Murkrow, Meditite, and Swagger have been banned

[blarajan]

Ok well based off of the nomination votes: MURKROW AND MEDITITE have been nominated as suspects. They will be the topic of discussion for this suspect thread. I did not combine the votes for "Berry Juice" and "Sturdy + Berry Juice" or something, as the motivation behind each vote is different.

HOWEVER, I did combine the votes of Prankster / Swagger, Swagger / Foul Play, etc as everyone is requesting the same thing...get rid of that bullshit. The combination of votes in fact eclipsed Meditite in the voting (thank you very much GoldenSandslash15 for counting the votes, I love you). But I don't really think a discussion on Prankster / Swagger or whatever the fuck makes any sense. That is why Swagger will be voted on by the LC Council after the discussion thread--but do not discuss it here. There is no point, and I would rather us actually talk about Murkrow and Meditite. Limit discussion to those Pokemon.

list of people who got suspect reqs and can be selected for council

Sparktrain
Heysup
ViktorNrv
ashiemore
Egyptian
Corporal Levi
Cherub Agent
Champion Fizz
Zeriloa
Kiba Roserade
Starmaster
Funkasaurus
Fran17
PidgeyFTW
TheFenderStory
atomicllamas
Foster
Figufgyu
Pinoy Pwnage
zezetel
macle
Scene
Alexxi
Im not lOlpO
Nineage
Picollo
GlassGlaceon
Alphose_Elric
jas61292
shmeur
Orphic
srk1214
athleteandy1
Temporaryanonymous
Stinson
Calloflochie
Goddess Briyella
Austinf
BurgerCarbink
Max Carvalho
kostic
dcae
Passion
Hawkstar
DeathxShinigami
Hidden Power
Kappaten
Legitimate Username
Commissar White
migetno1
apt-get
Kingserperior
supercoven94
AnybodyAgrees
Dr Ciel
TROP
Sparkygirl
youngjake93
radianthero156
Raiza.
fitzy72
The Quasar
Fruitdealer
kjnm
treenvo
galbia
The Unlucky One
Corkscrew
Marisson
n0b
QuoteCS
Smooth Phantom
Sweep
Toa Tahu
Inflikted
rhinopatomus
Artemis Fowl
tivanenk
made2joke
Blkvox
Sae Sae
Lightning Luxray
boo836
Acedia
trev
fliprushman
Prime Legionnaire
Mr. NudistoBeach
Svalkenaeres
Expulso
Prem
Merritt
The Avalanches
SnoopysWorld
eggabubu8e
Unitas
Pumphead
Artemisa
Mozz
Fyshies
Sidneyfluff
Magcargo
Ultimathunder
Cutie Caitlyn
Pokemasta77
mysterious Vincent
dsr95
Safes
blizzardy
Amp Pharaohs
Ranger Mike
Shane Grace
Slashari
Caledrith
Adam Lambert
Metal Sonic
Salkovon
Chieliee
Boltaway
Jukain
Zirpeise
tigerton
queenlucy
rabby
THE MASTER OF LC

Thank you very much Slashari for compiling this for me. If your name is not on this list and it should be, please tell me immediately. Everyone on this list (besides council members) will receive .5 of a vote for the Tiering Contributor badge. If you are chosen for the rotating council / are on the permanent council, you will receive a full vote. However, you can still discuss in this thread if you are not among that list.

Members of the permanent council:

Goddess Briyella prem macle apt-get Heysup Corkscrew

I will select ONE member among those who qualified for the permanent council, and FIVE members among those who qualified for the rotating council (these members will receive a full vote for the Tiering Contributor badge). If you believe you should be given consideration for either council based off of things besides discussion in the thread, please PM me before I choose council members.

It takes 7 votes to ban something.

Discuss these questions regarding the suspects:

1) Is Murkrow / Meditite broken?
2) Is Murkrow / Meditite making Little Cup not fun?
3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?

If 1 is satisfied, then 2 and 3 don't matter. If 1 is not satisfied, then the latter qualities in tandem might be worth banning it.

DISCUSS AWAY. Post in this thread with as many (good) replays as you want, explanations of Murkrow / Meditite as to whether it is broken or not, or your defense for it. Use Murkrow / Meditite's stats and qualities as a basis for your arguments--I do not want to see posts that end at "Murkrow and Meditite are really strong" Well made posts outlining your reasoning, well made responses to other people's posts, and just overall discussion in this thread is going to be very much taken into consideration when I decide the council members.

Discussion will be open until like Friday April 18th at night time EST, or until I feel it's winding down and I can choose council members. Don't wait until the end to message me about any special qualifications you may have, else if I have already chosen council members before receiving your message, it probably won't be considered.

 

[dsr95]

I'll post later, for now, fix my name... It's not dsr75

 

[chimp]

I'm gonna try and lay low this time so other people can get rotating council.

Anyway, I'm not entirely sure what to think of meditite. Its probably the strongest pokemon in the tier, but I don't think thats a reason to kick it. I think there is a good deal of pokemon who can stop it by outspeeding or just by being really bulky, like Misdreavus, Spritzee, Honedge, and even Solosis. It can opt to go for choice scarf but then it just dies to everything.

I can still see it going though. Its got great coverage, which makes prediction essential when facing it. Its also got Drain Punch which greatly increases its survivability despite its mediocre defenses. I do think it deserves some more time in the metagame, but I'm curious to see some arguments for or against it.

Checks/Counters

• Misdreavus is almost always faster than it and can burn or outright KO with shadow ball. With a correct prediction, you can come in on a Drain Punch, and even bulkier sets can take a Psycho Cut.
  
  
• Murkrow/Fletchling outspeed and destroy it.
  
  
• Spritzee has the bulk and typing to survive a decent amount of hits, including Bullet Punch. It also has a healing source to do so reliably. Snubbul works well to, but has no recovery which really hinders it.
  
  
• Honedge, bar the Fire Punch, can take most of which Meditite can throw at it and retaliate with Ghost STAB.
  
  
• Psychic types, while admittedly rare, resist both of Meditite's STAB. Solosis and Elgyem can handle meditite and have a good healing source.

Murkrow on the other hand, should go. Its just incredibly powerful on every front. Reaching 19 Attack, Special Attack, AND Speed is just way too overwhelming for this meta. The only pokemon capable of handling are Chinchou, Rock-types, and, Archen; the former two only if its not running HP grass (even Dark Pulse works really well.) And the only way for these pokemon to do so reliably is if they are at full health. Combine this with Fletchling and other high-powered flying types that Chou wants to counter and...well Murkrow's job becomes much much easier. Its needless to say that Brave Bird annihilates everything. Sure, recoil is there, but with berry juice it becomes much less of a burden.

Additionally, if Murkrow goes, then Swagplay or Parahax or whatever its called goes to. The only other user I can think of is purrloin, and purrloin is a lot easier to handle as opposed to Murkrow.

Checks/Counters

• Chinchou, but only if its near full HP. Life Orb Krow can 2KO with Brave Bird followed by HP Grass.
  
  
• Archen. Probably the best counter if it runs Berry Juice, and even in defeatist can still put the hurt on Krow.
  
  
• Magnemite, but only if Krow doesn't have Heat Wave (it will)
  
  
• Rocks are generally the best since they both resist flying and have generally high defenses. Tirtouga is great since it has sturdy, but falls to HP Grass. Dwebble also has sturdy but is only neutral to flying so hazards will ruin it. Onix is 2KO'd by Dark Pulse and Nosepass must be at full health, which is difficult since it has not recovery.
  
  
• Snover can't switch in, of course, but can outspeed with a scarf and KO with Ice STAB. This goes for most scarfed pokemon who can pry on Krow's weaknesses, provided they have decent bulk/have a good deal of HP remaining, because Sucker Punch deals a lot of damage.

Thanks to Hidden Power
I'd tag him but idk how to do that funky exclamation

 

[Kavatika]

reserving this post :)

 

[Heysup]

Murkrow

As usual, the Pokemon that requires less explanation will be my first topic. Mukrow, simply put, is too strong, too fast, and has too good of a movepool. 2HKOing anything in the tier is, in my opinion, NOT a bannable quality, however; Murkrow's version of it is. Any time a Pokemon can use one move, in this case Murkrow's Life Orb Brave Bird does enough damage that it can consequently outspeed and KO almost any Pokemon with its followup move of Heat Wave, Dark Pulse, or Sucker Punch (for Scarf Chinchou/Magnemite). A Pokemon like LO Abra or Houndour can almost do this, but it can't just do it with Dark Pulse or Fire Blast, it needs prediction. Murkrow needs very little. In addition to KOing almost anything, it has the power to force most "good" Pokemon out because it OHKOes and outpaces so many of them (such as Mienfoo, Timburr, and the like). Without outplaying and set up, there should not be a common scenario where you know the exact move you're going to use, your opponent knows the exact move you're going to use, and cannot stay in or switch out without guaranteeing a KO.

On top of this, Murkrow is incredibly hard to revenge kill because of STAB Sucker Punch. It is not enough to outpace Murkrow, but you need enough damage to KO it (it's frail, but not as frail as most) and you need enough physical bulk to survive. The list of Pokemon that fit the criteria is quite limited.

Prankster + Thunder Wave sets are simply cop out strategies. It's annoying and can be effective with team support but otherwise I'm not too concerned about a set with 25% effectiveness when you could use a set with about 100% effectiveness. The mixed set is enough to make me want to ban Murkrow.

Meditite

I don't recall a time where I have been more on the fence about a Pokemon. Like Murkrow, it's almost impossible to switch into it, but it requires a small amount of prediction rather than almost 0. Something cannot be judged based on another suspect though (for example, what would happen when comparing something like Yanma to Scyther or like, Garchomp to Rayquaza, etc). Still, Meditite's weakness comes from that, as well as its middling Speed. However, it really excels with its incredible longevity and versatility. The best defense is a good offense in Meditite's case. It's got respectable enough defenses to switch in and is often hard to outright KO where as it's almost assuredly going to KO back. When it KOes back with Drain Punch, it essentially takes advantage of its low HP:high defense ratio and heals itself to full HP - with each HP counting for more than your average Pokemon. With Gligar gone, it also does not suffer from as much four moveslot syndrome, not requiring Ice Punch. Drain Punch, Psycho Cut, and Thunder Punch hit almost everything except Exeggcute (and Honedge can take a few Thunder Punches) but aside from those two things, it's coverage is good. This leaves room for Fake Out or Bullet Punch, which hurt a lot from 28 Attack.

I'm convinced Meditite is one of the best Pokemon ever to be in LC, but that does not mean it should be banned, but it also does not mean it shouldn't. Convince me one way or another please.

 

[Merritt]

Hey, good thing I already had something in defense of Meditite typed out.

In answer to question 1, is Meditite broken? I will discuss why I believe Meditite is not a rampaging beast hellbent on killing your entire team and everything you've ever loved, through an analysis of its counters/checks

Meditite really doesn't have many completely, 100% counters. However, you'll find that that is also true of many, many other potent threats in LC. What it does have are good-to-great checks, so while Meditite may restrict teambuilding if you run a "self-imposed challenge" of not using any S, A, or B rank mons (based off the LC Viability Rankings), it has multiple checks up there. A fairly obvious one is Misdreavus. Barring the less common scarf set, Misdreavus can either 2HKO with shadow ball or burn(*1).

Another check is Mixkrow (*2), although if Murkow is banned the point is moot, but as it stands it remains a check. As has been stated, we are not in the habit of banning things that might become broken if X is banned.

Other usable checks/counters include Spritzee (full counter*4), Honedge (who, if Meditite lacks Fire Punch, is an extremely solid check*3), Snubbull (who is once again a counter*5), Cottonee (who has a wild card status due to encore- it all depends on what move it comes in on. However, it can cripple Meditite with memento in the worse case scenario), Vullaby (who counters non Ice/Thunder Punch Meditite*6), Physical Taillow (check even without burn*7), and even Fletchling is more likely to check than not (*8), and more (including Wynaut) that I'm too lazy to look up (not going to check every single possible check/counter in the game).

Yes, Meditite can switch out of any of these, but that's true of essentially every single Pokemon in the meta. (I shouldn't even need to say that, but it's actually been used as an argument before.) Although Meditite is absolutely a potent threat, that's also true of many other things. In addition, if you lack a solid check, Meditite's slowness and lack of recovery outside of Drain Punch (lol recovertite) make it possible to kill over time. Meditite is unlikely to destroy your entire team quickly.

For Question 2, is Meditite making LC not fun? I do not believe so. There are no huge outpourings of rage-induced hate for the thing, unlike previously banned things, and the other suspect(s). In fact, there's a layer of strategy added to the game with Meditite, as you are forced to consider how to best take down this threat while still keeping your win condition intact, instead of pointing your sweeper at the other team and trying to 6-0 them.

Question 3 I do not have a clear answer for. On a new person's team, it allows them to gain experience in how the metagame works, but it can absolutely be disheartening to be swept by Meditite when you're getting started.

Star #s

1) 236 SpA Misdreavus Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 14-20 (73.6 - 105.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
1) 196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Psycho Cut vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 12-15 (52.1 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

2) 236 Atk Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Meditite: 26-32 (136.8 - 168.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

3) 196+ Atk Honedge Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Meditite: 12-14 (63.1 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
3) 196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Honedge: 12-16 (57.1 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Swords Dance will make the follow up shadow sneak an OHKO)

4) 12 SpA Spritzee Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 14-18 (73.6 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (no move of Meditite can 2HKO)

5) -1 196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Psycho Cut vs. 0 HP / 116 Def Eviolite Snubbull: 7-10 (31.8 - 45.4%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
5) 196+ Atk Snubbull Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Meditite: 18-24 (94.7 - 126.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

6) 196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Thunder Punch vs. 116 HP / 76+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 14-18 (56 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
6) 76 Atk Vullaby Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Meditite: 18-24 (94.7 - 126.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

7) 236 Atk Taillow Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Meditite: 20-26 (105.2 - 136.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
7) 196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Bullet Punch vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Taillow: 9-11 (42.8 - 52.3%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO

8) 196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Meditite: 18-24 (94.7 - 126.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

Note that these are my opinions, and that I fully expect people to disagree with me.
I'll talk about Murkrow later, but my stance on that is absolutely pro-ban.

 

[Corporal Levi]

why are so many people above me reserving posts what is the purpose of doing so and what am I missing out on

Murkrow -
I don't know if I can say whether Murkrow is outright broken; although it has a huge movepool to back up its ridiculous power, its frailty without an eviolite severely hinders it. Although I don't think there is any one Pokemon that can actually counter Murkrow after Stealth Rock, it is, after all, a wall breaker, and if there are Pokemon that can outright wall a wall-breaker regardless of the wall-breaker's moves, it probably wouldn't be a very effective wall-breaker. The Life Orb set is able to 2HKO the entire metagame after Stealth Rock, a combination of Life Orb and Brave Bird recoil tends to wear it down quite quickly. Other variants lack the raw power to 2HKO bulky Pokemon such as Spritzee and Porygon, who are usually able to OHKO in return due to Murkrow's aforementioned defenses. This isn't to say Murkrow is anything short of top tier, of course. It still hits the second highest speed tier and has twin base 85 offenses, making it simultaneously a brilliant sweeper and wall-breaker. An enormous supportive and offensive movepool and an irritating ability in Prankster means its versatility is definitely a strong point as well. Even though four moves means Murkrow can't cover everything at once, I usually find that four moves is enough for a specific role Murkrow is trying to play.
However, Murkrow absolutely dominates the metagame, and as such, I do like the idea of a metagame without it. Such a fast and powerful Pokemon does restrict teambuilding by a fair bit; a good switch-in to it is almost mandatory for any competitive team, and these are quite limited. Murkrow also has methods to break through specific counters, such as LO HP Grass for defensive Chinchou (although this usually fails to 2HKO without some prior damage) and berry juice + substitute + thief for Munchlax. I would, however, like to mention that this is nothing like Swirlix's case, because both defensive Chinchou and Munchlax are undoubtedly very potent Pokemon in their own rights, compared to, say, Koffing. Other than that, almost no team becomes worse with Murkrow; the combination of damage and utility it is able to offer is unmatched.
I don't know of very many people who have decided against playing LC because of Murkrow, but I have seen people complain about a stale metagame and Murkrow hampering team building might be one of the causes for this. As such, I could imagine many people who are already playing LC wanting to play LC more once Murkrow goes.

Meditite -
Even though 28 Attack, a wide array of coverage moves and, if Eviolite is the item of choice, enough defenses to avoid most OHKOs is all very nice, I do not think Meditite is actually broken. Although it is true that no one Pokemon completely counters Meditite, since Meditite has coverage moves for almost every Pokemon (Poison Jab > Spritzee, Thunder Punch > Slowpoke), Meditite is, fortunately, not able to run seven moves at once, so if countering Meditite is a huge priority for whatever reason, it is usually still possible to do, although it is true that Meditite's moveslot syndrome isn't as severe as when Gligar was around. More importantly, although Meditite's counters are limited, it has a huge number of checks; those coverage moves I mentioned often don't OHKO bulkier Pokemon, so it's necessary to hit them on the switch with the appropriate move. In addition, there are types immune to fighting and psychic (but not both at once in LC), granting other massive threats such as Misdreavus and Murkrow opportunities to switch in. A maximum of 16 speed before boosts isn't all that fast in such an offensive metagame, allowing Pokemon like Fletchling and Misdreavus to revenge-kill Meditite with ease. Although healing from Drain Punch somewhat helps compensate, 30/55/55 defenses, although able to avoid the OHKO from most moves if Eviolite is run, is still not a very significant amount of trouble to KO, and if Eviolite is not run, Meditite becomes extremely frail.
I actually enjoy Meditite's presence in the metagame; I've always found mind-games resulting from immunities to Meditite's STABs a lot of fun, and unless I have been severely outplayed, Meditite doesn't usually get out of hand. It's true that every team must pack at least one check to Meditite, but the same can be said for almost every solid offensive Pokemon, and there are plenty of excellent options to choose from; two of these checks are Tier S. I've seen some people say Meditite might become broken if an important check like Murkrow leaves, but we said the same thing when Swirlix and Gligar went, and I don't think that is the case; there will likely still be a good number of checks left over.
Meditite is certainly bothersome for newer players who are just starting out LC and haven't bothered doing a bit of research beforehand, however, simply because of its nature as a moderately bulky wall-breaker. Of course, these players will probably just get crushed by another Tier S mon if Meditite goes, so if they are not willing to learn how to get around Meditite, they probably wouldn't stay in our community for long, even if Meditite does get kicked out. I think Meditite makes the metagame a more entertaining one.

 

[macle]

PLEASE DO NOT WRITE A NOVEL. THANKS FROM THE MODERATING TEAM

 

[Good_Luck!]

Like Heysup, Merrit and Blizzardy, I'm really on the fence on the subject of Meditite but I'm certainly leaning towards not banning it.

I can see why it's being suspected, but I haven't really had problems with it as I usually run WoW Frillish who can take even a Pure Power Thunderpunch and Burn it. Even if that fails, I run item-less Acrobatics Fletchling to counter it. And those two pokemon not just counter Meditite but a lot of other pokemon meaning they are useful outside of its use as counters.

Its weakness to ghost and flying makes it easy to check by Murkrow, Misdreavus, Taillow and even Gastly and its average speed is what holds its power. Bullet Punch is not the best priority moveas Steel is a meh offensive typing. It cannot switch in as easily and its STABS and coverage moves make it prone to be forced out if Scarfed or outsped if Berry Juice/Eviolite.

I totally agree with Corporal Levi: I actually enjoy Meditite in the game. The presence of Knock Off to get rid of its Scarf or Eviolite really hampers it 'cause it relies so much on them to be either bulky or fast. Huge Power is, literally, huge but easy to play around with Sturdy, burns and Eviolite.

I don't think Meditite is broken and it adds fun to the tier.

 

[Camden]

I'm gonna make it short and sweet and then discuss if I'm able to.

Murkrow is busted. It's like Swirlix, where individual sets aren't super broken, but when brought together are ridiculous. MixKrow sets tear through everything in the meta and make switching in just about impossible. The sets that do properly check MixKrow are beaten by dcaeKrow, more commonly known as SubThief. SwagPlay is just horrendous as it relies mostly on luck to have a chance of beating. It is weak to wearing itself down though, which is probably its largest weakness considering its variety. That still doesn't make up for Brave Bird 2HKOing nearly everything while being able to hide behind a sub. Dwebble is emerging as one of the more prominent Murkrow checks for being able to break through subs with Rock Blast, but even he can't take hits from it very well. I think Murk is broken.

At this point in time, I'm not really sure if I think Meditite is broken. Being the naturally strongest Pokemon in LC is a strong point, but he has to be selective with how he runs his sets. There will always be a Pokemon which completely walls him. If not that, a faster poke can be brought in to take him out. Honedge wins if he lacks Fire Punch. Murkrow wins if a Bullet Punch doesn't crit and it has enough HP. Fletchling OHKOs w/ Acro. Missy can switch-in on non-Psychic attacks. Slowpoke can handle non-Thunder Punch. Ponyta can burn him and cripple him. At this point in time, there are too many Pokemon that can outspeed and kill him or can wall him. Scarf Meditite is great for getting a sneaky KO, but one ounce of prediction will force him to switch out. It's silly how much power he has, but I don't think he's that broken right now.

Murkrow limits teambuilding because of his various sets that require different counters. Packing Pokemon like Berry Juice Chinchou or Munchlax can be useful, but if Murk is running the dcaeKrow set, they're done for. You have to pack very specific Pokemon to reliably win against Murkrow. Weakening itself down isn't enough because it could always be a Roost set. He's also just not fun to fight in general and I don't have fun trying to build around him.

Meditite on the other hand is quite fun to fight against. Although Meditite can be considered the bait king because of him being able to run t-punch, Fire Punch, Ice Punch (lol), Poison Jab, Bullet Punch, Fake Out, item choices between Evio/LO/Scarf, he's not really limiting. The key to handling him is preparing for the Psychic/Fighting aspect of him, and then determining what his last 2 moves are later based on the switch-ins that are done. He's not difficult to build around, just don't have a large Psychic/Fighting weakness on your team. In all honesty, I enjoy Meditite's presense in the metagame because of the skill it takes to use him to his fullest, as well as the skill it takes to fight around him. It's not like Murkrow where you just get pelted by stupid Brave Birds, Sucker Punches, and lololololol dcaeKrow OR EVEN SWAGPLAY....

So in short, I think Murkrow should be banned and Meditite should stay for now. Maybe I'll feel different about him later, but for now, I'm okay with him.

P.S.: Sorry if this is long. I can't help it.

 

[The Avalanches]

While these two annoy the hell out of me and I've avoided using them on principle for all of Gen VI so far, I really don't think they're all that broken. They're strong as hell and can tear teams that haven't packed a counter apart, but they both have enough non-obscure counters to make them manageable.

Meditite

Meditite has a good offensive typing, a great offensive move pool including Drain Punch, Fake Out, Bullet Punch, Psycho Cut and the elemental punches and an Attack stat of 28. However, Meditite is quite frail and it can be accounted for by some common Pokemon like Honedge, Snubbull, Spritzee and can be revenge killed by other common Pokemon like Misdreavus and Fletchling. All good teams are packing a way to deal with Meditite, and I really don't see it being broken, spoiling my fun or spoiling noobs' fun.

Murkrow

I'm kinda closer to the fence on Murkrow. Its versatility makes it an unpredictable threat as it can run mixed, physical and parafusion. These sets can make Murkrow difficult to play around, as it's extremely hard to account for everything Murkrow can do. However, despite his usefulness, he suffers from having the defenses of a toothpick and can be taken out easily by a moderately strong attack. For me, the sets carrying Thunder Wave are the most broken, but they can be dealt with by Chinchou.

 

[PumpHead]

Murkrow:
Murkrow hits like a truck and is definitely one of the strongest offensive Pokemon in the tier. It's sheer versatility along with extreme offensive stats makes it amazing. Mixkrow has the ability to 2HKO the whole tier (not even an exaggeration) with perfect coverage of Heat Wave, Sucker Punch, Brave Bird, and Hidden Power Grass. With a Life Orb attached, nothing is safely able to switch into attacks from Murkrow, and at 19 speed, it forces a game of change with a speed tie or to be outsped and killed. Majority of scarfers are not safe either; Sucker Punch gets STAB and can hurt to scarfers that resist it aswell.
tl;dr: mixkrow is uncounterable

The advent of SubThief Murkrow makes Murkrow an even worse threat. It can use Prankster Substitute to take the numerous opportunities where something would switch on Murkrow (say, Pawniard fearing Heat Wave and switching into Chinchou). But instead, Murkrow would go for the Substitute, letting it have a chance to attack with Thief or Brave Bird (or Heat Wave, which I prefer over Thunder Wave on it). Eventually the Substitute would be broken, and Murkrow would sub again, and then be able to Thief the item off of something else. This makes Murkrow an enormous pain to face, and is just one of the tons of sets it can run to be a threat in this meta.
tl;dr: subthief is hard to face and I didn't want to write about the tons of other sets
My overall opinion is I think Murkrow is broken due to its ability to 2HKO the whole tier, and the sheer versatility of it makes it unable to be countered.

Meditite:
I really don't think it's broken. It may hit like a truck with it's 28 attack, but it's counters really depend on it's coverage (ThunderPunch for Slowpoke, Fire Punch for Honedge), and it's Psychic typing hinders it more than helps it. Knock Off hits it neutrally, and it's not able to safely switch in on things such as Pawniard or Scraggy as easily as it could. It also is pretty slow, and Scarf restricts its STABs and makes it unable to lock itself safely into HJK or Zen Headbutt on teams with Dark or Ghost types, such as Murkrow or Misdreavus.
tl;dr: I, PumpHead, think Meditite is OK!

 

[GoldenSandslash15]

The combination of votes in fact eclipsed Meditite in the voting (thank you very much GoldenSandslash15 for counting the votes, I love you).

You're welcome. I love you too.

(No, not like that.)

Anyways, onto the discussion.

Having used both Pokémon on my LC team, I'll just say that they are both broken as hell.

Murkrow has STAB Brave Bird, which can 2HKO just about anything. It also has priority in the form of Sucker Punch, which it also gets STAB on, and has ridiculously high Attack and Speed. This wouldn't be a problem if it were a Glass Cannon, like Abra or Misdreavus, but it's not. Its defenses aren't exactly the greatest to the point where you can use it as a wall, but they are good enough that it can survive pretty much anything that you throw at it.

Meditite is different. With Pure Power, it can go up to 28 Attack, which is good. However, it's really not that great right now. Why? Because Murkrow exists. Meditite has a weakness to Flying, so Murkrow can pretty much just handle it. As such, Meditite is actually not very good right now, but in a meta without Murkrow, it definitely has the capability to be. Its only other real weaknesses are Ghost and Fairy, the latter of which is rarely seen in LC and the former of which is typically exclusive to Misdreavus. And with Team Preview, if you see that your opponent is packing a Misdreavus on their team, you can just get rid of it quickly before using your Meditite. Easy. Meditite does have frail defenses without an Eviolite, but by just giving it an Eviolite, the problem is easily patched. It also has priority in the form of Fake Out and Bullet Punch, so Speed isn't even an issue (and it takes care of its Fairy-type weakness to boot).

Are they making Little Cup not fun?

Hell yes.

My team right now consists of just these two, as well as counters for them. Abra to resist Meditite's STAB, Dwebble to set up rocks which cripple Murkrow a bit, Chinchou just to resist Murkrow's Brave Bird and to fry with Electric-type moves, and Misdreavus so that I can hit Meditite with a Shadow Ball if I predict the switch right. This is my team. Just this. It's incredibly boring when I cannot run the Pokémon that I want to run, simply because I am forced to counter these two. Ban both, imo.

Is it detracting new players?

This one I'm not sure of. I am not a new player, having been playing LC non-stop since Gen 5, so I don't know for sure. However, I recently started an alt on PS so that I could play against lower-ranking opponents, and Murkrow can sweep them easily, so they may get discouraged a bit. But that's just me theorizing and is not anything concrete, so take that with a grain of salt.

 

[Corporal Levi]

And with Team Preview, if you see that your opponent is packing a Misdreavus on their team, you can just get rid of it quickly before using your Meditite.

I don't know if this is the best of arguments. I don't think Meditite is much more difficult to remove than Misdreavus; although Meditite has recovery and a resistance to Stealth Rock, Misdreavus has better statistical bulk and an immunity to Spikes. Even if Misdreavus is removed, Meditite still has other checks, since there are like Fletchling. Things like Drilbur and Slowpoke can usually also beat it one on one.

My team right now consists of just these two, as well as counters for them. Abra to resist Meditite's STAB, Dwebble to set up rocks which cripple Murkrow a bit, Chinchou just to resist Murkrow's Brave Bird and to fry with Electric-type moves, and Misdreavus so that I can hit Meditite with a Shadow Ball if I predict the switch right. This is my team. Just this. It's incredibly boring when I cannot run the Pokémon that I want to run, simply because I am forced to counter these two. Ban both, imo.

I want to mention that Abra really isn't the best of choices to beat Meditite; a combination of Drain Punch and Bullet Punch usually means Meditite will come out on top. However, I would consider this less of Meditite being too strong, but rather Abra being too weak. Regarding your other Meditite check, I don't think Meditite's prominence is particularly relevant to Misdreavus's usage. Even in a metagame without Meditite, Misdreavus would still probably be a staple on many teams for numerous reasons.

By the way, Misdreavus isn't really a glass cannon considering how it has more base special bulk than Spritzee, but I think your point is still valid because due to lower base power moves, Misdreavus isn't able to immediately hit nearly as hard as Murkrow.

 

[Kappaten]

Murkrow

As much as I wish it weren't true, Murkrow is just too strong for this metagame. It has a move to 2HKO nearly everything in the metagame after SR with its LO set, but is ridiculously frail while doing so. On the flip size, Murkrow's access to Prankster and a very wide support movepool can let it stay around until the end of the match by taking advantage of the switches he causes, able to disrupt the opposing team for a teammate to sweep. The Life Orb set is what is truly broken, however; Murkrow's excellent speed tier combined with access to strong priority in STAB Sucker Punch makes it extremely difficult to revenge kill, and often requires a very bulky pokemon at full health to kill before it tears through at least two pokemon on your team, and most Murkrow should be getting at least two kills before eventually committing suicide from Brave Bird + LO recoil. This always leaves the Murkrow user in a better position than his or her opponent, and there is little to no downside to using Murkrow for this very reason. It is restrictive to teambuilding and needs to go.

tl;dr Murkrow = broken.

Meditite

I was one of the few people who would rather see Meditite go than Murkrow in the nomination thread; and I'm prepared to defend that. Meditite's affinity at causing switches is matched only by Murkrow, and while Meditite has a bit more of 4MSS than Murkrow does, Meditite's ability to pick its checks and counters (from an already short list of them) is unrivaled. Most Meditite, according to the 1760 stats for the suspect ladder, run Drain Punch, Bullet Punch, and Psycho Cut. This leaves common switch ins to be Spritzee, Snubbull, Honedge, Slowpoke, and Wynaut, to name a few. This is where Meditite goes from good to broken; based on whatever coverage it runs, Meditite can pick and choose the pokemon it wants to check it. Spritzee is 2HKO by Zen Headbutt after Stealth Rock, if you opt to run it instead of Psycho Cut. This leaves you open to burns from the two top abusers of Flame Body: Ponyta and Larvesta. Except if you don't decide to run Zen Headbutt, because your teammates handle Spritzee well, Psycho Cut isn't even a contact move. This is without mentioning, of course, that both of these pokemon have a Stealth Rock weakness, and it is much easier to keep rocks up than in the past since LC lost its best Defogger in Gligar.

And we're only talking STABs up to here. The most popular coverage option I have seen on Meditite is Thunder Punch which lets it get past Slowpoke and Vullaby. Fire Punch lets Meditite beat Honedge and Exeggcute. If losing Meditite due to Wynaut is causing your team problems, you can even opt to run Baton Pass. Note that Wynaut has to switch in and take both Meditite's attack and potential hazards damage unless it comes in after a kill, which means that the Meditite user is always getting the upper hand against the Wynaut user. There's no good reason to not run Meditite, either, other than attempting to take advantage of teams who stack Meditite checks/counters with stuff like Scarf Pawniard. Meditite's ability to pick, very specifically, his own checks and counters from an already short list of otherwise less-viable pokemon, is the reason I think Meditite is too powerful for the current metagame.

EDIT: forgot to mention why Snubbull isn't a reliable check: no recovery (though that's obvious)

tl;dr Meditite = broken

 

[Good_Luck!]

Why? Because Murkrow exists. Meditite has a weakness to Flying, so Murkrow can pretty much just handle it. As such, Meditite is actually not very good right now, but in a meta without Murkrow, it definitely has the capability to be.

I don't think this is a good argument; we cannot foresee the future meta without Murkrow. I'm against the argument "let's ban Meditite 'cause we're banning Murkrow and it will be broken" 'cause LC without Murkrow will be different but we don't know for sure how it will be different.

Murkrow is not the ONLY flying type out there: Fletchling, Taillow and Mantyke have the tools to defeat Meditite too (Mantyke even resists Bullet Punch). Meditite also has a weakness to ghost and Fairies: Misdreavus, of course, but also Honedge, Phantump (which win if it runs Thunderpunch), Frillish and Gastly are viable in the meta as Meditite checks. Snubull has Intimidate and survives Bullet Punch, Spritzee too. Burning it (Scald, WoW and Flame Body) is also a good way of neutering it.

Also:

Things like Drilbur and Slowpoke can usually also beat it one on one.

I'm not sure about Drilbur but Slowpoke, Frillish (as I said before) and Hippopotas are great physical walls which can withstand its presence regardless of the cover moves or priority.

 

[Kappaten]

I'm not sure about Drilbur but Slowpoke, Frillish (as I said before) and Hippopotas are great physical walls which can withstand its presence regardless of the cover moves or priority.

I apologize for using you as an example, but this is the exact kind of thing I mean in my argument in the post above yours: if Meditite doesn't want to lose to these pokemon, it can run Thunder Punch for Slowpoke/Frillish and Ice Punch for Drilbur/Hippopotas.

 

[Artemisa]

Meditite-

Meditite to me is broken simply because it is impossible/extremely hard to check it. I'm fine if it was a very small amount of counters, but this thing doesn't have checks or counters due to it's amazing movepool. Meditite has greats stabs that have near perfect coverage bar mixed typed mons and pure power which instantly doubles it's attack that can utilize eviolite and life orb extremely well. Running eviolite on Meditite doesn't hinder it at all because of the amazing boost pure power gives it. Most mons sacrifice power for longevity with eviolite, however Meditite has both power + longevity which makes it an efficient bulky attacker. LO Meditite is just so strong it's stupid and can possibly destroy checks/counters with it's stabs that would normally resist (Probably 2hko). It has two nice priority moves that alone can cost you about half your health to things that have mediocre bulk.

Meditite moves imo that are pretty good: Poison Jab / Ice Punch / Fire Punch / Zen Headbutt / Psycho Cut / Fake out / Bullet Punch / Drain Punch / HJK / Thunder Punch / Baton Pass / Fake out / Bullet Punch

I know it can't run all of those moves, but mentally you can't slack off and tell yourself "X move is extremely rare, so it probably won't have it". If you get careless for one turn you can lose your so called "counter" or "check". People can easily exploit the most common check/counter that people are using by running a coverage move that Meditite has and just break it down. Meditite is too much for XY LC at the moment.

Will post about Murkrow some other time.

 

[boo836]

1) Is Murkrow broken? Absolutely.

When we consider a Pokemon, it typically fits one of two options: Either it has the capability to defeat most Pokemon in the metagame with a limited number of sets, or its versatility allows it to blast through typical answers without much loss to the set. In the case of Murkrow however, both seem to apply. Being able to fire off STAB Brave Birds in a metagame crawling with checks to Rock and Steel-types almost guarantees that your Pokemon is a threat, so long as it has a decent attack stat. By LC standards, Murkrow doesn't have a decent attack stat- it has an amazing attack stat. As a general rule, anything that has neutral typing to Flying will be at the very least 2hko'd by Brave Bird. Spritzee, Lickitung, Slowpoke, and even Snubbull are almost always 2HKO'd by LOKrow even without Stealth Rock on the field. With just one move, Murkrow can wipe out most of the metagame. For things that don't quickly fall to Brave Bird, Murkrow has access to Heat Wave and Hidden Power Grass, which exploit the low Special Defence of most Flying resists, and hammer them hard when backed by 85 Special Attack and a Life Orb. Outrunning Krow is usually not an option, as Krow sits at an astounding 19 speed. Even with that considered, Krow has access to STAB Sucker Punch, which takes out most revenge killers with ease.

That only touches on one aspect of Krow though. With Prankster, Krow has numerous support options that can shut down certain threats to your team. Typically, Krow is best stopped by keeping up offensive pressure, and preventing it from having the opportunity to be a live threat. Revenge killing it with Pokemon like Scarf Scraggy and Pawniard may work, however Krow has ways of crippling those Pokemon, and other ways of supporting the team once it has outlived its usefulness. With Prankster, Murkrow's got access to priority Thunder Wave, Featherdance, Tailwind, Defog and Taunt, all moves which may reduce certain checks to set up fodder, or dead weight.

Finally, I can't talk about Krow without mentioning Swagplay. Though I personally have never found it particularly threatening, I know that there are times where Swagplay can be absolutely ridiculous. Swagplay isn't exactly reliable, but being nailed with a +2 STAB Foul Play isn't any fun, especially when you've got a high chance of not being able to hit Krow. Most people want to ban the use of Swagger+ Foul Play, but tbh the reason it's so bad in LC is Krow, which hits like a goddamn truck.



Calcs:

236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 13-17 (48.1 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 196 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Slowpoke: 13-17 (46.4 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(HP Grass does the same min)

236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 17-21 (73.9 - 91.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 116 HP / 76+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 13-17 (52 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

-1 236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 116 Def Eviolite Snubbull: 12-16 (54.5 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

84 SpA Life Orb Murkrow Hidden Power Grass vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chinchou: 13-16 (52 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 92 Def Fletchling: 17-21 (80.9 - 100%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

84 SpA Life Orb Murkrow Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 16-21 (76.1 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

84 SpA Life Orb Murkrow Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 220 SpD Eviolite Honedge: 16-21 (76.1 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Clearly, Murkrow can blast through the toughest Pokemon in Little Cup, leaving nothing really safe from it.


2) Is Murkrow making LC not fun? Yes.

Murkrow is almost always guaranteed to take down something if it's given the opportunity to attack. Swagplay might be unreliable, but it's largely uncompetitive, but arguably, the same can be said for Murkrow as a whole. It's very much an "autopilot" type of Pokemon, being able to rip through the metagame with brute force. I've found that for the most part Murkrow forces players to use multiple teamslots and specific builds to deal with it effectively. The best teams around utilize large amounts of priority and Choice Scarf users just to deal with it. Murkrow is an immensely centralizing force in Little Cup, and the momentum it generates is freaking insane.

I would go so far as to say that Murkrow's presence in LC detracts significantly from the game's competitiveness. Murkrow doesn't require much skill to use at all, and it crushes virtually everything you can send in on it.

3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup? Yes.

I don't like this question, simply because I don't know nearly enough people to comment fully. The few people I know that still play aren't particularly interested in LC due to the proliferation of Murkrow, Meditite, and other overpowered Pokemon that unbalance the game. I wouldn't go so far as to say that Murkrow is the sole reason, but that it is certainly a contributing factor. Until it was suggested that I try it out, I myself wasn't too keen on trying out LC simply because of how unbalanced it was (this coming from an ubers player lol). The thought of your opponent being almost certainly guaranteed to take out at least one of your Pokemon is daunting. If Krow was removed from the metagame, I'm certain more plyers would be interested in LC.


------

Is Meditite broken? Yes

In this metagame, Meditite has been a rather iffy Pokemon when people think of broken Pokemon, but it's indeed very broken. Unlike Murkrow, Tite has quite a few more switch-ins. That being said, Meditite has a gargantuan 28 attack stat, pretty sweet bulk, and access to two of the best STAB typings at the present moment. Honedge pretty much hard counters Tite, as does Wynaut. It's got shaky checks in Misdreavus, Gastly, Murkrow, and Fletchling. Other bulky Psychic-types beat it too, but they tend to be 1-for-1s, unlike Honedge and Wynaut. The issue with Meditite is that its counters aren't always practical, and its checks can be easily played around. Much like Murkrow, Meditite typically can take out at least something before going down.

Scarftite is beastly as well. When facing Meditite, you've got to guess between whether it's running Eviolite or Scarf a lot of the time. While the Scarf set is unquestionably easier to handle, it has the option of crippling its switch-ins with Trick. It's downright disastrous to bring in your counter to Tite, and have it take your Eviolite while locking up your check. That's part of why dealing with Tite is so damn difficult for most players.

Hell, you can forego a coverage move for running Baton Pass, allowing you to scout out your opponent's checks and hammer them. Opponent's running Spritzee? Baton Pass your ass out of there on the switch, go to Pawniard, and set up rocks while they try dealing with it. Or, go to Croagunk/Houndour and set up NP. Baton Pass slips past Wynaut too.

Some calcs:

196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Zen Headbutt vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 13-16 (56.5 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Bullet Punch vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 5-6 (21.7 - 26%) -- 22.8% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock

196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Thunder Punch vs. 196 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Slowpoke: 14-18 (50 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Drain Punch vs. 76 HP / 212+ Def Eviolite Chinchou: 12-15 (48 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Thunder Punch vs. 116 HP / 76+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 14-18 (56 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Bullet Punch vs. 116 HP / 76+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 4-5 (16 - 20%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
(Vullaby still kills itself with BB recoil if Drain Punch is used)

-1 196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 116 Def Eviolite Snubbull: 9-12 (40.9 - 54.5%) -- 68.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Zen Headbutt vs. 76 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Larvesta: 12-15 (52.1 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Hippopotas and Meditite basically 1-4-1 each other, whichever comes out on top is chance based, through typically Hippo.

Like Murkrow, Meditite has an easy time taking apart the metagame with little effort. It's definitely broken lol.

2) Is Meditite making LC not fun? Yes.

To an extent, at least. As I said previously, Meditite is always going to be at worst a 1-for-1. But, the majority of the time, it can take down something rather easily and keep on going. Its checks have too hard of a time coming in, giving it the chance to switch out and pelt whatever else it wants to. I realize that being able to switch out of a counter isn't an argument for it being broken by itself, but it can always come back and fire off heavy blows as soon as it comes into play. Meditite keeps up offensive pressure so well that it's difficult to lose momentum with it if your opponent lacks Honedge or Wynaut.

Pokemon that are guaranteed to take down at least one opponent's Pokemon in nearly every match takes a lot away from the game, as I stated with Murkrow. It's not fun to be forced to lose a Pokemon just for the purpose of killing something, as that does absolutely nothing for you in terms of gaining momentum.

3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup? Yes.

Players that I know that have been deterred from playing Little Cup have been because of the massive imbalance in the metagame. Overpowered threats run rampant, kicking the asses of nearly everything in sight. While Meditite isn't an "auto-pilot" Pokemon like Krow, it still doesn't take a whole lot of skill to use, as it generally is able to afford using prediction (whereas Krow isn't). I hate to keep referring to Krow, but Meditite is in practically the same boat: it can take out multiple Pokemon.

-------


If I've got any extra stuff to add, I might add it later. I'm pretty dang tired.



EDIT:

PLEASE DO NOT WRITE A NOVEL. THANKS FROM THE MODERATING TEAM

whoops.

 

[OP]

I'll try to keep this short to save the moderators some time

Meditite:
Relies heavily on its item because it either needs to have the bulk to withstand some neutral attack and recover with drain punch or the speed to simply kill or severely cripple the opposing mon with its wide movepool and huge attack stat. Many things that meditite would like to check will be running knock off such as timburr, pawniard, and mienfoo. There are also a wide variety of meditite counters available that could work on many different teams that can take a super effective elemental punch and still OHKO back so its wide movepool isn't much of a problem unless they successfully predict the switch which is something the player should be rewarded for anyway. I think meditite should stay and I also don't think that it will need to be suspected again if murkrow is banned because meditite has favorable match ups against near all mixkrow counters and they'll likely be used less.

Murkrow:
I simply think that any counters you have to mixkrow will be severely hurt by the ThiefKrow and the absence bulky electric types other than chinchou makes it much to harder to counter. Your team is basically forced to run something that will either kill your momentum, has no recover so it can't come in repeatedly, or run no mons at all that can be OHKO by murkrow. (Only exceptions I can think of are resttalk chinchou and a bulky roost archen) In my personal opinion that is restricting teambuilding far too much and needs to go.

Sidenote: If both these mons get banned, it's a very real possibility that mienfoo becomes the new gligar and gets used on all teams.

 

[OP]

Checks/Counters

• Chinchou, but only if its near full HP. Life Orb Krow can 2KO with Brave Bird followed by HP Grass.
  
  
• Archen. Probably the best counter if it runs Berry Juice, and even in defeatist can still put the hurt on Krow.
  
  
• Magnemite, but only if Krow doesn't have Heat Wave (it will)
  
  
• Onix is 2KO'd by Dark Pulse and Nosepass must be at full health, which is difficult since it has not recovery.
  
  
• Snover can't switch in, of course, but can outspeed with a scarf and KO with Ice STAB. This goes for most scarfed pokemon who can pry on Krow's weaknesses, provided they have decen bulk/have a good deal of HP remaining, because Sucker Punch deals a lot of damage.

I just had a couple of other checks I wanted to share :)

Tyrunt is a great one with it's only problem being no recovery and having to invest a great deal to avoid the dark pulse 2HKO.

Maximum physical bulk munchlax with a berry juice/recycle set can also work well but doesnt get healed to full hp with berry juice so it sits at awkward hp amounts and can eventually be killed by the bravebird but the murkrow will have taken A LOT of recoil damage. This set also really hates ThiefKrow :(

Scarfed Amaura can tank a couple bravebirds (I think?) and OHKO easily with a nature power while not being able to be hit by sucker punch.

Bulky Tirtouga counters all set lacking in HP grass and in my ladder experience dark pulse seems to be much more popular than it. It also sadly doesn't get recovery but it sets up rocks which makes it hard for the murkrow to come in repeatidly as well.

Shieldon is very similar to tirtouga but without the grass weakness. It also sucks pretty bad outside of countering the krow in my opinion.

You also didn't mention dwebble which is very common. It can beat the ThiefKrow set through rockblast (breaking through subs) as well which is nice. The problem with dwebble is that it doesn't work if the enemy has rocks/spikes set up as it will most likely die to bravebird.

 

[Magcargo]

1) Is Murkrow / Meditite broken?

Murkrow: I personally think that Murkow is very broken in the current metagame. This is primarily due to Murkrow's wide variety of sets and amazing stats. Due to Murkrow's versatility, it practically has no hard counters. Depending on what coverage move it uses, Mixed attacker can 2HKO a majority of the tier while SubTheif can cripple a majority of the mixed attacking set's counters. While having no hard counters doesn't necessarily make a Pokemon broken, Murkrow has many other qualities that make it very hard for the tier to handle. Unlike other powerful wallbreakers, all Murkrow needs to do to defeat walls is spam Brave Bird and KO with its followup moves, Heat Wave HP, Grass / Dark Pulse, and Sucker Punch. It also has an excellent Speed stat of 19, along with a strong STAB Sucker Punch, making it difficult to revenge kill.

Meditite: Currently, I think that Meditite is not broken, but that is primarily due to the fact that Murkrow resides currently within the tier. If Murkrow gets banned, I could see Meditite being a major problem in the metagame. Due to its raw power, it only has two "reliable" counters in Honedge and Slowpoke and even then, neither of them are that reliable at countering to Meditite due to its access to Fire Punch and Thunder Punch. This bring up another issue with Meditite, its versatility. It can run a variety of sets, ranging from Life Orb, to Eviolite, to Choice Scarf an a majority of these sets are fairly unpredictable due to Meditite's excellent movepool. That being said, Meditite does have a few weak points that make me skeptical of it truly being broken, primarily its low speed and average bulk. Its below average speed combined with its average bulk makes it fairly easy to check with things like Misdreavus, Jolly Pawniard, and Fletchling. Both of Meditite's STAB moves also have Pokemon immune to them, making it fairly easy to play around with.
2) Is Murkrow / Meditite making Little Cup not fun?

Murkrow: Yes. Murkrow basically forces me to run Eviolite Chinchou on every team I make, as it is a semi-reliable counter to Murkrow. I also run a few decent checks like scarf pawniard to weaken murkrow to the point where a priority user can KO it. Once Chinchou and Pawniard are gone, I'm basically fucked, as the rest of my team is 2HKO / OHKOed by Murkrow. I'm not an experienced LC player, which may be the reason why Murkrow kind of fucks over my team, but I have seen a large amount of players in general complain about Murkrow's presence in the tier.

Meditite: No. Meditite does not really limit teambuilding as much as Murkrow from my experience, as all of its checks and counters are naturally superb Pokemon in the metagame and aren't required on every team to check it. Against Meditite I usually play around with the fact that both of its STAB moves have immunities and switch my Dark-type on a predicted Psychic move and my Ghost-type on a predicted Fighting-type. Its low Speed also makes it vulnerable to being revenge killed by threats such as Jolly Pawniard, Misdreavus and Murkrow.

3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?

I'm not fit to answer this question as I have not contacted many individuals, but in a theoretical sense, Yes. From my experience playing LC, both of these Pokemon are fairly easy to use, have very few reliable counters, and are almost guaranteed a kill in a match, more so Murkrow than Meditite.

For fun, I decided to make a list of the S-rank Pokemon and show how well Murkrow and meditite fare against them, assuming the Pokemon on both sides of the feild are at 100% health and are already out.

Hide

S-Rank
Meditite

• Meditite: 50 / 50 scenario. The Meditite that wins in this scenario depends on which Meditite wins the Speed and can KO the other first with Zen Headbutt or Zen Headbutt + Bullet Punch.
• Murkrow: Murkrow outspeeds and OHKOes Meditite with Brave Bird.

Mienfoo

• Meditite: Meditite can win if it is scarfed and the opposing mienfoo isn't. Otherwise, mienfoo can simply U-Turn out.
• Murkrow: If the opposing Mienfoo is scarfed, then Murkrow risk taking a lot of damage from HJK. Otherwise, Murkrow OHKOes it with Brave Bird.

Misdreavus

• Meditite: Meditite loses in most scenarios, as Misdreavus is faster and can either cripple it with WOW or OHKO it with Shadow Ball.
• Murkrow: Murkrow usually wins in this scenario, as Sucker Punch can OHKO Misdreavus and variations of Missy that attempt to cripple Krow with WOW can still lose to Dark Pulse variations.

Murkrow

• Meditite: Usually loses to Murkrow. Bullet Punch doesn't deal enough damage to kill Krow, while krow can OHKO Meditite with Brave Bird.
• Murkrow: 50 / 50 scenario. Depends on which Murkrow is faster and kills the other Murkrow first with Brave Bird

Pawniard

• Meditite: Usually wins vs Pawniard at full health, but takes a lot of damage in the process. Assuming that Meditite is Adamant and Pawniard is Jolly, Eviolite Pawniard outspeeds Meditite and deals 47.3 - 63.1% damage to Eviolite Meditite with Knock off and 78.9 - 94.7% damage to Life Orb Meditite with the same move, meaning that Meditite will be heavily cripple if it attempts to check Pawniard as it not only loses a shiton of health (even with Drain Punch recovery factored in, but also loses its item. Overall, an unfavorable matchup for both Pokemon.
• Murkrow: Deals a crapton of damage to eviolite Pawniard with LO Heat Wave and OHKOes LO and CS variations with the same move. That being said, Murkrow will take a shiton of damage from Iron Head, making it an unfavorable matchup for both Pokemon.

A-Rank Pokemon coming soon!

Sorry if this response is too long.

 

[Artemisa]

Checks are things that can switch in into Meditite and threaten it out, but not for the entire game.

Pawniard / Mienfoo / Timburr / Missy / Fletchling all take a shitload of damage trying to switch in so they aren't what I would call checks. Not even revenge killers bar 3/5 maybe 2/5 depending on the situation with Pawniard. Meditite is extremely flexible and multiple combinations of attacks to beat it's counters and checks. It doesn't have to run dual stab at all, it can run 1 stab + 3 coverage moves and still be sucessful. Also prediction shouldn't be an argument because it's a two way street. Meditite can simply predict the switch in with the ghost type and hit it hard with a stab Zen Headbutt and do over half damage or use a neutral move and do a little bit under half sometimes even more. "You can't outplay a coinflip" - Soulgazer

 

[TUO]

Murkrow is absolutely broken, it has the combination of all traits that can make a mon potentially broken. Let's list things that make Murkrow broken in as many perspectives as possible.

Versatility:
Similarly to Swirlix, Murkrow has a multitude of offensive sets that although might have a couple counters in common, you have to play around differently. There is the common Life Orb+4 Attacks set (Brave Bird,Sucker Punch,Heat Wave,Dark Pulse/crap like Defog or Sunny Day) that can use any free turn or opportunity to go in and easily KO an opposing mon unless they have very specific checks. It can even straight up 6-0 a team in the lower ends of the PS Ladder (and the higher ends, lol). Even those "counters" or specific checks have issues because those mons are weak to the rest of the meta (which is why it's really easy to put Murkrow in Fighting-type+Knock Off teams) LO Murkrow is just versatile as an offensive threat on teams because of how powerful it is. You just need to click Brave Bird and nail the switchin with one of your other moves. Which is mentioned here as a broken quality of Murkrow.

Mukrow, simply put, is too strong, too fast, and has too good of a movepool. 2HKOing anything in the tier is, in opinion, NOT a bannable quality, however; Murkrow's version of it is. Any time a Pokemon can use one move, in this case Murkrow's Life Orb Brave Bird does enough damage that it can consequently outspeed and KO almost any Pokemon with its followup move of Heat Wave, Dark Pulse, or Sucker Punch (for Scarf Chinchou/Magnemite).

Very valid case for LO Murkrow, it has a similar broken quality to Tornadus-Therian in BW OU in this way, being able to spam a LO move and nail anything else with something else. Of course this is about it's versatility, not how powerful LO Murkrow is. Tornadus-Therian had U-Turn and Regenerator, something that Murkrow doesn't offer to the table. However, Murkrow offers a bunch of other things as an offensive threat, particularly utility to an offensive team.

LO Murkrow is also used on a lot of offensive teams because of a powerful Life Orb Sucker Punch that greatly helps every team in checking threats, and is one of the sole reasons priority is so common in this meta. LO Murkrow is just so good in all aspects as an offensive threat. Also, Dark Pulse flinch destroys Dwebble ez (hue)

That's enough with LO Murkrow though, Murkrow has even more retarded sets that can beat a team.

Murkrow's versatility also shows in its multitude of sets; some or gimmicky while others aren't. I think we can all agree that if Murkrow had Knock Off, it would be banned before Gligar/Swirlix/Tangela, and people discovered that Sub Thief sets are very effective in this metagame, and is almost like Murkrow's version of Knock Off. Thief sets are almost as threatening as Life Orb, and has more longevity than the LO Murkrow set. LO Murkrow's weakness is that you can wear it down, and try to outlast it. However, the same strategy doesn't apply to Sub+Thief. You don't know what set it is in team preview, so you either need to have gdlk predict skills, or have to scout it out. Either way, you are in a losing battle.

That, along with Murkrow's access to hax based methods, and other sets that are freaking bullshit (I have a ok team around PerishTrap). Murkrow is just way too versatile.

Teambuilding Approach:
I'll make this shorter because of how long the last one was. Simple to put, it really feels that the reason there are people high up on the ladder with teams without Murkrow is not because it doesn't fit on the team, but people Don't Want to use Murkrow because of its centralizing and overpowering nature. Honestly, Murkrow's mentioned versatility gives you no reason not to run Murkrow on a team, unless you are doing a slow-paced variant of stall (Murkrow might even find a place there, who knows) Murkrow is so easy to put on a team, and so many team archetypes have Murkrow in them just because of how strong and helpful it is. Combine that with Murkrow's access to utility moves like Defog, and you have a Pokemon that can fit on so many teams.

Murkrow also has a huge effect on the other side of the teambuilder. Murkrow puts such a large teambuilding strain when it comes to attempts to counter it, because of its strength. You often have to run at least 2 pokemon that can revenge kill it, or a really niche check. That goes along with the Chinchou that is starting to feel like it's on every team, and you have the most centralizing Pokemon in the meta.

With that, it's easy to see that Murkrow is Broken and should be banned.

I'll just fill up the form in one sentence answers to sum it up.

1. Is Murkrow Broken?
Yes, Murkrow is broken because of all the problems it can cause in a game of Little Cup
2. Is Murkrow making Little Cup not fun?
Very little Pokemon can make a game outright unfun, but Murkrow definitely makes the game a bit less sometimes due to its ParaFusion possibilities and all the stress that Krow can cause.
3. Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?
I believe that this Murkrow problem is giving a very bad image of LC to others, and for that reason can deter people from playing LC.

I'll say more about Meditite when more discussion sparks, I see Murkrow debates ending earlier.

 

[PumpHead]

It doesn't have to run dual stab at all, it can run 1 stab + 3 coverage moves and still be successful

It can be successful, but running dual STAB is far more reliable on Meditite. For example, it nets the kill on typical Evio pawn if you keep Fighting, but losing Psychic makes it unable to touch Misdreavus. Or likewise, if you keep Psychic, you are able to hurt Misdreavus switch-ins and beat up on things such as Croagunk better, but losing Fighting makes you unable to touch Scraggy. Dual-STAB is far safer and more reliable. Those aren't the best examples, perhaps, but they get the point across.