Lower Tiers Doubles OU Viability Rankings

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manectric to tier 3

everyone agrees this mon is kind of ass. i actually have no idea why this is in tier 2 considering every mon in it is better than manectric. it's weak as hell and intimidate isn't a stellar ability to have on such a frail mon, especially one that's weak to earthquake. i have not seen this on a half decent team since mid xy and i think its ranking should reflect that
 
I agree with qsns

When the skymin/keld/talon hype started, I thought that mega man was like a reallyyyy cool/good call. It was pretty good but then I realized that offensive thund does exactly the same thing while having priority twave and not taking up a mega spot. Mega man is outclassed in every way possible by thund.
 

Fangame10

DOU Master of Snow-based Trick Room teams
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I already recommended manectric for tier 3 a few pages up :U. But yeah this pokemon is basically outclassed in general, not worth wasting your mega slot on something that is outclassed by non megas Thundy/Zapdos/Rotom
 

n10siT

Hoopa can do anything!
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Can we just go ahead and put a tier 2.5 above the middle description in tier 2? I know shrop already pointed it out but having a 1.5 and not a 2.5 is just nonsense

also so this post isn't just about me being a prick, I agree with qsns, and you could make a point for it being UR, there's no reason to use it over any of the higher-tiered electric types

edit: noted that i have the power to indirectly change the title to this thread
 
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Laga

Forever Grande
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honestly mega aero is a straight 2.0 in this skymin / keld / talon meta. Having a good matchup against those three, as well OHKOing Diancie / Zard and dishing serious dmg to Amoonguss / Thundurus (pair with fm or rp support cuz fuk twave) is just everything you could ask for in a HO mon.
 
Mega Garchomp to tier 1.
Mega Garchomp has a max attack of 999 483.
Mega Garchomp beats Talonflame 89.875 unless it runs focus pussy bring mega dinosaur nubs.
Mega Garchomp has stab Earthrape.
Mega Garchomp has a A LOT def of and
ATTACK! !!:/!##!!, 11
Mega Garchomp can kill beat Besharp.
Mega Garchomp has high attack.

All of these are valid for Mega Garchomp to rise Stratos u pussy


BUGEDIT: this is a bad troll post that's not even funny but I'm leaving it here cuz who doesn't enjoy a good Stratos callout?!
 

Arcticblast

Trans rights are human rights
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Your making me cry man :)
However it was never my intention. Insulting stratos for me.

Edit: Also wanted to make this place a bit more alive, seriously its way to dead to be an OFFICAL viabillty ranking thread.
This forum is way too dead for an official metagame, so the thread isn't really an anomaly
 

Audiosurfer

I'd rather be sleeping
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honestly mega aero is a straight 2.0 in this skymin / keld / talon meta. Having a good matchup against those three, as well OHKOing Diancie / Zard and dishing serious dmg to Amoonguss / Thundurus (pair with fm or rp support cuz fuk twave) is just everything you could ask for in a HO mon.
I'm nomming Mega Aerodactyl for tier 2 (the grouping with Blaziken in it) for these reasons. Also it has moves such as Sky Drop, Tailwind, Wide Guard, and Taunt and can thus be a useful disruptor/supporter while still keeping offensive presence and ripping apart many common cores. And it's among the fastest non-scarf Pokémon in the game so there's that.

Also, normal Aero should probably be in tier 3 since while it's weaker and frailer it can still deck the skymin / keld / talon core and does have the support moves to be useful on some teams.
 

Checkmater

It’s just us kittens left, and the rain is coming
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1 -> 1.5

Bulky rotomwash is pretty shit. It's incapable of facing off against loads of tier 1 mons and, in terms of offensive capabilities, is definitely outclassed by keldeo. Anything you want to burn can just be ko'ed by keldeo, excepting weird shit like scizor. While it does have a place as a solid talonflame counter, its horrible matchup vs all the grasses and its lackluster bulk for a "bulky mon" make me nom this for 1.5.

1 -> 1.5 or 1->2 or maybe even 1->3

Honestly Cresselia is so lackluster. It has horrible matchups vs a huge portion of the metagame, multiple solid mons can cripple or completely destroy it (see skymin, kang, rotomwash, aegis, heatran etc) and has huge difficulties setting up enough cms to be relevant. In many contexts, it nearly turns the battle into a 1v2, allowing the opponent to gain precious momentum. (see my second match vs pinoy) With the addition of hoopa, an extremely powerful physical dark attacker, Cresselia just falls even more. Many discussions on Cresselia's weaknesses have already taken place, and it does not deserve the title of rank 1, as statements such as "have a good matchup vs a large portion of the metagame", "are either quite powerful or offer great team support", or "can fit on almost any team" all do not apply.

1.5-> 2

Bisharp isn't very good vs trick room. It lacks the ability to ko any of the setters, and easily falls prey to post-tr status. In addition, its horrible matchups vs keldeo, rotomwash, kang, etc. allow the opponent to easily play around bisharp. While it does have a niche against intimidate, the advent of stronger choices like hoopa-u have made bisharp simply fall out of the meta. For such a squishy and low-speed mon, it also has shitty offensive stats. For example, its sucker punch hurts as much as kang's sucker punch. Like w0t. Having to win 50/50 rolls of "am I going to sucker or predict the switch" on many turns also hurts its viability.

2-> 1.5

Gardevoir-mega hits like a fucking truck. Like holy shit it fucking hurts and it hurts hard. Being able to ohko anything it's super effective against and do 60%+ against the things it hits neutrally, giving gardevoir-mega room to click hyper voice completely demolishes opposing teams. It also has great matchups vs a huge portion of the metagame such as landot, skymin, keldeo, rotomwash, diancie, hydreigon, dragons in general, fighting types in general, etc. While it does have a weakness to physical attackers such as kangaskhan and talonflame, redirection of team support easily handle these threats. Overall, in my personal experience of using this mon in multiple teams and seeing others use it in multiple teams, Gardevoir-mega deserves a 1.5 rank.

1.5->1

Talonflame is an incredibly strong mon that simply looks at your speed control and says "fuck you I have priority". Able to carry wisp, tailwind, or steel wing, this mon is incredibly versatile and part of one of the strongest offensive cores in the game. While it does have a poor matchup vs diancie and rotomwash, its ability to get on the field and just deal shitloads of high-priority damage is deadly. It also can tear apart hyper offense. Simply put, talonflame provides excellent team support while dishing out huge damage.


Also while I'm at it I think scrafty is in the wrong portion of rank 2
 
Nominating things you don't like isn't how it works. Also, of all the things up there, I think this is probably the worst:
1.5-> 2

Bisharp isn't very good vs trick room.
Just because it doesn't OHKO any setters (Gardevoir, Diancie, Aromatisse don't exist???????????????) doesn't mean everything else does. I have never seen a +0 Kangaskhan OHKO even an Aromatisse.
But if there are things I can agree on they are probably Rotom-Wash. Even at Tier 1.5 it shows it is a great Pokémon in the meta game, but it's not Tier 1 really.
 

Checkmater

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Ok the reason I think bisharp isn't good vs tr is because it's incredibly easy to lead against and/or use setters than can demolish it. People act like bisharp is a hard ct whereas it really isn't. Unless you're hellbent on building tr the same way every time it's incredibly easy to beat bisharp.

Also someone (i think stratos) posted +1 calcs of bisharp not ko'ing shitloads of top threats. Like... w0t... cmon people it does shit for damage and knockoff doesn't get 1.5x against megas.
Wake up sheeple bisharp does no damage and it's frail as fuck with shitloads of weaks.
 
Ok the reason I think bisharp isn't good vs tr is because it's incredibly easy to lead against and/or use setters than can demolish it. People act like bisharp is a hard ct whereas it really isn't. Unless you're hellbent on building tr the same way every time it's incredibly easy to beat bisharp.
You couldn't have been more wrong. If Cresselia is bad enough to go to Tier 3, as you say, Bisharp literally OHKOs almost every Trick Room setter. That being said, there are only a few ways you can accurately counterlead Bisharp, and of course one of those ways is by leading a Fake Out user/Talonflame. But does the Fake Out user get to Fake Out Skymin, Mega Metagross, Heatran, or Mega Kangaskhan? Or will they just sack their Trick Room setter to Bisharp Iron Head/Knock Off? Also under Trick Room, a few things I've noticed you use quite often which I will use in this situation are Abomasnow and Reuniclus. Reuniclus actually dies to a Sucker Punch (proof: 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Reuniclus: 460-541 (108.4 - 127.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO) and Abomasnow can't do shit to Bisharp lol. Note that Bisharp also does surprising amounts of damage with Sucker Punch, and just straight OHKOs with Iron Head.

Also the Fake Out setter you mentioned moving up, Scrafty, happens to have Intimidate. That being said, if in the situation in which I described earlier where your best counter leads are either Talonflame or Fake Out, Scrafty is a popular choice for a Trick Room team due to those two qualities of Intimidate and Fake Out.
Edit: There's also Heatran which I forgot but that doesn't stop a fast Bisharp (tfw that's the only Bisharp set there is) from getting a straight KO on the Trick Room setter. Do not reply with "but the Trick Room setter can Protect!!1!1!" as the Bisharp user can make a prediction just as easily.
 

Checkmater

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You couldn't have been more wrong. If Cresselia is bad enough to go to Tier 3, as you say, Bisharp literally OHKOs almost every Trick Room setter. That being said, there are only a few ways you can accurately counterlead Bisharp, and of course one of those ways is by leading a Fake Out user/Talonflame. But does the Fake Out user get to Fake Out Skymin, Mega Metagross, Heatran, or Mega Kangaskhan? Or will they just sack their Trick Room setter to Bisharp Iron Head/Knock Off? Also under Trick Room, a few things I've noticed you use quite often which I will use in this situation are Abomasnow and Reuniclus. Reuniclus actually dies to a Sucker Punch (proof: 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Reuniclus: 460-541 (108.4 - 127.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO) and Abomasnow can't do shit to Bisharp lol. Note that Bisharp also does surprising amounts of damage with Sucker Punch, and just straight OHKOs with Iron Head.

Also the Fake Out setter you mentioned moving up, Scrafty, happens to have Intimidate. That being said, if in the situation in which I described earlier where your best counter leads are either Talonflame or Fake Out, Scrafty is a popular choice for a Trick Room team due to those two qualities of Intimidate and Fake Out.
Edit: There's also Heatran which I forgot but that doesn't stop a fast Bisharp (tfw that's the only Bisharp set there is) from getting a straight KO on the Trick Room setter. Do not reply with "but the Trick Room setter can Protect!!1!1!" as the Bisharp user can make a prediction just as easily.
sigh editing out harsh comment second time this week

scrafty isn't the only fake out* user and it can also ohko bisharp anyways
kang exists
if you lead heatran lol goodbye bisharp
things like colbur berry or sash also exist
don't forget amoonguss
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
sigh editing out harsh comment second time this week

scrafty isn't the only fake out* user and it can also ohko bisharp anyways
kang exists
if you lead heatran lol goodbye bisharp
things like colbur berry or sash also exist
don't forget amoonguss
ok well there are exactly 2 fake out users which are viable on Trick Room, and those are Scrafty and Kangaskhan. So unless your mega is Kangaskhan, your advice of "just fake it out" is just empty words. I'd suspect that you are the one who is hell bent on building TR the same way every time if you're always able to Fake Out Bisharp (and as someone who's built TR teams with Camerupt, Abomasnow, Metagross, Scizor, and Mawile, I know a little about building TR).

Just use bisharp-resistant setters? What the fuck are those? The setter with the best matchup against Bisharp is Porygon2 which is really embarrassing when you consider how bad Porygon2's bisharp matchup is. Colbur Berry and Sash exist but if you're running a resist berry to beat bisharp you are kind of admitting that your bisharp matchup isn't that hot.

TR's problems are further exacerbated by the fact that it has less options for checking Kangaskhan than most other team styles so it's more or less forced to run intimidate. Even your team has a pretty bad bisharp matchup and the fact that you dont consider bisharp a threat tells me youve never faced a good bisharp with it. Of course bisharp can't just 6-0 all TR teams by itself but to say that it's not a great tool against TR is hilarious.

p.s. if you say "bisharp relies on 50/50s" that just proves you dont understand how to play not just bisharp, but doubles as a whole, which is all about putting pressure on your opponent and reducing their options until they're forced into a move which you can exploit.
 

Checkmater

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Like I phrased it badly, admittedly. Bisharp definitely threatens trick room, but every mon on a ho team should. But it's not the autowin or even the hard ct that many people put it out to be.

Also I guess if I'm running colbur that is recognizing bisharp is a threat, but it's also for hoopa-u.

But still, everytime I see it it fails to perform very well, especially in non-tr matchups.

Maybe it's just the way I build or the way my opp's play or just me getting luckynbad.
 
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moods

Banned deucer.
or are only particularly useful for checking a certain team style. - part of the definition of tier 2.
there is so viable setter that is not weak to bisharp. there is no one mon that can beat trick room on its own, thats a fact. the is no "hard CT"
i dont see a reason why we should continue
 
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