Anything else?
I mean Celebi does get Leaf Storm...
Is the standard Shaymin supporter, sweeper, what? [I swear I've barely seen any Shaymins]
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New OU List (September 2010)
- Thread starter RBG
- Start date
I mean Celebi does get Leaf Storm...
Is the standard Shaymin supporter, sweeper, what? [I swear I've barely seen any Shaymins]
It's OU solely through usage. If you're unhappy with any tiering changes, blame yourself and your peers for not using Hera enough or using Umbreon too much. BL is only for UU-tiered pokes who were voted there.
Seed Flare is an absolutely amazing move and better than Leaf Storm, IMO. Aside from that, everything Shaymin does can also be done by Celebi. It's worth noting that Shaymin isn't Pursuit-weak, though.
Likely because it can pull off a nasty little sweeper set, and can just abuse Natural Cure. Also, Seed Flare's proc devastates anything coming in, even if it's quad resisted, as you can be -sure- that Shaymin also carries Earth Power and at least a Hidden Power, though likely Fire and Ice. I would say Seed Flare alone is a good contributor to Shaymin's bump in usage.
Don't really care about Heracross being UU (cause frankly, it's not good enough in OU for me to use it), but I certainly do blame my peers for using Umbreon too much. The thing sucks!! :P
Point was that Umbreon's ability in UU has no relevance to its OU status.
Super Mario Bro
All we ever look for
Umbreon doesn't suck. At all.
It totally does . . .
If you are 1hko'd by U-Turn and you cannot 2hko Scizor, you are not a UU pokemon (or you are extremely shitty and low-ranked). Capacity to handle Scizor and its U-Turn has huge relevance on a pokemon's viability.
The ability to stand up to Scizor's Pursuit and Bullet Punch also have serious influence on whether an offensive pokemon is viable in OU.
What the hell do you mean by Scizor is not centralizing? In the article SDS and I are writing about influential weaknesses, Scizor is written about in 3 different sections describing its centralizing effects, making certain pokemon viable and others not.
If you are 1hko'd by U-Turn and you cannot 2hko Scizor, you are not a UU pokemon (or you are extremely shitty and low-ranked). Capacity to handle Scizor and its U-Turn has huge relevance on a pokemon's viability.
The ability to stand up to Scizor's Pursuit and Bullet Punch also have serious influence on whether an offensive pokemon is viable in OU.
Shaymin is my homie.
All kidding aside-Heracross in UU is so horribly broken, it's awesome.
All kidding aside-Heracross in UU is so horribly broken, it's awesome.
I was actually thinking earlier that Aggron + Heracross on the same team would destroy teams. But then again I don't play UU much.
Of course Heracross is too powerful for UU. If Gallade was too powerful, of course Hera is. Hera is bulkier overall, only very slightly less powerful, and faster with better offensive and defensive typing. It loses on Gallades massive number of options, but more than makes up for it with the sheer number of ways it it can raise its eye popping killing power. It will certainly make its way to BL.
And really, I use Hera in OU. It is exceptionally useful when I need a fighting type that also resists ground and fighting.
And really, I use Hera in OU. It is exceptionally useful when I need a fighting type that also resists ground and fighting.
For the record, I agree that Electivire and Umbreon were crap even with a Motor Drive boost and a few Curses respectively. Gliscor/Swampert say hi, and Lucario Swords Dances in your face. But Dusknoir is good, try using your defensive oven against Tyranitar or Blissey. And Ninjask is on nearly all Baton Pass Teams, good luck with finding a better speed passer. If only it had Taunt...
Who in the world is saying that? =/
Umbreon was such a great stall member in UU and ever since it's been gone, stall has been pretty much nonexistant. (Although it did die out mostly because it was the best playstyle for handling Raikou)
Super Mario Bro
All we ever look for
No. Its Curse and Mean Look Baton Pass sets are actually pretty good.
I built a team around Curse, Payback, Rest, Sleep Talk Umbreon, and it was VERY good actually. Umbreon is an excellent Starmie/Gengar counter.
I like Calm Mind RestTalk Spiritomb more than Curse Umbreon, but it does not mean that Umbreon sucks.
Umbreon has no means of doing anything to setup sweepers like Machamp, Lucario, Scizor, Empoleon and others who can simply go to setup and sweep. Furthermore Skarmory and bulky SR users set up on it at will and just PHaze it harmlessly away. There are ways of getting around gengar and starmie (who still have means of screwing over Umbreon anyway, and have no real fear in simply switching out) without exposing one to such potent threats.
Also Dusknoir is ok, but Rotom-H > Dusknoir x infinity.
Also Dusknoir is ok, but Rotom-H > Dusknoir x infinity.
Super Mario Bro
All we ever look for
That's what you have 5 other team members for. :) Skarmory is handled by Magnezone, Machamp/Scizor are handled by RestTalk Reflect Rotom, and the rest of the Pokemon you mentioned can be revenge killed or handled by a simple switch.
Umbreon does have a niche in OU, but Dusknoir and Electivire don't.
You are not understanding the problem, which is this:
Umbreon does NOTHING to stop a number (ie, you opponent probably doesn't have 1, but several pokemon who can setup/are truly unafraid of umbreon) of truly threatening pokemon from switching in on it at will. Meanwhile, said truly threatening pokemon can still bash the crap out of their "counters." Even if you switch Magnezone into Forry/Skarm, they already got up Spikes/Rocks, and might be packing Shed Shell on top of it.
Having a Rotom is no help when Machamp is completely free to setup Substitutes on Umbreon (which will let it bash Rotom with Payback), and Scizor will be bashing Rotom in the face with U-Turn before switching out anyway. Even if Machamp didn't have substitute, Umbreon is so unthreatening, it could afford to go for Payback on the prediction!
The point is that even if Umbreon can force out certain pokemon, it does nothing to threaten other enemy team mates, many of whom are fully capable of setting up on Umbreon without fear, and doing some serious shit to whatever checks you might be packing for them.
Umbreon does NOTHING to stop a number (ie, you opponent probably doesn't have 1, but several pokemon who can setup/are truly unafraid of umbreon) of truly threatening pokemon from switching in on it at will. Meanwhile, said truly threatening pokemon can still bash the crap out of their "counters." Even if you switch Magnezone into Forry/Skarm, they already got up Spikes/Rocks, and might be packing Shed Shell on top of it.
Having a Rotom is no help when Machamp is completely free to setup Substitutes on Umbreon (which will let it bash Rotom with Payback), and Scizor will be bashing Rotom in the face with U-Turn before switching out anyway. Even if Machamp didn't have substitute, Umbreon is so unthreatening, it could afford to go for Payback on the prediction!
The point is that even if Umbreon can force out certain pokemon, it does nothing to threaten other enemy team mates, many of whom are fully capable of setting up on Umbreon without fear, and doing some serious shit to whatever checks you might be packing for them.
This.
Well, maybe not Weavile. I've used him as an anti-lead, and it's only really beaten by Machamp. And that's because my luck with confusion is absolutely horrible.
Pretty much exactly why Umbreon sucks.
In Weavile's case, I think we have to acknowledge that it didn't . . . start sucky.
It was actually pretty good, when Scizor was a 30~ level popularity OU with a few avid fans trying to convince people how good Quick Attack was (no superpower, and no one truly appreciating the awesomeness that is U-Turn yet), Jirachi was never physical or offensive (ie, it used Psychic for STAB), and Garchomp was everywhere.
It was actually pretty good, when Scizor was a 30~ level popularity OU with a few avid fans trying to convince people how good Quick Attack was (no superpower, and no one truly appreciating the awesomeness that is U-Turn yet), Jirachi was never physical or offensive (ie, it used Psychic for STAB), and Garchomp was everywhere.
In tiering, pokemon are placed based on usage and their overall influence on the metagame. Better pokemon influence it more, and pokemon that aren't as powerful will influence it less. Example: Scizor and Tyranitar heavily influence the metagame, and Weavile and Electivire pretty much don't influence it at all.
If a pokemon is too powerful in said tier, it is banned. Thus BL and Uber. Examples and Garchomp in OU, and Gallade in UU. This leaves gaps for other previously undermined pokemon to fill said gaps and make a leap. This example is Shaymin filling the gap that Salamence left behind, which is why it is now made OU. Heracross has been scrapping the bottom of OU for so long it's not even funny; and that's because the majority of users do not use him. You can still use him in OU, it's just been officially declared that he is unpopular enough to hit UU (And eventually BL, most likely).
A pokemon's usefulness is gauged by its effect on the metagame and how is able to counter it, not how high or low it is on whatever tier. Probably stuff that's common sense, but who knows.
If a pokemon is too powerful in said tier, it is banned. Thus BL and Uber. Examples and Garchomp in OU, and Gallade in UU. This leaves gaps for other previously undermined pokemon to fill said gaps and make a leap. This example is Shaymin filling the gap that Salamence left behind, which is why it is now made OU. Heracross has been scrapping the bottom of OU for so long it's not even funny; and that's because the majority of users do not use him. You can still use him in OU, it's just been officially declared that he is unpopular enough to hit UU (And eventually BL, most likely).
A pokemon's usefulness is gauged by its effect on the metagame and how is able to counter it, not how high or low it is on whatever tier. Probably stuff that's common sense, but who knows.
However, you can be a top pokemon without influencing the viability of other pokemon (not centralizing) much. For instance, I doubt any pokemon have fallen to UU because of Flygon or Vaporeon (except maybe slowbro and milotic who it outclasses), but they are inarguably top class pokemon.
Naw, I just don't want them in OU. They would fuck shit up in NU. But nonetheless, the still don't deserve OU status.
Gengar can't do either and it's been consistently top OU for all of D/P. Scizor's Pursuit isn't all that scary when it's slower than the universe and allows room for setup and recovery.
Scizor has made a notable impact on the metagame, but centralizing is a strong term to describe what it does. I don't have to think about countering it before I build my team and I don't have any trouble doing so afterward. It may have forced certain Pokemon to adjust to its presence, like the aforementioned Gengar, but not in any significant way that hinders their functionality.