NEE - Not Entirely Evolved

[Airfoil]

Didn't they have a stadium with similar rules in the original Pokemon Stadium game?

I like the idea, but the list of Pokemon seems to dwindle....And the main problem is that a lot of these Pokemon were Fully Evolved until Generation 4, and as such, have stats that can compare easily with other Fully Evolved Pokemon (Porygon 2 and Rhydon being the most obvious). You might have to make some clause that bans Pokemon that are too powerful but accepts Pokemon that have stats that are not good enough for standard play.

 

[Pika25]

Pikachu with Light Ball is the cream of the crop in this tier. He is SO broken with that item, he even OHKO's Groudon, Kyogre, and Rayquaza (in ubers, see my sig) and (as a tidbit) the fastest one (31 IV/252 EV Hasty) outpaces the slowest Arceus (0 IV/EV Brave) by one point. So in NEE he would be the uber of ubers (compare to Deoxys-a)

Without LB he would probably be moderate-to-high power anyway because his 55/50 offenses are still pretty good for NEE, not to mention base 90 speed. I would still consider base 35/30/40 defenses frail by NEE standards.

I count 57 chains including Pika's, but only 50 (49?) of them have their mid-stage a non-uber in NEE. (At least that's what I think the numbers are; I will check again later.)

 

[DDRMaster]

Pikachu's also one of the fastest Pokemon in here. It's only outsped by Haunter, Kadabra, Electabuzz, Grovyle, and Magmar unless the opponent has a Choice Scarf. Something like Substitute/Focus Punch/Thunderbolt/Grass Knot would net it atleast one kill if it can force something out (unless something like Dusclops can take all those attacks).

Rhydon's in a similar situation since you basically have to predict if it's using CB Stone Edge (and send in something like Graveler or a Rhydon of your own), CB Earthquake (and send in something immune or Grotle), or Rock Polish (and send in Marshtomp with Surf, Grotle with Energy Ball, Shelgon with Hydro Pump, or Dusclops with Will-O-Wisp). I'm not really sure what could counter a Sub LO set since I think it can OHKO everything faster than it and 2HKO everything slower than it besides Dusclops, which can't Burn it while it's behind a Sub and Rhydon can make 101 Subs to stop Night Shade from breaking them. Although, Earthquake should still be able to break them.

 

[Alan]

Sorry, I haven't been following this thread really, but it sounds p interesting but you said Gabite may be banned if it becomes too powerful, but I would be more concerned about Dragonair, since it has access to stat boosting moves (well, move) in the form of Dragon Dance, which, with screen support, can be a very potent sweeper, even in the UU tier.

Also, thats as few of 3 stage evo's we have, I thought there were more.

 

[Ice-eyes]

Pikachu is way too easy to revenge-kill to be that potent, but it is pretty good. 55/50 offense is NOT good for NEE. Good is base 80-90+. There are pokemon like Haunter, Kadabra and Rhydon in the tier. Pika needs Light Ball to do stuff.

Rhydon is probably the most powerful sweeper in this meta.

 

[gvmgvm40]

Banning things based on theorymon isn't the way to go. IMO the right thing to do when the tournament starts is to have 3-4 practice rounds and then ban things based on qualificants' votes.

That being said, I'd be willing to participate in this tournament.

 

[Stagnant]

I was going to suggest this a long time ago. I would definitely be down for something like this.

 

[muna]

This actually sounds very fun to me. I wouldn't mind testing some of these Pokemon out. This needs a different name though. NFE could also apply to LC Pokemon so we need something more along the lines of Middle-Evolution-Pokemon (MEP) or Second-Stage-Pokemon (SSP).

 

[Airfoil]

I would join. Although, it's like you said, it needs to be tested to see what needs to be added/removed.

I know that Rhydon will be a major problem, and as such, everyone will be carrying something like Marshtomp and Grotle to counter it.

Wartortle would be seen a lot because, as someone mentioned, he is the only Rapid Spinner here, + the fact he can take on Rhydon w/ STAB Surf/Water Spout. Wartortle might even be able to use bite if Haunter and Kadabra become an issue, but it is probably too weak, even when you consider Haunter/Kadabra's low defense.

Roselia would follow in it's Superior form's footstep. It would probably be used w/ Sleep Powder, Toxic Spikes, Spikes (or both) and Leaf Storm in a leading position like it's evo. Haunter would become a common anti-lead w/ Psychic to stop Roselia/Monferno, Focus Sash, and Explosion (just like Azelf). Monferno would also be used as a Fake Out lead to brake sashes. Priority would become near non-existent. Monferno is one of the only Pokemon w/ priority that's not Quick Attack.

lol. CB Huge Power Marill w/ Aqua Jet & CB Bullet Punch Metang. Metang would be a good lead in this tier because of resistance to Explosion from Haunter and Graveler, resistance to Grass and Poison from Roselia, and can hurt Monferno w/ STAB Zen Headbutt/Psychic and EQ as well as SR. Graveler might also act as a slow, bulky lead who sets up SR (but that won't be very common/effective because of the double weakness to grass and water).

Grovyle can use Crunch/Pursuit to handle Haunter and Kadabra and their low defenses (and possibly Dusklops), and Leafblade/Leafstorm will dent Rhydon pretty badly. Dragon Rush/Dragon Pulse or even Dragon Claw could hurt Dragonair, Shelgon, and Gabite. And Leafblade or Brick Break should hurt Vigoroth and Chansey. He can also run Arial Ace for Machoke and opposing grass Pokemon (albeit it's low BP). Thunderpunch could stop Pigeot, Staravia, etc from getting in the way. I would have to run some calculations, but Grovyle should be a really good sweeper.

I think you will have to ban Magneton before you ban Gabite......Magneton resists a lot of these Pokemon's attacks (bar Machoke and Monferno) and his special attack/defense is nothing to laugh at. He also gets Magnet rise, lowering the number of counters he has here.

The teams would look something like those in the Sunset Colosseum on Pokemon Battle Revolution (except w/ somewhat better movepools).


I just realized, Wartortal w/ HP Dark to keep Dusclops/Haunter/Kadabra from annoying him instead of bite. Grovyle w/ HP Flying for Machoke, Monferno, and opposing Grasses. I almost forgot about Hidden Power....

 

[Mattman324]

That was me who noted Wartortle's Rapid Spinning is it's biggest niche.

Don't say Grovile is THAT good. I think his best use is a Scarf revenge killer. Pursuit/Leaf Blade/Brick Break/Leaf Storm or something.

 

[Airfoil]

I wasn't trying to make him sound that good, I am mainly saying that he can be used to fill in gaps in your team and cover weaknesses because of his variant move pool (like Mewtwo in VGC/uber teams, but with less power an more weaknesses), and as such will probably show up on a lot of teams.

lol. I just looked up Togetic, and it would probably be Bulky enough to run a Nasty Plot set, like Togekiss' w/o Air Slash. The only problem is despite it's variant move pool, it has everything except a special fighting, flying (besides Air Cutter, which has 55 BP), or normal attack.

 

[Chinese Dood]

Togetic can do a slow nasty plot baton pass to safely get a sweeper in, which could be pretty deadly potentially.

HP Flying + Flamethrower (if it has two attacks only) provides decent coverage, only resisted by rhydon, graveler, and pupitar. Flamethrower covers steel and electric's resistance to flying. HP Flying + Water Pulse provides better neutral coverage (it is unresisted), but low base power means it'd be relying on the 40% confusion from Water Pulse to win probably haha.

Togetic is probably better off baton passing nasty plots though, since that is what makes it unique.

 

[Airfoil]

I have to agree. I forgot he got Baton Pass. He has a variant move pool, but most of the attacks have too low a BP to hurt much. If your carrying Water Pulse, than it should hurt Graveler and Rhydon because of poor Sp Defense, but not much else.

It's clear Rhydon, Haunter, and Porygon 2 will be broken. lol, Pupitar won't be able to hold his ground as well as his superior does in OU. He has an OK move pool, and OK stats compared to some of the other Pokemon here, but it's outclassed by Rhydon who has much better stats in HP, Attack, and Defense. It also doesn't help that a lot of the Pokemon allowed have access to a water, grass or fighting attack.

I really want to see this become an official tier, now.

 

[Mattman324]

Well, that's something that might make Togetic interesting. Huh, schemepassing... I admit, I never thought of that. To bad Plot and Tri Attack are incompatable...

We should have someone make a server for these types of battles, sorta like what NU did way back when. That way, we can establish an official banlist (Right now, it's looking like Rhydon, Chansey, Kadabra, Haunter, and Light Ball)

 

[anduril38]

Well from what I hear pokemon which are already tiered are banned like Vigoroth, Scyther, Porygon 2, Chansey etc.

 

[Airfoil]

Maybe not all Pokemon. I can't disagree with Porygon 2 (It can hold it's ground very well in OU's finest, let alone this tier). Haunter and Kadabra....I am honestly not sure.....I know they would be broken, but they might not be completely invincible....but they still might have to be banned because of monster move pools, beastly special attack (compared to other pokemon in this tier), and have the highest (kadabra) and second highest (haunter) in speed. I am going to keep out of that argument....

I like how they would add more complexity to teams, and how it would make people think outside of the box w/ handling them. Their movepools and power is still a little too much...

Vigoroth isn't that bad, even if he can be found in other tiers, because while he is fast and strong, their are other Pokemon here with better than 80 in attack, better than 80 in defense, better than 65 in sp defense.....His main niche is his colossal move pool.

Chansey....Chansey....Chansey....

I agree that banning the marshmallow would be the appropriate course of action. W/ 250 HP and 105 Sp Defense....thats too much for most of the Pokemon here to handle. A lot of Pokemon are physically based, and can take advantage of 5 defense....but still....

Syther isn't a middle evo.

Rhydon is a monster. He always has been and always will be. 130 attack is way to high for anything in this tier to handle (probably even too much for Chansey).

Magneton is also a possibility. It seems like only yesterday when he was on top. he has solid defense (bar HP) and is faster than most of the starter Pokemon (which make up a large percentage of this tier)......It would still need to be tested...


Lol. I just thought this, but Spinda and Luvdisc should be allowed. It's not like they are major threats, and they really have no where else to go. lol

 

[Mattman324]

Vigoroth isn't THAT GOOD. It's basically a worse Zangoose, and is sort of... eh, kinda good I guess.

As I said, Haunter, Kadabra, Chansey, Light Ball, maybe Rhydon (still really slow...) and maybe Porygon2.

 

[Airfoil]

While Rhydon is slow, a CB/LO/or even if someone runs Jolly max speed/Scraf and manages to outrun something (albeit unlikely...), it will be too powerfull for anything in this tier too handle. The only thing w/ the defenses is Graveler, who is destroyed by STAB EQ. 130 is more powerful than most of the sweepers, or even defensive Pokemon, in this tier can withstand. He was OU once, and for a reason. His attack is the equivalent to Machamp's.

It would still need to be tested, though, because of all the Water and Grass Pokemon.


I know he isn't, but that helps prove Vigoroth just doesn't have monster enough stats to get him banned, even if he is used in NU (and for some who are risky enough/ bored enough to base a team on him, UU)....There are a lot of Pokemon here who can still take care of him with little to no trouble and have just as high stats/just as variant move pools.

 

[Chinese Dood]

O yeah, Adamant Rock Polish (@Life Orb most likely) Rhydon outspeeds everything in this tier (except for scarfers) if I did not miss anything, so uh... it seems that Rhydon itself could make the metagame overly centralized if it is not banned. It's just a bit too powerful I think, since everything with good defense seems to be weak to Earthquake (well, there's porygon 2, but it obviously can't switch in, and... it might be banned too anyway.)

EDIT: I totally forgot about Dusclops haha. Totally theorymoning here (who isn't?), but with the threat of Dusclops W-o-wing, maybe Rhydon will run Rock Polish sub liechi sets instead of plain RP LO, encouraging teams to run a mach punch / aqua jet / vacuum wave / bullet punch / ice shard user to revenge kill (but of course, chances are most teams would be running one of those anyway). Actually to think of it, Rhydon is weak to quite a lot of priority moves.

 

[Mattman324]

Mainly Vaccum wave and Aqua Jet, even without Solid Rock he has a pretty good base defense, so you either HAVE to hit him 4x weak or hit him specially. Still, there's a lot of water and grass in the tier... (Well, a lot of water in every tier, but eh.)

Again though, playtesting goes first.

 

[muna]

I don't think Kadabra and Haunter should be banned. It falls to any priority move, even though it's ability to trick Choice Specs/Scarf onto Chansey makes it hard to find a reliable switch in.

I believe the same should go for Haunter. It doesn't have Trick and has slightly worse SpA and Spe albeit it has fighting, normal, and ground immunities which give it more chances to switch in. It can come in on Choice Banded Rhydon and Gabite, should they not be banned. Chansey completely walls Haunter, should it not have substitute.

The main reason I think these should not be banned is because of one very reliable conter to both.

Metang @ Choice Band
Adamant
Clear Body
252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
-Bullet Punch
-Pursuit
-Earthquake
-Explosion / Meteor Mash

It can switch in on any of their attacks (except maybe a Specs Haunter Shadow Ball) and you can either KO them with Pursuit if they try to switch or Bullet Punch should they stay in. They are both OHKOs.

 

[Airfoil]

I agree that most priority attacks will KO them, but they still easily outpace everything in this tier and have a gargantuan move pool, which lets them easily take most switch ins.

Rhydon is too powerful for any team that doesn't have Aqua Jet. While there are several good priority users, most priority attacks are physical, and such, Rhydon easily shrugs them off.

But....I still think some testing should be done....If Rhydon and Kadabra are as uber as we all think, then it will show clearly in testing.

 

[TPM]

Hai gaiz
Lairon used Rock Polish.
Lairon used Head Smash.
:D

 

[Mattman324]

Hai gaiz!

Rhydon used Earthquake.

:D

 

[TPM]

Good point, but I think it's pretty obvious that Rhydon doesn't belong here...
How do you plan to handle a Rock Polish set? I guess Dusclops, but Dusclops with SpDef EVs and W-o-W can pretty much handle anything in the tier.
BTW I know from actual experience that this Dragonair set works:
Dragonair/Leftovers
Adamant 252HP/252ATK
Ability - Shed Skin
-Rest
-Sleep Talk
-Dragon Dance
-Outrage
The idea is pretty simple, Dragon Dance before you do anything, then depending on what happens next either DD again or Rest. Now you are never to select Outrage directly unless you know for sure you can clean. Shed Skin is what makes this set awesome; it allows to keep yourself alive longer because you can get more Rests.