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My Hail Team [Mixed Tiers] [First RMT]

Discussion in 'Past Gen Teams' started by Arikado, Jul 26, 2010.

  1. Arikado

    Arikado What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine too
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    Team at a Glance
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Changes are in BloodRed. :P

    Lead:
    Swampert @ Leftovers
    Relaxed
    252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
    ~ Earthquake
    ~ Stealth Rock
    ~ Ice Beam
    ~ Roar


    Earthquake will work as the main STAB and counter to Tyranitar, Stealth Rock is for supporting my team by damaging the opponent's Pokémon everytime they switch, Ice Beam is for extra coverage and might work well against Dragons if Swampert lives till mid-game. Roar is there to Roar off Dragon/Sword Dancers etc. and also spreading Stealth Rock damage through the opponent's team.




    Heatran @ Choice Scarf
    Naive
    252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 HP
    ~ Fire Blast
    ~ Earth Power
    ~ HP Grass / Dragon Pulse
    ~ Explosion


    Heatran basically is there to cover my Fire weakness and to revenge kill the big threats that threaten my Hail team.
    With a standard Scarf Heatran, this set allows me to revenge kill Lucario with either Fire Blast or Earth Power, as it is a big threat to my team. Dragon Pulse is to replace HP Grass as i might not be able to get it in-game, Explosion works well as a final hit, Fire Blast is the main heavy STAB. Earth Power is for Tyranitar and such, and also to counter HeatProof Bronzong, even though those aren't used often.





    Tentacruel @ Leftovers
    Liquid Ooze
    Calm
    252 HP / 120 Def / 136 SpD
    ~ Toxic Spikes
    ~ Rapid Spin
    ~ Sludge Bomb / Blizzard
    ~ Surf

    This guy is fantastic, it sets up Toxic Spikes, Spin away the entry hazards, and is also able to sweep.
    Surf is to counter dangerous Fire types (especially Infernape) and Rock types, Sludge Bomb is for the Grass types.
    252 HP and 120 Def ensures a 3HKO from Infernape's Close Combat.



    Walrein @ Leftovers
    Ice Body
    Bold
    220 HP / 252 Def / 36 SpD
    ~ Protect
    ~ Surf
    ~ Substitute
    ~ Roar

    The best Pokémon in this team, i really can't believe why this guy is NU, it can Roar away threats and spread the Toxic Spikes as well, it's main task is to set up Substitutes, use Protect and let the foe suffer from Toxic, and Surf is possible.



    Rotom-F @ Leftovers
    Bold
    252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
    ~ Shadow Ball
    ~ Blizzard
    ~ Thunderbolt
    ~ Reflect


    Rotom-F can be a perfect Fighting-types counter and also a spin blocker, and can abuse the Hail weather fairly well, plus it is immune to common Ground-hit moves such as Earthquake and Earth Power.

    I'm actually not very sure about this set or this EV spread, i'm thinking of 252 HP instead of Spe though, not really sure as i have never used any kind of Rotom before.
    Thunderbolt is to counter specific Flying threats such as Staraptor and Aerodactyl [though Blizzard usually takes care of this, but i still need it to at least counter Gyarados], Reflect in my opinion is better than Will-o-Wisp as it never misses plus it helps my whole team, not just one.
    Blizzard and Shadow Ball are the main big and heavy STAB hits, as it can counter Gengar
    [even though it could probably OHKO me before i OHKO them..]




    Abomasnow @ Leftovers
    Sassy
    252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 SpA or Atk
    ~ Leech Seed
    ~ Protect
    ~ Substitute
    ~ Blizzard

    Made specifically to counter Tyranitar, this guy can work wonders with Leech Seed + Protect and Leftovers recovery, it's also a great counter to many threatening Pokémon such as Tyranitar and Hippowdon.
    It can also use Subtitute + Protect combo to prevent the foe from breaking the Sub and also recovering HP from Leeching Seeds and Leftovers plus inflicting 6% damage to the foe's Pokémon.
    Moves considering to replace:
    - Wood Hammer instead of Blizzard
    - Focus Punch instead of Protecy


  2. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
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    Hi there.

    Hail teams are pretty awesome, I agree, and they can be successful if built properly. What you have here is pretty standard, but suffers from a ton of very common weaknesses that really need to be addressed across the team.

    First, replace Glaceon with Choice Scarf Heatran. This does a few things for your team:

    • Gives you a strong switch-in to Grass- and Fire-type attacks that you currently lack anywhere on your team.
    • Allows you to check and deal with SD Lucario, among a ton of other things
    • Isn't weak to SR like more than half of your current team is.
    • Can use HPGrass over Dragon Pulse due to the excess of Ice-type attacks on your team for Dragonite.
    Use the following set:

    Heatran @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Flash Fire
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Nature: Naive
    ~ Fire Blast
    ~ Earth Power
    ~ Hidden Power Grass
    ~ Explosion

    Next, I want to suggest a strong Rock-type resistance for your last slot. Dugtrio, despite resisting Rock-type attacks, is still OHKOed by almost all of them in the OU tier, so you need something better. Let me suggest Machamp for the following reasons:

    • Tentacruel is already one of the best Infernape checks there is, so you don't need something to trap it
    • Machamp checks the hell out of Choice Scarf Tyranitar, who would otherwise run through your entire team.
    • Machamp can run a RestTalk set to effectively combat the passive damage from Hail.
    Use the following set:

    Machamp @ Leftovers
    Ability: No Guard
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
    Nature: Adamant
    ~ Rest
    ~ Sleep Talk
    ~ DynamicPunch
    ~ Payback

    You also should try to get Stealth Rock in your team somewhere. I suggest running a Life Orb on Mamoswine instead of Choice Band and replacing Avalanche with Stealth Rock. Mamoswine will force a ton of switches and get lots of options to set it up over the course of the match.

    Lastly, you are going to want to run some Speed EVs on Walrein to outspeed neutral-natured base 70's, most notably Skarmory. (So you can Roar it before it Whirlwinds you) I recommend a spread of 220 HP / 240 Def / 48 Spe for that. You can add more Speed as you see fit.

    I trust that these suggestions will help your team out! Good luck!
  3. Delko

    Delko
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    Hello

    I'm a big fan of Hail teams so I think I could give you some constructive advice.

    First I agree with most things suggested by Rising_Dusk.
    I do would like to suggest something else instead of Machamp to counter Tyranitar as Machamp cannot switch-in Tyranitar's Stone Edge directly since even Scaftar will 2HKO. So instead of Machamp I suggest Hariyama:

    Hariyama @ leftovers/ impish/ thick fat
    80 HP, 252 Def, 4 Spe, 172 SDef

    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Force Palm
    - Payback

    Not only is Hariyama one of the best Tyranitar counters it also is somewhat a decent check against Heatran, who could be dangerous to Hail teams. It also fits in your concept of mixed tiers. ^^

    I also suggest a slightly different EV spread for Abomasnow. Since you are using the Subseed version I suggest making him as bulky as possible with a spread of 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 SDef.

    Since you are not relying on entry hazards to much you can replace Roar on Wallrein with Blizzard or Super Fang, and if you opted for the latter you could also try Brine instead of Surf.

    Hope this helped and good luck with the team!
  4. Arikado

    Arikado What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine too
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    Sounds good, i'll try both and see which one is better. :]


    Walrein's health will be restored by 12% each turn, so i don't think Brine would be good on him, cause it's HP wouldn't really drop to 33% or below, and even if it did, it'll restore HP quickly with Protect and Substitute.

    Thanks!
  5. Delko

    Delko
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    I think you missunderstand Brine.
    Brine has a basepower of 65 when your opponent's health is higher then 50%. If your opponent's health is lower then 50% Brine's basepower is doubled (65*2 = 130). Pair that with Super Fang and Hail damage and Brine will have 130 bp most of the time. =p
  6. Arikado

    Arikado What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine too
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    Makes sense. :P
  7. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
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    I'm sorry, but this is a poor suggestion. Choice Band Tyranitar, the only variant that can 2HKO RestTalk Machamp (and still has to roll max damage once to do so), is much easier for his team to handle because of its low Speed. Choice Scarf Tyranitar, however, doesn't even 4HKO RestTalk Machamp with Stone Edge.
    Code:
    252 Jolly Choice Scarf Tyranitar Stone Edge
       vs. 252/0 Adamant Leftovers Machamp : 26.3% - 31%
    Machamp is also infinitely harder to switch into because of the presence of Confusion and a higher base 130 Attack stat.
    Abomasnow really needs the Speed to Substitute in front of many common status users, and the Special Attack investment allows Abomasnow to pose a serious offensive threat with Blizzard once under a Substitute. I think for the style team that the OP is running, the 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe spread will work well, especially as a lead where it can beat out a lot of opposing Pokemon. 4 Def EVs are used instead of 4 HP so that you can switch into SR 4 times without dying. If you want a specially bulky spread, that's fine, but then Abomasnow is not a good choice for the lead position and you should consider moving my suggested Heatran to the lead slot instead with the Shuca Lead set.
  8. Delko

    Delko
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    Ah yes, it seems I made a mistake when putting Tyranitar into the damage calculator.

    True, but a possible paralysis isn't enjoyable either. ^^

    Anyway, I suggested Hariyama mainly for it's higher bulk and Thick Fat ability, which allows him to take Fire-type attacks alot easier. And also Choice Band Tyranitar is taken better care of with Hariyama.

    About Abomasnow, I used him alot in the lead possition with the defensive spread. When looking at the at the most common leads Abomasnow doesn't need the speed because a) it cannot outspeed them anyway or b) being faster doesn't benefit it. So he might be better of with creating as bulky Substitutes as possible so they don't break due a "weak" special attack. Also it can be an advantage to be slower then Hippowdon.

    EDIT: if you run Heatran in the lead position (and thus without a Choice Scarf), Lucario becomes a great threat to this team. So if you decide to lead with Heatran then you will be better of with Gliscor over both Machamp and Hariyama. Gliscor can deal with Tyranitar and Lucario, and it also does decent against Stall.
  9. Arikado

    Arikado What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine too
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    Not really, im not changing my lead.

    And is it good to have Focus Punch or GrassWhistle on Abomasnow ? (Focus Punch specifically to counter Tyranitar)

    Also, a question: When you ran a lead Abomasnow, did you have any trouble countering/tanking a Rock Slide from Aerodactyl or a Psychic from Azelf ?
    As they are probably the most popular leads, plus Azelf can also carry Fire Blast, and since most competitive battlers go for Smogon to get sets, they will probably carry a Psychic/Fire Blast.
  10. Delko

    Delko
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    GrassWhistle has poor accuracy so that's not really suggested.

    Against Aerodactyl you can survive a Rock Slide, Blizzard OHKO's (Hail finishes the Focus Sash). So if Aerodactyl uses Taunt or Stealth Rock you will still be at full health. Azelf might have Fire Blast so you need to watch out for that. You can absorb the Fire Blast with you Scarfed Heatran (suggested by Rising_Dusk) and take Azelf out with a Fire Blast of your own, this will prevent Azelf from getting Stealth Rock up at all.
    Other leads such as Machamp will be a bit more difficult to counter.

    Focus Punch is a good option on Abomasnow. Use it over Protect. I suggest using a Sassy nature so neither of your attacks will be weakened.
  11. Arikado

    Arikado What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine too
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    Got it, thanks !

    Edit: I might go for Naive, just to outspeed Tyranitar so the Hail can take over the Sandstorm. But i don't know..

    The main reason i'm afraid of Tyranitar is Fire Punch, so yeah.
  12. Fire Blast

    Fire Blast

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    The slower pokemon gets the weather it's due.
  13. Arikado

    Arikado What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine too
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    I just did some calculations, and it seems i can't OHKO a bulky Tyranitar with a Timid nature using Focus Punch.
    So i decided to go Physical, and go for this moveset:
    Abomasnow @ Leftovers
    252 Atk / 252 Def / 4 HP
    Impish/Careful
    ~ Ice Shard
    ~ Substitute
    ~ Focus Punch
    ~ Leech Seed (Im thinking about Protect as i need to get Abomasnow to live as long as possible)
    Plus, with this set, i can do more than half (around 240 damage) to Aerodactyl which is probably the most common lead, and i bet they wouldn't predict a physical Abomasnow as a lead, so they're gonna use Stealth Rock/Taunt as their first hit, and i just Ice Shard the hell out of it.

    Or i could just go for the Swords Dance set, and Ice Shard shall OHKO them. (Hail takes care of Sashers)

    Abomasnow @ Leftovers
    Jolly/Adamant
    252 Atk / 252 Def / 4 HP
    ~ Swords Dance
    ~ Ice Shard
    ~ Seed Bomb or Wood Hammer
    ~ Protect.
    It goes like this, Swords Dance + Protect to gain 6% HP and inflict 6% HP, then start sweeping with either Ice Shard or Seed Bomb, while using Protect between attacks.

    Thoughts ?
  14. Arikado

    Arikado What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine too
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    Quick bump.
  15. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    Hello. It's nice to see hail teams, even if it is not the most viable strategy going. First of all, I would advise you to listen particularly to Delko. Rising_Dusk is an excellent user and team rater but Delko has the experience with hail.

    I think they are both correct in suggesting that you use a Scarf Heatran. Heatran provides an important fire immunity. It also allows you to absorb trick, which is important, and gives you a revenge-killer. Most notably, it can help revenge stuff like Lucario, who would otherwise 6-0 this team. Much like the others, I see Glaceon and Dugtrio (but also to some extent Mamoswine) as the weak links in your team. Hail is generally based around stall since the hail brings minimal offensive advantages. Blizzard spamming is ineffective in OU given how common Steel types and Tyranitar are. Therefore it is advisable to pack something that isn't weak to SR and the common Fire, Rock, Steel and Fighting moves that plague the ice-types. Although Dugtrio's typing if beneficial, its defences certainly aren't.

    I have noticed that this team contains no user of Stealth Rock. To stall effectively, this is something of a necessity. I would suggest that you run a Swampert rather than a Machamp or Hariyama as suggested above. Swampert can run a set with SR and Roar that may also work in the lead position if you find Abomasnow ineffective. After all, Abomasnow loses to the majority of leads, since it is only able to beat Aerodactyl, Swampert, Starmie and Hippowdon (don't take anything else on otherwise you risk being OHKOed). For Swampert, something like 252hp 252def 4 spe, relaxed, EQ/Ice Beam (for lead position) OR Blizzard/Stealth Rock/Roar is recommended. It can help somewhat with dragons too if you choose to remove Mamoswine. Gliscor also makes a good user of SR, a good lead and a perfect Lucario counter. Mamoswine, by the way, is a very unreliable user of Stealth Rock, and rather fails to take advantage of hail beyond being immune to it.

    The final thing I think your team may benefit from is a spin blocker. Rotom-F would probably the best choice, and can act as a status absorber with a RestTalk set. Rotom counters Scizor effectively and provides an important fighting immunity. Tentacruel is not enough in this respect thanks to its mediocre physical defence.

    Abomasnow's set should look like this;

    Sassy 252hp 4spatk 252spdef Leftovers

    -Leech Seed
    -Substitute/Protect
    -Focus Punch/Protect/Wood Hammer
    -Blizzard

    Abomasnow is not fast enough to run a fast subseed strategy. This spread lets it take numerous special attacks from things like bulky waters without the sub even being broken. Blizzard lets you hit Grass-types immune to leech seed and so is compulsory. Focus Punch and wood hammer hit Tyranitar hard, but Protect will vastly improve your stalling capability. There is little point trying to use Aboma's weak attack stat outside of hitting Tyranitar. The SD set will be easily revenged if it somehow manages to kill something.

    So in conclusion, I would suggest:

    Swampert/Gliscor
    Abomasnow
    Heatran
    Rotom-F
    Walrein
    Tentacruel.

    If you want to run Machamp, nudge SR onto Heatran, running a shuca set, and run a scarf Rotom to help with Lucario. This then lets you remove Swampert. Heatran would likely be the lead in this situation.

    Good luck. By the way, you should edit any changes into your original post.
  16. Arikado

    Arikado What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine too
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    Edited the OP, thanks for the help everyone !

    Although i am considering Machamp, but i think that Rotom is just more fun to use.

    Speaking of Rotom, what do you think of the moveset posted above ?

    Do you think i should get Substitute for Rotom-F ?

    EDIT: And doesn't Rotom-F revert back into it's original form while using Wi-Fi ?
  17. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    Rotom-F set should be: 252hp 252def 4spe Bold, Leftovers, Thunderbolt/Blizzard/Rest/Sleep Talk. However, if it is not possible on wifi, maybe just try Dusknoir.
  18. Delko

    Delko
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    Hello again

    I think you forgot to change Rotom-f's item (it has Choice Band, lol). Leftovers is suggested here.

    On Swampert you can use Blizzard over Ice Beam for more power and because of Hail it cannot miss.
  19. Arikado

    Arikado What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine too
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    Updated the OP with the new Pokémon and corrected the typos. (was sleepy when i posted them. :P)

    Only thing that can ruin my Swampert Lead is Roserade leads, those are a pain in the ass.

    Any more comments are appreciated. :)
  20. WintherKnight

    WintherKnight

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    How i would kill you..

    Abomasnow: IB
    Heatran: EQ
    Tentacruel: EQ, Thunderbolt, Energy Ball
    Walrein: EQ
    Rotom: Surf
    Swampert: Energy Ball

    My speed Team
  21. min min

    min min

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    @above: Oh, Gawd...

    Would a Swampert stay in to a common Gengar in the analysis page? No.
    Would Heatran stay in to an Earthquake user? No.
    Is Abomasnow OHKOed by Ice Beam? No.
    Is Walrein's Substitute even broken by Gliscor's Earthquake? I doubt it.
    Are you shamelessly advertising your team? Yes.

    Oh, and great hail team, seems pretty standard to me though. The niches in a Hail team are still quite limited anyway.

    I would put HP Grass on Heatran as Dragons are hurt pretty bad by Blizzard anyways. Speaking of which, Blizzard should not be replaced as a miss on Aerodactyl that early in the game is embarrasing. Does Swampert die fast? If so, use Ice Beam.

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