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My Unnamed Sun Team. Please rate and help me improve it

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by prabhbhambra13, Jul 30, 2012.

  1. prabhbhambra13

    prabhbhambra13

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    Messages:
    2
    So i built a team around Sun and i want some feedback on it, here we go.

    Here is the team (screenshots from pokemonshowdown, also i'm sorry that the order of pokemon in the team is all over the place)

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Cloyster @ Leftovers
    Trait: Skill Link
    EVs: 248 HP / 84 Atk / 176 Def
    Impish Nature
    - Icicle Spear
    - Rapid Spin
    - Spikes
    - Hydro Pump

    i wanted to put cloyster in because entry hazards are a huge threat to a sun team (especially Volcarona) and i needed spin support. i added in Spikes so i had some entry hazards to place. icicle spear and hydro pump are pretty standard STAB moves (although hydro pump is weakened in the rain i needed something to deal with enemy fire pkmn trying to take advantage of my sun). i chose to go heavy on HP and defense EVs and give it leftovers to play to cloyster's strengths which is its resilience and longevity. the main point is to keep it alive long enough to provide spin support throughout the game.

    Starmie @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Psychic
    - Ice Beam
    - Thunderbolt
    - Rapid Spin

    again another spin support. i thought i needed another just in case something goes wrong with cloyster i can't be left without spin, this might be overkill though. starmie also has ice blot/beam coverage and a huge speed stat making it pretty good at exploiting weaknesses in opponent teams. i chose to add psychic because hydro pump is weakened in the sun and psychic is another good STAB move (although i'm now second guessing that choice). again leftovers are to help keep it alive for as long as possible. EVs are pretty standard.

    Dragonite @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Multiscale
    EVs: 44 Atk / 212 Spd / 252 HP
    Adamant Nature
    - Dragon Dance
    - Outrage
    - Fire Punch
    - Earthquake

    Dragonite is my non sun dependent sweeper, i chose to go with bulky DD because i want it to tank a few hits while building DD so it can sweep easily. DD is standard. outrage is questionable, it's power is great but i'm not sure if it's worth getting locked into the move (maybe go for dragon claw and then switch lum berry for leftovers?). fire punch provides a pseudo-STAB move. for the last slot i wanted to go for roost to help keep it's hp up while building DD but i ran into a lot of problems for my team from Heatran so i used earthquake to help deal with him.

    Volcarona @ Leftovers
    Trait: Flame Body
    EVs: 240 HP / 216 Def / 52 Spd
    Bold Nature
    - Quiver Dance
    - Fiery Dance
    - Bug Buzz
    - Morning Sun

    Volcarona is a really good fire type sweeper. i again went bulky to give it a chance to build up quiver dances. fiery dance is better than fire blast for its accuracy and possible stat changes. bug buzz is my anti tyranitar move (other weather teams are a threat to the sun so i need to take tyranitar out quickly). morning sun and leftovers again are to help keep it alive (although leftovers are less important due to morning sun, maybe go for a life orb instead?).

    Ninetales @ Leftovers
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 120 Spd / 136 HP
    Modest Nature
    - Sunny Day
    - Energy Ball
    - Fire Blast
    - Will-O-Wisp

    Ninetales is the standard sun inducer, sunny day is there for predicting when the opponent is going to try to negate the sun by switching in other weather inducers. energy ball gives some coverage and can be used to take a quick shot at a politoed switching in, i chose it over solarbeam because i seem to get into a lot of weather wars and solarbeam only excels in the sun making it useless elsewhere. again leftovers and EV choices are so that i keep my weather inducer alive for as long as possible.

    Venusaur @ Life Orb
    Trait: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Modest Nature
    - Growth
    - SolarBeam
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Synthesis

    Venusaur is great in the sun. he is my cholophyll sweeper but the problem is that out of the sun he's almost useless. growth and synthesis are a lot better in the sun. solarbeam is great in the sun but locks you in when out of the sun. hidden power gives a pseudo-STAB move in the sun but is not great out of the sun. i'm thinking of switching to Giga Drain to give it more use out of the sun (and making it easier to deal with politoed and establish weather control), this then relieves the need for synthesis and frees up a move slot.

    Threats:
    the big threat i have encountered are establishing weather control (especially against poiltoed) and water pokemon in general (although this might be fixed with my proposed changes to Venusaur, before i only had starmie's bolt to deal with them).

    thank you for reading my post and am grateful for any feedback you give
  2. Jimbon

    Jimbon fools and worthless liars
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2012
    Messages:
    511
    Hi there!

    This is a cool Sun team, spin support meaning that Volcarona and Dragonite will have easy switch ins which can mean lots of opportunities to set up. One thing I do see is a weakness to opposing Dragons. Your main sweeper Venusaur is walled by Dragons with your current moveset, while your own Dragon is relatively slow against other common Dragons such as Latios and Salamence. Either of these can cause huge problems for your team, with no Steel type you really have nothing to switch into either of them, and your only hope is to outspeed with Starmie, meaning Scarf Dragons are even more problematic. You can't really hope to revenge either when Venusaur can't do a lot to them. To help with this weakness, I recommend you try out an Offensive Stealth Rock Mamoswine over your current Cloyster. It does seem a little redundant to me to have two spinners on your team, as one is more than enough. If you play well with Starmie, you shouldn't ever need to Spin with Cloyster, not to mention Cloyster is also weak to hazards while Starmie gets access to Recover and Natural Cure. Offensive Stealth Rock Mamoswine gives you much needed hazards on your team. Unlike Cloyster's previous Spikes, Stealth Rock hits everything, breaking sashes and multiscale is too good to pass up. Additionally, Mamoswine also gives you an additional check to the aforementioned Dragons, with powerful priority it forms as a great revenge killer to most common dragons, clearing the way for Venusaur to sweep. Mamoswine's offensive presence also means that it forces a lot of switches, making it very easy for you to get Stealth Rock up. Mamoswine also deals with Tyranitar and Heatran, both of which are problematic for Sun teams to face.

    With 3 Pokemon weak to Rapid Spin, you will have a pretty big reliance on your Spinner to remove hazards on your side of the field. Given that this is a Sun team, you will need to get rid of hazards to continuously keep your weather up against opposing weathers. It helps Ninetales to avoid losing 1/4 of it's health every time you switch in, which is very important in weather wars. To help with these problems, I recommend you change your current Starmie to a Defensive Rapid Spin set. Defensive Starmie seems like a much better fit over your current Life Orb set. Given how much you rely on keeping hazards off the field, you will need Starmie to keep spinning away hazards. Starmie is also very frail with your current set, so it will find it hard to Spin when it takes ~50% from every hit, and lacks Recover to keep Spinning. Defensive Starmie clears up all these problems, with Recover it ensures you can keep Starmie around for a long time. By going Defensive, you don't really lose anything. You gain an additional check to Scarf Terrakion, who can revenge everything on your team right now, as well as a more solid check to Dragons. Honestly, there's no need to go fully offensive with Starmie, when Spinning is much more important for your team, and Volcarona and Venusaur already cover the Special Attacker role well enough.

    Finally, I do think you should change your Venusaur set to be a little more efficient. A set of 80 HP / 252 SAtk / 176 Spe with a Timid Nature seems a lot better for your team. With a Timid Nature and 176 Speed EVs you can outspeed Scarf variants of Terrakion and Latios, both of which are problematic for your team. You also gain some bulk while maximizing offensive power, which is great for switching in on Volt Switches / U-Turns and setting up easier. Your previous set running Modest, Life Orb and Growth does seem a little overkill, while this set Substitutes some of that power into speed giving Venusaur a much better chance at a sweep.

    Cool team, hope I helped!

    Sets (open)
    Starmie @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 248 HP / 32 Def / 228 Spe
    Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
    - Psyshock
    - Ice Beam / Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Recover
    - Rapid Spin

    Mamoswine @ Life Orb
    Trait: Thick Fat
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature (+Spe, -SAtk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Ice Shard
    - Icicle Crash / Superpower
    - Earthquake
  3. Sayonara

    Sayonara don't forget

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2011
    Messages:
    778
    Hey,

    Nice team, prabhbhambra13. I find that your team is really weak against opposing Specially Defensive Heatran, as it completely walls Volcarona, Venusaur, Ninetales and Starmie, while it can easily switch-into Dragonite's Outrage. In Sun, Cloyster's Hydro Pump won't be hitting it hard, and Heatran gets its STAB boosted. I don't really see the need of using 2 Rapid Spin users - Starmie already does a good job at spinning. Another thing I noticed is that you don't have Stealth Rock. This amazing offensive tool would greatly benefit your team, and it prevents opposing Volcarona and Dragonite from getting free switch-ins all the time. To help you deal with Heatran and give your team a Stealth Rock user, I'd recommend a Reversal Dugtrio (see set below) instead of Cloyster. Thanks to Arena Trap, Dugtrio can trap an opponent's Heatran and demolish it with a STAB Earthquake, removing that counter from the game - this greatly helps Volcarona in sweeping. Stealth Rock can easily be set up, and Focus Sash activates when the opponent attacks Dugtrio. When the Focus Sash will be used, Dugtrio will be sitting at 1 HP, which maximizes Reversal's power, and lets Dugtrio annihilate non-Chople Berry Tyranitar, which lets you win the weather war in this situation. Stone Edge is a coverage move that lets you deal with Dragonite / Salamence, who would otherwise use Dugtrio as a set-up fodder. Dugtrio can also be effective in late-game situations, as its 120 Base Speed is really useful to revenge-kill weakened opponents. I'd also second ThatsMyLatios' recommendation of Hidden Power Ice over Hidden Power Fire on Venusaur, as it allows it to get past the plethora of Dragons seen in the metagame. Finally, you may want Psyshock over Psychic on Starmie - this allows it to get past CM Keldeo and Virizion by by-passing their special defense boosts. In addition, Starmie can outspeed them. I find Choice Band Dragonite to be a good fit on your team, as its raw power is devastating for opposing teams, and with Rapid Spin and Stealth Rock support, it can effectively sweep mid-game or late-game. I'd go with Extremespeed over Dragon Dance on the set, and an EV spread of 60 HP / 252 Atk / 196 Spe. Extremespeed hits hard with a Choice Band and is useful to revenge-kill faster and weakened opponents. At the moment, Dragonite doesn't have much of an offensive initial presence, meaning it has to set up in order to do loads of damage, so the extra power would help as a wallbreaker. I don't have much else to add - cool team, and good luck! Hope I helped.
    Reversal Dugtrio (open)

    [​IMG]
    Dugtrio @ Focus Sash | Arena Trap
    Jolly | 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    ~ Reversal
    ~ Earthquake
    ~ Stealth Rock
    ~ Stone Edge
  4. Avatar Korra

    Avatar Korra

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2012
    Messages:
    213
    Hello! You have a very interesting team! You've already gotten some excellent rates but I'll do my best!

    I second Jimbon's suggestion of switching Cloyster over for Mamoswine. Cloyster to me seems like a weak link in this team. Cloyster's weakness to common types like Fighting, Grass, and Electric, as well as SR weakness, prevent it from being a truly effective wall. Like Jimbon said, sun teams, yours especially, have issues with Heatran, Tyranitar, and Dragons. Mamoswine effectively fixes this, while still giving you a much needed hazard that is Stealth Rock. This is the set Jimbon suggested which I recommend:

    [​IMG]
    Mamoswine @ Life Orb
    Thick Fat
    252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Jolly
    - Earthquake
    - Ice Shard
    - Icicle Crash
    - Stealth Rock


    Your reliance on Rapid Spin means you need Starmie to survive as long as possible, so again use Jimbon's set of:

    [​IMG]
    Starmie @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 248 HP / 32 Def / 228 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Psyshock
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Recover
    - Rapid Spin

    With Sun being out, Hydro Pump will be severely weakened so I don't recommend it. Psyshock makes you an effective check against powerful Fighting type Pokemon like Terrakion and Virizion switching in, and HP Fire can help you take out Scizor and Forretress.


    Finally, I would switch your Venusaur set heavily. If Mamoswine goes down, you will pretty much lose to any dragon, so it'd be nice to have Venu not completely walled by them. With a Life Orb, Venusaur becomes very powerful and you don't even have to waste time setting up with Growth. I recommend a purely offensive set:

    [​IMG]
    Venusaur @ Life Orb
    Trait: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 156 Atk / 172 SAtk / 180 Spd
    Naive Nature
    - Sleep Powder
    - SolarBeam
    - Hidden Power Ice
    - Earthquake

    Sleep Powder allows you to pretty much shut down a Pokemon for the rest of the match. Solarbeam hits like a monster and wrecks anything neutral/weak to it. HP Ice is for Dragons and grass types who try and wall Venusaur. Venusaur will still be faster than all scarfed dragons/all dragons with one Dance up with this EV set and sun up. Earthquake is valuable as it causes steel types not to wall Venusaur as well as taking out Tentacruel.


    My one last suggestion is for Ninetales. I would lose the Sunny Day set, as you should never risk staying in on incoming Tyranitar who try and switch in. I would use a more bulky set, which can cripple dangerous threats and be a more effective sun user that survives much longer. As I said while rating a previous sun team:

    "The only way I can see Sunny Day used effectively against Tyranitar is to use it if you predict TTar switching in. However, if you're predicting it to switch in anyways, I would rather permanently cripple it with a burn. Besides, Solarbeam I don't think is strong enough to take out TTar anyways, so there's no way I would stay on it to both Sunny Day and then SolarBeam for the no-kill, while it can take out Ninetales whenever it wants."

    So anyways, Bulky set:

    [​IMG]
    Ninetales @ Leftovers
    Drought
    248 HP / 16 Def / 8 SAtk / 220 SDef / 16 Spd
    Calm Nature
    - Roar
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Pain Split
    - Flamethrower

    Will-O-Wisp is great for crippling dangerous physical threats that like to switch into Ninetails, like Tyranitar. Pain Split is an effective way of healing, ensuring your only 'mon who sets up sun lasts a while, and Roar is good for shuffling around the opponent's team of course.


    Well, that's all I have to say, I hope my suggestions were helpful ^_^
  5. prabhbhambra13

    prabhbhambra13

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    Messages:
    2
    Wow, thanks for all of the great responses. i've made some updates:

    Dugtrio @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Arena Trap
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Reversal
    - Earthquake
    - Stealth Rock
    - Stone Edge

    in for cloyster. helps deal with heatran, adds stealth rock. i prefer dugtrio over the suggestions of mamoswine because i think i have dealt with the possibility of dragons later on in the edits

    Starmie @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Psyshock
    - Ice Beam
    - Recover
    - Rapid Spin

    added psyshock rather than psychic, switched thunderbolt to recover to increase longevity. i didn't add hidden power fire because i think i already have enough fire moves in this team. it feels very fragile though, whenever it's used to do anything rather than spin and then switch out it dies pretty easily, is that just something i have be smart about and just live with?

    Dragonite @ Leftovers
    Trait: Multiscale
    EVs: 252 HP / 44 Atk / 212 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Dragon Dance
    - Outrage
    - Fire Punch
    - Earthquake

    switched to leftovers rather than lum. i tried the choice band set in a few matches and to be honest i prefer bulky dd, i'm still up in the air about choice band/extremespeed though, maybe some more games with it will convince me to switch.

    Volcarona @ Leftovers
    Trait: Flame Body
    EVs: 240 HP / 216 Def / 52 Spd
    Bold Nature
    - Quiver Dance
    - Fiery Dance
    - Bug Buzz
    - Morning Sun

    went untouched because it's awesome

    Ninetales @ Leftovers
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 136 HP / 252 SAtk / 120 Spd
    Modest Nature
    - Fire Blast
    - Energy Ball
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Hypnosis

    switched sunny day (was pretty useless at the time) for hypnosis, new plan is to burn or put to sleep incoming weather threats. i'm still not sure about this though, i have no idea what to put as the last move. Roar and Pain Split were suggested but i'm not sure about them, i don't like the randomness of roar and i don't think that pain split is a very reliable way of healing. ninetales seems to be the hardest aspect of this team to figure out, it doesn't seen to have a role outside of changing the weather.

    Venusaur @ Life Orb
    Trait: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 80 HP / 252 SAtk / 176 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Growth
    - Giga Drain
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Synthesis

    changed hidden power type and solarbeam for giga drain to help against dragons and it's general usefulness outside of the sun, it also counters politoed more efficiently. tweaked EVs to be more efficient.


    so those are the changes, do you think i've covered my weaknesses reasonably? can you help me answer some of the uncertainties i have (drastic changes are still a possibility)?


    finally thank you all so much for your help, it has been very valuable so far <3

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