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Munchlax (Gen 4, LC Analysis)'

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by Seven Deadly Sins, Aug 20, 2009.

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  1. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Was fun while it lasted
    is an Artist Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Sep 19, 2008
    Quick thing I noticed:

    Delete part in bold.
  2. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    May 29, 2008
    oh wow how did i miss that

  3. Heysup

    Heysup I'm your rational mind.
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Jun 28, 2008
    @ Eric:

    Selfdestruct shouldn't be mentioned aside from in opinion "It sucks that Pursuit and Selfdestruct are illegal together".

    Besides that, Pursuit outclasses it 150%. If you want to run an attack with more power, use Double-Edge, SD won't help you do much unfortunately.
  4. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
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    Aug 7, 2007
    #littlecup discussion about boomlax (open)
    (edited out unrelated bits)
    <ete> heysup, do you really think Selfdistruct is not helpful?
    [20:25] <ete> Most of the Pokemon Pursuit traps don't actually switch from it any more
    [20:26] <ete> and the punches hit with only 6% less power
    [20:26] <ete> against ghosts
    [20:26] <ete> Boom lets you remove pretty much anything in your way
    [20:26] <ete> Gligar for example
    [20:27] <Iluvtogekiss> wont they switch after you punch
    [20:27] <ete> its possible
    [20:27] <ete> but then they just switched out
    [20:27] <Iluvtogekiss> I suppose
    [20:27] <ete> which is no bad thing
    [20:27] <Iluvtogekiss> yeah
    [20:28] <ete> and, they don't know for sure you don't have Pursuit
    [20:28] <ete> so its still a risk
    [20:28] <Iluvtogekiss> return fire punch boom protect?
    [20:28] <Iluvtogekiss> or eq
    [20:28] <ete> EQ imo
    [20:28] <ete> otherwise Rocks are just :(

    [20:38] <Heysup> am i the only one that thinks Munchlax Pursuit = useless Munchlax?
    [20:38] <Heysup> Munchlax w/o Pursit*
    [20:39] <ete> With a punch it can work around it
    [20:39] <Dubulous> the opponent won't know that you don't have pursuit
    [20:39] <ete> and you can bluff pursuit very well
    [20:39] <Iluvtogekiss> until you use fire punch
    [20:39] <Heysup> but then it doesn't do what it's supposed to do
    [20:39] <Iluvtogekiss> instead of not immediatly pursuitung
    [20:39] <ete> It switches into stuff, hits hard
    [20:39] <ete> not pursuits
    [20:39] <Heysup> when you use your "coverage move"
    [20:39] <Heysup> your opponent will know
    [20:40] <Heysup> and then just switch out and lol
    [20:40] <ete> Then you forced them out

    [20:42] <ete> 161.54% - 196.15%, is Boom on max/max+ Gligar
    [20:42] <Heysup> eric that really doesn't help Munch
    [20:43] <ete> meh, it clears something big out
    [20:43] <ete> in one hit
    [20:43] -->| iss (~DOOFDOOFD@synIRC-11AFDC49.nyc.res.rr.com) has joined #littlecup
    [20:43] <iss> hi people
    [20:43] <Heysup> yea, but it also makes you lose Pursuit
    [20:43] <ete> better under TR
    [20:43] <Heysup> lol
    [20:43] <ete> but still good
    [20:43] <iss> what. boomlax?
    [20:43] <Heysup> Maybe...MAYBE
    [20:43] <Heysup> in the TR set
    [20:43] <ete> Pursuit is not totally needed IMO
    [20:43] <iss> nah
    [20:43] <Heysup> In the TR set you can use Seed Bomb
    [20:43] <Heysup> over Pursuit
    [20:43] <iss> you get totally walled by ghosts without it
    [20:44] <ete> The punches make up for the power
    [20:44] <iss> eh
    [20:44] <ete> they have 6% less power
    [20:44] <ete> >_>
    [20:44] <iss> mhm
    [20:44] <Heysup> Punches don't trap
    [20:44] <ete> no problem
    [20:44] <ete> Munch can counter without trapping
    [20:44] <iss> not really
    [20:44] <Heysup> Munchlax's whole
    [20:44] <Heysup> role
    [20:44] <iss> well
    [20:44] <Heysup> is to trap ghosts
    [20:44] <ete> and they don't know that you lack it
    [20:44] <iss> hmm
    [20:44] <Heysup> they will
    [20:45] <Heysup> after you love tap them with Fire Punch
    [20:45] <iss> when you don't use pursuit
    [20:45] <iss> mhm
    [20:45] <ete> so, when boomlax becomes commonish
    [20:45] <Heysup> when they Sub
    [20:45] <ete> Players with Pursuit will use FP then Pursuit
    [20:45] <iss> hmm
    [20:45] <ete> and catch the ghost
    [20:45] <Dubulous> and be badass
    [20:45] <Heysup> if the people I'm playing against use boomlax
    [20:45] <Heysup> sigh
    [20:45] <iss> sigh...
    [20:45] <Heysup> Lets all use Special Sweepers
    [20:45] <Heysup> and Ghosts
    [20:45] <iss> and just when i was in a good mood because of HAL9000: 12. ISS (1,372.19)
    [20:46] <Heysup> 3 Ghosts + 3 regular Special Sweepers
    [20:46] <ete> nice
    [20:46] <iss> haha
    [20:46] <Heysup> and you win
    [20:46] <iss> lol
    [20:46] <ete> >_>
    [20:46] <Heysup> because Munchlax will explode
    [20:46] <Heysup> while you aren't afraid to switch your ghost in
    [20:46] <iss> gastly/missy/floon/porygon/chinchou/filler
    [20:46] <iss> lol
    [20:46] <Heysup> gligar
    [20:47] <iss> thats physical
    [20:47] <Heysup> yea
    [20:47] <iss> lol
    [20:47] <Heysup> makes Munch blow up
    [20:47] <Heysup> though
    [20:47] <iss> "special gligar"
    [20:47] <ete> if you are in a position where a gligar will 2KO you (pretty often IME), then boom gets rid of a gligar for you.
    [20:47] <iss> mhm
    [20:47] <Heysup> or you switch
    [20:47] <Heysup> >.>
    [20:47] <ete> if you feel like taking the risk
    [20:47] <ete> and have something ground immune left
    [20:47] <Heysup> it's rarely a risk
    [20:47] <Heysup> Misdreavus is good
    [20:47] <Heysup> and scary
    [20:48] <ete> don't always have a ground immune left
    [20:48] <iss> mhm
    [20:48] <Heysup> then hit Gligar with return
    [20:48] <Heysup> or OHKO it with Life Orb Double Edge
    [20:48] <ete> so, you die and it get Oranned back up
    [20:48] <Iluvtogekiss> you can ohko gligar with munchlax.
    [20:48] <ete> or you have to lose your Oran, and use a move with recoil
    [20:48] <Iluvtogekiss> i never knew
    [20:49] <Heysup> I'd rather use a Munchlax without Oran and with recoil
    [20:49] <Heysup> than a fainted munchlax
    [20:49] <Heysup> wouldn't you
    [20:49] <Heysup> ?
    [20:49] <ete> You chose the moveset before you know the situation
    [20:49] <iss> mhm
    [20:49] <ete> Oran is helpful in many other situations
    [20:49] <Heysup> I know
    [20:50] <Heysup> but Selfdestruct isn't
    [20:50] <ete> don't really agree with that
    [20:50] <Heysup> There is more reason to use LO Double Edge than use Selfdestruct
    [20:50] <Heysup> because you aren't useless in most other situations
    [20:50] <ete> it 1KOs practically every non ghost/aron
    [20:50] <Heysup> well not useless
    [20:50] <Sunkern_> yawn
    [20:50] <ete> and you get to keep oran
    [20:50] <Heysup> "less viable"
    [20:50] <ete> hi
    [20:50] <iss> mhm
    [20:50] <Heysup> but Munchlax's primary role is to actually beat the ghosts
    [20:50] <Heysup> :/
    [20:51] <ete> it does
    [20:51] <ete> just, not directly trap
    [20:51] <ete> LO D-E on min/min Gligar: 78.26% - 95.65%
    [20:51] <Heysup> trapping =/= countering against ghosts imo
    [20:51] <Heysup> 41% KO with SR
    [20:52] <ete> Oran Return on min/minGligar: 56.52% - 69.57%
    [20:52] <ete> and max HP Gligar: 50% - 61.54%
    [20:53] <Heysup> max HP gligar is rarely seen
    [20:53] <ete> yea
    [20:53] <ete> but Boom KOs them all, without losing your lovely Oran or recoilless STAB
    [20:54] <iss> cool
    [20:54] <Heysup> you really think losing the ability to trap Ghosts
    [20:54] <Heysup> in a metagame filled with Double Ghost strategies
    [20:54] <Heysup> is a good idea
    [20:54] <Heysup> ?
    [20:54] <Iluvtogekiss> he clearly does
    [20:54] <Iluvtogekiss> thats obvious
    [20:54] <Iluvtogekiss> lol
    [20:54] <Heysup> I'm double checking ^_^
    [20:54] <ete> Its not a "good idea", but Pursuit is not required for Munchy to function.
    [20:54] <iss> ahhh
    [20:54] <iss> HAL9000: 10. ISS (1,379.85)
    [20:55] <Heysup> It is essentially required imo
    [20:55] <ete> If it was not for the punches it would be just silly
    [20:55] <Heysup> use Stunky instead
    [20:55] <ete> but punches make it work
    [20:55] <Heysup> stunky does Munchlaxes job better than
    [20:55] <askaninjask> i use two ghost on most of my teams
    [20:55] <Heysup> since it can carry pursuit + boom
    [20:56] <Heysup> munchlaxes advantage
    [20:56] <ete> (I am going to love using FP+pursuit and tricking you guys into running)
    [20:56] <Heysup> is that it can function as something else
    [20:56] <Iluvtogekiss> heh
    [20:56] <Iluvtogekiss> lol
    [20:56] <ete> Munch has waaaay more bulk
    [20:56] <ete> it can actually switch into stuff like Staryu
    [20:56] <ete> and KO
    [20:57] <Heysup> yea
    [20:57] <Heysup> but that's a secondary concern for Munch
    [20:57] <ete> not on all teams
    [20:57] <ete> say you have Stunky
    [20:57] <Heysup> except maybe TR
    [20:57] <ete> and want something to stop a lot of special sweepers
    [20:58] <ete> Pursuit is not as important now
    [20:58] <ete> its something that changes based on the team
    [20:58] <ete> like a lot of sets
    [20:58] <Heysup> use lickitung
    [20:58] <ete> less bulk
    [20:58] <Heysup> use Mantyke
    [20:58] <ete> no boom
    [20:59] <Heysup> so then what happens when you explode
    [20:59] <Heysup> your opponent sweeps
    [20:59] <Heysup> You can't afford to lose munchlax like that imo
    [20:59] <ete> ..
    [20:59] <iss> boo.
    [20:59] <iss> HAL9000: 11. ISS (1,377.51)
    [20:59] <ete> A lowish HP Munch is not vital
    [20:59] <ete> and blowing something up is good
    [21:00] <Heysup> half the time you won't be able to blow anything up
    [21:00] <Heysup> well
    [21:00] <Heysup> more than half
    [21:00] <Heysup> since so many people run 2 ghosts
    [21:01] <ete> but when it does help, its pretty great, no?
    [21:01] <Heysup> it helps in one situation
    [21:01] <Heysup> that you could think of
    [21:01] <ete> ok, anything that munch can't 1KO
    [21:01] <ete> that threatens to 2KO you at your current health
    [21:01] <Heysup> it usually shouldn't risk staying in on something that it's losing too...
    [21:01] <Heysup> then you are wide open to a lot of Pokemon
    [21:02] <ete> switching out is a big risk to in LC
    [21:02] <ete> This is nice
    [21:03] <ete> it 1Kos normal Bronzor
    [21:03] <ete> without LO
    [21:03] <ete> or SR
    [21:03] <ete> 100% - 120%
    [21:04] <Heysup> how do you do self destruct calcs
    [21:04] <ete> Just set the def to -2
    [21:04] <ete> it is next to def in the damage formula
    [21:04] <Heysup> yea i see
    [21:04] <ete> so, unless def is already dropped it should turn out the same
    [21:06] <ete> And 1KOs Kabuto
    [21:06] <ete> comfortably
    [21:06] <ete> 127.27% - 150%
    [21:06] <ete> (max/min, the msot common spread)
    [21:06] <ete> even no attack munchy does: 100% - 122.73%
    [21:07] <Heysup> it ohkoes wit EQ
    [21:08] <ete> don't think so
    [21:08] -->| RB-Golbat (smogon@every.cave.in.kanto) has joined #littlecup
    [21:08] <ete> yea, 90.91% - 109.09%
    [21:08] <ete> hi rbg
    [21:09] <RB-Golbat> rarw
    [21:09] <ete> with SR it does
    [21:09] <ete> sure it 1KOs Wy as well
    [21:09] <iss> HAL9000: 10. ISS (1,385.13)
    [21:09] <ete> and everything that does not resist it
    [21:09] <iss> HAL9000: 11. ISS (1,378.45)
    [21:09] <Iluvtogekiss> hi golb
    [21:10] <ete> I mean, 1KOing Onix with a resisted attack and no item boost is crazy.
    [21:10] |<-- Heysup has left irc.synirc.net (Ping timeout)
    [21:11] -->| Heysup (~leopalay@synIRC-3BEAF0EB.wp.shawcable.net) has joined #littlecup
    [21:11] =-= Mode #littlecup +h Heysup by ChanServ
    [21:11] |<-- Heysup has left irc.synirc.net (Client exited)
  5. Heysup

    Heysup I'm your rational mind.
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Jun 28, 2008
    I disconnected there, sorry. Anyway, the point about Selfdestruct that I'm trying to prove is that it simply does more harm than good.

    Yes, SD OHKOes Gligar where Return 2HKOes.
    Yes, SD OHKOes Bronzor where Fire Punch 3HKOes.
    Yes, SD OHKOes Krabby where Return 2HKOes.

    SD OHKOes Wynaut where Return doesn't, but this doesn't matter since Wynaut will just Encore you before you can change from using Fire Punch.

    However, these are all missing the point. You lose Pursuit! You are KOing yourself! Munchlax is too viable to to be blowing up on Gligar. Munchlax should almost always switch out, but chances are if you're going to Selfdestruct it's too late; you'll have too little HP to survive a hit. The main point is that SD does more harm than good, especially via losing Pursuit.

    Without Pursuit, you don't get various KOes against Ghosts:

    Vs Gastly:

    19 Atk vs 8 Def & 19 HP (40 Base Power): 14 - 18 (73.68% - 94.74%) (OHKO with SR on average, Guaranteed OHKO after 2 SR switch ins)
    19 Atk vs 8 Def & 19 HP (75 Base Power): 13 - 16 (68.42% - 84.21%) (Nope)

    vs Missy:

    19 Atk vs 12 Def & 22 HP (40 Base Power): 10 - 14 (45.45% - 63.64%) (100% OHKO with or without SR)
    19 Atk vs 12 Def & 22 HP (75 Base Power): 9 - 11 (40.91% - 50.00%) (36% 2HKO with SR, 3HKO w/o SR)

    While the 6% power may seem like "lol damage", it makes a huge difference. When you add this onto the fact that you can't trap Ghosts anymore, I think the verdict is obvious.

    SD can MAYBE be used on a TR set, but other than that....it has no function.

    Also, isn't this move still technically illegal?

    If you want a Ghost counter with Explosion use Stunky.
  6. Articanus


    Dec 2, 2006
    On the CB set could Outrage be an option?

    I've used it to a degree of success, if only because with his enormous attack stat and great neutral coverage it hits a wide range of threats without having to predict too much. OK steels come in, but they do that on return anyway(though truth be told, it doesn't exactly lock you in ._.").

    It may be worth a mention in Other Options, at least
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