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DPP OU New threats call for a new kind of stall - a suspect RMT

Discussion in 'RMT Archive' started by tab, May 22, 2009.

  1. tab

    tab ʕ•͡ᴥ•ʔ
    is a Community Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

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    Introduction and team building process:

    For those of you who haven't been playing on the suspect ladder much, this may seem like a strange team. It's based on stall, yet half of the team consists of stereotypically offensive pokemon. One of the interesting things about the suspect ladder, and the current centralisation around the suspects themselves, is that SkarmBliss has suddenly returned in full force to wall a huge portion of the metagame, not least of which being all but one of the common suspect sets, and as such can form a solid defensive core with very little support. The rest of the team, while unconventional, was designed to counter the prominent threats in the suspect metagame, as well as adding a reasonable amount of offensive punch to the team for when it's needed.

    After getting off to a shaky start on the suspect ladder - I'm primarily a bulky offensive player, and I absolutely hated the reliance on speed ties cause by the hype surrounding Deoxys - me and a lot of other players realised stall, which had previously been dismissed as useless against the suspects, was the way to go. The abundance of scarfers, as well as the general frailty of the metagame means most teams have forgotten about, and generally weakened themselves against stall.
    As I mentioned previously, I've played bulky offense for almost the entirety of my (admittedly short) DPP career. As such, I'm pretty inexperienced at both building and using stall teams.

    The initial idea for the team came during a brainstorming session in #Stark, where it was realised that specially defensive skarmory walls 3-4 of the suspects alone, while still being useful against other threats. The next obvious addition to the team was Blissey to wall what Skarmory can't.
    Then, I knew from my previous OU team, and my original offensive suspect team that uber trapper Scizor is incredibly useful, especially in the suspect metagame, at taking out threats, as well as resisting a large number of the key attacks in the metagame and being suprisingly durable.
    At this point, my team was in obvious need of a physical wall - specially defensive Skarmory, while amazing as a counter-metagame pokemon, sacrifices a lot of physical bulk. Originally, I went with a Hippowdon, but I found it to be rather underwhelming in the suspect metagame, so I decided to go with a RestTalk Gyarados, which has the added benefit of saving me against SD Lucario and being a decent Choiced Garchomp check.
    Seeing as I had replaced Hippowdon, I needed a Stealth Rock user, as well as something to help out Gyarados when needed, while still being able to survive against special attacks if needed. Garchomp may be an unusual choice for the role, but it's often-overlooked defenses are suprisingly good - overall, it's better than Swampert! Garchomp also has the added benefit of being able to hit incredibly hard - the Dragon/Ground attacking combination has only got better in the suspect metagame, and has the ability to force switches with ease to build up residual damage quickly.
    Finally, I decided that my team covered the threats of the suspect metagame well enough that adding another wall such as hippowdon would be a waste of a team member, so I went with Deoxys. Deoxys' late game sweeper set is suprisingly effective on stall teams - it has the ability to revenge kill most threats rather than resorting to taking a lot of damage on a wall to force them out, and once Stealth Rock and Spikes have taken their toll on the opposing team, there's not much that can stop it from winning you the game.

    Usually, the stall teams I have tried have been anything but successful - the best I ever managed was ~1300 CRE on a second account, but this team has proved to be extremely effective, getting two of my accounts into the top 20 of the suspect ladder, beating and overtaking several players who are unquestionably better than me. Since I came up with the current form of this team, I've managed a 70-80% win ratio, which is proof of how well it fares against the suspect metagame.

    And so, without further ado:

    Team at a glance:
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]


    In-depth:

    [​IMG]
    Scizor (M) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Technician
    EVs: 240 HP/56 Atk/212 SDef
    Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Bullet Punch
    - Pursuit
    - U-turn
    - Roost

    Ubers trapper Scizor seems to be one of those sets that everybody has forgotten about. While the set was designed for uber use, it's incredibly useful in both the suspect and standard OU metagames. Between Bullet Punch and Pursuit, Scizor can trap a huge number of the prominent threats, not least Latios, Latias and Skymin, while being bulky enough to withstand anything they can throw at him except for a Latios Surf/Thunderbolt, or the rare HP Fire. U-turn also gives me the ability to scout the opponents team, force switches, and build up residual damage more quickly. Roost is more or less a necessity on the set, otherwise Scizor goes down way too quickly to be of any used compared to a CB Scizor, and is more or less outclassed by Metagross.

    Scizor is notable for beating non-Fire Punch/HP Fire Deoxys with ease through Pursuit+Bullet Punch if they don't switch. Variants with a fire attack can be easily played around, especially if they run a Life Orb, then KOed with Bullet Punch once they get low.

    The EVs are designed to give Scizor enough special bulk to survive what it needs to reliably, Specs Latios in particular, with the remaining EVs providing a small increase in damage.

    [​IMG]
    Garchomp
    (M) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Sand Veil
    EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
    Jolly nature (+Spe, -SAtk)
    - Earthquake
    - Dragon Claw
    - Stealth Rock
    - Toxic

    Garchomp is possibly the most unconventional member of my team, although he really is suprisingly effective in suspect stall teams. Garchomp's Attack and Speed often overshadow his great defenses and typing, which let him switch in on a huge number of common attacks in the suspect metagame and cause an immediate threat with his great STAB coming from a huge attack stat. Despite lacking any recovery apart from Leftovers, Garchomp almost always sticks around for as long as I need him to, and plays more or less like a Swampert, but sacrificing some of the defense to cause an immediate threat and force as many switches as possible.

    Earthquake and Dragon Claw are self-explanatory - Dragon/Ground STAB is even better in the suspect metagame than in OU, and Garchomp can quite easily dismantle the fast, frail offensive teams with them. Stealth Rock is taken on Garchomp due to it both not fitting anywhere else, and Garchomps huge threat means it can easily force a switch to get rocks down easily. Toxic is by far the least important of his moves - there's only been a handful of times that I've found it useful, for the moment it's there as a filler more than anything else.

    Max Speed lets Garchomp revenge kill everything up to neutral natured base 100s (Manaphy in particular) when needed. It's preferred over a small amount of increased bulk here in order to make revenge killing less of a gamble.

    [​IMG]
    Gyarados (M) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 252 HP/4 Spe/252 Def
    Impish nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Rest
    - Roar
    - Sleep Talk
    - Waterfall

    RestTalk Gyarados, you all know how it works by now. This thing has been a staple on Platinum stall teams since it was first invented, and it's just as useful in the suspect metagame. Intimidate on something as bulky as this is incredibly useful, Gyarados can easily come in and shrug off even an Outrage from the standard Garchomp. Rest and Sleep Talk give Gyarados the survivability it needs to repeatedly switch in and counter a threat, while Roar phazes anything that may try to set up on me, as well as wracking up residual damage incredibly quickly once Stealth Rock and a couple of layers of Spikes have been put down. Waterfall is there for the obligatory damage move, and retains enough power to either take out or put a dent in several threats such as mixed Infernape, who otherwise wrecks the team.

    The EVs are obvious - maximum physical bulk so that Gyarados can do what it needs to do.

    [​IMG]
    Skarmory (M) @ Shed Shell
    Ability: Keen Eye
    EVs: 252 HP/4 Def/252 SDef
    Careful nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Brave Bird
    - Roost
    - Spikes
    - Whirlwind

    Specially defensive Skarmory is pretty much the definition of an anti-metagame pokemon. Skarmory beats every Skymin apart from the rare HP Fire version (which loses to Blissey) easily, can come in and sponge a Latios Draco Meteor if needed, as well as almost anything from a Latias, and can take everything except a Fire Fang from Garchomp (as almost every Garchomp is Choiced, this is practically an invitation for Gyarados to come in and Roar up some residual damage). Skarmory can also beat Deoxys if needed, as long as I'm at a reasonable health level when it comes in, taking 75% or so from Thunderbolt and Brave Birding back. However, Scizor is usually the better option for dealing with Deoxys.

    Brave Bird is given the nod over Drill Peck for the added power, and Whirlwind gives me a second source of phazing for when Gyarados can't manage it. Spikes in combination with Garchomp's Stealth Rock racks up residual damage incredibly quickly, and minimises the amount of times that I'm forced to counter a threat. Roost is obvious - it keeps Skarmory alive.
    Shed Shell is run over Leftovers as a precaution - although I haven't seen a single Magnezone since I started using this team (irritatingly enough, when I was running an offensive team at the start of the test, they were constantly popping up to take out my Heatran/Scizor), I'd rather play it safe and have the ability to switch out of any that do show up, as it's only a matter of time before more people start using Magnezone+two other steels+2-3 dragons(+Deoxys).

    The EVs and nature are chosen to maximise Skarmorys special bulk, which is necesarry as most of his effectiveness is due to resistances rather than great stats for a special wall. Even with 4 Defense EVs and a neutral natural, Skarmory handles plenty of physical threats well, so it's not a case of sacrificing his effectiveness for an anti-metagame gimmick.

    [​IMG]
    Blissey (F) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 Def/4 SAtk/252 SDef
    Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Toxic
    - Seismic Toss
    - Ice Beam
    - Softboiled

    You all knew this was coming. Blissey is a staple on almost every stall team, and with good reason. Blissey handles the special threats that Skarmory can't (Latios when I'm not predicting a Meteor, Heatran, some variants of Manaphy), and is obviously great at forcing switches to build up residual damage. Toxic cripples a huge amount of would-be threats, while Seismic Toss and Ice Beam either help with the residual damage, or hit threats like Skymin and Garchomp on the switch in respectively. Softboiled and Seismic Toss were chosen over Wish and Protect, as the fast pace of the suspect metagame often left me wishing I wasn't forced to either play it safe and Protect, hoping that the threat that just switched in doesn't take its chance to set up on me, or switch out before I got the healing, which often left Blissey at dangerously low health. Recently. I've considered going back to Wish and Protect, although I'm pretty neutral about which is better.

    The EVs are pretty simple, max Defense gives Blissey the ability to take some neutral physical hits when needed. Max Special Defense is probably unnecesarry, but I chose to play it safe with the huge number of special threats at the moment. The 4 remaining EVs were allocated to Special Attack to do as much damage as possible to Garchomp/Skymin when needed.

    Lately, I've been using Flamethrower over Ice Beam, which is useful for taking out Scizor switch ins, which tend to be fairly easy to predict, as well as doing a good 70% or so to any Forretress that tries to set up on me. Flamethrower still hits every Skymin set apart from SubSeed hard enough, although Ice Beam has the definate advantage of OHKOing then as they try to Seed me.


    [​IMG]
    Rotom-H @ Leftovers
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP/128 Def/128 SDef
    Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Thunderbolt
    - Will-o-Wisp
    - Sleep Talk
    - Rest

    Rotom is my replacement for Deoxys. Previously, one of the big weaknesses of this team was against other stall teams, which were free to Rapid Spin my Stealth Rocks and Spikes, making it extremely difficult to beat them. Rotom serves as my teams spin blocker, as well as making a good physical wall to take some pressure from Gyarados and crippling dangerous pokemon such as Garchomp with Will-o-Wisp. Thunderbolt is taken over Shadow Ball to help deal with Gyarados. Rest and Sleep Talk are self-explanatory, they allow Rotom to recover lost health and avoid being setup fodder while doing so. Rotom is also useful for forcing switches through the threat of Will-O-Wisp, which helps build up residual damage more quickly.

    Max HP is necesarry for Rotom to wall properly, and the remaining EVs are split between both defenses, with the focus being on Defense.


    Replaced members:

    [​IMG]
    Deoxys-e @ Expert Belt
    Ability: Pressure
    EVs: 100 Atk/252 Spd/158 SAtk
    Naive nature (+Spd, -SDef)
    - Ice Beam
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Superpower

    Yeah, I couldn't find a Deoxys-e sprite, so that's going to have to do. Deoxys is the star of the show, both for this team, and the suspect metagame as a whole. The late-game sweeper set is incredibly effective, the methods of beating it are pretty much limited to having an overly specialised scarfer such as Skymin or Latios (which are easy to deal with for the rest of my team, so no worries there), a CB Scizor that's managed to stay alive until endgame, or another Deoxys with Shadow Ball, although Scizor loses unless I've already lost a decent amount of health.

    Ice Beam and Thunderbolt are obvious choices, giving great coverage and hitting super effective to take out most of the significant lategame threats. Superpower takes out Magnezone, Heatran, weakened Blissey, and anything else that can take one of the other attacks. HP Fire was chosen over Shadow Ball for several reasons. Firstly, hoping that Scizor, who is easily the most common Deoxys counter, is going to be at low enough health for a Thunderbolt KO didn't really suit me, and I lost too many games due to not being able to take out a Scizor. Also, I've always detested the idea of risking everything on a Deoxys speed tie at the end of the game, and would rather use a less risky way of dealing with opposing sweeper Deoxys, namely Scizor, whose Bullet Punch should deal with due to the residual damage they've taken. Also, running a stall team designed to have a good win rate in the current metagame, and then risking everything on a coinflip seems somewhat nonsensical to me.
    Expert Belt is taken over Life Orb so that Deoxys can come in earlier in the game if needed to revenge kill/force some switches/do some wallbreaking, and so that Scizor can't wait for a few turns of recoil to build up then KO me.

    Deoxys has been replaced by Rotom due to it having been deemed uber and banned.


    So there you have it. This team is fairly typical of the few stall teams that I've seen on the suspect ladder so far that have actually been somewhat successful, and it really goes to show that sometimes unusual choices can be more effective than the tried and tested formula that is Obi's stall team modified for the meta. However, the team is still far from perfect. In particular, I struggle against opposing stall teams, especially those with Toxic Spikes. The lack of a Rapid Spinner, which I don't consider to be worth using until more people start using stall, means that opposing stall teams, especially those with a Spinner, beat me fairly easily. Fortunately, those are still rare enough that the team accomplishes its intended goal of countering the metagame.
    The other weakness of the team is against last pokemon RestTalk+Curse users, against which I have no real defense, seeing as I don't run Perish Song.

    Anyway, rate, suggest changes and improvements, or point out weaknesses I've either overlooked or haven't come across yet. Thanks in advance.

    Also, as I've had quite a few people asking me, the team can be downloaded here if you want to try it out.

    PS - Caelum is awesome for actually bothering to find sprites for me.
  2. tab

    tab ʕ•͡ᴥ•ʔ
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    Offensive and defensive threat list


    Given how centralised around the suspects the metagame is, I'll start with them.
    • Deoxys - Pretty much the biggest and most common threat in the suspect metagame. Lead Deoxys is pretty easy to deal with, and I can usually prevent the dual screen reciever from doing much if I'm against a DS lead. Late game Deoxys is difficult to deal with as it is for any team, but residual damage + Scizor usually lets me win. Skarmory and Blissey can survive Thunderbolt/Superpower respectively as long as they have 80% or so left and do some damage if needed.
    • Latios - Latios is somewhat manageable, or atleast as manageable as Latios gets. Scizor can Pursuit for the KO against non-HP Fire versions if needed, Blissey walls all sets except Trick Specs and DD Latios easily.
    • Shaymin-s - I've got three pokemon that can handle Skymin in Scizor, Skarmory and Blissey, as well as being able to kill non-scarf Skymin with Deoxys. Scarf sets are usually a joke to deal with, but the irritating thing about Skymin is how it reduces what would be a reliable counter to luck.
    • Garchomp - Scarf Chomp is easy to deal with through Skarmory and Gyarados, SD Chomp and Sub SD Chomp usually get phazed before they can do anything much, CB Chomp could potentiall cause problems if I predict badly, but it's fortunately rare for now.
    • Manaphy - Most sets are easy enough to deal with. The stall breaking set with 101HP subs can be a huge problem to deal with, but as long as I get enough damage on it, it manages to get one kill at most usually.
    • Latias - Latias is pretty much unused, and is fairly easy to deal with. The only set that isn't an inferior Latios is the defensive Calm Mind, which loses to Scizor without Reflect or HP Fire, and loses to Blissey without Refresh.
    And the rest of the OU tier with any particularly problematic non-OU pokemon I've found:
    • Aerodactyl - Easy. Lead Aero loses to Scizor, CB Aero is walled easily. I don't think I've seen a single one of these yet.
    • Azelf - Again, Azelf is incredibly rare now, it's been ditched for Deoxys and Metagross. Against the lead, I'll have to switch out rather than risking Flamethrower/Fire Blast, so I'll go to whatever I feel will be the most useful. Blissey walls the rest of the sets, I just have to watch out for Explosion.
    • Blissey - This means I'm against another stall team, which isn't good. We usually just end up stalling eachother out.
    • Breloom - Almost totally unused on the suspect ladder. Gyarados can deal with it pretty easily.
    • Bronzong - Another of the current anti-metagame pokemon. It's pretty annoying to deal with, but Scizor can get it low with U-turn, and its Explosion isn't strong enough to do much, as long as I predict when it's coming, which is usually doable.
    • Celebi - Completely non-existent on the suspect ladder. Scizor has a field day with non-HP Fire versions, and most other types should be OK to deal with.
    • Cresellia - Again, extremely rare. Anything except RestTalk loses to Toxic, against RestTalk I'd probably have to resort to boring stall wars.
    • Dragonite - Not used at all. Mixed Dragonite can be played around, DDNite loses to Deoxys.
    • Dugtrio - Again, not used. Obviously, if I get my Blissey caught by one then it's far from an ideal situation, but other than that, Dugtrio is a joke.
    • Dusknoir - As easy to deal with as it is rare. Toxic destroys them.
    • Electivire - Can't really come close to threatening me, and it's completely unused.
    • Empoleon - SubPetaya Empoleon loses to Blissey, and is killed by Deoxys unless it has two Agilities, the rest are no problem.
    • Flygon - Completely forgotten due to Garchomp. The only set that's worth using instead of Garchomp now is Scarf due to U-turn, which I can deal with easily.
    • Forretress - Forretress is annoying. Spikes and Rapid Spin are pretty much the two biggest problem moves for this team, so it's pretty much a case of wear down Forretress as much as possible, as soon as possible, then set up Spikes and Stealth Rock once it's gone.
    • Gengar - Extremely rare, and easy to deal with for the most part. McGar is the only set that can threaten Blissey, and that loses to Scizor unless it has HP Fire. Deoxys outspeeds everything except ScarfGar, which is easy to deal with.
    • Gliscor - Again, very rare. Baton Passing boosts would be annoying to deal with should I go against it, but phazing properly should mean I can handle it.
    • Gyarados - DDGyara with Stone Edge gets phazed by Skarmory, without Stone Edge, my own Gyarados beats it. Deoxys kills them regardless.
    • Heatran - Blissey, Garchomp and Gyarados can all deal with Heatran, and the latter two force it out. I have to watch out for Explosion on Blissey, but Heatran is pretty easy to deal with.
    • Heracross - It's strange how many forgotten threats are coming back during the stage 3 test. Heracross is starting to see a decent amount of use again, but can be dealt with by this team reasonably well through residual damage and switching in Garchomp, Gyarados and Skarmory as needed.
    • Hippowdon - Rare, and Toxic bait.
    • Infernape - MixAple gives me problems, but unless it has HP Electric, Gyarados can beat it. If it does, play around it and build up residual damage, or just scare it off or kill it with Deoxys.
    • Jirachi - Scarf can be sort of annoying, as can mixed. I can usually play around it without too many problems.
    • Jolteon - Easy to deal with, Blissey walls Jolteon all day long.
    • Kingdra - Rain teams like Banned Deucer was using at the start of the test are incredible, and Kingdra is obviously the biggest threat on them (along with Manaphy now). It's possible to deal with mixed and Dragon Dance sets with Gyarados, purely special attacking sets are walled by Blissey.
    • Lucario - Gyarados is s good a Lucario counter as you're going to get.
    • Machamp - Difficult to deal with, but fortunately rare. Once I get off an Intimidate with Gyarados, it can be dealt with reasonably well.
    • Magnezone - Again, rare for now, which is somewhat suprising given the dragon/steel centralisation. All it can do against this team is take out Scizor, which is annoying, but can be dealt with.
    • Mamoswine - Skarmory and Gyarados wall Mamoswine easily between them.
    • Metagross - Skarmory and Gyarados wall Metagross easily. Garchomp can take them out with Earthquake.
    • Moltres - Moltres gets special mention despite being UU, due to being incredibly annoying. Fortunately, I've only seen it once, but the Sub+Roost set is hard to deal with, although I can Seismic Toss it until it's forced to go a turn without a Sub with Blissey, and then Toxic it.
    • Ninjask - Lead Ninjask loses to Scizor. Phaze any other type.
    • Porygon-Z - Easy to deal with, Blissey walls everything except the incredibly rare mixed set, plus nobody uses Porygon-Z, especially on the suspect ladder.
    • Rotom formes - Hard to take out the RestTalk set, and quite often I've been forced to stall them out of PP (I think I've had to do it twice against Earthworm :<). Pretty much the worst part of a stall team to deal with, especially as Deoxys doesn't have Shadow Ball. Scizor can Pursuit non-Will-o-Wisp versions. Scarf Rotom loses to the residual damage, Toxic in particular.
    • Rhyperior - Extremely rare, the one I've been against was easy to deal with. Scizor, Deoxys, Garchomp and Skarmory can all either force it out of do significant damage to it.
    • Salamence - Until people realise that having a powerful wallbreaker is just as important on the suspect ladder, Salamence is actually going unused for one. MixMence will obviously be hard to deal with should I go against one, but I can play around it like any stall team does. DDMence is revenge killed easily by Deoxys.
    • Scizor - Skarmory and Gyarados wall it easily, it can't keep coming in with the entry hazards. Should one survive to endgame, Deoxys beats it unless its on low health.
    • Skarmory - Again, annoying to deal with, especailly as this usually means I'm against another stall team.
    • Snorlax - Curselax gives me huge problems, the other sets are fairly easy to deal with.
    • Starmie - Starmie goes down pretty quickly, especially the Recoverless sets. Deoxys can kill if needed.
    • Suicune - Crocune is annoying, but also extremely rare due to Skymin. Could potentially cause lategame problems and force me to resort to PP stalling.
    • Swampert - Most sets are easy to deal with, the Curse set beats me if it's saved for endgame though.
    • Tentacruel - Goes down to the residual damage incredibly quickly. Spinning is annoying, but atleast Tentacruel doesn't last as long as Forretress.
    • Tyranitar - Mixtar can cause some problems, but Gyarados can handle them unless they have Thunderbolt. Same with Boah. CBTar requires a lot of prediction to beat me, and CurseTar loses to Deoxys unless I've let it get several boosts without the option of phazing somehow.
    • Vaporeon - Annoying, but Toxic cripples it and takes it down fairly quickly.
    • Weavile - Easy to deal with. Scizor destroys Weavile.
    • Zapdos - Again, fairly easy to deal with, but like Moltres, the Sub+Roost set can be difficult to deal with.
  3. NightFalcon

    NightFalcon

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2007
    Messages:
    253
    Replace Toxic on Garchomp with Roar and then I'd say replace Gyara's Roar with Dragon Dance because then he's a bulky RestTalk sweeper and logically that makes no sense on a stall team but it seems like a good idea ok?

    Also if you don't take the suggestion above at least replace Blissey's Toxic with Thunder Wave so that you have a double status kind of thing going. I might also say replace Scizor's Pursuit with Light Screen, this actually works surprisingly well. Also Skarmory feels out of place on this team, I dunno something about him, just not feelin it I guess. I'll write more when I'm not as lazy.
  4. tab

    tab ʕ•͡ᴥ•ʔ
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    Roar on Garchomp is unnecesarry IMO, Gyarados and Skarmory are much better at phazing threats. If anything, I'd probably drop Toxic for Stone Edge or Fire Fang.
    You clearly haven't seen most recent stall teams if you're questioning that Gyara, it's pretty much a staple of OU stall at the moment, and is just as effective in suspect. I think having a solid physical wall is much more important than adding a random DDer with bad coverage just for the sake of it.

    Again, Toxic is much more useful than Thunder Wave. I already outspeed the threats that I need to, where I need to, so Toxic for the ability to beat teams through residual damage quickly is much more useful, not to mention Toxic on a durable wall is one of my best ways of dealing with threats like Lati@s.
    Replacing Pursuit on Scizor would more or less defeat the object of it, if I'm not running Pursuit there, I may as well run a different, bulkier steel like Bronzong. Skarmory is most certainly not out of place, its arguably the single anti-metagame pokemon right now, and is pretty vital to the teams success.

    If you're going to suggest major changes to the team, please will you atleast make the effort to come up with something more than "just not feelin it I guess". Thanks.
  5. iKitsune

    iKitsune

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2008
    Messages:
    805
    I think you are going to really struggle against a well made stall team without a Rapid Spinner / Spin Blocker.

    The latter is crucial to this team. Right now I dont really see what Gyarados is doing that is not covered better by another member of your team. Further more it is leaving you prone to a multitude of forgotten but perfectly viable threats :[

    I suggest you change Gyarados to a Rest Talk Rotom-H.
    Either W o' W or Shadow Ball in the final slot. Both perform similar roles as it it is stopping Scizor and others. Rotom has some distinct advantages even though you lack Roar you make up for it with W o' W. The main advantage is that you dont have to deal with the Stealth Rock weak of Gyarados which without Rapid Spinner is not generally best used. Roar will be useless anyway if you have your spikes gone. Gyarados helps you with Luke as well but Rotom performs a similar job as well as this Rotom will help you out against Gyarados.


    Overall i think Rotom is generally more useful and better for you against stall despite the fact you then lack a Roarer. Maybe Chomp with Roar would be an option.

    Anyway i hope this helps. Apart from that pretty cool team.
  6. tab

    tab ʕ•͡ᴥ•ʔ
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    Rotom is definately a possiblity - I've tested one a few times before I settled on Gyarados. The problem is though, without Gyarados, I'm extremely weak to SD Lucario, with my only chance of countering it being Garchomp, who needs to be at 85% or so to stand a chance.

    I definately agree that I need something to help me against stall though, so I'll give Rotom a try next time I'm on Shoddy. Thanks.
  7. wildfire393

    wildfire393

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    Go with a Scarf Rotom - he stops SD Scizor, SD Lucario, and DD Gyarados quite easily, while still performing Spin-blocking duties. And Trick gives you an option to screw over opposing Stall teams and absorb Tricks meant to mess up your team.

    Also, rather than Scizor in the first slot, I can see your team greatly benefiting from Tyranitar. He should be able to hit hard enough to wipe out Lead Deoxys-s, Sandstorm ensures that the job gets finished, Pursuit can be used if you think he'll switch to eliminate him from the match entirely right from the start, and Superpower is uncommon on Lead Deoxys-ses. Sandstorm also benefits your team by setting up additional residual damage and gives Garchomp some added resilience in Sand Veil.

    As for Garchomp, I might suggest replacing Toxic with Sub, Roar, or Protect. Sub and Protect are great for scouting in a metagame that contains a lot of choiced Pokemon, and Sub can ensure he gets a hit off on Latis or Ice Sharders that switch in expecting a Swords Dancer. Either of these moves can be used to stall for residual damage buildup as well. Roar gives you a Phazing replacement for Gyarados if you swap him for Rotom-H, and can also be used to scout the opponent's team, or at very least their switch-in, which can lead to said switch-in eating a Dragon Claw to the face.
    If none of those sound like good options, I suggest Fire Blast/Fire Fang, which can be used to ruin Scizor, Skarmory, and Skymin switch-ins.

    I do admire that you have created a "Stall" team that actually focuses on an offensive victory and fairly offensive Pokemon, rather than just throwing together every entry hazard, Sandstorm, Blissey, a Spin Blocker, and a rapid spinner and calling it a team.
  8. iKitsune

    iKitsune

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    An Adamant Lucario vs. a min min Grachomp Espeed does:-
    71.71% - 84.59%
    You have a very good chance at survival even after to layers of Spikes. Lucario should nt be too problematic as even with your counters after the Defense drops from CC it should be falling to Scizor's Bullet Punch. Nice to see someone appreciating my comments ;) Cool team.
  9. tab

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    Wildfire - Scarf Rotom is good, but not suited for this kind of team. In the Gyarados/Rotom slot, I really need something that can heal its self, otherwise Skarmory is my only reliable physical wall - and the anti-metagame EV spread+nature means that I lose to several key threats.

    Tyranitar does beat lead Deoxys reliably, but I think Scizor is probably going to be a lot more useful. Roost and the steel typing is extremely good in the suspect metagame. Scizor isn't really supposed to be an anti-lead - if I wanted an anti-lead, I'd probably run a Brick Break Metagross. Scizor is pretty central to my team beating a lot of dangerous pokemon like Lati@s, and without Roost, it's not really capable of that. Tyranitar also lacks Bullet Punch, which is important in dealing with late game Deoxys. Dual screen Deoxys leads are also much easier to deal with when you're using a stall team than when you're using offense, as between Gyarados and Skarmory, chances are I have a counter for the sweeper they're trying to set up, and by the time I've phazed them out, most of the dual screen uptime has been wasted.

    I agree that Toxic should probably go - Roar and Fire Fang both sound like good choices. Substitute and Protect, I don't think are going to be worth using. As Garchomp has no recovery move, and quite often gets used as a defensive check, using 25% of it's health to potentially counter Lati@s when Scizor can already deal with them doesn't seem like a great idea, and Protect will probably be even more rarely used than Toxic is.

    iKitsune - Yeah, Garchomp can take a Lucario Extremespeed easily at full health, but the problem is Garchomp is very rarely at full health at the point in the game where a Lucario sweep becomes most likely. For Garchomp to be a Lucario counter, I have to be able to bring Chomp in at near-full health, even during the later parts of the game, which isn't something I really want to rely on.

    Thanks to both of you for your comments and compliments.
  10. tab

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    However, now that Deoxys is gone, I can run both Gyarados and Rotom, so it looks like problem solved.
  11. tab

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    Updated for the Deoxys ban, I'll make the necesarry changes to the threat list when I get time.
  12. Fleursily34

    Fleursily34

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    I second the notion of putting t-wave on Bliss. All of the suspects are incredibly vulnurable once hit with paralysis.

    Toxic is a great move on any team. and yours is Stall. It' would only be surprising to hit something with toxic from Chomp. But you might want to invest in more overall defense. I would suggest getting something else to drop rocks (zong, meta).

    Sub, Roar, SD, and to a lesser extent, fire fang could all fill in for SR.
    You might as well make the metal-head-pidgeon SR instead. Really, whats brave bird supposed to do anyway.

    Maybe check out Restalk Chomp (SD/DC/EQ) if you wish...

    Also, putting lefties on Scizor let's the foe know that he aint choiced. Try Occa berry for scary hp fire Magzones that would ohko oh Scizor even with all that s.def -__-'.then proceed blow that popcorn stand with uturn and savor his bulletpawnche fer l8er
  13. tab

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    I've already explained why I prefer Toxic on Blissey - not to mention, the only suspect that has any business switching into Blissey is Garchomp, who is immune anyway.

    Giving Skarmory SR is a pretty bad idea really, especially when it's so easy to fit elsewhere on the team. Without Brave Bird, Skarmory fails at countering many of the threats that it's supposed to such as Skymin, and the ability to finish off a weakened threat before it can do any more damage is invaluable.

    I have no problem whatsoever with the opponent knowing my Scizor isn't choiced, and Leftovers are pretty important in allowing Scizor to stick around long enough to do its job. Occa Berry isn't worth it imo, HP Fire Magnezone is annoying, but it's rare enough on the suspect ladder that overpreparing for it like that doesn't seem worth it, and even should one show up, they're effectively trading one of their pokemon for one of mine, which I can deal with if need be.
  14. Amphetamines

    Amphetamines

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    ^Leftovers numbers are overrated, and Gyarados should atleast have an Odd HP number, for the number of times it can switch into Stealth Rock.
  15. iKitsune

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    Im skeptical of your Scizor spread.

    This spread was used very effectively by stellar in Latios testing i urge you to test it out.

    EVs: 240 HP/56 Atk/212 SDef

    With the given EVs, Scizor is capable of switching in on Latios and taking Stealth Rock / Draco Meteor / -2 Surf without dying. If Latios does not switch, Pursuit deals 75.08% - 88.37% damage. However, if Latios attempts to flee, Pursuit will deal 99.67% - 117.61%, a essentially definite OHKO.

    Other than that it may be an idea to just run TTar. Sandstorm would be helpful to the team.

    TTar was a successful member of my attempt in suspect so it may be worth considering.

    TTar could be a Rest Talker your third on the team but in the current metagame. TTar a Curse Rest Talk could work well allowing you to esily beat stall.

    A CB would do well provided you got chomp out the way though that shouldnt be too difficult. It would also mean leave you less open to trickers. If you do decide to run TTar it would be wise to go Sp.Def.

    252hp / 216sp.def / 40 atk.
    " " / 252sp.def

    Crunch / Payback - your choice.

    It may be worth consideration activating a bit of hax veil would surely be worth it.
  16. tab

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    I have to admit, there wasn't a huge amount of thought put into the Scizor spread beyond "maximum special bulk without sacrificing any attack", but I've been meaning to work out a better spread for a while. With the current spread, Scizor can switch into SR and a Specs Draco Meteor, survive the second Meteor and Pursuit (+Bullet Punch if needed) for the KO, so the only time that I've wished I had a bit more bulk is against Surf. Latias in general doesn't worry me too much though.
    I think I'll probably run some calcs to see if Scizor misses out on any important KOs, if not then I'll run that spread.

    I actually tried out a RestTalk Tyranitar when I was first building the team, but I found that Scizor is much more useful. The extra steel type is always useful for dealing with dragons, and Bullet Punch/Pursuit is incredibly useful for taking out the big threats before they manage to break through me.
  17. Rurushu

    Rurushu Sleepless Strategist

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    Right now, who is your lead? Without Deo-E, Scizor isn't so great as a lead, so i really think you should swap his position with garchomp.

    Also, With both Max Sdef Skarm AND Blissey (and Deo-E Banned) CB scizor will probably helps a lot more. The extra power will help you if, somehow, some threat manages to KO Blissey/Skarmory. SDancer w/ Roost would be equally great, sweeping many suspect teams. I know, this is a stall team, but why not make life easy with more revenge power and more sweeping capability?
  18. tab

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    Scizor is the lead. I originally used Garchomp, but it needs to stay at reasonably high HP for as long as possible in order to check threats properly, and I don't feel that it's worth risking it that early on simply for first turn Stealth Rocks. Scizor wasn't really supposed to be an anti-Deoxys lead, it's simply a makeshift lead given what the team is. Scizor can U-turn to the appropriate pokemon against every lead that doesn't carry fire attacks (so basically, I'm only switching out of Jirachi at the moment, Azelf leads are rare, Infernape and Heatran even moreso). Choice Band and Swords Dance are really inferior options imo, the point of Scizor here is as a defensive check that has a direct way of dealing with a lot of the suspects. Choice Band lacks the recovery to be able to do that, and Swords Dance has to sacrifice an extremely important moveslot for very little in return.
  19. august

    august get a grip mothafucka
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    First off, I'll start by saying you have a very interesting team on your hands here. Surprise is a great factor and you seem to be using it well, based on your success. I have a few suggestions as well though.

    Run 8 Speed on Gyara. This is obviously not completely mandatory, but 8 Speed allows you to outrun and Roar out opposing Gyara who chose not to invest in anything more than 4 EVs. This isn't huge but will allow you to phaze out other Restalk Gyara on suspect (although i'm not too positive how common it is), and they will most likely be taking another 25% damage from Stealth Rock upon their next switchin as opposed to you taking the damage. Definetely not huge but worth consideration as 4 Atk and 4 Def isn't making too big a difference at all.

    My next issue is Rotom. First off you seem to be missing 8 EVs. You could also place these in speed to outpace opposing restalk Rotom a (once again i'm not sure these are too common). Also, i'd recommend using Shadow Ball + Thunderbolt or Thunderbolt + Will O Wisp. Will O Wisp seems to be your only hope against Life Orb DD Gyara right now, and 75% accuracy is shaky. It also gains an essentially free switch in on Scizor meaning it can set up rather easily and put a dent in everyone of your mons, topping at around 70% to Skarm since you aren't investing in any defense, OHKOing Chomp with Ice Fang and 2HKOing your Gyarados with Stealth Rock down. Thunderbolt is needed to stop Gyara from rampaging through your team. Intimidate also means it _can_ DD against Garchomp as well.

    Although redundantly, i agree with at least trying Roar over Toxic on Garchomp. Garchomp can force a lot of switchs right now, against mons like Fire Blast locked Scarf Heatran or Pursuit locked CB Scizor or choice locked electric attacks like Specs Lati Thunderbolt. That would give you 3 phazers which may seem a little overboard, but all 3 of them are excellent at forcing switches. The more residual damage the merrier. Skarm can also use Taunt very well, stopping last poke stat uppers and giving you a hope of killing them. Hope this helped.
  20. tab

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    Thanks for the rate. I'll definately try out the speed on Gyara, although the only RestTalk Gyara that I've seen on suspect so far have either been mine or those on opposing teams, but I guess it's still a better use of EVs.

    Nice catch on Rotom, I can't believe I've been using that spread for so long without noticing :x, as I mentioned, Rotom already has Thunderbolt thanks to LR.

    Roar is something I'm still undecided about. Toxic is very rarely useful, although the few times it has been used, it's been a gamewinner. I'll give Roar a try tomorrow and see how it works out.

    Also, now that people have finally started to realise that CB Chomp is incredible, I've realised it's pretty much my number one weakness (M Dragon can attest to this...I have to predict almost perfectly to even stand a chance), although I can't think of anything that would help deal with it better. It's manageable when I have a couple of layers of Spikes down, but if I don't manage that soon enough, then I'm in for a pretty tough time. If anyone can think of a way to help deal with CB Chomp, that would be great.

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