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New traits on old pokemon, and trade-forwards.

Discussion in 'Stark Mountain' started by Surgo, Mar 11, 2007.

  1. Surgo

    Surgo goes to eleven
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    THE CONTENTS OF THIS POST HAVE CHANGED TO REFLECT DIFFERENT INFORMATION SHOWN TO ME. FOR THINGS THAT NEED CLARIFICATION AND TESTING, PLEASE SEE POST #15 BELOW.

    There has been a lot of confusion over this lately, but the answer has been around for a while. If you have a pokemon in Advance that can only learn a single trait, and it has the possibility of a second trait in Diamond/Pearl, the pokemon can not get the second trait immediately upon trade-over.

    This is due to the way the game handles traits. It works much like gender: the game assigns a byte (0-255) for the trait value, much like gender value. A pokemon can have two possible traits; for pokemon with one trait, the second trait is NO ABILITY. It is only possible to get NO ABILITY by sharking.

    In two cases discovered so far, the pokemon will have a second copy of the trait instead of NO ABILITY: the Granbull line and the Flygon line. You can see the post with that information here.

    I postulate that the game sets the trait byte to 0 if it encounters NO ABILITY, or calculates it modulo 127 or something like that. Thus, your pokemon will always have the same trait when you trade it over to DP, even if it gets a new trait (unless it is Granbull) -- this has been shown in tests on Gamefaqs and Bulbagarden. However, if your pokemon evolves, it appears that the trait byte is randomized and thus it gets a chance at the new trait. The exact game-mechanics for this are, at the moment, unknown.

    This post will be further edited as more information comes in.

    REFERENCES:
    * [thread=16579]Correction on transferring and new traits[/thread]
    * What to do in Emerald
    * Technician
  2. ΩDonut

    ΩDonut don't glaze me bro
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    This was the premise for a theory I thought of a couple of months ago, actually.

    I asked people on Bulbagarden if they could transfer a couple of Zigzagoon over to their DP carts and see if any of their traits changed. Somebody there pointed out a flaw in the theory, though: the fact that you can shark a "No Ability" Slaking shows that the number generation for the traits is not entirely random, at least on the ADV side.

    Unless the Pokemon gets assigned a new random trait number when it arrives in Sinnoh (which Rudoku's findings may be evidence of), then its trait will remain the same.

    By the way, the Exhibit B in the above link is actually a broken link, but it used to lead to a gfaqs post of people testing if any of their Zigzagoon changed traits when transferred over. None did.
  3. Surgo

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    I'd like to see how this works exactly, but I'm not exactly an expert ROM hacker.

    edit: no tests for this.
  4. reaverz

    reaverz

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    Ah see, this idea was popular once, but then someone here said something along the lines of "Every Pokemon has 2 ability slots. Pokemon with 1 ability have the ability on slot 1, and NO ABILITY on slot 2"...

    I asked people of Gamefaqs to send in mass Zigagoons, and none of their Ziggies changed ability. Apparently if you hacked a NO ABILITY Zigzagoon and transferred it over, it would have Gluttony.

    Im kinda tired of the mixed messages though. Cant someone test it once and for all? People with the Japanese ADV and DS games can all just send 6 Ziggies each and see what happens...
  5. Surgo

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    Okay, blah, talk about mixed messages. Edited the original post so nobody runs off with any ideas just because I said so. Sadly, I did not see OmegaDonut's thread when I searched.

    So yeah, once again, if one of our wonderful testers reads this, please try it out and we'll set this mystery to rest.
  6. reaverz

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    Looks like all those Zigzagoons might have to evolve, too, judging from some of your references... I guess testers should send in level 19+ Ziggies holding a Rare Candy. With Emerald cloning this shouldnt be a problem...
  7. Surgo

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    Okay, I was SEMI-right. I just found this post.
    No need for testing, looks like the mystery is completely clear with that. No wonder we were getting mixed messages, good grief.
  8. Misty

    Misty oh
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    Didn't we decide that it changed back when the Pokemon *EVOLVED*? We knew it wouldn't change during a trade, that much was obvious, but if you traded over a bunch of Pick Up Zigzagoons and then evolved them on DP, I'm told they change traits.

    EDIT: Yep. >:O
  9. CasMat

    CasMat

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    Ummm... one of your references (and I was just posting about this earlier) contradicts your statement. The first post of the "Correction on transferring and new traits": http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=339046&postcount=1

    It says that the only way you will get the trait to change is through evolution, EG: Trading a guts Teddiursa over to DP and when you evolve, there's a chance it will have quick feet instead. None of the posts in that thread say anything about it being wrong (the last few posts are discussing about how and why this works though)

    EDIT: BLAH I WAS BEATEN
  10. reaverz

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    You know, this evolution thing would mean that all 0-255 ability values are locked onto Ability Slot 1 for Pokemon with 1 ability, correct? That would indeed make sense for the change upon evolution in D/P... Im looking forward to the testing!
  11. Surgo

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    Okay, this is all starting to make sense. Does anyone have a game-mechanics explanation as to why evolution can change the trait? I'll edit that in when I get it, fixing the original post now.
  12. reaverz

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    I believe it is because of what I said, that Pokemon with 1 ability in ADV had all 0-255 ability values "locked" onto Ability Slot #1. The ability value doesnt change when it goes to D/P, and even though the ability value can yield the new second ability in D/P, Pal Park refuses to change anything about the Pokemon transferred over.

    When the Pokemon evolves, its stats and ability are reset to fit the evolution's base stats and own abilities. So a Pokemon from ADV with ability values 127-255 or whatever would change ability to match its evolution's ability, and if the species now has 2 abilities instead of 1, it gains the new ability. It makes sense actually. Now we just need real testing...
  13. Chill Murray

    Chill Murray get well soon jacoby..

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    So am I pretty much wasting my time breeding for good Shroomish on Emerald if I want a Poison Heal Breloom on Pearl?
  14. reaverz

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    Um, we arent exactly sure yet, but its not a very smart thing to do anyway; even if it is proven that it can change, you have no way of knowing that your Adamant, all 31 IVs Shroomish would evolve into a Poison Heal Breloom in D/P...
  15. Surgo

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    Speaking of that, I'd like the following tested/answered so I can add it in to the original post for completeness and so we know for sure:

    * Can a pokemon with two possible trades change them upon evolution in Emerald? (I suspect the answer to this is already known and "no")
    * It has already been shown that pokemon traded to DP can change their traits on evolution. If you make clones of the same pokemon and transfer them, will they all change their traits on evolution, or will only some? Will the same pokemon always change / not change its trait upon evolution (if you soft reset or something).
    * Can ANY pokemon in DP with two possible traits change its trait upon evolution, or only traded pokemon? AND/OR, will only traded pokemon with NO ABILITY as their original second trait in Advance have a chance of changing their trait upon evolution?
  16. reaverz

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    I think we need to update this and continue with the investigation now that the game is out in English...

    Since there are reports of Pal Park Rhydon changing their ability upon evolution in D/P, it appears almost as if Pal Park randomizes ability values for any Pokemon that migrates... To test this I suggest someone with Pal Park access tries this asap:

    Capture a high level Zigzagoon and clone it in Emerald 6 times. Migrate the 6 clones into Pal Park and reclaim them, then evolve each one. Do all the Linoone have the same ability? If not, then it proves Pal Park randomizes the data, and since Rhydon has had two abilities since RSE and can still flip ability when evolving, it would mean that ANY Pokemon with two abilities in RSE can change to their other ability in DP.

    This would allow those bred, great IVed Illuminate Staryu to become Natural Cure Starmie in DP, by cloning it and evolving the clones until one changes. Someone should REALLY look into this, I will if I get Pal Park access soon, which is doubtful... If all the clones have the same ability (either Pickup or Gluttony) as Linoone, then it means that Pal Park doesnt randomize the ability value itself, but changes the value for a migrated Pokemon according to some hidden mechanism...
  17. Cerberus

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    What I am also wondering about if you have a rhyhorn/don with the trait Rock Head instead of Lightning Rod if the one with Rock Head has a higher chance at recieving Hard Rock since Rhyperior also has Lightning Rod.

    Somebody indeed should test it.. maybe i will today or tommorow. [the zigzagoon trick]
  18. X-Act

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    I'll just contribute to this matter with what we know already.

    In Advance, a Pokemon has a flag (a bit that is either 0 or 1) that determines whether it has <Ability1> (0) or <Ability2> (1). This is generated at random if the Pokemon has two possible abilities. But if the Pokemon has only one possible ability, this flag is set to 0. Then the numbers 0 and 1 are linked to the actual ability via a table. That means that a Slaking without Truant is impossible in Advance. However, using Action Replay, you can force the flag to be 1 for things like Slaking, resulting in a "No Ability" Slaking. loadingNOW provided me with a screenshot of a Bulbasaur with a "No Ability" ability.

    In DP, however, the Pokemon's ability is not stored as a flag, but the actual ability number is stored. This means that things such as Wonderguard Sableye are possible to be sharked in DP. In Advance, this is impossible, or at least, much more difficult, since the Pokemon only has a flag (0 or 1) which is then linked to the real ability later.

    This is how it works internally. As to what happens when Pokemon are transferred from Generation 3 to Generation 4, we don't know anything yet. But I'm posting the above to help us understand what is happening whenever we give this matter a test.
  19. Cerberus

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    I transfered 6 zigzagoon over. So wait a bit and i will have the test results for you =]
  20. Cerberus

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    So I traded 6 zigzagoon over like said in an earlier post and went evolving them in to linoone so we would found information about the abilities changing or not.

    This are the results of those 6 zigzagoon evolving.

    1) Female Linoone - Ability: Gluttony
    2) Female Linoone - Ability: Gluttony
    3) Female Linoone - Ability: Pickup
    4) Male Linoone - Ability: Gluttony
    5) Female Linoone - Ability: Pickup
    6) Male Linoone - Ability: Pickup

    So 3/6 of the zigzagoon I evolved had a changed ability when they evolved in to linoone, named "gluttony". That makes an end to all speculation I'd say since 50% of the linoone had a trait which zigzagoon couldn't recieve in RSE.

    So the ability pass-over is now random when evolving, at least from 3rd generation abilities to 4th gen abilities.

    This was the result.. so get the discussion going or finish it I'd say ^^
  21. Squabbles

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    Im very curious to know this as well because im trading someone for a rhyhorn that i really dont want to end up with lighting rod on em. That would jus blow
  22. branwagon

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    since both rhydon and rhyperior have lightning rod, when rhydon evolves, lightning rod will stay as lightning rod. rock head will change to solid rock. mine did anyway, im not sure if it happens 100% off the time, logically it should. i cant see why lightning rod would change to solid rock.
  23. kingbattlus

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    could it depend on what place lightning rod held in 3rd gen games? if it was the 0 place or w/e, and rock head was the 1 place, and now in DP lightning rod is the "second ability" and hard rock is the "first ability", would it still have a chance? im the someone with an awesome lightning rod rhyhorn :-X
  24. Squabbles

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    some closure would be great an ps KB my wireless is back up
  25. ΩDonut

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    Assuming that this Rhyhorn is in Emerald, I suggest you clone it and transfer each clone one at a time until the Rhyhorn evolves into a Rock Head Rhydon.

    If each clone always evolves into a particular trait, then we'll know it's not random. :)

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