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New and 'creative' moveset/EV spread thread Mk. 5

Discussion in 'Stark Mountain' started by Lee, Oct 21, 2009.

  1. Lucindril

    Lucindril

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2010
    Messages:
    243
    I'm going to give this a go; let's hope I don't get mauled by criticism.

    [​IMG]
    Gliscor @ Leftovers
    Team support
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SpA)

    252 HP/252 Def/4 Atk

    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Knock Off
    - Roost

    While at first glance this just looks like a variant of the stallbreaker, it is actually a brilliant team player that is an excellent option if you're struggling with powerful physical attackers such as Dragonite or Metagross.

    This Gliscor isn't suitable as a lead, but is better to come in after a suicide lead has fainted, or after a bulky lead is switched out. The first thing you'll probably notice is the defensive EV spread; while this isn't common to see on a Gliscor, it takes hits marvellously on the physical side, which allows it to perform its role as a support Pokemon more efficiently. Using this EV spread, Gliscor can't be OHKOd by anything from a +2 Swords Dance Lucario, bar Ice Punch (which will fail to OHKO without the Swords Dance boost)

    The moves are fairly standard for a support Pokemon. Stealth Rock is a great move to use in conjuction with Spikes or Toxic Spikes leads, who are unable to set up their own Stealth Rock. If you're already using an SR lead, however, Toxic and Taunt are both good replacements, although remember that Gliscor won't pull off Taunt as quickly without the Speed EVs. Earthquake is Gliscor's obligatory STAB move that allows him to whittle down his opponent quickly.

    Knock off is probably the most interesting move here. Most Pokemon have some degree of dependency on their item, so no matter what the opponent switches to, they will end up with a Pokemon that can't perform as well due to losing their item. A Pokemon without its Choice item becomes significantly reduced in power, notable examples being Scizor and Flygon. Blissey without Leftovers becomes significantly easy to weaken, just make sure you know Blissey's attacks first, because you don't want to get knocked out by Ice Beam. Using Knock Off on Life Orb Pokemon reduces their effectiveness a fair bit, but also prevents the 10% health loss every turn, adding to their survivability. Finally, Roost allows you to stall out weaker attackers and keep Gliscor alive for as long as possible, not to mention shedding its Flying-type temporarily, which could allow it to take weaker Ice-type attacks if the need arises.

    Magnezone makes a great team mate to this Gliscor, as he can knock off a Shed Shell from Forretress or Skarmory, allowing Magnezone to reliably KO them, although it's best to keep Magnezone hidden until you do so, or else your opponent will instinctively switch out their Steel-type. Gliscor can also switch into Earthquakes aimed at Magnezone, while Magnezone can take most Ice attacks.
  2. Azlanslayer

    Azlanslayer

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2010
    Messages:
    259
    Hey guys, i made a WishBulkUp Gallade when i was making a Mono- Fighting team and it is almost like WishCM Jirachi. Gallade is pretty cool pokemon in BL, any criticism is ok

    [​IMG]
    Gallade @ Leftovers
    Ability: Steadfast
    EVs: 252 HP | 4 Def | 252 SDef
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Wish
    - Earthquake / Protect / Brick Break
    - Bulk Up
    - Zen Headbutt / Stone Edge / Psycho Cut / Shadow Sneak

    At the first glance, Lol? Why Wish? Wish makes it like WishCM Jirachi. Yeah, its a gimmick set. Anyways, Gallade have a High SpD Stat which makes it Unique from other Fighting type pokemon .Being one of the two Psychic/Fighting type and the ability Steadfast to counter Flinch Hax (also making it faster), it can use this set well when it get's Def boost. This set uses Wish, which is like Jirachi, to recover its Health while boosting its Def and Atk stat. Bulk Up is necessary for this set, that boosts Gallade stat, making it poweful (LOL) after +2 or +3 def, taking 30% - 35.6% from CB Scizor Bullet Punch after +2 def boosts. The choice of moves is really depending on your needs, but the STAB Zen Headbutt + Brick Break gives coverage only resisted by Celebi in OU Tier (Not BL). Earthquake + Stone Edge makes the popular combo StoneQuak or something. Protect is preferred because ensures that you get Wish Recovery. ShadowSneakis for Gengar who can ruin you sweep. You can use Close Combat if you don't mind lowering your defense.
    Evs:

    Hp Evs
    are for Bulk, while SpD Evs is for max SpD stat, focusing on only boosting the stats using Bulk Up. Those SpD & Hp Evs ensures Defensive Rotom's Shadow Ball never 2HKOs factoring Leftovers recovery, as well as Roserade's Leaf Storm, that does 42.6% - 50.6%.

    Counters:

    Gengar annoys this set, Shadow ball does alot to Gallade, that does 65.3% - 77.6%, if Gallade brings Shadow Sneak, Gengar loses.

    Anything high in Atk, like Scizor or Metagross, destroys Gallade with ease if it haven't gotten any Def boost

    Comments:

    Shown great success during Late-Game, even Heatran takes alot from +2 Zen Headbutt, 37.5% - 44.3% which is a 3HKO, in return, explosion does 68.5% - 80.9%, so protect is a better choice or not.
  3. broodjekebab

    broodjekebab

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2009
    Messages:
    103
    How about using drain punch? CC drops def and brick break is hardly stronger than drain punch.
    The 2nd move could be zen headbutt/psycho cut, or night slash/shadow sneak if you're afraid of Rhotom's and Celebi's
  4. Colonel Darren

    Colonel Darren

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2010
    Messages:
    495
    This looks almost bog standard for a wall Gliscor, apart from carrying Knock Off over Taunt or Toxic and being an SR user. You might want to go into more detail other than knocking off Shed Shells for Magnezone why we should use this one. I swear it sounded exactly like an already posted analysis.
  5. CBlitz

    CBlitz

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2010
    Messages:
    6
    I'll give this a shot..

    [​IMG]
    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    Timid (+Spe,-Atk)
    252 Spe/252 HP/4 SpA
    Serene Grace
    -Cosmic Power
    -Wish
    -Charge Beam
    -Hidden Power Ice / Psychic (the move, not an HP type)

    The idea is to come in on something locked into a move that Jirachi resists, and then start racking up Cosmic Powers. After just one, Jirachi will reach 354 defense, and will be able to take hits like a champ. When you feel you're done boosting your defenses, Wish up and then use Charge Beam which, with Serene Grace, has a 100% chance to boost your Special Attack. After 1 boost to Special Attack, you hit 355, and that's a decent stat, but it's best to boost it up more. The fourth slot can be given to Hidden Power Ice to give a pseudo-BoltBeam coverage, or Psychic to get a reliable STAB attack.

    I tested this out on Wi-Fi and Shoddy, and it works great if you can set it up. The bane to this sets existence is Critical Hits, as they ignore the defense boosts, and that was how this Jirachi lost a couple times. But that's the case for all boosting tanks.

    Constructive criticism is appreciated. :)
  6. Colonel Darren

    Colonel Darren

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2010
    Messages:
    495
    Swampert roars you out easily unless you have a few boosts of Psychic. Depending on your choice for a true attack (Psychic or HP Ice), you lose to quite a few Pokemon. Also, I do not see how this set can beat a Seismic Toss Blissey in a PP war. This seems like a good choice as a last-stand Pokemon to be honest, when it cannot be phased and prospective counters are weakened. Also, I doubt you can best Tyranitar with just Charge Beam, regardless of Serene Grace boosts if you choose Psychic, and it can do nasty things like Dragon Dance on you.

    It's an imperfect set, yet can be tweaked a bit more, I feel. The main selling point, and perhaps the main complaint, is that you trade a lot of power the CM set brings for durability, namely defense.
  7. min min

    min min

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2010
    Messages:
    939
    I think Wish/Psycho Cut/Bulk Up/Brick Break is better with Leftovers. Protect wastes a moveslot, so it shouldn't be included. You should KO all Exploders before they boom anyway. Gengar can be solved with prediction and Wish/Psycho Cut.

    Good luck with QC!

    EDIT: More Rain lameness...

    Jolteon Rain Lead

    Jolteon @Damp Rock/Focus Sash
    [​IMG]
    Timid|252 SAt|252 Spe|4 HP (or 252 SAtk|248 Spe|8 HP)

    ~Rain Dance
    ~Thunder
    ~Shadow Ball/HP Grass
    ~Baton Pass

    Okay, so first things first. Damp Rock is to maximise rain, and Focus Sash is for when you just need a few quick turns so a Mixed Kingdra can sweep and proceed to replenish his own rain. Most importantly, it maximises survivability so you can at least get a Rain Dance off and one attack.

    Next, running max SAtk is obvious to power up your monsterously deadly Thunder which has 100% accuracy under rain and a 30% chance to hit through Protect (but only in D/P). Running 248 Spe is only when using HP Water as you no longer outspeed opposing positive natured 252 Spe Crobat/Aerodactyl/Jolteon. Hence, it is okay to drop to 248 EVs to outspeed +1 non-positive Gyarados to revenge with Thunder.

    HP Water or Shadow Ball can be used in the third slot, but which is better? Well, Shadow Ball helps revenge Scarf Rotom, who can threaten your water-based rain team with Thunderbolt. It also leaves your speed intact, compared to HP Water which lowers your speed IV by one point. However, when running Shadow Ball you are helpless against Tyranitar, whom can be 2HKOed with HP Water. So, it's pretty much a toss-up here, just pick Shadow Ball for the general speed and utility unless you need more Tyranitar counters.

    EDIT: Scrap HP Water unless Heatran is a problem, as broodjekebab stated that Thunder does 2HKO anyway. However, it takes 3 turns to do so, one to set up Rain, and two to kill it, and there is no telling what he'll switch to in between. HP Grass is a good option to OHKO the 3rd most common lead in OU, Swampert.

    Lastly, Baton Pass is used to scout the opponent's switch-in and dry pass accordingly to the desired sweeper. However, Magnet Rise allow it to face up against Heatran, Metagross and Aerodactyl leads carrying ground-type moves. Beware, though, as the aforementioned leads can still 2HKO you otherwise without resorting to their ground-type attacks.

    EDIT: Magnet Rise is very situational. Baton Pass it is.

    Additional Comments (open)
    In battle, you would always want to Rain Dance first unless up against slower opponents with ground-type moves, in which case you Magnet Rise for safety (if you run it). Also, you might want to run from Aerodactyl and Machamp, as they can either outspeed you to land a Taunt or Earthquake to put you out of commision, or survive one turn against your Thunder and kill you outright. However, both problems are solved somewhat with Focus Sash, albeit at the cost of a longer rain. You then run to your designated sweeper/counter and start attacking. Despite being a suicide lead, Jolteon, unlike Electrode, can come back later again into the battlefield to soak up an electric-type attack, set up rain again, spam its powerful Thunder and/or function as a revenge killer for non-Jolly Gyarados with a Dragon Dance under its scaly belt, or an angry Life Orb Gengar when the rain is down, or even a below-half-health Scarf Tyranitar. Unllike Azelf, it has Volt Absorb, which makes for a valuble immunity to electric in a water-loaded team should you choose to keep it alive. This sets it apart from its suicide Rain Dancing brethen Azelf and Electrode and it thus deserves a slot on any decent Rain Dance team.


    Thanks for the comments! Tell me if it's good enough to go in QC.
  8. broodjekebab

    broodjekebab

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2009
    Messages:
    103
    HP water is useless against Ttar, since Thunder does 51.2% - 60.5% (versus scarfTtar). HP water needs rain to 2HKO, which makes it inferior to Thunder, which comes with a nice paralysis rate to boot.

    HP fighting does a lot more, but still doesn't get a OHKO....79.5% - 94.7%
    HP grass would be a decent alternative, to hit Swampert (the only common lead immune to Thunder).
  9. Shining Kestral

    Shining Kestral

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2010
    Messages:
    318
    Creative Jolteon set, but I can't help but feel that an Azelf could pull off a similar rain starting set better since doesn't fear ground (a valuable immunity to have for a Rain team), can set up rocks as well as rain, can possibly scare of Machamp if they don't want to gamble you holding a Colbur berry, and can go boom if you need it to, yet still be able to come back in if switched out.

    Anyway, I'd go with Shadow Ball/HP Grass and Baton Pass over HP Water and Magnet Rise. HP Water doesn't cut it and Jolteon doesn't really benefit very much with Magnet Rise due to its frailty unless you catch a choiced Pokémon locked in EQ.

    EDIT: And Volt Absorb too.
  10. Don Honchkrorleone

    Don Honchkrorleone

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2010
    Messages:
    765
    Hello guys. I've been using this thing on Wi-Fi for a while and it helped me winning a lot of matches. I don't know if this pokémon with this set had already been discussed, but have fun reading and rating.

    LeadGar (Gengar Lead)

    Gengar @ Focus Sash
    Timid nature (+Spe, -Atk)
    Evs: 4 Def/ 252 Sp. Atk/ 252 Spe
    Ability: Levitate

    ~ Taunt/ Hypnosis
    ~ Shadow Ball
    ~ Focus Blast
    ~ Destiny Bond

    This set may sound odd at first, but this Gengar is very good at taking down some problematic leads, such as Fake Out ones, ScarfStarmie, Dual Screen Azelf and Uxie, Hippowdon, Sashless Roserade, etc. Here are the moves:

    Taunt or Hypnosis: Taunt is a fantastic move on such fast leads as Gengar. It disallows SR, (Toxic) Spikes, Trick, Taunt, Baton Pass, etc., and can mess up with many leads (Ninjask, DS Uxie, DS Azelf, Smeargle, etc.). Hypnosis, pn the other hand, may have poor accuracy, but is useful to cripple Lumless leads you may have trouble (Jirachi, Iron Ball Metagross, Machamp, etc.).

    Shadow Ball: Main STAB, strong and reliable, helps a lot against frail leads (Roserade, Infernape), especially when they're weak to it (Azelf, Uxie, Starmie).

    Focus Blast: To give unresisted coverage, severely damaging any lead that resists to Shadow Ball (Empoleon, Smeargle, Tyranitar), as well who is hit by it SE (Abomasnow, Cloyster, Magnezone)

    Destiny Bond: The magic of this set. Think Frosslass with better stats and movepool, worse STAB and no Spikes. Usefull for taking down attackers that will 2HKO Gengar (Mamoswine, Scarf Jirachi without Trick, Metagross with only Bullet Punch, etc). Useful to play mind games: do I stay and die or switch to something to take an attack ?

    This set list of counters is large, usually slower move + priority leads (Machamp, Metagross, Empoleon, Mamoswine, etc) since Destiny Bond will go on the first move and then they'll attack first. Hax leads such as Aerodactyl and Scarf Jirachi are annoying if Gengar flinches. But all this leads are usually taken down by my other team members.

    Feel free to use and post positive criticism.
  11. Colonel Darren

    Colonel Darren

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2010
    Messages:
    495
    This is not a new set in the least bit. This is a fairly typical HypnosisGar lead, only with Taunt as an option over Hypnosis.
  12. kyu

    kyu

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2007
    Messages:
    76
    Anti-Lead Suicune
    [​IMG]
    Modest Suicune @ Lum Berry
    252 SpAtk / 28 Def / 228 Spe
    Pressure
    - Hydro Pump
    - Icy Wind
    - Hidden Power (Grass)
    - Rest / Roar / Surf / Ice Beam


    Suicune can cripple many common leads and is bulky enough to be useful late-game as a Heatran check. The idea is to use Icy Wind as a pseudo-priority move against faster leads; it breaks sash, simultaneously lowering their speed level. 228 EVs brings his speed to 263, which is enough to outrun Aerodactyl after Icy Wind, as well as anything with 70 base speed (like Breloom). 252+ special attack gives him enough power to 2HKO bulkier leads like Machamp and Swampert. I dumped the remaining 28 EVs into defense, although you could conceivably put 8 in HP for stealth rocks?

    Notable failures are Azelf, Starmie, and Roserade. He can't really do anything to any of them. Another downside of using Suicune over something like Machamp is that his moves aren't quite as difficult to counter; Kingdra in particular can switch in and get a free Substitute/DD, so if you don't have something that can comfortably take hits from +1 Kingdra, Roar is a possible fourth move. Rest is also an interesting choice with Lum Berry/Cleric support, and Ice Beam or Surf can be used if Hydro Pump's unreliability is a concern.

    I came up with this set last night, so I haven't had a lot of time to test it and I don't know if it's worth using over other anti-leads, but let me know what you think. How it fares against other leads:

    Show Hide
    Azelf: Icy Wind + Hydro Pump will always kill basic lead Azelf as long as both moves hit (76% of the time) but unfortunately Suicune can't really beat the Colbur Berry or Dual Screen leads. Azelf is probably the most significant weakness of this set.

    Machamp: Hydro Pump 2HKOs 98.5% of the time (not including critical hits), and never misses thanks to No Guard. Lum Berry cures the confusion induced by DynamicPunch. Even if his DynamicPunch critical hits, it will kill Suicune less than 44% of the time.

    Aerodactyl: The EVs bring you to 263 speed, enough to outrun max speed Aerodactyl after Icy Wind's speed drop. Hydro Pump will kill him after that, but if the low accuracy bothers you, you can run Surf or Ice Beam in the fourth slot.

    Metagross: The only thing he can threaten you with is first turn Explosion, Hydro Pump 2HKOs.

    Swampert: Hidden Power Grass always 2HKOs. It's pretty weak against common switch-ins, though, so it might be worthwhile to Hydro Pump turn 1 or 2.

    Jirachi: Scarfed Jirachi's ThunderPunch 3HKO's Suicune, while Suicune's Hydro Pump will 2HKO 63% of the time (.985*.64; this is the probability that both Pumps will hit and do sufficient damage). It's not ideal, but you should still have a slight advantage.

    Infernape: Fake Out + Grass Knot fails to KO. It might be worth using Icy Wind first; although it won't do significant damage, it will break sash and let you pick him off with Surf/Hydro Pump.

    Roserade: Switch out because Leaf Storm will OHKO.

    Heatran: Nothing to worry about besides first turn Explosion.
  13. SandslashPWNS

    SandslashPWNS

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2009
    Messages:
    76
    On the Anti-Lead Suicune, Hidden Power Grass is pretty ineffective, seeing as Swampert can't do anything to you anyway, so Ice Beam should be slashed, or better yet, occupying Hidden Power Grass' spot on the set. Other than that, this set looks really effective.
  14. Colonel Darren

    Colonel Darren

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2010
    Messages:
    495
    I agree. My preferred layout of moves for that Suicune is IcyWind/HydroPump/Ice Beam/Roar. That way if Roserade's user is stupid and tries to Sleep you first turn its out, you can Icy Wind first turn and then Ice Beam the second or switch. You will have a guaranteed KO on Aero from Icy Wind/Ice Beam or Double Ice Beam. You can Roar out setup Poke like Gyrados or the like.

    I would also reccomend having HP Electric as an option, in case you intend to use this Suicune later on in the match after it's lead role is accomplished. You are fairly weak to other Water Types at this point, and Ice Beam won't do jack to Gyrados/Tentacruel/etc.
  15. kyu

    kyu

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2007
    Messages:
    76
    Well, I don't think relying on the ignorance of your opponent is a good strategy. In order for this set to be effective, you would probably need something that could reliably switch in on Roserade and Starmie. Ice Beam and Surf both guarantee the kill on Aerodactyl after Icy Wind; Surf is better against Infernape while Ice Beam would probably give more useful coverage late game. I guess that spot can be slashed Surf / Ice Beam / HP Grass / Electric.

    Although you don't necessarily need HP Grass for Swampert, most Swampert leads will confidently set up Stealth Rocks first turn and then switch if they can't do anything else. HP Grass cripples him, so even if he switches he won't be a huge concern later on. If your team doesn't mind Swampert, HP Electric is definitely a good alternative because Suicune is a great Gyarados check.

    Edit: How is this?

    I think HP Electric has a ~97% chance of finishing Aerodactyl after Icy Wind, which is better than Hydro Pump but still not ideal.
  16. Colonel Darren

    Colonel Darren

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2010
    Messages:
    495
    Honestly, there are a lot of alleged 2HKOs that have less than 3% of failing, so I'd think it rather grand. Besides, I'd rather have a 3% chance to miss the KO than a 15-20% chance gambling on Hydro Pump. Either way, you would be attacking first after Icy Wind.

    I rather like the set, and may test it out later. And yes, I would think the HP choice would be reliant on if your team hates Swampert or not. Honestly, none of my teams ever had much issue, so I think that's why I preferred HP Electric.
  17. Sandstreamer

    Sandstreamer

    Joined:
    May 27, 2010
    Messages:
    282
    I once used a Mixed Scizor like this (not in 6vs6, though). LO HP Fire still allows for a 2HKO on Forretress, I think. So you get the same there. I do not know what it does to other threats, though. But LO is far more useable in general than the Berry.
  18. Colonel Darren

    Colonel Darren

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2010
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    495
    Life Orb also keeps the suprise factor in check. Most would assume Scizor to be likely a Swords Dance variant if they see you Bullet Punch and Bug Bite (Moreso on Bug Bite.) if you change your attacks once, and people do pay attention for Recoil.

    However, I still don't see it as completely viable. Just screams too much like a 1-shot gimmick to me.
  19. Joel

    Joel

    Joined:
    May 15, 2009
    Messages:
    1,203
    LeadKiss (No Trick)

    [​IMG](@ Leftovers / Life Orb)
    Ability: Serene Grace
    Nature: Quiet (+SpAtk / - Speed)
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 SpAtk / 4 Speed
    Moveset:
    - Body Slam
    - Air Slash
    - Aura Sphere / Fire Blast
    - Softboiled / Roost / Wish

    Seeing Togekiss in the lead possisstion on any team usually means one of two things. It's pack Choice Scarf (and usually Trick, as well), or it's going to throw out a thunder Wave n anything it can't outspeed.

    This set give it one more option in the lead spot. Should the opponents lead attempt to Taunt, they find themselves on the end of a STAB Body Slam that will do a surprisingly good ammount of damage, hitting Azelf and Infernape leads for just over 50% damage, and a 60% paralysis rate, to get the 2HKO.

    Should they switch, they have the same chance of being paralyzed, and you have the option of switching to a new move, as oppossed to being locked into a move as the Choice Scarf variant allows you to do. This will also allow you a chance to paralyze Scarf Flygon, which you normally can not do.

    4 Speed EVs will still always let you out speed lead Machamp, to hit for SE on turn one, with a good chance for the flinch. You also will also outspeed non-Scarfed neutral natured Tyranitar, and any Bronzong.

    Later in the battle Togekiss can be brought back to do it's dirty work the same way it most generally tries to do. First the paralysis, then the flinch, or the SE attack from either Aura Sphere or Fire Blast.

    Beware of Gengar and Mismagus later in the battle, becuse they rape this this set.
  20. eXeggutoraped

    eXeggutoraped

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2010
    Messages:
    51
    is icy wind really needed? I mean 228 speed ev investmet and you still need icy wind to beat things. I guess Lum Berry kills machamp but i'm going guess that suicine really needs a life orb to get KO's.
    It's an interseting idea so i'll make my own spread.

    Modest Suicune @ Lum Berry
    252 SpAtk / 252 hp / 4 Spe
    Pressure
    - Surf
    - Ice Beam
    - HP (Grass)/(electric)
    - Roar
    You could be ballzy and run magic coat over "HP X" and use a life orb, eh see what happens when i test it.

    WIP THREAT LIST (i got high hopes for this)

    Azelf - SR. Explode. Dead.
  21. Fear The Pika

    Fear The Pika

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2009
    Messages:
    1,288
    Yeah, it kinda is a one-shot gimmick, but it does work with the surprise factor. It wouldn't work at all if it ever became super popular (as if), but I've found that it does work pretty well, especially when you bluff the choice item to the point where you "have" to be choiced.

    Might I suggest E-speed? If lead Azelf explodes after you Body Slam it (assuming no parahax), you die. But E-speed would let you nab the KO and guarantee that they don't get SR up or explode on you.
  22. kyu

    kyu

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2007
    Messages:
    76
    Well, the idea with Icy Wind is that it allows Suicune to get rid of the opposing lead's Focus Sash first turn, and then outspeed and finish it second turn. 228 EVs + Icy Wind are necessary to outspeed Aerodactyl and kill him before he can explode on you.

    I did most of the damage calculations against other leads (look in the box thing), and although Life Orb would help, it can get a lot of relevant 2HKOs without it. Without Life Orb, you can usually still keep Suicune alive and use it late-game as a check for Heatran, Gyarados, and even DDNite (it can take a +1 Outrage after Stealth Rocks, but only from full health).

    Life Orb might be worth noting as an alternate item; Life Orb + Surf would make certain 2HKO's more reliable, and he would be able to beat Colbur Berry Azelf (LO Icy Wind + Hydro Pump). I would still rather prepare for Machamp than for Azelf because generally it's harder for the rest of your team to check Machamp; the only viable Machamp counter is also a bulky water and might be redundant to use in conjunction with Suicune.

    Threat list for the spread and moveset I posted: Azelf, Roserade, Starmie. I brainstormed potential synergies, and so far the best I could think of is Scarf Scizor. He can come in safely, not expecting to get Fire Blasted by Azelf and taking little from Roserade's Leaf Storm, and u-turn out.

    So, I suggested it in QC, and it got locked right away... the first people to respond didn't seem to understand how it works, and according to the mod who locked my thread, it fails to meet the definition of "anti-lead"...

    If you're interested, I did some damage calculations in the locked QC thread:

    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78435

    Hydro Pump gives you the power necessary to 2HKO leads like Machamp, Metagross, Jirachi, and OHKO Heatran. Surf lacks power without Life Orb/CM, so it would only be better against frail leads (Aerodactyl and Infernape) that you don't want to risk missing against. Thanks for trying it out. :)
  23. Whamstas

    Whamstas

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2009
    Messages:
    11
    Hey guys. Maybe this has been posted, or something similar, but I love this lead.

    Skarmory @ Lum Berry
    Nature: Adamant
    EVs: 252 HP/ 64 Atk/ 16 Spe/ 176 Sp. Def

    - Taunt
    - Stealth Rock
    - Brave Bird
    - Whirlwind

    This lead is meant to set up SR and counter the two leads I detest the most: lead Machamp and lead Roserade. It's fairly simple to use really, just taunt rade and set up SR in her face, then BB her if she stays in for some reason to HP fire you, which is what the sp.def evs are for. You can just SR and BB lead machamp, BB does around 80%, leaving him easy pickings for a u-turn or any faster attacker. Pair this guy up with a sub-cune for lead apes/ heatrans, and you're good to go.

    P.S. It also counters smeargle leads ;p
  24. blasphemy1

    blasphemy1

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2007
    Messages:
    3,693
    The Skarmory set seems really solid. People use Skarmory in the lead position quite often, but I think this set is more efficient. You can stop Swampert/Metagross/Forretress from setting up entry hazards, while setting up your own. I'll have to give that a shot.
  25. Azlanslayer

    Azlanslayer

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2010
    Messages:
    259
    It looks like vashta's just a different Ev Spread and Nature. I wonder why Adamant and not impish? Brave Bird still KOs Machamp when being Impish. Other than that Skarmory is a effective lead.

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