New and 'creative' moveset/EV spread thread Mk. 5

I'd still like if I could see some calculations about how well that Mantine and a typical DD Gyrados can take Fire Blasts from different Heatran builds and see how they can do in return with Mantine's Surf and Gyra's Waterfall, respectively.

I'm mainly interested in Choice sets (Such as Heatran Dragon Pulse or Fire Blast, depending on if it's scouting.), a Life Orb HP Grass, etc. I'll give Mantine the edge when it comes to Lava Plume from TormentTran, as that's the biggest advantage over Gyrados I see, as Mantine doesn't give a shit about being burned.
 
I was recently playing around with gimmicky leads. Basically all of them were crap. Eventually I created a lead that actually works and fairs well against most of the OU leads. Without further ado, I present to you...

Lead Scarf Cloyster

Cloyster (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 72 HP/252 Atk/184 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Spikes/Toxic Spikes
- Icicle Spear
- Rock Blast
- Explosion

First off I can tell what you are thinking; why put a scarf on something with such low offensive stats? Well I think it makes one of the best leads there are. For starters, it out-speeds and 2HKOs lead Azelf with Rock-Blast. Cloyster breaks through all Focus Sashes allowing him to OHKO Roserade and Smeargle leads. He OHKOs Ninjask even through a substitute. The only sash lead he has a slight problem with is Lead Ape, who cloyster out-speeds and 2HKOS, meaning that Infernape may get up rocks. To add, Cloyster attracts a lot of taunts. I find this as a good thing, as anyone who actually taunts him get ripped apart Rock Blast/Icicle Spear. When someone taunts Cloyster I take it as a free turn.

Another great thing about him is the fact that he is the definitive Lead Aerodactyl counter. Generally they taunt on turn one, then Cloyster OHKOs with Rock Blast. Because he has a scarf, taunt doesnt bother him at all. Because he doesnt out speed Aerodactyl, they usually expect him to be a standard Cloyster, and they bring in something thinking they will outspeed Cloyster. Generally they don't and Cloyster is able to rack up another KO on an unsuspecting opponent.

Icicle spear is Cloysters coverage move. It may seem pathetic at first, a 50 base power move coming off of a base 95 attack pokemon. But it is still a great way of dealing with Lead Gliscor and Dragonite. Not to mention, with salamence banned from OU, breloom has been showing up a lot; and Cloyster out speeds and OHKOs Breloom through his sub (this causes a lot of ragequits). That makes Cloyster the BEST Breloom counter there is.

Of course with only 95 base attack, there will be a few pokemon who will survive Rock Blast or Icicle Spear. It just happens to be that nearly every pokemon who is >2HKOed is set up fodder for spikes. Cloysters 180 base defense tends to come in handy.

The only leads who he cant get up three layers on or can't prevent them from setting up are Machamp, Heatran, and T-Tar.

Last but not least, Cloyster also annihilates all Trick-Scarf leads. Each of which assure him three layers: the first layer when they use trick, the second when they switch out, and the third when Cloyster out-speeds the switch in.

The speed EVs are for Cloyster to outspeed ScarfTar, which even though Cloyster can barely 3HKO, it still gives him the option of exploding in his face. You could put 252 EVs in speed instead of 184, but this would only allow you to out-speed Scarf Heatran (who resists all your attacks) and Weavile (who no one uses). The EVs in HP give it a little bit extra health and allow it to survive a few crucial attacks. 252 attack is to make him hit less like a wet noodle.

A nice thing about Cloyster is that even after he has done his job as lead, he still has plenty of uses. For one he can come in and Explode on any pokemon slower than ScarfTar (and ScarfTar himself). If he didn't get up layers in the beginning of the game, he can always come back later and set up again. In mid game he can still act as a counter to a lot of pokemon, such as Breloom, Gliscor, Dragonite, and friends.

To summarize:
-Kills all Focus Sash Leads
-Gets free layers on all Trick-Scarf Leads
-Sets up on all bulky leads
-Attracts and counters taunts
-Eats Gliscor and Dragonite for breakfast
-Only loses to three leads
-Makes a good late suicide poke with Explosion
-THE BEST counter for Breloom
-Very unexpected and most people don't know how to handle
 
As much as I hate to admit it, I like the Cloyster set. The accuracy problem is the biggest thing however, I think that hinders the sets viability quite a bit. I will try it out though and see how it works.
 
Oh snap, shoddy glitch abuse. I don't think that's fair to even post in here. I was all excited that another UU might be usable as a lead, and now my hopes are dashed on Wi-Fi yet again.
 
And Cloyster can only switch in after Breloon has got a kill or a sub, as he has no business against Seed Bomb and Focus Punch. The best Breloom counter in existence is Crobat/the Charti Berry Ariados further back in this thread.

Furthermore, the only reason you seem to carry Icicle Spear is to handle Dragonite and Gliscor. Dragonite is already taking huge damage from Rock Blast, while Gliscor... I'm not too sure, but I would switch out expecting Surf, not Icicle Spear.
 
And Cloyster can only switch in after Breloon has got a kill or a sub, as he has no business against Seed Bomb and Focus Punch. The best Breloom counter in existence is Crobat/the Charti Berry Ariados further back in this thread.

Furthermore, the only reason you seem to carry Icicle Spear is to handle Dragonite and Gliscor. Dragonite is already taking huge damage from Rock Blast, while Gliscor... I'm not too sure, but I would switch out expecting Surf, not Icicle Spear.
As a big Breloom user, I'd say Celebi is the best Breloom counter - certainly the best common Breloom counter.
 
I seriously didn't think that sash breaking is a glitch? It kinda makes since that a sash will lose to a multi-hit move. A sash is only suppose to work on a full hp pokemon, if the first of five attacks puts the pokemon on less the full health, it is only logical for it to bypass the sash. I wouldn't really know, since I haven't played a handheld Pokemon game for about two years.

Secondly, there isn't a single other Brelooom-Counter who can break through a sub. It goies something like this; Breloom switches in > your pokemon switches out to Cloyster > Breloom gets a sub > Cloyster uses Icicle Spear > Breloom is in KOing range of 1 layer of spikes or rocks (counting poison heal). Meaning if you have one layer up, you OHKO him. If you both switch in at the same time, you dont need a layer ant you still OHKO him.
 
It should break through a sash - if it can break a sub and continue attacking, logic says it should break a sash and continue.

The reason Cloyster isn't as good as Celebi or Crobat is because Celebi and Crobat can't be hurt by Breloom at all. Cloyster hates a Seed Bomb or Focus Punch. Celebi also doesn't mind being put to sleep.
 
It should break through a sash - if it can break a sub and continue attacking, logic says it should break a sash and continue.
No. Breaking through sashes is a glitch on Shoddy about multi-hit moves. Both the handhelds and Pokemon Online do not have this glitch. That is why this Cloyster could possibly fail as an anti-lead. If something like Azelf has a sash, it still gets rocks up even if you choose to Explode off the bat. Azelf's job is accomplished, and it is free to Explode on another of your Poke. And due to the glitch, if this Cloyster would be used anywhere else than Shoddy, all Cloyster could possibly do is break the sash before something sets up or counterattacks. Or possibly do something like switch in Heatran on either move, Sub up, and ruin your team.

I do not see any quality points behind this Cloyster other than one layer of gauranteed spikes.
 

supermarth64

Here I stand in the light of day
is a Contributor Alumnus
Rock Blast/Icicle Spear breaking through Sash is a glitch because the game considers it to be "1 hit", which is why Focus Sash activates.

Secondly, I'd rather use the Cloyster moveset found here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74647 because after you kill Aerodactyl/Azelf you can still set up layers if the opposing player sends in something that can't really threaten Cloyster. Also, it lets it beat Machamp leads (50% of the time due to confusion)
 
First post, yay?

This guy is something I've had lots of fun with and is on almost every team of mine. I'm sure I could spread the EV's better, but so far it's worked mighty well enough. I'm really open to suggestions on it though.


Girafarig (M) @ Lum Berry
Trait: Early Bird
EVs: 252 Def / 4 Spd / 252 SAtk
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Psychic
- Calm Mind

I put this together after I got sick of being out-stalled by Rest-Talking Suicunes. In a bit of non-theorymon he tends to get Shadow Ball'ed often, so he at least has a good bit of a surprise factor behind him. The Lum berry proves to be pretty useful, since it provides either a quick heal from poison or paralysis or I get a free Rest. One of the nicest things is the near constant resting; Early Bird lets him heal up nice and quick, making it necessary to 2HKO him, and against a +6 anything that's kind of hard without getting psychic'd to death. The BIGGEST problem he has, though, is anything Dark-typed, so theoretically, he's be pretty well paired with a Fighting-type revenge killer. Any critiques or suggestions?
 
The prblem is probably with Psychic's coverage, as you say; being forced to switch out a 6 Calm Mind because they've switched in Ttar or something would be depressing. Isn't there any better move it could use over Pyschic?
 
First off, I'd transfer those SpAtk EVs to HP, so it's easier to set up. I'd also recommend Leftovers; it's more beneficial in the long run.

Overall, I think the set has some advantage over CroCune and the like with its surprise factor, possibly letting you get free Calm Minds against a foe that doesn't realize Griafarig has Early Bird. However, poor stats and terrible type coverage make it a poor choice for a late-game sweeper.
 
sorry if someone has already done this set, but with 70 pages of posts it gets a little tedious looking through all of them to find out about this moveset. also, forgive me for not doing anything with EV's as i am not very experienced in that field and i dont really know exact numbers and what not, i will generalizations tho.

Physical Blastoise

Nature: Adamant
Item: Choice Band or Life Orb(preferred)
EV(generalization): Put most EV's on Attack and some on speed, Blastoise has pretty awesome defenses in my opinion so they may also be a worth investing in, but this set is designed to utilize the decent Attack stat that is only a few points lower than his special attack.
moves:
Earthquake
Aqua Tail
Skull Bash
Avalanche

I'm going to say right off that i am not a very experienced competitive battler so i do not have a vast knowledge of counters or threats, but i have used this Blastoise against some of my friends and they often have a hard time countering it. While its risky to pit Blastoise against a grass or electric type, he does very well at taking them down with Avalanche and Earthquake respectively. I personally am a BIG fan of Avalanche just because it is a really cool attack that does a ton of damage and is useful in many situations, as a result, i place Avalanche on many of my Pokemon that can learn it. Earthquake is an obvious good choice because it counters steel-types and electric-types that otherwise could give Blastoise a hard time. Aqua Tail, great STAB move for Blastoise, tho Waterfall can be substituted, Aqua Tail is preferred because it does more damage. Skull Bash (kind of a filler move but seems to work relatively well) hits other water-types well, and yes i am aware that while it takes two turns to hit and in that time someone could switch in a counter, but the only thing that comes to my mind immediately that can totally devastate Blastoise without getting hurt itself, is Magnezone. Magnezone can counter Skull Bash and attempt to hit with a super-effective electric attack, but if i remember correctly, Blastoise is faster than an un-scarfed Magnezone and can easily Earthquake it away with great power.

As i said, i am unexperience in the field of EV's and competitive battling in general, so this may be the worst moveset imaginable for Blastoise, but in my time playing with this set (which admittedly hasnt been long...), i have only lost once, and that was a golem using explosion because Aqua Tail missed. Please give me your feed back and pointers on this moveset, if there is something you see that can improve this set, please let me know, as Skull Bash is not the best move even tho it is tons of fun to use.
 
sorry if someone has already done this set, but with 70 pages of posts it gets a little tedious looking through all of them to find out about this moveset. also, forgive me for not doing anything with EV's as i am not very experienced in that field and i dont really know exact numbers and what not, i will generalizations tho.

Physical Blastoise

Nature: Adamant
Item: Choice Band or Life Orb(preferred)
EV(generalization): Put most EV's on Attack and some on speed, Blastoise has pretty awesome defenses in my opinion so they may also be a worth investing in, but this set is designed to utilize the decent Attack stat that is only a few points lower than his special attack.
moves:
Earthquake
Aqua Tail
Skull Bash
Avalanche
Don't bother investing in Speed. Blastiose will never outrun anything, so don't waste EVs that could go into defenses for it.

Drop Skull Bash for Body Slam or Return. Water and Normal give unresisted neutral coverage in UU. Also, get rid of all Grass on your enemy's team before sending in Blastoise, as even with Avalanche, you won't do jack shit.

Overall, it's an interesting take, but the very fact you considered Skull Bash tells me you didn't put much thought into this at all, or tested it.
 
Overall, it's an interesting take, but the very fact you considered Skull Bash tells me you didn't put much thought into this at all, or tested it.
I actually have tested it, not in the competitive play you might be talking about, but i said i had played against my friends and it works well, but yes body slam would be something i would get rid of skull bash for. though return would be better because of the damage dealing ability. but body slam does give good paralysis support i guess.
 
I've been using this Metagross for a while and it got me through 37 rounds of the battle tower pretty much by itself.

Metagross @ Zoom Lens
Clear Body - Brave Nature
252 attack/252 HP/4 special defense
0 speed IV

Meteor Mash
Hammer Arm
Zen Headbutt
Earthquake

Metagross has an amazing set of high-power-but-low-accuracy moves. The zoom lens utilizes these moves combined with Metagross's mediocre speed to have perfect accuracy for every move. Meteor Mash is the main STAB, and with the zoom lens, its accuracy is just above 100%. Zen Headbutt is the sencondary STAB option. Earthquake on top of that covers almost every possible type combination. Hammer Arm deals neutral damage to Skarmory, who otherwise resists all other Metagross's attacks. This set covers pretty much everything for neutral or super-effective damage. Max out EVs for HP so it will last, as it has to be able to take many blows in order to fight effectively here. Also max out attack, so it will only have to take one turn from each opponent. the remaining 4 go towards special defense because its defense is already well above average.
 
I've been using this Metagross for a while and it got me through 37 rounds of the battle tower pretty much by itself.

Metagross @ Zoom Lens
Clear Body - Brave Nature
252 attack/252 HP/4 special defense
0 speed IV

Meteor Mash
Hammer Arm
Zen Headbutt
Earthquake

Metagross has an amazing set of high-power-but-low-accuracy moves. The zoom lens utilizes these moves combined with Metagross's mediocre speed to have perfect accuracy for every move. Meteor Mash is the main STAB, and with the zoom lens, its accuracy is just above 100%. Zen Headbutt is the sencondary STAB option. Earthquake on top of that covers almost every possible type combination. Hammer Arm deals neutral damage to Skarmory, who otherwise resists all other Metagross's attacks. This set covers pretty much everything for neutral or super-effective damage. Max out EVs for HP so it will last, as it has to be able to take many blows in order to fight effectively here. Also max out attack, so it will only have to take one turn from each opponent. the remaining 4 go towards special defense because its defense is already well above average.
I'd rather run Thunder or Ice Punch over Hammer Arm to be honest. The only thing that you'd hit harder with Hammer Arm would be Normal types or Tyranitar, and even then, Meteor Mash does a shit-ton to them. I'd rather have a reliable way to smack both Skarmory and Gliscor/Skarmory and Gyrados without relying on Zen Headbutt.

Also, have you considered this for a Trick Room sweeper? Perhaps substituting Macho Brace onto Metagross and running Explosion over Zen Headbutt? It would make a hell of a dent in any team, and then explode on the last turn of Trick Room so you can bring in your next Poke to set it back up.
 
Um... well...how's this?

Rainy Electivire
Electivire @Expert Belt/Life Orb/Damp Rock(?)

Mild|36 Atk|252 SAtk|220 Spe

~Thunder
~Rain Dance
~Cross Chop
~HP Ice/Grass/Water

I've tested this on my RD team before as a Rotom-W-esque replenisher, but it probably needs some different EV spread for it to work, as Thunder can nab the same 2HKOs with lesser SAtk EVs. Help please?

Works like a normal MixVire, except that Thunder is more powerful than Thunderbolt and it has Rain Dance over Flamethrower due to the much lesser damage in rain, and that Scizor already takes a ton if you spam Thunder on your first turn out in rain. The advantage on a RD team is that it can handle most Tyranitar and soak up Electric-type moves, something like a cross between Rotom-W and Bronzong, but with an embarrassing Ground weakness. This may not be too good as Rain teams tend to carry Qwilfish/Omastar/Kabutops, all who are weak to Ground. As such, you have to pack stuff like Crobat and Ludicolo to seriously make up for that.
 
I'd just use the same, equally bad Mixvire on site. With Rain Dance you lose a move that can help with type coverage, and the only thing you get from Rain Dance, is an accurate Thunder, which doesn't come off too well from Electivire's special attack stat as it does from Rotom-W's superior Special attack stat, also keeping in mind that rotom-W gets a very powerful Hydro Pump in Rain. You could say "HP Grass stops Swampert", but rotom-W's Hydro Pump in rain does a shitload of damage to Swampert anyway, so it doesn't make a safe switch-in

So, basically, I really don't see what this set has got over the already piss-poor Mixvire or Rain Support Rotom-W =/
 
@draggonknight: maybe try gyro ball, which works well with macho brace and hammer arm. Oh, if only metagross got curse.
 

haunter

Banned deucer.
gyro ball has been already suggested on other Metagross sets but its uses are really situational and rarely, if ever, Metagross will be able to use it effectively. You're not going to sweep with this set and probably after you faint a Pokemon with hammer harm your opponent is going to switch in something like Heatran or Infernape that can immediately ohko you, forcing you to switch out. Other than that, common Metagross counters either resist gyro ball (see Rotom) or are slow enough to take more damage from meteor mash (Hippowdon), so geneally meteor mash is the best overall choice on every Metagross (the 20% chance of raising the Atk is just a bonus).
 
Okay, my set is bad, but if you've got Jolteon issues, Blissey woes, need a replenisher for rain and an electric resist, use him for all I care. It"s pretty niche, but hey, this thread is where niches, gimmicks and the like luyrk.
 

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