it lacks Sleep Powder and is still outsped by Swellow at +1. It's stronger but Butterfree is still better because it boosts so much easier thanks to Sleep Powder.

    Also yeah Specs Mothim def looks better to me atm. What Mothim has over its competition is extra power and access to Air Slash, and Specs is definitely better for abusing that. Not gonna say much cos I never used Mothim before, but right now it's definitely looking better than Quiver Dance.
    Hollywood likes this.
  9. ebeast

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    I think Choice Specs is better on Mothim than Quiver Dance. Mothim is extremely slow even with QD and doesn't have Sleep Powder like Butterfree to help it set up. (poor defenses doesn't help it either) What Mothim does have however are good offensive stats and Tinted Lens which makes it a good wallbreaker. Base 66 Speed is surprisingly good for the faster walls/some slow offensive Pokemon so that's fine.

    Soulgazer's set that he posted looks good just change Spec to Specs and make it Rash only, its bulk is bad anyways and the extra damage on U-turn could be useful. Also put a space after each colon. First 2 moves are self explanatory; Sleep Talk is so that Mothim can take a sleep from Grass-types and still do something; U-turn can be useful to gain momentum if needed. For AC on that add Hidden Power Rock, Hidden Power Ground, and Giga Drain, in that order.

    HP Rock hits Zard, but Air Slash already OHKOes after SR. You don't really need move 3 and 4 all that much so being able to KO Zard without SR with HP Rock is better than all other AC options since it hits a relevant mon while HP Ground hits Prob/Bastio who aren't as common and Giga Drain is just Win-more. HP Ground would be for Probopass/Bastiodon since Bug Buzz still doesn't do much to them even with Tinted Lens. Giga Drain can be used to hit Golurk and Alomomola while recovering health but Bug Buzz does the job anyways. In AC for this also add that it can use Timid to outspeed Modest Ludicolo and Samurott.

    Rewrite the Overview because Specs is now a set (It should be the 1st one btw, it is much better than QD) If we're going to keep QD you need to fix it up. It should look like this:
    [SET]
    name: Quiver Dance
    move 1: Quiver Dance
    move 2: Bug Buzz
    move 3: Air Slash
    move 4: Hidden Power Water / Hidden Power Ground [This is the proper spacing for slashes]
    item: Life Orb [I don't think Lefties should be an option]
    ability: Tinted Lens
    nature: Modest / Timid [Nature needs to be listed; I made Modest the first slash]
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe [This needs to be in this format: HP / Atk / Def / SpA / SpD / Spe]

    Made move 4 HP Water because it OHKOes Charizard at +1 and still hits Golurk, Probopass, and Bastiodon. HP Ground should be either a slash or an AC mention. What it does is hit Probopass, Bastiodon, and Metang harder than Bug Buzz. Life Orb as only item because Mothim's bulk is awful and will not benefit much from it. If you're worried about recoil getting in the way, you can AC Insect Plate + HP Rock. Modest because Timid doesn't let you do anything outside of outspeed Jolly Tauros/Jumpluff, while Modest allows you to OHKO Charizard with HP Water at +1.

    Implement pls bobbyvaporeon
    dcae, atomicllamas, DTC and 1 other person like this.
  10. Soulgazer

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    Disregard the first part of my last post, ebeast made me realise Hidden Power Water actually has more benefits than Hidden Power Ground, so to be completly honest, ditch Substitute and Roost, and change the 4th moveslots to : Hidden Power Water / Hidden Power Ground (it still has some nice uses, like being stronger against Steel-types, although it is not as good as hitting Golurk and Charizard for super effective damages.)

    EDIT: Listen to ebeast
  11. Raseri

    Raseri here to help
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    I think QD should just be cut. I wouldn't want to use QD mothim when I could use butterfree or masquerain. The small niche it has as a QDer just isn't enough to justify it.

    Another set i think should be considered is a physical set with Acrobatics. Mothim's physical movepool stinks, but flying gem acro is just really strong :
    252+ Atk Flying Gem Tinted Lens Mothim Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Eelektross: 284-336 (80.22 - 94.91%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock.

    Other move would be U-turn, Roost and ??? (HP Ground maybe).

    I've used the set and its decent, not as good as specs, but at the very least deserves a significant OO mention
  12. Hollywood

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    I was going to post rejecting QD too. Not only is it bad, but it's almost entirely outclassed. Masquerain can pull off Quiver Dance because of Baton Pass and Intimidate, while Butterfree can pull it off because of Sleep Powder. This gives them both more chances to set up that Mothim just doesn't have. Sure, it's stronger, but when you can't set up on anything, that power difference is irrelevant. Beautifly's set is QD because it can't do anything else. Mothim, on the other hand, can do other things, and it can do them fairly efficiently at that. Specs should definitely be the first set, and a physical set sounds cool. It might just be OO worthy, but I do think that it merits testing.
  13. bobbyvaporeon

    bobbyvaporeon

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    Sorry I've been gone, smogon wouldn't run for me. After thinking I will add the specs set, but I still think QD should be the secondary set.
  14. Hollywood

    Hollywood lesbian jonas brother
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    If you can tell me why I would want to run QD Mothim over QD Butterfree or QD Masquerain, I'll approve the set. Otherwise, I'm rejecting it.
  15. bobbyvaporeon

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    so i made it suck less.
  16. tennisace

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    you forgot the nature on the set :<
  17. Dat Blast

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    [Overview]
    • Don't say Mothim "works well with support," that's pretty much the case with everything. Though you can still say you should consider your other options first before using it.
    [SET COMMENTS]
    • You have LO as the item. Change it to Specs.
    • Make the nature Rash only. Mothim needs all the power it can get and you don't want to lower U-turn's power.
    • Talk about how Tinted Lens is what makes Mothim dangerous, since it can bypass resists and stuff.
    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • Don't mention that Mothim shouldn't invest in its defenses, it's pretty self-explanatory.
    • Change Life Orb mention to Specs.
    • Mention paralysis support here. Mothim's main issue here is its low Speed, so paralysis helps immensely in dealing with that so it can start dishing out attacks. Something like Musharna would be fine as a partner.
    • Take Giga Drain out of here. It's already mentioned in OO and imo it's best there.
    [Checks and Counters]
    • You need to expand this part a lot. Don't mention Scarfers because Mothim's slow enough to be outsped by most non-Scarfers anyway. Replace it with faster threats in general. Mention SR here, and how it seriously limits Mothim's switch-ins. Mention how certain mons like Charizard can still switch in on Bug Buzz and kill it. Basically you just need to mention a lot more things in general.
    Implement bobbyvaporeon , and I'll check back later.
  18. WhiteDMist

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    Yeah, tell us that you've implemented the changes plz. I'm adding on a few things that should be addressed, but otherwise I have only tested the Specs set for a few battles at most so people who've used it more take precedent.

    [Overview]
    Don't oversell its abilities as a wallbreaker, it's still coming off a base 94 Special Attack so it is merely decent.

    [SET COMMENTS]
    Don't mention Parasect, it's practically irrelevant. Mention Exeggutor/Tangela instead, as they are more common as also outsped by Mothim (unless in Sun with Eggy).

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    Mention that Mothim appreciates Pokemon that can switch in on Charizard, especially something like Altaria who can handle even the Specs set rather well. Be a bit more specific about teammates too, for instance Garbodor is a better teammate synergy-wise than Scolipede so it should get a main mention as a Spiker.

    [Other Options]
    Quiver Dance should be the first bullet as Mothim has the most power after a boost, with the mention that Butterfree is better due to Sleep Powder and higher Speed, while Masquerain has Intimidate and Baton Pass. Emphasize that these qualities overshadow the slightly higher power due to the easier set-up. Ditch Camouflage, no one would use it and it provides little benefit. Substitute and Roost go here as well.

    [Checks and Counters]

    Probopass and Bastiodon go here, they tank any move Mothim goes for. They also set up Stealth Rock and can cripple Mothim with either Power Gem or Roar. Charizard switches in on Bug Buzz, not Air Slash. It should get a separate mention as well, since it still resists Bug Buzz despite Tinted Lens.
  19. Raseri

    Raseri here to help
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  20. bobbyvaporeon

    bobbyvaporeon

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    Yes, very sorry, I was inactive with some personal stuff (and x and y).
    I edited it a bit more
  21. WhiteDMist

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    Remove the first point in Overview, it says nothing important. You forgot to change the mention of Air Slash to Bug Buzz for Charizard in Checks/Counters. Looks good otherwise, though you should remove all the extra spaces between tags.

    1/3
  22. Dat Blast

    Dat Blast mfw shmebulock
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    2/3, though I'd replace defensive Altaria with Alomomola because defensive Taria sucks and Mola can provide Wish support.
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  23. bobbyvaporeon

    bobbyvaporeon

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    Dat Blast Id rather keep altaria, as Alomomola is 2HKOED by HP grass.
    Also when do i write this up
  24. Soulgazer

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    Usually, you write this up when you get the second QC check bobbyvaporeon , which means that you can write it :)
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  25. bobbyvaporeon

    bobbyvaporeon

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    It will be done.

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