Nature Swap [Talonflame unbanned!]

i wasnt sure about sharing this because he is my mvp and i dont want people to run around with the same thing but i cant stay quiet.

Breloom @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 12 HP / 244 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leech Seed
- Spore
- Substitute
- Seismic Toss

you'd better be careful with this one, isnt even ohko'd by mega heracross pin missile. only thing that gives it grief is mega gardevoir and cloyster, but they can be killed by other means such as stalling them with tentacruel or vaporeon, which are also both very good.
 
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Okay so I've heard so many complaints about both of these mons, that's why I think it's time to announce the second suspect. This time, there'll be two suspects at once, because I don't think we will have any more time for another suspect after this.

Suspect 2: Blissey + Cloyster


Rules:
1. To determine if Blissey or Cloyster need to be banned or not, we will decide it by voting. To vote, you must have at least 75.0% GXE in ladder, screenshot it and then post it here. Then make your decision by choosing one of the following:
a. Ban Blissey and Cloyster
b. Ban Blissey, do not ban Cloyster
c. Do not ban Blissey, ban Cloyster
d. Do not ban Blissey and Cloyster
Note that you MUST choose one of the four options above, along with reasoning or your vote will not be counted. Any other options aside of the four above also will not be counted.

2. Blissey or Cloyster (or both) will be banned if at least 60% majority the votes are ban votes for either of these mons at the end of the suspect.

3. Because there are two mons being suspected, the suspect will last 5 days at 15th of August 2016 Edit: suspect ends at 17th of August.

4. Please keep civil during the discussion.
 
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Screen Shot 2016-08-11 at 13.19.20.png

Voting ban Cloyster

The problem with Cloyster is that all of its checks are so easily widdled and otherwise handled by another set. They're not counters, it's just checks.

So lets start with standard, Lonely Shell Smash with Focus Sash and Icicle spear, Rock blast and Ice shard. This is probably the most common set, overral, and for good reason. It has very favourable match-up versus the majority of the metagame. Now this can set up if it forces a switch, and since most of Cloysters "counters" can switch into +2 Cloyster, it's likely to get this set-up opportunity. The counters to this set is largely Empoleon. That's basically it.

Mega Scizor w Vacuum Wave

+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 56 Def Mega Scizor: 280-330 (81.6 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 248 HP / 56 Def Mega Scizor: 66-78 (19.2 - 22.7%) -- possible 5HKO

Blissey with Thunderbolt and Lax Nature

252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 285-340 (97.2 - 116%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 335-405 (46.9 - 56.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Empoleon is the only counter, as it's not 2hkod at +2 and can OHKO back. But even then, Empoleon doesn't have recovery, so it can easily be widdled by the Choice Banded Sets, which does this to normal resists and checks


252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 260-310 (64.3 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 200-240 (50.7 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 56 Def Mega Scizor: 210-250 (61.2 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 290-350 (82.3 - 99.4%) -- approx. 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 345-410 (87.5 - 104%) -- approx. 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 330-390 (83.9 - 99.2%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Espeon: 290-350 (86.8 - 104.7%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 290-345 (103.2 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 285-340 (97.2 - 116%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 330-390 (90.9 - 107.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Voting No ban on Blissey

So set aside that this is basically a worse Chansey, Chansey is simply a lot bulkier in all ways and you see that in usage alone, Blissey is always worse in every tier bar AG/Ubers.

You can't replace Blissey. With Chansey gone Blissey was still useful and could fill its role, although slightly worse, but here we go again, trying to suspect it. Blissey has no "worse" pokemon that's going to replace it. Nothing is as bulky, with that utility and with that typing and movepool. I've already made a long

Chansey is hard to deal with, if you run absolute mindless offence.

And I mean that 100%. You guys need to acknowledge that Chansey is one of the most passive pokemon in the entire tier. It can to, at most 100 damage to you. So what you need to do its sprinkle some adaptability into your teambuilding. I'm working on a second post against the debuffs/buffs because they seriously mess up stall... If it weren't for Chansey. Chansey is the one thing that is keeping stall even slightly relevant in Nature swap. Now I'm going to make a huge list! Every viable pokemon in ou, and lets see how they deal with chansey. I'm going to assume it's Relaxed Chansey, 250/50/105 defences with Eviolite, and Softboiled, Toxic, Seismic Toss. Hax isn't factored in, really. I'm going to count knock off as an almost automatic victory since chansey isn't all that good afterwards... that's my opinion atleast.

Clefable wins 1v1 using Calm mind, PP stalls it out of Seismic toss, then Moonblast PP stalls Softboiled
Loses, but it does that in standard as well!
Magma Storm + Taunt can beat Chansey
(46.7 - 55.1%) From Specs Secret sword, or Calm mind can handle it.
Landorus-T learns Knock off. Enough said
Loses, but it does that in standard as well! Trick can lure it
Loses, but it does that in standard as well! Trick can lure it
Knock off its Eviolite, Kill it with SD or Superpower. Mega Scizor wins.
Knock off, U-turn, Regen, Superpower, Taunt ect. Eventually you win.
Chansey wins, this is a new thing Chansey can handle
Belly drum destroys it. Knock off. Superpower 2hkos
SD Flare blitzs 2hkos everything but Lax Chansey
SD 2hkos, but it needs SD now to break Chansey, so that's good for Chansey
Good luck killing it when Leech seed gives it 30% back every turn
Mega SD beats it, regular form without Life orb struggles.
SD as Chansey switch in, SD as it toxics, (6%), SD as it softboils (18%), Earthquake (36%), Kill Chansey (60%) lost. Good counter

HJK is an easy 2hko, 98% chance.
Its three attacks set never beat Chansey, rain dance beats it.
Lmao, alright then. 79% minimum
Chansey does literally nothing to Sableye
Slowbro doesn't care, burns, t-waves ect.
Stallbreaker wins
Knock off. Superpower after that, or taunt.
Chansey always beat this
Knock off
This runs physical right? You heard that right. Knock off + Drain punch :D
The most prominent Knock off user ever, of course this wins :P
This never won
Mega Gardevoir kinda loses now, doesn't it? Psyshock does a lot less. Gard wins if hazards are up and it has Taunt
Stallbreaker wins
Water is wet. Heracross beats Chansey
Chansey doesn't really do a lot, so it's a stalemate, I guess?
This thing is very passive, so Chansey always won.
Chansey now wins
+2 Close Combat does 66% minimum
Sub-Seed wins, +4 also 2hkos.
Stalemate
Chansey always beat Starmie
Terrakion wins
Stalemate, Regen ect. Amoongus really does not care about Chansey
50/50 chance of winning, right?
Taunt doesn't care about Chansey
I think Chansey wins, it can be difficult with the sub/toxic predictions. So definitely not a counter
Stalemate, chansey probably wins since toxic
Why aren't you guys happy Kyurem-Black finally has a counter?! You guys are upset becase one of the best wallbreakers in the game finally isn't an instant win. c'mon now
Yeah this thing hits like wet paper and never beat chansey anyways
Never beats Chansey regardless
See above
Stallbreaker wins
Always lost to Chansey
Toxic wins, if you don't have toxic Slowbro wins
PP stalls easily
Knock off, Leech seed ect.
Knock off, Leech seed ect.
Hone claws beats Chansey, but yeah. It's really sketchy. And I don't use Aerodactyl enough to know lmao
Idk what this runs really. But I think Chansey wins
Defensive DD wins because of Heal bell
Focus punch, Sub, Spore, Leech seed, SD ect.

Yeah... that's S to the start of B. I just got tired af lol.

Please, Chansey is keeping stall alive, it's a really great glue pokemon and is good at what it does, but it's not hard to handle. Don't disregard it when teambuilding, pack some power, pack taunt, knock off, ghost types ect. It's a life-line to stall that isn't the absolute hardest to deal with and provides you with a counter to some literally uncounterable pokemon...

I'll reach reqs but I hope this can sway some opinions!

Thanks for reading!

View attachment 66552

EDIT: Drampa told me to add protect, chansey usually runs Heal bell or Stealth rock over wish tect. Also Mega Gardevoir's physical set wins vs chansey

MacChaeger asked me why I think chansey is a corner stone of stall if its beaten by everything. My response: Because Chansey has defined the metagame into what it is today. Most special attackers in OU need to beat Chansey, or else they're a lot less viable. Chansey has always been one of the most important pokemon on stall, but it's not broken.
View attachment 66590
No ban

Chansey can be difficult, but I plead for those voting ban to reconsider. The metagame is very new, and I already see people adapting to Chansey. Finding new ways to get past it.

Quoting Smogon Dex on Chansey

"Astronomical HP and Special Defense, combined with the ability to use Eviolite, makes Chansey the ultimate wall in OU. Unlike that of her sister Blissey, Chansey's augmented physical bulk with Eviolite allows her to take powerful physical hits, making her a staple on defensively oriented teams. Wish and Natural Cure allow Chansey to heal her teammates and absorb status for them, while access to Seismic Toss and Toxic helps prevent her from being setup bait. Even with two ways of dealing damage, Chansey is still very passive, and because of this she is largely shut down by Taunt. Chansey's defensive typing is also rather poor for a wall, as Normal-types have no resistances and only an immunity to Ghost. Couple this with Eviolite Chansey's inability to hold Leftovers, and it is not all that difficult to wear her down. Chansey is also extremely reliant on Eviolite and loses much of her usefulness if hit by Knock Off or, less commonly, Trick. Nonetheless, Chansey is still one of the best walls in the OU metagame and is a must-use on any stall team."


Checks and Counters
Fighting-types: There are plenty of them in the OU metagame. Keldeo, Terrakion, Mega Heracross, and Breloom are all Pokemon that hit Chansey for super effective damage on her weaker Defense stat.

Wallbreakers: Due to Chansey's lack of Leftovers, wallbreakers wear her down easily. For example, Knock Off Landorus-T 2HKOes Chansey after Knocking Off her Eviolite, specially based Kyurem-B often 2HKOes Chansey with a Specs Ice Beam, Mega Gardevoir can Taunt Chansey and 3HKO her with Psyshock/Return, and Taunt Gengar walls Chansey completely.

Pokemon with Knock Off: As Chansey relies heavily on Eviolite to tank attacks, she loses much of her tanking ability if hit by a Knock Off from the likes of Conkeldurr, Bisharp, and Tornadus-T.

Pokemon with Taunt: If Chansey is hit by Taunt from a Pokemon such as Gengar, Talonflame, or Gliscor, she will be unable to do much, and the opponent can subsequently use her as setup bait.

Status Avoiding: Chansey cannot spread status to Pokemon behind a Substitute, so sweepers such as Substitute + Calm Mind Keldeo can use the move to gain a free turn of setup. Furthermore, if the Pokemon has a maximum HP of 404 or higher, Seismic Toss will fail to break the Substitute in one hit. Similar to Substitute, Lum Berry provides Pokemon with protection from Chansey's attempts to status them. Dragonite, for example, enjoys Lum Berry to protect itself from a single Toxic or Thunder Wave.

Setup Sweepers: Pokemon that do not mind Toxic or Thunder Wave, such as Swords Dance Gliscor, Calm Mind Clefable, Swords Dance Mega Scizor, Calm Mind Mega Sableye, and Swords Dance Bisharp, can all use Chansey as setup bait.

Changed some stuff to fit Nature swap's metagame.
I set the terms of engagement with the most common set, recovery, seismic toss and toxic. I set out to prove that chansey does not wall the entire metagame. And I think I proved that undeniably. Chansey struggles to wall a lot of things, especially when you've even taken it into consideration. I also set the terms of engagement to what a counter is, Chansey switches in a win. I applied that to all of these mons, just to show how adaptable almost all of them are. These aren't low-tier RU mons, c'mon now. These are the best outside of Ubers, and 99% of them have multiple sets and can beat Chansey.

Addressing your issues with my list

Heatran atleast sets up rocks on Chansey, and taunt it's. At the most it can Magma storm + Taunt it, Magma storm is on 27% of Heatran, while taunt and stealth rocks both hover around 63% usage. Again Heatran adapts to one of the most passive pokemon in the metagame. Heatran is also a stallbreaker, roughly 27% of the time, so killing one of the best mons for stall doesn't seem like a bad trade-off in my mind. I'm not saying Chansey isn't going to be a problem for these pokemon, but they do not struggle to beat Chansey in a 1v1. Almost any ghost type with substitute beats Chansey.

Charizard-X argument seems weird, you acknowledge that it wins, right? If your Chansey dies and you haven't even killed Zard-X seems like a bad way to handle it.

Azumarill runs 80 Attack in Nature swap.

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 448-528 (69.7 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 298-352 (46.4 - 54.8%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO

Slowbro is a stalemate. If I have Amoonguss and Slowbro I simply beat Chansey by switching back and forward in between them. That's how passive Chansey is

Your Keldeo argument demands that you have a seperate Keldeo counter in the back, why both going into Chansey then?

Serperior Leech seeds or substitutes on the switch, I'm not sending these pokemon out to beat Chansey. I might, but I'm not. I'm disproving the statement that chansey walls the metagame.

Bisharp is the same deal, it kills Chansey long before Chansey manages to get three Seismic Toss's



"Nobody is saying chansey can't be beaten. It's just a shame having to play this meta with a dedicated chansey counter on your team that needs to stay alive until chansey dies. On paper some of these mons might beat it but once you're in a battle and your mons have taken a bit of damage, you might just find bisharp being in 2hko range of stoss, your tornadus statused or your altaria a bit lower on heal bell pp."

And maybe your Chansey won't have its Eviolite anymore, who knows.

"The only good mons that deal with chansey well are mons that can't get toxiced (heal bell/poison type/steel type) and with recovery like scizor and skarmory, because the rest just gets stossed thrice or toxiced. Also that can't be your only chansey check because if zone catches you on a double you just got walled."

Or... you know... View attachment 66565 View attachment 66566 or View attachment 66569 or View attachment 66570 (Shit).

"So there's ways to deal with it. Chansey doesn't 1v6 teams. Does that mean it's not broken? I know marill counters kyurem-white but I still wouldn't let that roam around in PU. The fact that it puts such huge restraints on teambuilder is enough for me to pull the trigger. And it being an asset to stall should never be a reason to keep it in a tier."

Chansey is a passive blob that preys on those who do not prepare for her, she's immensely reliable on her item and can be widdled by hazards, being prone to literally all of them. Please don't ban Chansey, she's not hard to deal with...
 
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So this isn't relevant to the suspect but one interesting phenomenon I've been exploring involves the one stat that can't be swapped, HP. There are a number of intriguing mons in this metagame that have extremely high HP stats that, in vanilla mons, are balanced by extremely low defenses, leading to pretty average defences overall. I'm talking mons like Drifblim (150/44/54), Wailord (170/45/45), and Wigglytuff (140/45/50). These Pokemon can swap one of those balancing, pitiful defenses for a more average stat, leading to incredible bulk on that side. For instance, take this drifblim set:

Drifblim @ Leftovers
Ability: Aftermath
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Impish Nature (150/80/90/44/54/80)
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Disable
- Knock Off
- Baton Pass

There are endless variants because Drifblim gets a bunch of support moves such as Wisp and Defog, and this spread makes a Calm Mind set pretty appealing. This sets up all over Blisseys of all stripes, which is appreciated, but look how bulky this thing is:
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Drifblim: 304-359 (60.3 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
I'm pretty sure Wailord has its uses too since it too can just switch out either of its attacking stats.
 
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iLlama

Nothing personal, I protect my people


Grains of Salt talked about what Cloyster hits hard predominantly and what can beat Blissey and how. I also noticed that some of his calcs are incorrect, so I'm not sure how he calced things. I'll try and fill in the other side of the issues for both Pokemon in this post as well as address what makes them tick.

After laddering for a couple days, what I've seen is not that any Pokemon is necessarily overpowered or needs a ban (granted some are much better than others, but that's too be expected), it's that not that many people neither know how to teambuild nor how to prepare for the biggest threats of Nature Power. There are many good, strong counters to both Blissey and Cloyster that don't receive as much credit as they deserve (Mega Hera, Machamp, Infernape) and the fact that people aren't utilizing these Pokemon that also happen to thrive in this meta is completely on them. With that in mind, let's address Cloyster and what can 1) outspeed and kill it and 2) what can tank hits and check it.

Outspeed/Kill Cloyster:
+1 200 Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 644-762 (90.1 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
200 Atk Mega Heracross Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 370-440 (153.5 - 182.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
164 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 351-416 (49.1 - 58.2%) -- 63.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
92 SpA Life Orb Infernape Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 242-283 (100.4 - 117.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0+ SpA Technician Mega Scizor Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 252-298 (104.5 - 123.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 291-346 (120.7 - 143.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Machamp Dynamic Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 510-602 (211.6 - 249.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 246-289 (102 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Magnezone Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 428-506 (177.5 - 209.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 186-220 (77.1 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 165-195 (68.4 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Take hits from/Revenge/Check Cloyster:
252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Snorlax: 195-235 (37.2 - 44.8%) -- approx. 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 232 Def Mega Slowbro: 150-180 (38 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 190-225 (47 - 55.6%) -- approx. 7.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Scizor: 170-200 (49.5 - 58.3%) -- approx. 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 105-120 (32.9 - 37.6%) -- approx. 99.3% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Mega Aggron: 145-175 (42.1 - 50.8%) -- approx. 0.4% chance to 2HKO (Atk and Def Switched)
252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 195-235 (42 - 50.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Metagross: 195-235 (64.7 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Mega Heracross: 255-305 (80.9 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Mega Heracross: 123-145 (39 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 255-305 (87 - 104%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO

Realistically, your team doesn't even need a Check to Cloyster, as long as you have a Pokemon that can outspeed and kill it (anything faster than Adamant base 70s). And bare in mind, the important fact that Shell Smash isn't the most viable set for Cloyster (not sure about usage, but Band is simply better), so you will most likely be able to outspeed it. And, if Shell Smash does become/is an issue, we could always just suspect Shell Smash (though I really don't see that happening). Not only that, but the choiced sets are counter-able by just about any priority check and by following what they've locked themselves into.

Moving on, I've noticed that this point hasn't been made yet from what I see, but in case you forgot Cloyster is weak to Rocks and lead rockers are extremely common in this tier (Shuckle, Ferrothorn, etc.). So unless you give your opponent a free defog/spin or sack your rocker, you will already have a counter measure in place. Cloyster also doesn't have a diverse moveset (Explosion, Spear, Blast, Shard), it can really only swap out a move or two from the generic set, so it isn't like you're going to face something you can't be ready for. And don't blame me if you face that one guy that runs a special lure Cloyster with Specs Surf or Ice Beam. Sure, Cloyster is a huge threat in this tier (what wouldn't be with access to a 180 attack stat), but it most certainly is beatable and not by any means broken. NO BAN for Cloyster.

I will add my thoughts on Chansey later when I have time to continue...
 
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Do not ban Blissey.
It still has all the problems Chansey had, except now using overwhelming power is now a more viable option versus Blissey due to its significantly worse bulk.
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Darmanitan Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Blissey: 328-387 (50.3 - 59.3%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Darmanitan Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 263-309 (40.9 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Blissey isn't as reliable a Rock setter as Chansey either. While it can do some stuff that Chansey can't, such as running natures other than Impish nature to use Special attacks effectively (Which is necessary to KO Cloyster/Azumarill and Diggersby as fast as possible to prevent them from boosting to terrifying levels), that opens it up to further problems, such as atrocious Special bulk if a Lax nature is used, or underwhelming Physical bulk if a Relaxed nature is chosen. AJA has already written a whole tirade on why Chansey is easily exploited, and (almost)everything about that works just as well for Blissey.

Ban Cloyster.

At first I was neutral on this issue. But then I realized that my plan against Cloyster is "Go to Blissey, hope it doesn't have Sash, avoid crits on 10 attacks in a row, lose Blissey and have Jirachi/Clefable take heavy damage if any hazards are up whatsoever, and hope that it leaves enough of my team healthy to win". This is ridiculous for such a splashable mon. Additionally, it can run Toxic Spikes over Ice Shard to pressure Stall a lot, especially since the most common Defogger on Stall (Salamence) obviously doesn't want to switch in, and the Magic Bouncers on Stall cannot win if it Shell Smashes on the switch. "But Blissey can OHKO it with Thunderbolt after Rocks!" That doesn't matter when Stall has an absurdly hard time keeping Stealth Rock up in the first place unless its hazard setter is something like Blissey, due to the many hazard removers that beat common Rocks setters on stall. Blissey almost never carries both Stealth Rock and Thunderbolt together due to the 4MSS it causes. Cloyster is extremely unhealthy for the metagame due to its extreme ease in setting up and sweeping teams.
 

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iLlama

Nothing personal, I protect my people
Ban Cloyster.

At first I was neutral on this issue. But then I realized that my plan against Cloyster is "Go to Blissey, hope it doesn't have Sash, avoid crits on 10 attacks in a row, lose Blissey and have Jirachi/Clefable take heavy damage if any hazards are up whatsoever, and hope that it leaves enough of my team healthy to win". This is ridiculous for such a splashable mon. Additionally, it can run Toxic Spikes over Ice Shard to pressure Stall a lot, especially since the most common Defogger on Stall (Salamence) obviously doesn't want to switch in, and the Magic Bouncers on Stall cannot win if it Shell Smashes on the switch. "But Blissey can OHKO it with Thunderbolt after Rocks!" That doesn't matter when Stall has an absurdly hard time keeping Stealth Rock up in the first place unless its hazard setter is something like Blissey, due to the many hazard removers that beat common Rocks setters on stall. Blissey almost never carries both Stealth Rock and Thunderbolt together due to the 4MSS it causes. Cloyster is extremely unhealthy for the metagame due to its extreme ease in setting up and sweeping teams.
Your argument for banning Cloyster revolves around the fact that it beats stall, which is both its job as a wallbreaker and a healthy aspect for the meta (why shape another tier into being Stall heavy/oriented). If this Pokemon is good, common, and beats stall, then either don't run stall, or run a stall team that can handle it. Moving on, you brought up the issue that Cloyster is a pain for you to manage because you rely on sacks and not getting crit and hoping you can kill it. For one, this means your team can't handle Cloyster as a threat so obviously it is an issue, adding one reliable check for Cloyster isn't going to ruin your team composition. This also brings up the issue that you aren't addressing Cloyster on the full-scale of the tier, you're only addressing how it affects you and thus aren't really providing anything to back up a vote.
 


Ok then I think it's time to vote.

Cloyster:
For Cloyster, I feel it's really restricting on Offense. You never know what sets are band or Sash, and they have different counters since Sash switch ins get 2hkod by Band sets. You might think "it's extremely easy to set up Stealth Rocks" but thing is, some of the best setters from what I've seen are suicide leads (Shuckle, Skarmory, Aggron) and I think it's also easy to remove them because Bouncers like Espeon, Spinners like Tentacruel and Starmie or Defoggers like Lati@s, Scizor or even Zapdos are now bulkier or faster depending on the set. Sash setss usually guarantees to get a kill if not sweep the whole team. It's restricting to all playstyles, not just Offense, but Stall as well because the power it has to 2HKO many things.

Blissey
While Blissey, I actually don't really want to suspect this at first but I can see why people cry for it. In comparison to Chansey, Blissey may have less bulk (I posted a calc before that Blissey is 2HKOd by some things that Chansey can't assuming Blissey runs Impish with 75 Def and a spread of 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD). But there are some key factors that make Blissey perform better than Chansey in some ways.
1. Able to outspeed many Paralyzed mon because it has 55 Speed, unlike Chansey which only has 5 Speed. This is crucial because it can recover before your opponent can hit you versus Paralyezd opponent, stalling it more comfortably than Chansey.
2. Leftovers make it harder to wear down with non-direct attack like weather or status.
3. If it's not running Impish, it actually has a pretty usable Special Attack. Someone argued that it's passive, but you can make it viable without being passive (CM Blissey with Relaxed/Lax Nature is actually interesting, someone need to try it I think).
4. Able to withstand Knock Off better, even though it still hates it.

However, does the advantages of Blissey makes it as broken as Chansey's? I don't think so. What about it's influence to the meta? This is a hard question to answer. In one side, Blissey looks just about as unhealthy as Chansey in terms of teambuilding, but I am... kinda not agree with that because unlike Chansey, you can actually bring mons that 2HKO it. But I can understand why people think that way because there are still not a lot of mons can 2hko Blissey. On the other side, Stall as a playstyle needs Blissey I think, because nothing can replace it's role. It's like, a necessary evil, just like Imposter in BH I think.

So my decision? Do not ban Blissey, ban Cloyster
 
Your argument for banning Cloyster revolves around the fact that it beats stall, which is both its job as a wallbreaker and a healthy aspect for the meta (why shape another tier into being Stall heavy/oriented). If this Pokemon is good, common, and beats stall, then either don't run stall, or run a stall team that can handle it. Moving on, you brought up the issue that Cloyster is a pain for you to manage because you rely on sacks and not getting crit and hoping you can kill it. For one, this means your team can't handle Cloyster as a threat so obviously it is an issue, adding one reliable check for Cloyster isn't going to ruin your team composition. This also brings up the issue that you aren't addressing Cloyster on the full-scale of the tier, you're only addressing how it affects you and thus aren't really providing anything to back up a vote.
You don't seem to grasp to concept of what a check and counter is, and that's a whole discussion we shouldn't get into. But you "counters" are certainly not counters, some of them aren't even checks. Your checks work for specific scenarios, of those scenarios you're only going to be capable of revenge killing. And you know exactly what you're doing, you're stacking the situation in your forever to skew the argument.


200 Atk Mega Heracross Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 370-440 (153.5 - 182.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Again, I'm not sure how relevant this is. This is only relevant if you're facing a Cloyster that hasn't set up at all, and is simply letting you kill it. Neither Cloyster or Heracross should switch into each other, seeing as Cloyster easily OHKOs Heracross with an almost 20% margin. And if you magically predict the switch into Cloyster and double into Heracross, then Cloyster will just switch out.

92 SpA Life Orb Infernape Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 242-283 (100.4 - 117.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Neat. Unless it runs Sash though. So again, lets exclude the possibilities of you magically doubling into Cloyster from here on out. In reality you're either directly revenge killing Cloyster which is either a) attacking with its Choice Banded set b) setting up a shell smash. Which in that case...

+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 380-450 (129.6 - 153.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 285-340 (97.2 - 116%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO Slim.


0+ SpA Technician Mega Scizor Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 252-298 (104.5 - 123.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Mega Scizor is actually a pretty close check, but falls under the same category as Infernape. A revenge killer which loses to sash lol.

252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 16 Def Mega Scizor: 215-255 (62.6 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Now you still OHKO back, but this is generally not a switch in because you're left at such low HP)

+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 16 Def Mega Scizor: 285-340 (83 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 248 HP / 16 Def Mega Scizor: 67-80 (19.5 - 23.3%) -- possible 5HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 291-346 (120.7 - 143.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 290-345 (103.2 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Machamp Dynamic Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 510-602 (211.6 - 249.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

You do realise Lonely Cloyster is faster than Jolly Machamp, right? And vacuum wave falls under the same scenario as Infernape, Lucario ect.
252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Machamp: 515-615 (160.4 - 191.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 246-289 (102 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Magnezone Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 428-506 (177.5 - 209.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I'm really not sure which set you are, so lets assume you're Naive for a second. Naive reaches 459 with Scarf, Cloyster is 480 after it shell smash. And again, you have a chance to live it

+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 255-300 (90.7 - 106.7%) -- approx. 37.5% chance to OHKO

or you're Hasty, in that case you do outspeed at +2. However...

252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4- Def Magnezone: 360-425 (128.1 - 151.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

You become very, very frail.

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 186-220 (77.1 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Cloyster: 271-319 (112.4 - 132.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

You forgot to change its defence to 95 with a hasty nature dude.

Anyways.

252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 350-415 (91.1 - 108%) -- approx. 43.8% chance to OHKO

and +2 obviously OHKOs.

Don't try to undermine HeadsILoseTailsYouWin personal experience, she's consistently held top of the ladder so her experience is just as much truth as yours isn't.
 
Hello all, I've been a competitive battler for some time, and finally decided to participate in discussions. So, cheers to that.

Lately I have been trying to use Excadrill as my spinner and a stop to Blissey, but I believe I have encountered an issue with the code. While running an Adamant nature, my Excadrill's Special Attack and Attack are swapped. I was hoping to run a more standard OU set, but this seems impossible. Is this a coding error or am I missing something? I have also noted that a Modest nature swaps Excadrill's Attack and Special Attack in a similar fashion.
 
Hello all, I've been a competitive battler for some time, and finally decided to participate in discussions. So, cheers to that.

Lately I have been trying to use Excadrill as my spinner and a stop to Blissey, but I believe I have encountered an issue with the code. While running an Adamant nature, my Excadrill's Special Attack and Attack are swapped. I was hoping to run a more standard OU set, but this seems impossible. Is this a coding error or am I missing something? I have also noted that a Modest nature swaps Excadrill's Attack and Special Attack in a similar fashion.
That's the point of the metagame. It swaps the stats instead of just applying boosts.
 
Perhaps I wasn't clear. Can I use standard OU natures for there intent or is switching stats mandatory? For example, I just want to use an Excadrill with a high Attack stat without switching anything around. Is that possible?
 
Perhaps I wasn't clear. Can I use standard OU natures for there intent or is switching stats mandatory? For example, I just want to use an Excadrill with a high Attack stat without switching anything around. Is that possible?
Unfortunately not, closest you'll come is running a neutral nature...
 
From the maker of that crappy Trapinch set comes:
Meme #2: The Cloyster Counter

Hariyama @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
- Whirlwind
- Focus Blast
- Fake Out
- Toxic

Fake out + focus blast always kills (70% of the time). Could run rest if you have cleric support. Does nothing against special sets of course.

252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Thick Fat Hariyama: 155-185 (31.5 - 37.6%) -- approx. 0% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Thick Fat Hariyama: 210-245 (42.6 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recover
 
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While that set is hilarious, its not foolproof--it actually only has a 70% chance of success (see: actually landing Focus Blast).

Here's something just as niche but more generally effective in a normal game, even without Cloyster:


Lucario @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Close Combat
- Extreme Speed
- Swords Dance
- Iron Tail

252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Lucario: 140-165 (40.8 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Lucario: 190-225 (55.3 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Close Combat + Extreme Speed always kills Cloyster, obviously. SD + Extreme Speed is still pretty useful even with barely any attack investment, as Lucario's base stats are pretty good.
 
While that set is hilarious, its not foolproof--it actually only has a 70% chance of success (see: actually landing Focus Blast).
Well because you're going to use fakeout on the first turn you come in, you really only get hit twice. So it's the 91% chance to land a focus blast over two turns, vs the <1% of being 3hkod.

But yes lucario, poliwrath and basically any steel that isnt hit neutrally by ice is a good stop. The issue is that Cloysters special sets blow away any of the physical checks and it's only niche because of how good the physical ones are...I.e. if there's a rise in the physical checks, special cloyster may become the norm. And as said above, tspikes can be used to wear down stall.

Also you can just put hydro pump on the physical set and do 80%+ to checks after a smash
 

iLlama

Nothing personal, I protect my people
You don't seem to grasp to concept of what a check and counter is, and that's a whole discussion we shouldn't get into. But you "counters" are certainly not counters, some of them aren't even checks. Your checks work for specific scenarios, of those scenarios you're only going to be capable of revenge killing. And you know exactly what you're doing, you're stacking the situation in your forever to skew the argument.


200 Atk Mega Heracross Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 370-440 (153.5 - 182.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Again, I'm not sure how relevant this is. This is only relevant if you're facing a Cloyster that hasn't set up at all, and is simply letting you kill it. Neither Cloyster or Heracross should switch into each other, seeing as Cloyster easily OHKOs Heracross with an almost 20% margin. And if you magically predict the switch into Cloyster and double into Heracross, then Cloyster will just switch out.

92 SpA Life Orb Infernape Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 242-283 (100.4 - 117.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Neat. Unless it runs Sash though. So again, lets exclude the possibilities of you magically doubling into Cloyster from here on out. In reality you're either directly revenge killing Cloyster which is either a) attacking with its Choice Banded set b) setting up a shell smash. Which in that case...

+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 380-450 (129.6 - 153.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 285-340 (97.2 - 116%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO Slim.


0+ SpA Technician Mega Scizor Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 252-298 (104.5 - 123.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Mega Scizor is actually a pretty close check, but falls under the same category as Infernape. A revenge killer which loses to sash lol.

252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 16 Def Mega Scizor: 215-255 (62.6 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Now you still OHKO back, but this is generally not a switch in because you're left at such low HP)

+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 16 Def Mega Scizor: 285-340 (83 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 248 HP / 16 Def Mega Scizor: 67-80 (19.5 - 23.3%) -- possible 5HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 291-346 (120.7 - 143.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 290-345 (103.2 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Machamp Dynamic Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 510-602 (211.6 - 249.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

You do realise Lonely Cloyster is faster than Jolly Machamp, right? And vacuum wave falls under the same scenario as Infernape, Lucario ect.
252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Machamp: 515-615 (160.4 - 191.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 246-289 (102 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Magnezone Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 428-506 (177.5 - 209.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I'm really not sure which set you are, so lets assume you're Naive for a second. Naive reaches 459 with Scarf, Cloyster is 480 after it shell smash. And again, you have a chance to live it

+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 255-300 (90.7 - 106.7%) -- approx. 37.5% chance to OHKO

or you're Hasty, in that case you do outspeed at +2. However...

252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4- Def Magnezone: 360-425 (128.1 - 151.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

You become very, very frail.

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 186-220 (77.1 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Cloyster: 271-319 (112.4 - 132.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

You forgot to change its defence to 95 with a hasty nature dude.

Anyways.

252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 350-415 (91.1 - 108%) -- approx. 43.8% chance to OHKO

and +2 obviously OHKOs.

Don't try to undermine HeadsILoseTailsYouWin personal experience, she's consistently held top of the ladder so her experience is just as much truth as yours isn't.
See, this is just proving my statement about Cloyster sets. You're mostly saying that +2 Cloyster rips through teams and that there is nothing that can really stop it if it has an unbroken sash. You do realize that banning Shell Smash solves that issue right? If +2 Cloyster is such a problem, why wouldn't you suspect Shell Smash as well as Cloyster so that people can discuss what the actual issue is?
 
See, this is just proving my statement about Cloyster sets. You're mostly saying that +2 Cloyster rips through teams and that there is nothing that can really stop it if it has an unbroken sash. You do realize that banning Shell Smash solves that issue right? If +2 Cloyster is such a problem, why wouldn't you suspect Shell Smash as well as Cloyster so that people can discuss what the actual issue is?
Shell Smash is a complex ban, Shell smash isn't inherently broken or uncompetitive. It has obvious positives and negatives.
 
We've had this kind of discussion many times already. This is like "ban Protean and not Greninja, ban Speed Boost and not Blaziken because that's what makes them broken." If you want a Shell Smash ban, you need to argue that Shell Smash makes other users broken. In other words, argue that Carracosta, Barbaracle, Gorebyss, etc. are banworthy because of Shell Smash. If only one abuser is broken, then why wouldn't you ban the broken abuser instead of unnecessary nerfing other non-broken users?
 
penisdude69.png ns ladder.png
So... Today I try to log in on PS under my alt: penisdude69, and it says that my account is disabled. Great. I logged into it yesterday just fine. It happened without warning and i don't know who did it. I understand that some might find the word penis to be vulgar, BUT it is a proper anatomical term that isn't sourced from vulgarity. That's all I'll say about that, and I'll get onto to the suspect test.
I think Blissey should be banned. Blissey is just too bulky on both the physical and special side in Nature Swap. In standard, Blissey is just extremely bulky on the special side, and just about every physical mon can 2hko it. For this meta, it is the most specially bulky Pokemon, and it's in the top 5 (or top 3 idk) for the most physically bulky Pokemon too (with 75 defense). It's very splashable on teams, and I doubt there's more than 1 or 2 players in the top 20 of the Nature Swap ladder that don't use it (and about half of the people that use Blissey hate themselves for it (like me)). Most people don't find it fun to play against and I imagine this deters a lot of people from playing this meta. To break Blissey you need A)a very powerful physical mon WITH setup B)a strong special attacker with sheer force accompanied with focus miss or fire blast C)a Huge Power mon with a choice band (Medicham-Mega too) D)a ghost Pokemon with substitute E)a Magic Guard Pokemon F) a Magic bounce Pokemon. The Pokemon that fall under A, B, and C may be able to kill the Blissey if the Blissey stays in, but they will for sure get toxiced or paralyzed if they are vulnerable to it. For all the Pokemon that do not fall into those categories, Blissey will just switch in on them and stop all their momentum while it can choose to SToss it, status it, Heal Bell, wish-pass, setup rocks, or just heal. With Blissey gone, people will choose to use walls that specify in either defense or special defense (e.g. physically defensive Salamence and specially defensive Kyurem-B), or choose to use walls that are good in both defenses like Blissey, but weaker (e.g. Alomolomolomola, Hippowdon and Avalugg). I think if Blissey was gone from Nature Swap, then creativity in teambuilding would be more prominent, and the meta would be funner to play.

I'm not sure about Cloyster, so I'll give my thoughts on it later.

Edit: Ban Cloyster
Cloyster can get 180 att, shell smash, and priority. To take a Cloyster down you will most likely have to sack one of your Pokemon first, unless you have one of its few viable checks/counters on your team. After reading some more of the suspect test posts, I think that Cloyster a bit unhealthy for the meta.
 
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Knuckstrike

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Ban Blissey, Save Cloyster

I believe blissey has the same issues as chansey. From the special side they're both as annoying as ever and sure, from the physical side Chansey might take 43% from an attack instead of 47% that blissey takes. That doesn't make it any less bad for the meta. Blissey is barely any worse than chansey so really this is a no-brainer.
I'm not saying there's no checks to blissey or that it beats everything. I think you don't want a mon like this being the defining mon of the metagame, so much that even offense runs a blissey nowadays to blanket check everything that isn't Choiced+ability boosted fighting type attacks.

For cloyster, it's either weak or slow. In either case it's incredibly frail. Contrary to chansey/blissey, the mons that beat this are actually good (like +spe kyurem, priority fighting, etc). Plus it needs a turn of set up to do stuff, so it's able to be played around unlike blissey which just switches into everything.
 

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