Move Equality (Playable) Whirlpool, Fire Spin, Infestation & Sand Tomb are now banned (see post 193)

[GlassVeins]

Is (mega) zam really good in this meta? seems like it would be with its ridiculous coverage, fantastic speed which allows it to revenge m-bee, and now charge beam, which should allow it to increase its incredible sp.a while smacking flying types hard. this would be my set:

alakazam@alakazamite
(ev's at whatever)
~psyshock
~protect/sub
~charge beam/ dazzling gleam/shadow ball
~hp fighting/shadow ball

Run the calcs. it's ridiculous how much stuff it can OHKO/2HKO.

 

[Martin]

Is (mega) zam really good in this meta? seems like it would be with its ridiculous coverage, fantastic speed which allows it to revenge m-bee, and now charge beam, which should allow it to increase its incredible sp.a while smacking flying types hard. this would be my set:

alakazam@alakazamite
(ev's at whatever)
~psyshock
~protect/sub
~charge beam/ dazzling gleam/shadow ball
~hp fighting/shadow ball

Run the calcs. it's ridiculous how much stuff it can OHKO/2HKO.

MegaZam is interesting, and I must try it out. It benefits from the more offensive nature of the meta, seeing how it rips offense a new one.

Speaking of stuff which benefits hugely from the increase in offense, me and mac1275 have been messing around with Raichu recently and it is stupidly good. With its access to great utility options in Volt Switch, Encore, Fake Out and Lighningrod in conjunction with its access to a base 100 Nuzzle and a good speed tier of 110, it is an amazing anti-lead and just really useful overall. The set we've been messing around with is this:

Raichu @ Focus Sash
Ability: Lightiningrod
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nuzzle
- Fake Out
- Volt Switch
- Encore / Hidden Power [Ice]

Other options: Brick Break (smashes screens)

Its really neat due to it directly taking advantage of Klefki's Thunder Wave to boost its Volt Switch and Hidden Power Ice, its ability to break sashes and Sturdy with Fake Out and its ability to lock things into moves like Stealth Rock, allowing it to completely neuter them and use them to either grab momentum or cripple something with Nuzzle.

 

[NotSoClutch]

MegaZam is interesting, and I must try it out. It benefits from the more offensive nature of the meta, seeing how it rips offense a new one.

Speaking of stuff which benefits hugely from the increase in offense, me and mac1275 have been messing around with Raichu recently and it is stupidly good. With its access to great utility options in Volt Switch, Encore, Fake Out and Lighningrod in conjunction with its access to a base 100 Nuzzle and a good speed tier of 110, it is an amazing anti-lead and just really useful overall. The set we've been messing around with is this:

Raichu @ Focus Sash
Ability: Lightiningrod
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nuzzle
- Fake Out
- Volt Switch
- Encore / Hidden Power [Ice]

Other options: Brick Break (smashes screens)

Its really neat due to it directly taking advantage of Klefki's Thunder Wave to boost its Volt Switch and Hidden Power Ice, its ability to break sashes and Sturdy with Fake Out and its ability to lock things into moves like Stealth Rock, allowing it to completely neuter them and use them to either grab momentum or cripple something with Nuzzle.

I knew I forgot something when I left yesterday. Well, just to add on to this, there is also a life orb set Matt_192 was working on for Raichu. While it relies a bit more on Raichu's non-existent bulk, it's worth noting that Raichu does have some other interesting attacks such as thief, rock smash, espeed, nasty plot, charge beam, etc. While, gamer boy and I believe the anti-lead set is the way to go, it's certainly worth experimenting with as nuzzle is a pretty crazy move in this meta.

 

[Martin]

OK, I've played a little more and Stunfisk is really sweet in this meta. It is capable of completely shutting down the common Beedrill+Talonflame+Raichu core courtesy of its sweet typing and stat spread and it is sweet in that it doesn't kill momentum like Hippowdon does.

Stunfisk @ Rocky Helmet / Chesto Berry
Ability: Static
EVs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 88 SpA / 32 SpD
Modest Nature
- Mud Shot
- Discharge / Electroweb
- Stealth Rock
- Yawn / Rest / Scald

The given EVs OHKO Talonflame from full health 100% of the time with Discharge/Electroweb and avoid a 2HKO from Sash Raichu's Hidden Power Ice/Grass after rocks. Stunfisk's ability to shut down VoltTurn has been inherited in this meta, with it taking Beedrill and Talonflame's U-turns/Flame Charges with ease and punishes them for it with Rocky Helmet, while also providing great utility with Mud Shot, Stealth Rock etc. The best part about it though is that 50% of the types that its weak to don't even want to come in on it due to its STABs dealing a huge chunk to them.

 

[Mega-Serperior-Z]

Rest in Piece +100 base power moves.

Aerial ace is now a reliable stab for flying types like Mence and Dragonite.
Hidden Power is very viable to special mons in this meta that need coverage.
100% accuracy 60 bp moves now are useful.
Struggle Bug is now Bug type snarl with 100 bp
Snarl is a good move with 100 bp.
Little base power stat raising moves like Flame Charge, Charge Beam, Power-Up-Punch are now good.
Psybeam for the hax.
Drain Punch is very good.
Bulldoze, Bubblebeam good.
Heart. Stamp. Jirachi...
Nuzzle is good but for those who don't get access to it, Spark.
Incinerate might work?
Acid Spray for Damaging Special Def drop.
Ancient Power, Ominous wind might work.
Twister can now be good and also flinch.
Poison Fang > Poison Jab
Mega Drain for more PP!
Parabolic Charge is Viable

 

[Martin]

Seeing that this got bumped, I might as well take advantage of this mention something I've experimented with before this inevitably drops back into the depths of page two...

Conkeldurr @ Assault Vest / Life Orb
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
- Drain Punch
- Ice Punch
- Thunder Punch / Knock Off / Poison Jab
- Mach Punch

Conkeldurr is really interesting in this meta. Of course the given EVs are kinda bad as I'm just doing this off of the top of my head (defo needs more speed investment), but the reason I mention it is because of Iron Fist. People from back in the earlier days of this meta may remember that Golurk was very much overhyped due to Iron Fist Shadow Punch. Well this is the same kind of thing except better because it also has priority and enough bulk to actually take a hit or two. Anyway, the reason that this is so interesting is because it is able to boost all of its moves barring KOff and Mach Punch to 120 BP before STAB courtesy of this nifty ability. After STAB, it is left with a 180 BP Drain Punch coming off of base 145(?) attack. That is absolutely insane considering that it heals it in the process. Add to this 120 BP coverage and a priority move which comes up to 72 BP after STAB+Iron Fist and it is amazing to think that it took me until the meta hit page 2 for me to find it. This is definitely something to watch out for.

 

[Martin]

Sorry to double post/bump, but I've been experimenting a bit more and have found a really cool mon:

Milotic @ Life Orb / Leftovers
Ability: Competitive
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
- Scald
- Icy Wind / Disarming Voice
- Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Grass
- Recover

Milotic @ Leftovers
Ability: Competitive
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
- Wrap
- Scald
- Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Grass
- Recover

Anyone who knows me well will know that I hate when people use Milotic in metas where it has nothing going for it over other waters (see: OU, UU and at least 90% of the OMs). This means that I generally try to avoid using it and have developed a dislike of it. However, Milotic actually has a lot going for it in this meta. Between taking next to nothing from any of the omnipresent speed-dropping attacks, its access to Competitive and Wrap and its great longevity courtesy of its Recover, it is imo the premier hazard protector in the meta atm due to its unique traits and ability to lure and trap common stops with Wrap and its coverage move of choice. It is capable of stalling out what it can't KO with the combination of Wrap, Recover and Scald burns too - which is really sweet as a whole. Not as effective as if Azumarill could use PerishTrap with Sap Sipper, but still pretty cool regardless.

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

I found it difficult to teambuild for this meta, and was bored, so here you have it- Move viability. If anyone has suggested changes, I'd love to hear them.

Edit: now down 4 posts, or view file

 

[Martin]

I found it difficult to teambuild for this meta, and was bored, so here you have it- Move viability. If anyone has suggested changes, I'd love to hear them.

move viability

View attachment 55896

You list a lot of the moves which are good in standard that just lose all viability outside of a handful of rare exceptions on your list, as well as a number of moves which are overshadowed on all of their users. This is kinda misleading considering its a resource for helping pick the best moves. I'm gonna list any moves you should remove from the image below (and any additional comments in the paragraph below it) and I'll happily put that resource in the OP once these changes are implemented because it is a really good tool for people who are having trouble starting out to use. Just tag me once you've implemented it (either in a new post or editing the old one; either works for me) and I'll add it to the OP

Moves to remove

• Crunch
• Night Daze
• Dragon Pulse
• Wild Charge
• Flame Wheel
• Blaze Kick
• Fire Pledge
• Aeroblast (nothing gets this)
• Petal Blizzard
• Grass Pledge
• Body Slam (replace with Secret Power)
• Rock Climb
• Return
• Judgement (nothing gets this)
• Techno Blast (nothing gets this)
• Boomburst
• Crabhammer
• Water Pledge
• Water Gun
• Octazooka
• Bubble
• Bubblebeam
• Stone Edge
• Meteor Mash

Also make sure to list Hidden Power under all types barring normal and fairy (free coverage) and Natural Gift under all types (same as Hidden Power, albeit not free), as well as Sacred Sword due to its ability to ignore Boosts from stuff like Bulk Up and Diamond Storm being pretty cool. Make sure to fix Faint Attack's spelling and add Thief and Covet to the list.

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

You list a lot of the moves which are good in standard that just lose all viability outside of a handful of rare exceptions on your list, as well as a number of moves which are overshadowed on all of their users. This is kinda misleading considering its a resource for helping pick the best moves. I'm gonna list any moves you should remove from the image below (and any additional comments in the paragraph below it) and I'll happily put that resource in the OP once these changes are implemented because it is a really good tool for people who are having trouble starting out to use. Just tag me once you've implemented it (either in a new post or editing the old one; either works for me) and I'll add it to the OP

Moves to remove

• Crunch
• Night Daze
• Dragon Pulse
• Wild Charge
• Flame Wheel
• Blaze Kick
• Fire Pledge
• Aeroblast (nothing gets this)
• Petal Blizzard
• Grass Pledge
• Body Slam (replace with Secret Power)
• Rock Climb
• Return
• Judgement (nothing gets this)
• Techno Blast (nothing gets this)
• Boomburst
• Crabhammer
• Water Pledge
• Water Gun
• Octazooka
• Bubble
• Bubblebeam
• Stone Edge
• Meteor Mash

Also make sure to list Hidden Power under all types barring normal and fairy (free coverage) and Natural Gift under all types (same as Hidden Power, albeit not free), as well as Sacred Sword due to its ability to ignore Boosts from stuff like Bulk Up and Diamond Storm being pretty cool. Make sure to fix Faint Attack's spelling and add Thief and Covet to the list.

Smeargle gets all three listed moves. I know it isn't meaningful, but these are all listed remotely viable moves in order. If you want it gone its fine, but I think its worth noting. Still I didn't realize secret power was that widely distributed lol.
4 pokemon get boomburst without hyper voice,
Crunch should not be removed- 22 pokemon get it without any other phys dark move.
similarly, 35 get wild charge without any other phys electric move electric move.
8 pokemon get stone edge without another rock move.
Covet and Thief are pretty bad, as it means you cant run an item.
Sacred Sword is on there.
Crabhammer is Kinglers only phys water move.
4 pokemon get boomburst without hyper voice.
2 pokemon get flame wheel without a better fire move.
37 pokemon get dragon pulse without dragonbreath or twister. If you already have a hidden power, it can be good.
Meteor mash, while bad on Clefable, is its only physical steel move. Similarly, it has a 20% chance to boost atk instead of metal claw's 10.

Night daze has a niche, but Zoroark gets snarl. Up to you if you want it moved.
Anything not listed here has been fixed.

 

[Martin]

Smeargle gets all three listed moves. I know it isn't meaningful, but these are all listed remotely viable moves in order. If you want it gone its fine, but I think its worth noting. Still I didn't realize secret power was that widely distributed lol.
4 pokemon get boomburst without hyper voice,
Crunch should not be removed- 22 pokemon get it without any other phys dark move.
similarly, 35 get wild charge without any other phys electric move electric move.
8 pokemon get stone edge without another rock move.
Covet and Thief are pretty bad, as it means you cant run an item.
Sacred Sword is on there.
Crabhammer is Kinglers only phys water move.
4 pokemon get boomburst without hyper voice.
2 pokemon get flame wheel without a better fire move.
37 pokemon get dragon pulse without dragonbreath or twister. If you already have a hidden power, it can be good.
Meteor mash, while bad on Clefable, is its only physical steel move. Similarly, it has a 20% chance to boost atk instead of metal claw's 10.

Night daze has a niche, but Zoroark gets snarl. Up to you if you want it moved.
Anything not listed here has been fixed.

Smeargle will never meaningfully list those moves, so its kinda pountless listing them.

None of the boomburst users w/o hyper voice have any realistic use for it anyway due to it being overshadowed by their ither moves, making it a poor choice of move. I thought all mons with crunch got bite, so my bad there. Same w/ Wild Charge-->Thunder Fang and i guess dragon pulse-->other drag move (although I'm more sceptical about the latter as the only good user off of the top of my head is Serp). The Stone Edge mons lack much use for the move beyond maybe gyarados, which is why its not really worth listing. Covet I can understand (in hindsight yeah do keep it off cause its outclassed as crap), but Thief is literally a better Faint Attack on a number of users (opportunities to steal from eating KOffs and i think more pp (?)) while also being Hoopa's best phys dark move (cause Koff hoopa is absolutely terrible), making it worth listing. The flame wheel users are pretty brutally outclassed by other pokemon, as is Kingler. Finally, physical clefable is really not worth using for around 50 reasons that im too lazy to list, and if you want Metagross to get attack boosts just use PuP as it clicks that a lot anyway ue to it being an amazing coverage option. I missed sword my bad

There is basically no reason to use Night Daze at this point cause its niche came from its high power making it a more reliable killing tool rather than the accuracy drop rate. Zoro will always run pulse or snarl now cause it can stay concealed every now and again with those.

Generally I wanna keep away from listing moves which have use on a tiny pool of pokemon unless it is due to restriction limitations like it is with nuzzle (e.g. Crabhammer, Stone Edge). This is the reasoning behind some of the suggested removals, as this is a resource - making relevant info a priority. Honestly I forgot to say to add ground type moves to that list (literally bulldoze and epower) as well as one more move which has escaped me :/

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

Smeargle will never meaningfully list those moves, so its kinda pountless listing them.

None of the boomburst users w/o hyper voice have any realistic use for it anyway due to it being overshadowed by their ither moves, making it a poor choice of move. I thought all mons with crunch got bite, so my bad there. Same w/ Wild Charge-->Thunder Fang and i guess dragon pulse-->other drag move (although I'm more sceptical about the latter as the only good user off of the top of my head is Serp). The Stone Edge mons lack much use for the move beyond maybe gyarados, which is why its not really worth listing. Covet I can understand (in hindsight yeah do keep it off cause its outclassed as crap), but Thief is literally a better Faint Attack on a number of users (opportunities to steal from eating KOffs and i think more pp (?)) while also being Hoopa's best phys dark move (cause Koff hoopa is absolutely terrible), making it worth listing. The flame wheel users are pretty brutally outclassed by other pokemon, as is Kingler. Finally, physical clefable is really not worth using for around 50 reasons that im too lazy to list, and if you want Metagross to get attack boosts just use PuP as it clicks that a lot anyway ue to it being an amazing coverage option. I missed sword my bad

There is basically no reason to use Night Daze at this point cause its niche came from its high power making it a more reliable killing tool rather than the accuracy drop rate. Zoro will always run pulse or snarl now cause it can stay concealed every now and again with those.

Generally I wanna keep away from listing moves which have use on a tiny pool of pokemon unless it is due to restriction limitations like it is with nuzzle (e.g. Crabhammer, Stone Edge). This is the reasoning behind some of the suggested removals, as this is a resource - making relevant info a priority. Honestly I forgot to say to add ground type moves to that list (literally bulldoze and epower) as well as one more move which has escaped me :/

Understandable. I just felt that it was best to have a complete and comprehensive list. Still, as a resource that's true.
So resource then-

viable moves

way to find the best move for a type on any mon but not that helpful otherwise

tagging gamer boy Akumeoy

 

[Martin]

Understandable. I just felt that it was best to have a complete and comprehensive list. Still, as a resource that's true.
So resource then-

viable moves

View attachment 55900

way to find the best move for a type on any mon but not that helpful otherwise

View attachment 55899

tagging gamer boy Akumeoy

Great. i'll add it to the OP later today and credit you. Thanks