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Murkrow (Analysis)

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by Bologo, Nov 1, 2010.

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  1. Bologo

    Bologo Have fun with birds and bees.
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    [​IMG]
    Murkrow

    [Overview]

    • Like Volbeat and Sableye, Murkrow has been given a new lease on life with his new ability, Mischievous Heart. This means he is no longer doomed to NU, and can easily compete with the big boys in the higher tiers.
    • Ironically enough, despite his stats he is one of the bulkier Mischievous Heart users thanks to his NFE status allowing him to hold Evolution Stone.
    • He has a great movepool to abuse Mischievous Heart, and is notably one of the few that has access to a 50% recovery move, a trait only shared by Sableye.
    • He's unfortunately very vulnerable to Taunt if he's not carrying it, and it he accidentally switches in on Taunt, he'll automatically be forced out or to Struggle.
    [SET]
    name: Perish Trapper
    move1: Perish Song
    move2: Mean Look
    move3: Roost
    move4: FeatherDance / Taunt
    item: Evolution Stone
    nature: Sassy
    ability: Mischievous Heart
    evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
    ivs: 0 Atk / 1 Spe

    Set Comments:


    • This is easily the best Perish Trapping set in the game due to priority on every single move as well as acceptable bulk and a recovery move.
    • FeatherDance allows Murkrow to even Perish Trap physically-based Pokemon such as Tyranitar with a little bit of fancy footwork combined with Roost.
    • Roost gives him reliable recovery and allows him to get rid of his regular weaknesses for a turn as well, which is guaranteed due to Mischievous Heart.
    • Taunt is an option over FeatherDance as a better option for taking out walls, but Murkrow will have to watch out for physical attacks.
    • Perish Song with priority means that the opponent's last Pokemon, no matter what it is, is absolutely screwed if your team can survive more than 3 turns from it. It's also good for wrecking Baton Pass chains since it also gets passed.
    Additional Comments:

    • Because Murkrow needs no Speed on this set, absolute minimum Speed can be used to minimize Gyro Ball damage, although 1 Speed IV is a good idea to outspeed Choice Band Scizor's Bullet Punch and FeatherDance it.
    • Protect and Substitute are options on this set as well, but the problem is that they're only going to let Murkrow get one kill at most since he really needs the recovery from Roost. Furthermore, although the kill is guaranteed if you can get Perish Song and Mean Look up, getting both up when you have no FeatherDance or Roost will be tricky. If you have Wish support, however, this can work quite well.
    Teammates & Counters:

    • Chansey holding Evolution Stone is a great teammate because she can not only Wish Murkrow back to full health if he screws up, but she can also take just about any attack. This means that Murkrow can count on her once the Perish Song count goes to 1 to take the final hit.
    • Wobbuffet is an amazing teammate because it means that Murkrow can switch out earlier during the count and still have the opponent trapped because of Wobbuffet's Shadow Tag.
    • Murkrow really appreciates Rapid Spin support because it allows him to take a lot more abuse, and therefore be able to Perish Trap more.
    • U-turn users can also be a pain because they can escape Mean Look, and strong U-turns such as Scizor's will also hurt like hell if they hit Murkrow while he Roosts.
    [SET]
    name: ToxiStaller
    move1: Taunt
    move2: Toxic
    move3: Roost
    move4: FeatherDance
    item: Evolution Stone
    nature: Sassy
    ability: Mischievous Heart
    evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
    ivs: 0 Atk / 1 Spe

    Set Comments:

    • When one looks at Murkrow's stats, this set is probably the last thing that comes to mind, but with Evolution Stone and Mischievous Heart, it's quite hard to take down.
    • Taunt and Toxic allows Murkrow to stall out opponents while blocking recovery, phazing, setup, and opposing Taunts.
    • FeatherDance neuters physical attackers, allowing Murkrow to outstall most of them with ease. Even monsters such as Garchomp can be outstalled by a combination of Taunt, Toxic, and Roost thanks to FeatherDance. It's also a good move to spam if you just need to waste turns and don't want to waste your Roost PP.
    • Roost lets Murkrow do his job several times during the match, and once again, gets rid of his normal weaknesses for a turn, allowing him to get back to reasonable health even in the face of Stone Edges, Ice Beams, and other super-effective attacks.
    Additional Comments:

    • While it may look like this set is outclassed by Sableye, who also boasts Mischievous Heart and recovery but no weaknesses, Sableye has to choose between cutting the opponent's Attack in half (burn) but stall a lot slower in return. Or he can choose Toxic but be battered by physical attacks. Murkrow doesn't have to choose, as FeatherDance + Toxic lets him neuter physical threats as well as poisoning them. The only problem, of course, being that they can switch out of FeatherDance while burn is permanent.
    Teammates & Counters:

    • This set really needs a teammate that can get rid of opposing Steel-types, because Murkrow really can't do anything to them but FeatherDance and Taunt. Magnezone can do the trick, but just watch out for Nattorei and Skarmory who both like to carry Shed Shell.
    • A Rapid Spinner is a good idea, once again, because Murkrow's Stealth Rock weakness makes his stalling job much harder.
    • A teammate that can lay down Toxic Spikes can really help Murkrow out, because that way he doesn't have to waste time using Toxic on every opponent; he can just go straight to the stalling part.
    • Dugtrio can take advantage of the weaker physical attacks coming at Murkrow. If Murkrow gets enough FeatherDances off, Dugtrio can come in and start setting up Subs to safely set up several Claw Sharpens or just kill the opponent.
    • Magic Mirror Espeon is a big pain since he basically bounces back the entire moveset in Murkrow's face.
    [Team Options]

    • Rapid Spin support is good for giving Murkrow more longevity to take attacks such as Tyranitar's Stone Edge after a FeatherDance, or Choice Specs Latios's Draco Meteor, allowing him to Roost them off after.
    • Trappers can be good teammates for Murkrow, especially on the Perish Trapper, because it means he doesn't even need to bring the count to 1 by himself.
    • A Grass-type teammate can help against Erufuun, who can also be a general pain for Murkrow due to having a faster priority Taunt and commonly carrying Substitute, which can ruin him.
    [Optional Changes]

    • Haze with priority can potentially save your team from an otherwise certain loss. Also, Baton Pass recipients will be completely ruined as well.
    • Confuse Ray can be really annoying for the opponent, and like Haze, it can potentially stop sweeps with the added bonus of the opponent slitting its wrist 50% of the time.
    • Thunder Wave can be useful with priority, but it might be better left to the other Mischievous Heart users.
    • Torment is an option with Protect as a variation of the ToxiStaller.
    [Counters]

    • Life Orb Deoxys-A is one of the few attackers that Murkrow really can't outstall, because while its attacks won't OHKO, they make it way too hard for Murkrow to Roost after. Let something else handle this.
    • Kerudio, although it's not yet available on wifi, is a counter because of Mystery Sword hitting Murkrow's physical defense, yet being unaffected by FeatherDance.
    • Metagross is a very good counter because he's not only immune to FeatherDance, but he can give Murkrow quite a concussion with Meteor Mash.
    • Stealth Rock is a big pain for Murkrow if you can't get rid of it.
    • The fast Mischievous Heart users, particularly Erufuun, can spell bad news for Murkrow unless they switch in on Taunt.
    • Really strong STAB Fighting attacks as well as Bug attacks can hurt Murkrow because he'll have trouble Roosting those off due to them being super-effective while he Roosts.
  2. Bologo

    Bologo Have fun with birds and bees.
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    I'm done.

    A few notes for people reading this analysis, since yes, Murkrow is an incredibly weird pokemon, and it's using sets that are completely ironic when you look at its stats:


    • Yes, Mischievous Heart Murkrow has been released and is perfectly legal on wifi. Both genders have been found, so there's no confusion there.
    • Roost + Perish Song + FeatherDance is a perfectly legal combination. They're all received by breeding female DW Murkrow with a Male 4th Gen Altaria that knows Roost, Perish Song, and FeatherDance and then transferring it over.
    • The ToxiStall set looks especially weird on a pokemon like Murkrow, but seriously, don't say that it sucks without even trying it for a few matches, because while it actually does require fancy footwork to get past strong physical attackers, but the fact that it can is a testament to how strong Mischievous Heart is. Also, FeatherDance really lets it get past a lot of shit.
    • I actually tested both of these sets quite extensively over the past few days, so please don't poo-poo the sets just because "it's Murkrow." This guy was so much fun to test because I can just picture the opponent's reaction as their entire team gets outstalled, or key members of their team get trapped by Murkrow. I even faced a few people who wanted to try out Murkrow after getting fucked by it. :] Just keep in mind that Murkrow's a pokemon that does have a bit of a learning curve to it, so it probably won't be perfect the first time you try it. I thought it sucked for the first few matches that I used it, but I started getting used to it, and now it's one of the MVPs on my team.
    • Also, sorry this is a pretty long analysis. I just figured that with a weird pokemon like Murkrow, the more explanation, the better.
    That's all I have to say, since I know those are common things that people might say after reading this analysis.
  3. Rising_Dusk

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    You need to add a link to a pokedex entry for Murkrow before this can be marked as done.
  4. Bologo

    Bologo Have fun with birds and bees.
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    Oops, my bad. I added the link.
  5. Darkmalice

    Darkmalice Like a facepalm, but better
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    Why does Murkrow have Sassy and 1 Spe IVs when he's not running any attacking moves? There's no need to lower his Spe. The low Spe isn't going to help against Trick Room teams thanks to Mischievous heart. Spe at least has use so it can move before some priority users, which are much, much more common than Trick Room + priority users.

    Otherwise, I like these sets a lot :)

    [EDIT] Atk has some use only in the event of Struggle. SpA is completely useless. Nature should be Careful and all IVs 31.
  6. Lee

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    I assume to minimise Gyro Ball damage?

    You mention Kerudio a few times here even though he's an unreleased event Pokemon (and Mystery Sword is an unreleased move too).
  7. Bologo

    Bologo Have fun with birds and bees.
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    Yeah, it's to minimize Gyro Ball damage. I should probably mention that. The 4 main Gyro Ball users (Steelix, Forretress, Nattorei, Bronzong) will not have an easy time doing damage to this thing. I've honestly not found a reason for having 31 IV of Speed on Murkrow. He still outspeeds Roopushin and Scizor with 1 Speed IV. Being faster than Techniloom (don't know if this is allowed on wifi yet) is actually a bad idea. Having 31 Speed IVs will make it so you can't Roost on his Mach Punches because Murkrow will be weak to them during the Roost. However, if you can catch him with the FeatherDance, his Mach Punches won't hurt that much, and you can Roost safely against them. If you're using the ToxiStall set you can beat Breloom this way. Same thing against Technitop.

    I guess I could take out the Kerudio mentions as well, but I really feel like should at least give him a small mention and then say he's not available on wifi yet, because on PO, he can really fuck with Murkrow.

    EDIT: Alright, I took out the Kerudio mentions, but I left a small mention in the counters section.
  8. Lee

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    For reference sake, a 1 Spe IV Sassy Murkrow takes 105 BP from Nattorei's Gyro Ball for an average of 47%. A Murkrow with a neutral nature and 31 Spe IV takes 136 BP for an average of 61%. Seems worthwhile, although it would make me feel uneasy around Scizor. Really cool sets btw!

    Edit: mention Metagross as a counter? Immune to Featherdance and Toxic and OHKOs with Meteor Mash.
  9. Nails

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    Attack should be 0, because of potential confusion damage. Not saying it's likely, just that it can't hurt at all, and it has the potential to help.

    Sets look really cool. For reference, you should include stuff it can trap. It can trap chansey and blissey, but skarmory/hippo/pert can phaze it, and it looks like more or less dead weight against offensive teams, as you have to: set up a mean look, they get a free hit. Featherdance, they get another hit at 50% power. Roost, they get a free turn. If you've gotten to this point you won't be stopped, but living 1.5 hits from anything looks tough, even with 50% boosted defenses. The fact that it takes 3 turns to kill them raises concerns too; you can't trap forry for example, as it gets 3 free layers.

    Plus, for blissey/chansey killing, I can run my good old sub/toxic shandera (once dw is released >_>) and it has a lot more utility outside killinga few walls. Please cut my post to ribbons and tell me where I'm wrong because I'd love for murkrow to be viable in ou. I just see a bunch of issues for it.

    Edit; comments are for the perish trapper.
  10. Bologo

    Bologo Have fun with birds and bees.
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    You'd think it'd be difficult to Perish Trap offensive pokemon, but it's seriously not. Like I said, you have to use fancy footwork. There's nothing saying you have to use Mean Look and then Perish Song right away.

    For instance, I've been able to easily Perish Trap Doryuuzu in the sand before by just being careful. If he comes in on one of your moves, FeatherDance him during his Rock Slide. Then Roost on the Rock Slide which will be doing 1/4 of its normal damage thanks to Roost + FeatherDance. You can FeatherDance again, or if you think he's going to use Swords Dance, Mean Look him. Now keep up the cycle until you feel it's safe to use Perish Song. That's the way I beat most physical attackers, including stuff like the previously mentioned Doryuuzu, Tyranitar, Garchomp, and stuff like that. FeatherDance is there to not only take on physical threats, but also as a buffer for if you trap something dangerous like Tyranitar. It's seriously really helpful.

    You wouldn't really want to try and trap Skarmory, because they run Shed Shell almost all the time, so you'd just be wasting PP. Stuff like Burunkeru (unless it runs Taunt) and pretty much every bulky Water is going to fall pretty easily thanks to Murkrow's ability to Roost off any of his weaknesses. Like you said, Chansey and Blissey get boned. Non U-turning/Baton Pass Celebi can't do much to defend itself. Honestly, I've found that most non-Taunt, non-phaze walls are easily destroyed by this. Though yeah, if they're able to set up hazards, they're probably not something you want to deal with. Kind of like Wobbuffet when it's trying to make a decision on what to trap and Encore.

    However, like I said in the set, it is possible to run Taunt over FeatherDance if you want this to be more of a buffer against Stall teams. It will not be a good time for a stall team if they have to take this thing on with Taunt, because they won't be able to do much to it. Just keep in mind that it actually will be a lot harder to take on offensive teams, and you won't be able to maneuver around everything that comes into your Mean Look. It's kind of a tough decision to make though...honestly, it really depends on what your team needs. If you need some insurance against Stall teams, use Taunt. If you need a trapper to take out bulky offense or even higher offense, FeatherDance is better. Just keep in mind that every pokemon has 99 problems but a bitch ain't one...

    However, with that in mind, Perish Song will always be useful in one way or another. Just by the sheer effectiveness of its game-ending ability on the final opponent, especially with priority, it always gives this set something it can do.

    Also lol, your Sub/Toxic Shandera is nice, but that doesn't make this set any less effective. Just like this won't fit on every team, Sub/Toxic Shandera won't fit on every team either. :]

    To be honest, I actually kind of want to put the ToxiStaller ahead of the Perish Trapper because I've had more success with it. I am going to keep the Perish Trapper as an entire set though, because that's a niche that Murkrow can do effectively...I've never actually been able to pull off a Perish Trap with any other pokemon than Murkrow, because he just has the perfect tools to do it.

    I'll put Attack IVs to 0 as well.

    EDIT: Done. I switched the order of the two sets, and I put 0 Attack IVs on each.

    One more thing. lol I noticed you said you really want Murkrow to be viable in OU, but if you don't like the Perish Trapper, then seriously try out the ToxiStall. If you don't think PerishTrap is viable in OU, ToxiStall sure as hell is. It does have a bit of a learning curve, but if you have something to take on Steels, this thing completely ruins a lot of teams, stall and offense alike. xD

    Metagross is being put in as a counter too.
  11. Nails

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    Ok. I guess I kind of underestimate murkrow's bulk. Also, the set uses a ton of surprise value to work, which is an issue, but not a huge one. Because I'm curious, how much does a krow take from dory's rock slide?

    Like I said, the fact that there's a discussion about murkrow's ou viability is just fantastic, gj with the sets. Also, although you can't mention it bc of smogon's dw policy, shandera traps steels, making it a great partner to the toxic staller.
  12. Lee

    Lee @ Thick Club
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    http://cherubi.com/tools/calculators/damage/

    Jolly Dory Rock Slide vs 252/0 Stone'd Murkrow = 68% - 80%
    -2 Jolly Dory Rock Slide vs 252/0 Stone'd Murkrow = 34% - 40%
  13. Bologo

    Bologo Have fun with birds and bees.
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    Well, I admit that Murkrow's physical bulk doesn't exactly start out good, but FeatherDance just has such ridiculous utility that it allows him to outstall physical stuff. I was even surprised at some of the shit it could stall out. A smile came on my face the first time Murkrow stalled out a big bad Garchomp. xD

    Murkrow takes 68.5% - 80.9% from Jolly max Attack Dory's Rock Slide if there's no FeatherDance and no Roost (assuming BalloonDory). After a FeatherDance, you can stall it out pretty well since Dory will be doing 1/4 of that damage as you Roost, so you'll gain the health back really fast. I mean, it's probably not the best idea to switch right into Doryuuzu if you think he's going to Rock Slide as you come in, because if Stealth Rock is up, you're the one who'll die (and it's just bad playing). However, if Doryuuzu gets any bright ideas about coming in on you while you Mean Look, he's not only dead, but the opponent may have just lost their main sweeper. The same goes for if you come in on Earthquake (as long as it doesn't have 2 SDs or more you should be fine...you still have a chance if it only got 1 SD up although you're going to have to be even more careful).

    Also, if I was allowed to mention Shandera as a partner, I sure as hell would. I'm partnering Murkrow with Shandera on the DW ladder, and oh man...he works so damn well with both sets. With the Perish Trapper, you don't even need to get the counter down to 1 with Murkrow since Shandera has its own Shadow Tag. Couple this with Wish Chansey, and you have one hell of a death squad.
  14. Nails

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    Losing ss damage every turn sucks; they can stall you out by just clicking sd every turn (you featherdance, lose 6.25%, no change in stats). This assumes they know what they're doing ofc, if they attack your odds get a lot better. You also can't toxic stall it because it's a steel type, so it looks like it beats you. That said; bulky krow is bulky, looks way cool that a base 135 attack pokemon can't ohko you with a super effective attack when you aren't investing in defense at all.
  15. Bologo

    Bologo Have fun with birds and bees.
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    He does beat the ToxiStaller, but the Doryuuzu user is going to have some serious mind-games to play if you're a Perish Trapper, because strangely enough, the odds are against Doryuuzu. Basically, you have to sometimes take a risk and interrupt the FeatherDance, Roost, attack, or SD cycle and throw in a Perish Song or a Mean Look somewhere in there. This causes some very serious mindgames, and when you think about it, if he's forcing Dory to SD while he's getting FeatherDanced continuously, Murkrow is the one in control. If Dory switched into one of Mean Look, Perish Song, or FeatherDance, he loses.
  16. Nails

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    Well, the point I'm making is if he continuously spams sd, you will eventually have to roost once due to ss, allowing him to get a +2, at which point you can be hit by a rock slide for 60+% at any time, except you don't know when that is. If you randomly roost, you run the very large risk of giving him another sd. Basically, because of the fact that you take 6% every turn from sandstorm, he stalls you out.

    Tldr; the fact that you have to roost eventually because of sandstorm damage means that he will eventually get a boost, as that one turn you can't featherdance on his sd.

    It's not really mind games for the guy with dory, it's "spam swords dance until the other guy dies because he can't touch me".
  17. Zebstrika

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    Also note that Murkrow has up to 3 priority attacks (they all depend on the situation). Sucker Punch is the first, though it can be combined with Taunt to make sure it never fails. Pursuit has priority on a switching opponent. Last, Mirror Move is considered a non-attacking move regardless of what move is mimicked. Mirror Move is quite unreliable, but unlike other users of this sort of move, it is predictable.
  18. Bologo

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    None of those moves are particularly good on Murkrow. Murkrow really needs to invest in its defenses with Evolution Stone to have any sort of niche in OU. If he's not abusing Mischievous Heart, he's worthless.

    If you want to use Murkrow offensively, use Honchkrow, Absol, or Kirikizan. Besides a priority-Taunt, they play an offensive role much better than Murkrow.

    --

    On another note, because I'm going back home on the 17th, I'll have some time to do the formal write-up for this then, after I try out a couple more strategies for Murkrow.

    I'm not going to add any new sets, but I want to see if it's worth pairing up the Perish Trapper with Dual Screeners so that there's no need to run FeatherDance so you can have Taunt. This should theoretically let Murkrow a) pick off a stall team's members one-by one since they're vulnerable to Taunt and can't do shit to it under Dual Screens. b) Offensive teams will have a lot of trouble killing Murkrow under Screens since even TTar's Stone Edge can't OHKO. With this, he should be able to get several kills on against an offensive team too. Of course, I wouldn't be using the 252 HP/252 SpD spread, since he won't have FeatherDance anymore, so he'll need some Defense EVs.

    If anyone has any ideas for a Haze set, I might include it, although a set completely dedicated to Haze seems like a bit of a waste.
  19. deiphobus

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    Too bad Whirlwind isn't pushed up to a +1. That would be really broken though.
  20. Zebstrika

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    What I haven't seen said much is Murkrow's ability to stop sweepers and revenge killers, especially in 2vs2 and 3vs3. It has priority Haze and Thunder Wave, and in 2vs2 and 3vs3, priority Postpone means unless the target is faster and is using a priority move, Murkrow is sure to get it off, allowing frail sweepers and revenge killers to get KO'd by an ally. Featherdance can stop physical sweepers to an extent, too.
  21. ParaChomp

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    Murkrow has Mischievous Heart as its Dream World ability while Honkrow has Overconfidence. Just throwing it out there for those who want to know.
  22. Dark Pulse

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    what about using something like R/S's old Perish trap set?

    Mean Look
    Perish Song
    Protect
    Sub/Taunt

    if you think about it, switch on something that can't counter the Toxistall set (or at least doesn't like toxic damage) or you manage to Sub up on a status move, then Mean look the switcher (probably will be something steel type to absorb toxic, which they assume it has) you can Perish (while 90% chance losing your sub) Protect, sub again, and switch... it works surprisingly well now, and all you need is Wish support to get a second chance to kill something.
  23. Dark Pulse

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    EDIT: oh, you already had that... but I think sub may be better, but it's up to you
  24. calze6

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    For toxic staller, I think that substitute or protect is definitely worth a mention as it can stall out the turns of sweepers that lack priority. Haze is also definitely worth a mention resetting the stats of sweepers that have too many boosts.

    Protect should also be mentioned on the perish trapper set too.
  25. Bologo

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    I'm dropping my reservation for Murkrow unfortunately. Like I said in the Chansey thread, I don't have the time or dedication to write a full analysis.

    Whoever wants Murkrow can take it, but I'd highly recommend that you have a lot of experience using Murkrow if you want to take him. The reason being that he's probably going to need some logs to impress the QCers, and although he's quite usable in OU, he's a pokemon with a bit of a learning curve, especially since he has massive 5 moveslot syndrome. I'd also recommend posting some calcs too if it helps your case.

    Just as a note, I decided to switch the ToxiStaller and Perish Trapper's position (yet again). It would appear that the ToxiStaller doesn't work as well as the Perish Trapper against more skilled players, while the Perish Trapper is at least guaranteed to wreck something (barring hax).

    Anyway, I hope whoever takes Murkrow does him justice. :]
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