Movepool Revisions - Pyroak

[Deck Knight]

Approved and sponsored by tennisace.

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This thread is intended to contain intelligent discussion and commentary by experienced members of the CAP project regarding CAP policy, process, and rules. As such, the content of this thread will be moderated more strictly than other threads on the forum. This is not a Policy Review thread, but requires intelligent posting and serious thought put into every post made.

Introduction:

This is the thread where we will be revising Pyroak's movepool. All aspects of Pyroak's movepool, including TM moves, Move Tutor moves, Level-Up moves, and Egg Moves will be revised according to the limits listed below and the requirements listed in this process guide article. All process details for the revisions can be found in this thread.

Base Stat Rating & Movepool Limits:

This is where the BSR Overall Rating and Movepool Limit are decided. In accordance with this process guide article, all CAPs must have a Overall BSR limit that is balanced by the maximum of that CAP's Very Good Move (VGM) limit. The calculator for the Overall BSR of a Pokemon can be found here.

Original Stats: 120 HP / 70 Atk / 105 Def / 95 SpA / 90 SpD / 60 Spe

Pyroak's Overall BSR: - 317

Pyroak's Resulting Movepool Size Limit: - 75
Pyroak's Resulting VGM Limit: - 35
​

Current Movepool:

Reference: Originoak
Move Count: - 67
VGM Count: - 34
​

Level-Up Moves

Moves: 16
VGM: 6
- Wood Hammer (Heart Scale)*
- Flare Blitz (Heart Scale)*
- Leer
- Pound
- Growl
5. Bullet Seed
9. Focus Energy
13. Ember
17. Growth
21. Leech Seed*
28. Synthesis
35. Energy Ball*
46. Lava Plume*
57. Zap Cannon
63. Flash Cannon*
72. Hyper Beam*

TM/HM Moves

Moves: 45
VGM: 25
TM 05-Roar*
TM 06-Toxic*
TM 09-Bullet Seed
TM 10-Hidden Power*
TM 11-Sunny Day
TM 15-Hyper Beam*
TM 16-Light Screen*
TM 17-Protect*
TM 19-Giga Drain*
TM 21-Frustration
TM 22-SolarBeam
TM 23-Iron Tail
TM 27-Return*
TM 28-Dig
TM 30-Shadow Ball*
TM 31-Brick Break*
TM 32-Double Team
TM 33-Reflect*
TM 34-Shock Wave
TM 35-Flamethrower*
TM 36-Sludge Bomb*
TM 38-Fire Blast*
TM 39-Rock Tomb
TM 40-Aerial Ace*
TM 42-Façade*
TM 43-Secret Power
TM 44-Rest*
TM 45-Attract
TM 50-Overheat*
TM 53-Energy Ball*
TM 56-Fling
TM 58-Endure
TM 61-Will-o-Wisp*
TM 66-Payback*
TM 68-Giga Impact
TM 76-Stealth Rock*
TM 82-Sleep Talk*
TM 83-Natural Gift
TM 86-Grass Knot*
TM 87-Swagger
TM 90-Substitute*
TM 91-Flash Cannon*
HM 04-Strength
HM 06-Rock Smash
HM 08-Rock Climb

Egg Moves

Moves: 6
VGM: 3
Egg Groups: Plant/Monster
DragonBreath
Howl
Mud Bomb
Seed Bomb*
Aromatherapy*
Leaf Storm*

Move Tutor Moves

- None

New Movepool:

Move Count: - 75
VGM Count: -35
​

Level-Up Moves

Moves: 16
VGM: 7

- Wood Hammer*
- Flare Blitz*
- Bullet Seed
- Sweet Scent
5. Growth
9. Ember
13. Leech Seed*
17. Flame Wheel
21. Giga Drain*
28. Fire Spin
36. Petal Dance
42. Iron Defense*
42. Amnesia
48. Synthesis*
54. Lava Plume*
60. Zap Cannon

TM/HM Moves

Moves: 40 (2 repeats)
VGM: 22 (1 repeat)

TM 05-Roar*
TM 06-Toxic*
TM 09-Bullet Seed
TM 10-Hidden Power*
TM 11-Sunny Day
TM 15-Hyper Beam*
TM 16-Light Screen*
TM 17-Protect*
TM 19-Giga Drain*
TM-20 Safeguard
TM 21-Frustration
TM 22-SolarBeam
TM 23-Iron Tail
TM-26 Earthquake*
TM 27-Return*
TM 32-Double Team
TM 35-Flamethrower*
TM 38-Fire Blast*
TM 39-Rock Tomb
TM 42-Façade*
TM 43-Secret Power
TM 44-Rest*
TM 45-Attract
TM 50-Overheat*
TM 53-Energy Ball*
TM 58-Endure
TM 61-Will-o-Wisp*
TM 68-Giga Impact
TM70-Flash
TM75-Swords Dance*
TM 76-Stealth Rock*
TM-80-Rock Slide*
TM 82-Sleep Talk*
TM 83-Natural Gift
TM 86-Grass Knot*
TM 87-Swagger
TM 90-Substitute*
HM 04-Strength
HM 06-Rock Smash
HM 08-Rock Climb

Egg Moves

Egg Groups: Plant/Monster
Moves: 8
VGM: 2

Aromatherapy*
Counter*
Dragonbreath
Grasswhistle
Psybeam
Revenge
Sand Tomb
Water Sport

Legal Egg Combinations:
Aromatherapy + Counter + Psybeam (ADV Parasect)
Aromatherapy + Counter + GrassWhistle (ADV Meganium)
Aromatherapy + GrassWhistle + Water Sport (Roserade)
Counter + Dragonbreath (ADV Sceptile)
Counter + Grasswhistle + Revenge (ADV Cacturne)
Counter + Water Sport (Ludicolo)
Dragonbreath + Sand Tomb (Garchomp through Altaria)

(Note: Grasswhistle is a 4th Gen Only Breed on Sceptile, making Counter + GrassWhistle + Leaf Storm illegal. Any 2 of the 3 is a legal combination.)

Move Tutor Moves

Moves: 16 (4 repeats)
VGM: 7 (4 repeats)

Counter
Double-Edge
Mimic
Snore
Synthesis*
Ancientpower
Earth Power*
Heat Wave*
Iron Defense*
Mud-Slap
Seed Bomb*
Worry Seed
Low Kick*
Block*
Headbutt

Justification:
Pyroak's original design was a sun-sweeper, but after sun-testing auto-sun (permanent or temporary) was deemed too broken. Pyroak's general direction shifted to a defensive Pokemon with a different defensive type, one focused on neutralities rather than resistances. Unfortunately at the time everyone was afraid another Revenankh would be made and subsequently the movepool lacks certain characteristics you would usually see in this type combination. Too much conservatism led to a shell of a movepool that was popular only among a few battlers.. This revision is primarily focused on keeping Pyroak both a) true to type and b) true to the defensive style it was meant to employ. Pyroak's physical movepool is not as great as it once was (or at least is a bit moved around), but it does have a lot of powerful special attacks, reflecting on its return to a higher SpA stat.

Notable VGM additions based on type-move and move-move requirements: Swords Dance (Grass type), Earthquake(Lave Plume), Rock Slide(Lave Plume)

Notable other VGM additions: Counter, Low Kick

Notable VGM retractions: Reflect, Shadow Ball, Brick Break, Sludge Bomb, Signal Beam, Aerial Ace, Payback, Flash Cannon

Notable non-VGM additions: Amnesia, Block, Fire Spin, Grasswhistle, Pin Missile, Psybeam, Sand Tomb, Sweet Scent, Water Sport, Zap Cannon

Summary: Pyroak's playtesting began May 20th, 2008. By all accounts this was a young metagame, in play before Platinum and HGSS came around. This was before even the Garchomp suspect test. Garchomp was OU, Latias was Uber.

These changes are designed with this in mind, to build a Pyroak with a sort of nuanced way of addressing both physical and special threats. Pyroak now has partial and complete trapping and Iron Defense/Amnesia to make use of Battle Armor, which prevents critical hits. Reflect has been removed and basically replaced by Counter. With Garchomp around there are immensely powerful physical attacks being flung around, such that Pyroak's defense is better served as a buffer to Counter Outrages rather than setting up Reflect. Light Screen has been retained to allow passing of a SpD boost, and is much, much more common among Grass-types than Reflect.

I tried to preserve Pyroak's Octillery-esque "cannon" theme with a lot of the non-VGM moves. I ran out of room for Flash Cannon, as I couldn't decide to drop Brick Break or Low Kick. Both are useful generally defensive moves, one removing an opponent's Screens commonly used in Hyper Offense, and the other being a powerful coverage move against several powerful bulky offensive Pokemon like Tyranitar, Heatran, and Snorlax. Brick Break eventually got the boot after a discussion of technical VGM, which Wood Hammer would fall under. While I was removing Brick Break I added in Grasswhistle and Revenge, two non-VGM moves that could be useful. Pyroak will actually be quite good in Gravity now with "Double-Powder" Zap Cannon + GrassWhistle. Revenge is the most viable non-VGM Fighting move available, since Pyroak has the bulk to actually take a hit and make it worthwhile.

Update 07/15/2010: Based on the principle of equivalent VGMs (Acid Armor/Moonlight equivalent) Pyroak has 37 VGM. I will be editing in changes shortly. Stone Edge, Blaze Kick(Fire Punch equivalent), and Double-Edge (better Return on RH Oak) have been removed. Stone Edge has been replaced by Safeguard, Blaze Kick by Petal Dance. I don't consider Revenge to be an Avalanche equivalent; Ice has no real better physical move whereas Revenge is clearly outclassed by multiple fighting moves.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

You only need to cut away 3, since the limit is 35. 35 is the absolute upper limit. Looking over the list, I think Charge Beam, Earth Power, and Magic Coat are probably the least sensible for both what Pyroak's trying to do and his flavor. After that, I'd probably gut Low Kick if you wanted to get it a bit lower. Flash Cannon is cute for flavor, but it can definitely go if you want to get it even lower. I like the addition of Stone Edge, because it gives offensive sets a type coverage bonus, despite that those will be very rare due to base 70 Attack. (It also makes sense) Everything else seems fair.

I've checked this over and it meets all T-M and M-M move requirements, so good job. Just cut off some of the moves - maybe the ones I listed above - and this should be good to go.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Wait did we undo the changes towards Pyroak's stats or are we discussing things as if Pyroak was never revised?

 

[Rising_Dusk]

All previous revisions were entirely undone. This current revision is based on the absolute original Pyroak.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Okay, thanks for clearing things up with me.

Pyroak's playtesting began May 20th, 2008. By all accounts this was a young metagame, in play before Platinum and HGSS came around. This was before even the Garchomp suspect test. Garchomp was OU, Latias was Uber.

....These changes are designed with this in mind

Would it be better if you design your changes based on the Current OU metagame instead of the May 2008 one? I mean it would be more beneficial if we considered the current changes with the OU and CAP metagame.

Edit: Nevermind, miss a very important bit of info within this thread..

Pyroak's original design was a sun-sweeper, but after sun-testing auto-sun (permanent or temporary) was deemed too broken. Pyroak's general direction shifted to a defensive Pokemon with a different defensive type, one focused on neutralities rather than resistances.

The shift towards defenses wasn't entirely general. It was more of combination between a weird side-effect towards the auto-weather testing and the generally lack of direction the earlier CAPs were ran.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Would it be better if you design your changes based on the Current OU metagame instead of the May 2008 one? I mean it would be more beneficial if we considered the current changes with the OU and CAP metagame.

The process details for these revisions, as listed here, directly state that we should make the revisions as if these movepool restrictions were being implemented back in the era of the CAP's original creation. So, while it might be nice if it were designed for the current metagame, it is being objectively designed for the metagame at the time of its creation.

 

[Deck Knight]

Okay, thanks for clearing things up with me.

Would it be better if you design your changes based on the Current OU metagame instead of the May 2008 one? I mean it would be more beneficial if we considered the current changes with the OU and CAP metagame.

This project is not for the faint of heart. If you are chosen to revise one or more of the CAP movepools, I will be breathing down your neck to make sure that it's done right. Furthermore, it will require a lot of research on your part in order to verify that your movepool is meeting the theme of that CAP process, the concept for that CAP, the metagame at that point (including any currently banned Pokemon that may have been allowed then), etc. You may be required to cite your research for review before the movepool is considered complete.

So I created it as if it would be tested in that metagame which is now, technically, the current metagame minus Garchomp (it skipped over the Latias era entirely.)

In any case, since Pyroak is now primarily a special attacker it still has all the important special Fire and Grass moves, as well as Earth Power and Ancientpower, if so inclined. The movepool still works well with Swords Dance (Howl's superior replacement), and tbh I don't think even with a look towards CAP Ubers Payback would be much help. Latias still walls the hell out of it, as does Giratina. The best bet against most of them is Burn/Poison and run, or set up Light Screen.

The shift towards defenses wasn't entirely general. It was more of combination between a weird side-effect towards the auto-weather testing and the generally lack of direction the earlier CAPs were ran.

Yeah, process = lawl at the time. I'm amazed we manage to pill anything together, but Pyroak's offensive stats leave something to be desired generally. In either case this seems closer to Pyroak's intent after weather playtesting.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

When I add up your total moves, I come to 77, not 75. Are you sure that you did your math right?

 

[Deck Knight]

When I add up your total moves, I come to 77, not 75. Are you sure that you did your math right?

Iron Defense and Synthesis are repeated in the Level-up and Tutor List. Pyroak has exactly 75 unique moves. I'll edit in two repeats into the Move Tutor section.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

I gave this a look-over, and it appears to be totally done and great now. It meets all requirements and I'm satisfied with the way it looks like it will complement Pyroak's style. Good job, Deck!