New and 'creative' moveset/EV spread thread - UU Edition

[Valantaro]

Bulky Shellfish
Kingler (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Shell Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 SDef
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Amnesia
- Crabhammer
- Toxic
- X-Scissor/Haze

Me and Radiance were makin' sets tonite and came across Kingler's Defense. Base 115 Defense, yet it doesn't get a mention in the analysis. Then we noticed that Kingler could learn Amnesia which would allow it to take hits from both sides. The goal of this set is simple; Come in on a Poke that fears Kingler and either Amnesia or Toxic on the switch. I usually just Toxic as they switch to a wall of some sort, usually Milo. Crabhammer and X-Scissor are the two attacking moves on this set, X-Scissor takes care of Sceptile mainly and hit's Venusaur for neutral. 252 HP Ev's are obvious. The 96 SDef EV's allow Kingler to survive a Timid Raikou's Thunderbolt 100% of the time unless it's carrying a Life Orb, or Hail/SS is up. He can then Toxic which is very good against SubCM sets or Crabahmmer if the Kou decides to Sub. Rest of the EV's were pumped into Def. Haze can be used over X-Scissor if you fear being setup on. Basically this set can come in on something it threatens and cripple a Poke with Toxic, or can wall various other threats for a limited amount of time. That's why Wish support is recommended with this set.

The main issue I see this set is the fact that Slowbro outclasses it nearly entirely. It’s much bulkier than it, both on the Special and Physical side, possesses a Fighting resistance as well as Psychic resistance. Slowbro can run Amnesia and Toxic as well, however, it can afford to use Slack Off, lessening the need for Wish support. Psychic also hits Venusaur which you mentioned much harder than Kingler’s X-Scissor. The only real threat I can see Kingler being more useful against is the likes of Houndoom, however, even an unboosted Dark Pulse deals anywhere from 71%-83%, meaning it obviously can’t switch-in on even a resisted Fire Blast.
Perhaps you can elaborate as how to how Kingler is more effective than Slowbro for this role?

 

[MagicMaster87]

Why would you run Amnesia (or any stat-boosting move, for that matter) and Haze on the same set?

Also, Slowbro has access to Calm Mind, so it can boost its power at the same time it boosts its bulkiness, even allowing it to possibly sweep. I too would like to know how this Kingler is any better than Slowbro as a wall.

 

[Heysup]

Why would you run Amnesia (or any stat-boosting move, for that matter) and Haze on the same set?

Also, Slowbro has access to Calm Mind, so it can boost its power at the same time it boosts its bulkiness, even allowing it to possibly sweep. I too would like to know how this Kingler is any better than Slowbro as a wall.

Slowbro also has Amnesia too iirc, meaning it basically 100% outclasses this set unless you need Crabhammer / physical attacks for something.

 

[Valantaro]

To be honest, the best (read: only) way to make sure Kingler isn’t playing an inferior defensive role in contrast to Slowbro when using that set is to throw Knock Off on it, preferably over Amnesia since things that will be hitting you for super effective (Raikou’s Thunderbolt, Sceptile’s Leaf Storm, etc…) will still be OHKOing you even after the Amnesia, so you might as well try and strip them off their boosting item and essentially cripple them. Knock Off is too good a move to ignore honestly, and for something that is outclassed, it is highly useful to differentiate itself from other bulky waters.

I would keep Haze, as it can make you somewhat of a DD Feraligatr counter, as an unboosted Return will only deal 28% on average (33% with Life Orb).

So uh, yeah. Defensive Kingler would probably be something along the lines of:

Kingler (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Shell Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 SDef
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Knock Off
- Crabhammer
- Toxic
- X-Scissor/Haze

I don’t know if those Special Defense Evs are necessary anymore, might want to delegate them to Attack, Speed, or even dump them into Defense unless I’m missing something.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

So I have been pondering lately about how shitty the current standard lead Spiritomb is, relying on two weak attacks with poor coverage and damage output, rendering it set-up bait for so many Pokemon. This shouldn’t be, as Spiritomb has almost the perfect typing to take on the current UU lead scene along with two decent attacking stats that shouldn’t be wasted. I have therefore been pondering how to make best use of Spiritomb as a lead. My first thought was that I needed at least 3 attacks in order to have the coverage required to be a significant threat to everything Spiritomb needs to threaten, and therefore I needed to decide on the best containing support move; Will-o-wisp or Pain Split? But then I thought to myself: I play mainly aggressively, and when was the last time one of those moves was more useful over another potential attacking slot? At that point I just said to hell with it, and set my sights on creating a purely aggressive Spiritomb lead:

Aggressive Anti-Lead Tomb
Spiritomb @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 244 HP / 48 Atk / 204 SAtk / 12 Spe
Quiet nature (+SAtk, -Spe)
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Fighting] / Hidden Power [Rock]
- Shadow Sneak
- Sucker Punch / Pursuit

This set is great for taking on almost all the common leads you’re likely to face. Shadow Ball is the main attack, and hits reasonably hard off 297 special attack with the Spooky Plate boost. Here are a few calcs against some of the most common leads that Spiritomb is likely to face:

Shadow Ball vs. 252 / 4 Uxie: 207-246 HP (58.47 - 69.49%)

Shadow Ball vs. 252 / 0 Alakazam: 297-351 HP (94.59 - 111.78%)

Shadow Ball vs. 248 / 0 Froslass: 351-414 HP (102.33 - 120.70%)

Shadow Ball vs. 252 / 4 Omastar: 172-204 HP (50.0 - 59.3%)

Shadow Ball vs. 252 / 96 Cloyster: 205-243 HP (67.43 - 79.93%)

Shadow Ball vs. 252 / 0 Spiritomb: 123-145 HP (40.46 - 47.70%)

Shadow Ball vs. 192 / 0 Arcanine: 156-184 HP (42.27 - 49.86%)

Shadow Ball vs. 252 / 0 Donphan: 195-231 HP (50.78 - 60.16%)

So we can see that most of the leads that like to set up early will be taking a huge hit from this Spiritomb, being at least 2HKO’d almost every time, although you would most likely want to switch out of Arcanine as it doesn’t set up anything and will probably just Flare Blitz you for heavy damage. Shadow Ball is also good for hitting some of the things that either Spiritomb can check fairly well or would sometimes see Spiritomb as a free setup opportunity. Here are a couple of key examples:

Shadow Ball vs. 4 / 0 Gallade: 234-276 HP (84.17 - 99.28%)

Shadow Ball vs. 4 / 0 Blaziken: 175-207 HP (57.95 - 68.54%)

So it is clear that Shadow Ball is very useful on this set and is my most used attack. In the special coverage slot, HP Fighting vs. HP Rock can be a tough choice, which is why I have slashed both in, but I personally prefer HP Fighting for best neutral coverage alongside Shadow Ball. HP Fighting is great for hitting Ambipom, Steelix and Absol in particular, whilst HP Rock is useful if you want to hit the likes of Moltres and Honchkrow hard, as well as Swellow, but I’ll come back to that later. Here are some calcs for both moves against the key Pokemon:

HP Fighting -

vs. 4 / 0 Ambipom: 178-210 HP (60.96 - 71.92%)

vs. 252 / 252+ Steelix: 120-142 HP (33.9 - 40.11%)

vs. 4 / 0 Absol: 192-226 HP (70.59 - 83.09%)

HP Rock -

vs. 4 / 0 Moltres: 292-344 HP (90.68 - 106.83%)

vs. 4 / 0 Honchkrow: 214-252 HP (62.57 - 73.68%)

vs. 4 / 0 Swellow: 220-260 HP (83.97 - 99.24%)

None of these Pokemon can OHKO Spiritomb with their standard sets barring crit-hax, and many have to take some kind of recoil to really hurt it. So it is safe to say that Spiritomb can take on any of these Pokemon well at full health depending on the Hidden Power, or at least punish their setup attempt.

The third slot is dedicated to Spiritomb’s reliable priority move in Shadow Sneak. This is essential for a number of reasons, the main one being to finish off any Sash users in the lead position, Froslass being the most common. It is also great for getting a strong hit in on the likes of Gallade and Mismagius for times when I can’t take a hit and Shadow Ball back, or for situations where it simply does more damage. Here are the calcs:

Shadow Sneak -

vs. 4 / 0 Gallade: 144-171 HP (51.8 - 61.51%)

vs. 48 / 0 Mismagius: 153-183 HP (56.04 - 67.03%)

This is in addition to it just being a great priority move and finisher in general. Blaziken is a particularly interesting case:

Shadow Sneak vs. 4 / 0 Blaziken: 69-82 HP (22.85 - 27.15%)

Combined with Shadow Ball calc above, we can see that the two moves hit for an average damage of 88%, which is a 2HKO with any possible hazard, and a chance of a 2HKO with a round of LO recoil and no hazards. Suffice to say that Blaziken cannot reliably exploit this Spiritomb whether it comes in on Shadow Ball or not.

Now in the last slot the choice is between Sucker Punch and Pursuit. I personally use Sucker Punch, but Pursuit is there as a viable alternative for teams that need Pursuit support, and Spiritomb does that well against various Ghosts and Psychics, in addition to Ambipom. Sucker Punch, however, is great in my experience, and can be a great surprise for Ambipoms deciding to U-turn out after being hit by HP Fighting on a possible Taunt, expecting a mostly special set:

Sucker Punch vs. 4 / 0 Ambipom: 118-141 HP (40.41 - 48.29%)

A guaranteed KO after HP Fighting, but of course Pursuit has exactly the same effect in such a situation. The best use for Sucker Punch though is against Swellow. Other Sucker Punchers risk getting caught out by Quick Attack from Swellow and rendering their efforts useless, but Spiritomb is immune to it and therefore Swellow gains nothing from doing this, only stalling its own death. Even if running HP Rock, sometimes Spiritomb won’t be able to take a boosted Brave Bird, or Swellow will simply be at low enough health to be taken out:

Sucker Punch vs. 4 / 0 Swellow: 127-151 HP (48.47 - 57.63%)

If using Sucker Punch, then even if running HP Rock, Sucker Punch is the better option against Swellow. Rather than risk the possible Brave Bird crit before striking, it is better to ’gamble’ on such a possibility with Sucker Punch instead. Even if it doesn’t happen, the result is that Swellow is left at the point where it either dies to a second SP or switches out with not enough health left to come back in.

These scenarios aside, Sucker Punch earns its spot just for being Tomb’s strongest available priority, and is crucial for many tight situations.

All that is left to explain now is the EVs. The offensive EVs are balanced in such a way as to provide the best overall offensive output, as demonstrated by the various calcs, whilst leaving enough for the defensive investment required to not completely waste Spiritomb’s natural bulk and great typing. More specifically, 244 HP EVs allow Spiritomb to always survive LO Honchkrow’s Brave Bird and LO Moltres’ Fire Blast at full health, but in general the bulk is necessary for taking all manner of assaults. Finally, the 12 speed EVs are to allow Spiritomb to outrun Steelix and Slowbro despite the Quiet nature.

So that’s all I have to say. Unless you’re heavily dedicated to stall play, I strongly recommend that you give this guy a try as a lead some time. It works really well, trust me.

 

[Stagnant]

Looks good to me. The Calc's looks promising as well. I'll give it a go.

 

[A.P.]

Bloody hell, Lemmiwinks, there goes my team...

Nice set, though. From even a simple glance it holds a lot of promise.

 

[Heysup]

@ Lemmiwinks MkII

If you OHKOed my Froslass in a match with Shadow Ball I would yell "gimmick". Nice set!

Really, that's what people should be running as anti-leads, though it leaves you quite open to some of the normal leads such as Kabutops, Regirock, etc who will 2HKO you easily.

 

[MagicMaster87]

I don't think Kabutops is really that much of a problem for Spiritomb, at least if it is running HP Fighting. Since most leading Kabutops run Focus Sash, this is what Kabutops' strongest attack, Stone Edge, manages on Lemmiwinks' Spiritomb:

361 Atk vs 252 Def & 302 HP (100 Base Power): 154 - 183 (50.99% - 60.60%)

It seems like a 2HKO, but that's from Adamant Kabutops, which I would assume sees less play than Jolly now due to Gallade (they both have 80 base Speed, so Kabutops will probably want to try for the speed tie). In any case, let's look at what an HP Fighting + Sucker Punch from this Spiritomb can manage:

HP Fighting:
298 Atk vs 176 Def & 262 HP (70 Base Power): 170 - 202 (64.89% - 77.10%)
Average: 70.23%

Sucker Punch:
232 Atk vs 246 Def & 262 HP (80 Base Power): 82 - 97 (31.30% - 37.02%)
Average: 33.6%

So more times than not you will come out on top in this exchange, and that's not taking into consideration Stone Edge's low accuracy. Of course, you could say that Kabutops could simply Aqua Jet next turn, but I could also say that Spiritomb could use HP Fighting again, and so on and so forth.

I'm wondering, though, would Expert Belt be a better option than Spooky Plate? It seems like most of the leads listed here would be taking SE damage from Spiritomb's move of choice, so you would be able to give the 20% boost to more than Shadow Ball and Shadow Sneak. I don't have time to do the calcs, but Moltres would have a clean OHKO from HP Rock, and Kabutops would always be 2HKO'd from a combination of HP fighting and Sucker Punch.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Yeah, Expert Belt is an alternative option, but whilst you can hit certain other leads harder, you lose out on the power against threats like Blaziken, Donphan, other Spiritomb and, if running HP Rock, Omastar and Kabutops.

The main reason for Spooky Plate though is the fact that Shadow Ball is by far the most used move on this set, so you want to maximize its power against everything. Remember that Spiritomb isn't just there to hit leads, and lot of Pokes take neutral damage from the set at best. By going with Expert Belt you lose quite a bit of power against almost all of them. The fact that Spooky Plate boosts Shadow Sneak as well justifies its position as the preferred item.

^Also, Plate boosted neutral Shadow Ball hits slightly harder than a SE HP Fighting, so you would use Shadow Ball on Kabutops in this case. And my spread has 297 special attack, not 298.

 

[MagicMaster87]

Yeah, Expert Belt is an alternative option, but whilst you can hit certain other leads harder, you lose out on the power against threats like Blaziken, Donphan, other Spiritomb and, if running HP Rock, Omastar and Kabutops.

The main reason for Spooky Plate though is the fact that Shadow Ball is by far the most used move on this set, so you want to maximize its power against everything. Remember that Spiritomb isn't just there to hit leads, and lot of Pokes take neutral damage from the set at best. By going with Expert Belt you lose quite a bit of power against almost all of them. The fact that Spooky Plate boosts Shadow Sneak as well justifies its position as the preferred item.

^Also, Plate boosted neutral Shadow Ball hits slightly harder than a SE HP Fighting, so you would use Shadow Ball on Kabutops in this case. And my spread has 297 special attack, not 298.

Huh. I must've messed up when doing my calcs earlier, since I got that Shadow Ball did less than SE HP Fighting... Well, that just boosts my argument against Kabutops, even for HP Rock variants. In that case, Spooky Plate probably is the better item (although you still have a 91.32% chance to 2HKO 4/0 Blaziken with Expert Belt even if it doesn't take any other damage).

Also, I just plugged the numbers into shoddy and got 298 SAtk with your spread... I'm not sure why we're getting different results.

 

[Flamewheeler]

It may be a little late, but has anyone experienced the awesomeness that is slowbro/chansey combo? I've been using it, and in the right hands, it's pretty hard to break. Slowbro slows down venusaur and a bunch of other things with twave for bulkier sweepers to rape, while chansey can toxic and wear down the opponents defense. Also, using this in conjuction with "proslass" is just too good. Causing switches by walling so many things with "SloSey" or ChanBro" is just great. I have been considering shed shell on chansey though, since duggy has had a sudden spike in usage. =/

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Also, I just plugged the numbers into shoddy and got 298 SAtk with your spread... I'm not sure why we're getting different results.

Probably because you forgot to actually check Fighting in the Hidden Power box to drop the IVs.

And the idea with Blaziken is that you have a chance of 2HKOing with a combination of Shadow Ball and Shadow Sneak after any previous damage. With Expert Belt this is not possible, and having to use two Shadow Balls will give Blaziken a chance to attack you before you finish it off.

 

[Stagnant]

ScreechTank

Skuntank (M) @ BlackGlasses
Ability: Aftermath
EVs: 252 HP/252 Atk/4 Def
Adamant nature
- Pursuit
- Crunch/ Explosion
- Screech
- Sucker Punch
---

Any time I use Skuntank I use this set. It works great at forcing switches as well as simply picking Pokemon off. Black Glasses works to bluff the item as well as power up his STAB attacks. Coverage moves are a waste on him because anything he has to use is low in power or forces him to split ev's. So using this set is all about know when to fight or flee.

 

[Rolf]

Swarm Abuse

Scyther@Salac Berry
Jolly/Adamant - 244Att/252Spe/12HP
~Substitute
~Swords Dance
~Quick Attack
~X-Scissor

While Swarm/Torrent/Overgrow/Blaze sets are mostly delegated to Empoleon only, Scyther makes great use of the ability Swarm. Swarm increases the power of bug-type moves when its health is under 33%, making X-Scissor a rediculously powerful STAB attack, especially when you have a Swords Dance under your belt.

The strategy is simple - switch in on something that will switch out (Scyther does that to quite a few pokes to to its speed and (usually) STAB Technician Ariel Ace. Substitute. If they bring in something faster then you (read: not much) substitute down to Salac as they break your subs - you should then easily be able to outspeed and ko with X-Siz.

Some calcs for pokes in this scenario:

0/0 Swellow

317 Atk vs 157 Def & 261 HP (120 Base Power): 130 - 153 (49.81% - 58.62%)

4/0 Electrode

317 Atk vs 176 Def & 262 HP (120 Base Power): 232 - 274 (88.55% - 104.58%) 100% with SR

4/0 Alakazam

317 Atk vs 126 Def & 252 HP (120 Base Power): 648 - 764 (257.14% - 303.17%)

4/0 Dugtrio (On this one, you shouldn't sub down to salac so you can block Sucker Punches)

317 Atk vs 136 Def & 212 HP (80 Base Power): 201 - 237 (94.81% - 111.79%) 100% with SR

4/0 Raikou

317 Atk vs 186 Def & 322 HP (120 Base Power): 220 - 259 (68.32% - 80.43%)

On anything else, you can just Swords Dance as they break your sub and then sub down to Salac/Swarm range. At this point, the only things you won't be koing are Steelix, Registeel, Arcanine, Hitmontop (but you can QA it and stall sucker punches), Dusclops, Nidoqueen and I can't really think of much else. (well, things like AJ Azu or Bullet Punch Toxicroak)

Alternatively I guess you could run Reversal over Quick Attack and run a spread that allows you to sub down to 1HP instead, but Sucker Punchers and priority in general will beat you. With Quick Attack, you can put a dent in something before they use priority on you, which is quite handy. The main purpose is to stall out all those nasty Sucker Punchers though.

 

[Flamewheeler]

Just a nitpick; Jolly scyther has 319 attack.

 

[supermarth64]

Scyther learns Bug Bite like it's older brother Scizor, so it > X-Scissor.

 

[Sock Monster]

That's only if it's running Technician, which it's not.

 

[Rolf]

Just a nitpick; Jolly scyther has 319 attack.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if your HP is divisible by 4 then the salac will activate at exactly 25%. I was running 12 HP EVs and 244 Attack (hence two less attack points) rather than running a 30 IV in HP. Not that it makes much of a difference anyways.

And X-Siz is > Bug Bite because I'm running Swarm, not Technician.

 

[blasphemy1]

@ Generic Kingler discussion: Kingler's terrible HP let's it down. It's defense is better put to use taking random priority attacks after setting up an Agility or Swords Dance, not tanking/walling. Slowbro is far superior with its overall higher defenses, Calm Mind, Slack Off, and additional resistances.

That's a cool set Lemmiwinks MkII, I might just have to try that out.

 

[Flamewheeler]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if your HP is divisible by 4 then the salac will activate at exactly 25%. I was running 12 HP EVs and 244 Attack (hence two less attack points) rather than running a 30 IV in HP. Not that it makes much of a difference anyways.

And X-Siz is > Bug Bite because I'm running Swarm, not Technician.

Whoops, I missed the spread xD.

 

[-GZ-]

Name: "Drifting in the Rain"

Drifblim @ Sitrus Berry/Kasib Berry/Colbur Berry
Abilty: Unburden
252spA, 126HP, 126spe
Nature: Modest

-Weather Ball
-Thunder
-Calm Mind
-Shadow Ball


I've tried this set and it works quite well in the rain. With this set, under rain, Weather Ball[HG/SS] Exclusive Egg Move is brought up to a staggering 100BP Water move. Set up a calm mind under the rain and proceed to sweep.
With this EV spread, Drifblim gets 454 speed, under rain, 306 Special Attack, and 472HP, more than enough to take a special attacked based move after a calm mind.

Here are some damage calculations with calm mind. These were all calculated using the most used natures on the Smogon analysis page.

+1 Thunder On this Milotic: 278-327 Damage. This is always a 2hko.

+0 Weatherball(in rain) vs. Donphan 252HP/252spD= 277-327, always a 2HKO
+1 Weatherball(in rain) vs. Donphan 252HP/252spD=414-487, always an overkill.
+0 Weatherball vs. Moltres 252HP, 252spD= 249-262.(Nobody would ever run this set but it is always an OHKO on a normal set)

I will include more calcz later ;P.

 

[Stellar]

Damp Rock doesn't work that way. It boosts the duration of rain if it is equipped by a Pokemon using Rain Dance. It also isn't "used" in order to activate Unburden. The item has to be consumed in order to activate the ability and Damp Rock isn't.

 

[-GZ-]

Oh I see, I guess it could be replaced with Sitrus Berry or something.

 

[XenoIncognito]

I dunno.. a calm minding set seems counterproductive on a rain team. You've only got 6 turns.