1. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  2. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!

Nidoking (QC Approved 0/2)

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by Deck Knight, Oct 30, 2010.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight Well-shuffled and flush
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 27, 2005
    Messages:
    7,501
    This will be done by the end of the day. All Hail the King!

    Skeleton up. It's freaking Nidoking!

    ------------------------------------------------------

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG][​IMG]

    http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-bw/034.shtml

    [Overview]
    • Encourage has been released and is Nidoking's biggest selling point.
    • Massive Encourage boostable movepool.
    • Typing grants impressive normal battle condition immunities: Toxic, Thunder Wave and Sandstorm as well as a resistance to Stealth Rock.
    • It's freaking Nidoking!
    [SET]
    name: Special Attacker
    move 1: Earth Power
    move 2: Fire Blast
    move 3: Ice Beam / Shadow Ball
    move 4: Thunderbolt / Focus Blast
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Encourage
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 Def

    Set Comments:
    • Encourage gives a massive boost to Nidoking's considerable special movepool, boosting the power of nearly every move by 30%. To put it in perspective, special attacks used by max SpA Nidoking should be treated as if they came off a Pokemon with 125 Base Special Attack, not 85.
    • When a Pokemon with Encourage uses an Encourage boosted move (which would be every move on the set), it does not suffer from Life Orb recoil if it is holding a Life Orb. Combined with its Sandstorm immunity it means that Nidoking is almost never on a timer when it uses Life Orb boosted moves.
    • Earth Power is the main STAB move, while Fire Blast is it's most powerful and fairly reliable backup attack. Either move can destroy Doryuuzu.
    • You are free to mix and match Nidoking's other moves based on your team needs. Ice Beam covers Dragons (OHKO's Sazandora) and most Flying types, Thunderbolt obliterates Gyarados and bulky waters generally. Shadow Ball and Focus Blast are more niche, but again which specific combination of moves you use is mostly based on your team needs.
    • 4 Defense EVs are selected because it avoids a point of Stealth Rock damage that would occur if you added to HP.
    Additional Comments:
    • Modest Nidoking hits harder but susequently loses speed battles with the multitude of 80 Base Speed Pokemon and Gyarados. Unfortunately Focus Blast still can't 2HKO most Blissey so Timid is preferred.
    • Sludge Wave does slightly more damage than Fire Blast to a select few targets, but Fire Blast's coverage is otherwise entirely superior.
    • Nidoking can be used on any weather team, using Thunder with Rain Dance and Blizzard with Hail to enhance it's offensive threat level further.
    • This set can easily be converted to a Special Attacking Scarf set, where it speed ties Modest Scarf Sazandora. Ice Beam does 68-80% to Sazandora for reference.
    • Choice Specs is an alternative that has more raw power and can net crucial OHKO's like Ice Beam on Sazandora, however since it doesn't suffer Life Orb recoil the extra damage is not worth losing the versatility. Although it lacks the raw power it gains versatility and is not on a timer unlike most Life Orb sweepers.
    • Sucker Punch and perhaps a Naive Nature can be placed over one of the special attacks to finish off a weakened opponent. 10% recoil damage is a small price to pay for not taking a hit or bursting a Doryuuzu Baloon before Nidoking goes down.
    Teammates & Counters:
    • Nidoking still can't break through a full health Blissey or Evolution Stone Chansey even with Focus Blast, so back it up with strong physical sweepers that can take care of the blob(s). Nidoking absorbs Toxic Spikes so it can remove those from the field for your other threats, and once they are weakened Nidoking can switch into both Toxic and Thunder Wave to finish the job.
    • Nidoking enjoys having Stealth Rock on the field in addition to any other hazards. Bronzong is notable for being able to set up these hazards as well as resist most of Nidoking's weaknesses.
    • Nidoking will be situationally countered based on the moves you select. Make sure whatever holes Nidoking leaves open for itself are covered by your other Pokemon.
    [SET]
    name: Mixed Choice Scarf
    move 1: Earth Power
    move 2: Megahorn
    move 3: Head Smash
    move 4: Fire Blast
    item: Choice Scarf
    ability: Encourage
    nature: Naive
    evs: 236 Atk / 48 SpA / 224 Spe

    Set Comments:
    • Encourage acts like a Life Orb for Nidoking's special movepool, and gives its mixed sets more viability.
    • While it's fairly risky with all the inaccurate moves, Scarf Nidoking can revenge kill large swaths of the metagame or at least cripple them beyond a point they can recover from.
    • Speed EVs are set to outrun +1 Jolly Gyarados.
    • Earth Power and Fire Blast return to wipe out Doryuuzu and Skarmory. Either move can KO Doryuuzu with Spikes down, while Special Defensive Skarmory is resoundingly 2HKO'd by Fire Blast.
    • Head Smash can OHKO Offensive Gyarados and can take out Bulky Gyarados after SR.
    • Megahorn does 68-81% damage to Sazandora, KOing it most of the time after it switches into SR damage twice or takes Sandstorm damage.
    Additional Comments:
    • Nidoking can user safer moves like Thunderbolt and Ice Beam to take out targets like Gyarados and Salamence, however its physical movepool is not as compelling if it isn't invested, as Nidoking doesn't get much help from Encourage there.
    • The element of surpise and general customability of Scarf Nidoking is where its strengths lie, but it does have a problem with trying to do too much. Pick the targets of Scarf Nidoking wisely.
    Teammates & Counters:
    • Mixed Scarf Nidoking is the defintion of Four Moveslot Syndrome, it's purpose is to plug the holes in your team, so you want to build Nidoking around your team rather than building your team around it.
    • Nonetheless, Scarf Nidoking enjoys as much hazard support as it can get. Skarmory is a good partner for laying down hazards and Nidoking can pivot in on Electric attacks aimed at it. Of particular note is it will block Volt Change through its immunity.
    [SET]
    name: Mixed Claw Sharpen
    move 1: Claw Sharpen
    move 2: Earthquake
    move 3: Sucker Punch
    move 4: Blizzard / Thunder / Focus Blast
    item: Life Orb / Baloon
    ability: Encourage
    nature: Naive
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe

    Set Comments:
    • Claw Sharpen is Nidoking's only means of boosting Attack, and combined with Encourage it can do quite well exploiting the huge boosted Base Powers of its inacurate special attacks. Each 120 BP attack gets boosted to an impressive 156, more than a super-effective Hidden Power to start.
    • Although it isn't boosted by Encourage, a +1 Life Orb STAB Earthquake is nothing to sneeze at, soundly 2HKOing Blissey and generally anything that doesn't resist it.
    • Sucker Punch allows Nidoking to get the drop on faster opponents. It took doesn't benefit from Encourage and therefore suffers from Life Orb recoil, however taking 10% to prevent much greater damage is an acceptable tradeoff.
    • Choose your special attack based on your team. One Claw Sharpen doesn't entirely negate the accuracy problems of Blizzard, Thunder, or Focus Blast, but 93% is good enough all things considered. Be wary that Thunder still has a Sandstorm problem so Thunderbolt is advised if you want it to get a drop on Gyarados specifically.
    • Although the power drop is considerable, Baloon gives Nidoking a chance to burst the Baloons of other attackers. Focus Blast is notable here for hitting many of the Pokemon that utilize Baloon, including Heatran and Doryuuzu, both of which are cleanly 2HKOd, Doryuuzu by a combination of Focus Blast and Sucker Punch.
    Additional Comments:
    • Nidoking's Physical Encourage movepool is uninspiring, consisting of Rock Slide, Iron Tail, and Poison Jab, however these moves will not suffer recoil damage from Life Orb.
    • Fire Blast's acuracy issue is completely removed after Claw Sharpen, however on this particular set Nidoking aims to cover one of its weaknesses rather than enhancing overall coverage. Nonetheless Life Orb Fire Blast does cleanly 2HKO Special Defensive Skarmory and unlike Thunder doesn't suffer an acuracy drop in Sandstorm.
    Teammates & Counters:
    • This Nidoking wears down the opponents walls and can pick off weakened opposing Pokemon, so sweepers that require a little bit of prior damage can rely on Nidoking to weaken the opponent.
    • Hazard damage is also important here, either with Spikes, Stealth Rock support, or both. The Skarmory + Nidoking combo also holds true here for fending off Electrics, as a Choice Scarf Volt Change is a chance for Nidoking to use Claw Sharpen.
    • Nidoking only tends to carry one special attack for coverage on this set, so anything that can deal with Earthquake and Sucker Punch and whatever move it selects (Salamence in the case of Thunder or Focus Blast, Bulky Gyarados for Blizzard or Focus Blast, etc.) will counter it.
    [Team Options]
    • Nidoking's great versatility means you should plan Nidoking around your team, not your team around Nidoking. It's problem has always been being too mediocre and Encourage solves a lot of that, but it's still primarily backup.
    • Blissey and Evolution Stone Chansey wall the majority of its sets so a Pokemon that can break through them is greatly appreciated. Rohpushin has respectable bulk and easily sets up on those opponents, with Guts to exploit Boiling Water or Iron Fist to help weaken foes for Nidoking with Mach Punch.
    • Hazards are very valuable to Nidoking, and Nattorei can set them up as well as deal with Nidoking's Water and Psychic weaknesses. Since Fire is a common problem type for Nidoking and many of its partners, a strong offensive Dragon type like Salamence or Sazandora who can punch holes in the opponent as well are also good partners.
    [Optional Changes]
    • Nidoking has Taunt to prevent an opponent from setting up hazards or phazing out its boosts with Roar or Whirlwind.
    • Nidoking can also lay down a layer of Toxic Spikes if it can force something out, although it has difficulty setting down a second layer and should generally focus on eliminating whatever is in front of it
    • Nidoking does have Stealth Rock from the 4th Gen TMs, however it is incompatible with Encourage and Rivalry is a much more suspect ability.
    • Nidoking does have a physical movepool large enough for Choice Band even after removing 4th generation tutors, however Encourage's boosts to its more useful special attacks biases it much more to the special side.
    [Counters]
    • Blissey and Evolution Stone Chansey wall the majority of Nidoking's sets.
    • Skarmory can Roost off the damage from most of the attacks Nidoking would select on the Claw Sharpen set, howevr it should avoid the Special Attacking and mixed sets like the plague.
    • Nidoking otherwise has very few direct counters because of it's great offensive versatility. Once you know it's set and item it can be played around, but until then Nidoking is a menace.
    • Revenge killing Nidoking is usually just a matter of having a faster Pokemon with Ground, Water, Psychic, or Ice moves, however be careful because while Nidoking's defenses are mediocre, few of the faster Pokemon enjoy taking any hit from it, and it can usually take an unboosted hit once before going down.
    [Dream World]
    • Nidoran (M) has been released into the Dream World and thus Encourage Nidoking is now entirely legal. Sets have been listed to reflect that.
    • Encourage or something like it is what the Nidos have been wanting for 4 Generations now. Seriously.
  2. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2009
    Messages:
    4,806
    C'mon! I'd really like to see Encourage get more discussion, it's fricken' great on Nidoking with his movepool! Flamethrower, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Earth Power, (...). Anyway, formatting looks fine, marking as done.
  3. cim

    cim happiness is such hard work
    is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2007
    Messages:
    5,412
    I feel Encourage is something that will be a little bit overhyped. I mean, 125 SpA is good, but not incredible... That being said, everyone should give Nidoking a little love!

    Focus Blast is terrible on Nidoking. It's only for Blissey, pretty much, and IMO that's not enough to justify it. It's almost completely redundant with Earth Power, it misses a lot, and being able to run Thunderbolt / Ice Beam to get SE coverage on almost anything is a lot more important than sometimes doing a lot to Blissey with an inaccurate move.

    Sludge Wave deserves a slash as secondary STAB; it does just a bit more than Fire Blast to a lot of Grass types and if you don't have room for SE BoltBeam on some set it can do decent neutral damage. Maybe Gunk Shot on the Sharpen set?
  4. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2009
    Messages:
    5,148
    Why is Choice Specs the primary option when Nidoking can abuse Life Orb without taking Life orb recoil?

    (Encourage prevents you from taking Life Orb recoil when using moves that are boosted by encourage)
    I think it should be the only option.
  5. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight Well-shuffled and flush
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 27, 2005
    Messages:
    7,501
    Normally I'd agree with the Ground + Fighting is redundant bit, however Balloon is being seen on an obscene number of Pokemon that are both Ground and Fighting weak (Heatran and Doryuzzu being only the most immediate examples), and Focus Blast for all of its various failings usually puts them to bed.

    Poison is just a godawful STAB when you have Fire Blast. The complete list of Pokemon Sludge Wave hits harder than Fire Blast is restricted almost entirely to Grass types without Poison, Ground, Rock, or Steel subtyping, and of those Celebi and Shaymin are the only ones you will ever see who aren't equally nuked by Fire Blast. Sludge Wave does slaughter Ludicolo where none of Nidoking's other Special moves do, though. I have it listed in Additional Comments on the first set though because while it's not terrible, there are very, very few reasons to use it when you've got 156 BP Fire Blasts.

    Gunk Shot is a 4th Gen tutor so sadly you can't use it with Encourage. Poison Point sucks and Rivalry makes it worse that Encourage Poison Jab half the time. Iron Tail is arguably a better option than Gunk Shot since it is legal with Encourage and it adds the Rock/Flying mons and Ice types to your SE coverage, for whatever that's worth.

    I'll make Life Orb the primary option and slash Choice Specs. Versatility in this case is much better than raw output.
  6. Sea Knight

    Sea Knight

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2010
    Messages:
    8
    I would consider Level Ground over Earthquake in the Mixed Claw Sharpen set. It IS Encourage boosted (probably), and a 90 BP move with no LO recoil should be considered over a 100 BP move with LO recoil.
  7. sax king

    sax king

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2010
    Messages:
    769
    I think a lead set should be put in the analysis

    Nidoking has Toxic Spikes, Taunt, and Sucker Punch, although he doesn't even need all of them. He can pack tremendous power and can OHKO weaker leads and 2HKO bulky ones. The Boltbeam combo is capable of taking down some of the most popular leads out there right now, and he can set up afterwards.

    Nidoking
    --Thunderbolt
    --Ice Beam
    --Earthpower/Taunt
    --T-Spikes/Stealth Rock
    Focus Sash/Life Orb
    Encourage
    Modest/Timid

    I've been using on PO for a while now, and he does quite well. The only lead that can give it trouble is Espeon, and even that can be handled by a strong Dark type. You should mention that it works well on toxic stall teams and with Evil Eye Gengar.
  8. Mountain Dewgong

    Mountain Dewgong

    Joined:
    May 9, 2009
    Messages:
    1,778
    The speed loss is a PRIMARY effect of the move so it is not boosted by encourage. It always drops the speed of the opponent in contrast to flamethrower for example, which has a chance to burn.
  9. Maketsu

    Maketsu

    Joined:
    May 26, 2010
    Messages:
    83
    Imo this sounds pretty good, so i think it deserves analysis too.
  10. Banryu

    Banryu

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2009
    Messages:
    1,742
    I'm pretty sure Encourage and Stealth Rock are illegal together. :I Looks like he's basically restricted to TSpikes as a lead if he wants that Encourage boost (which he does). Also, Earth Power and Ice Beam get good coverage, so you want to slash Taunt in the front over Tbolt, if it gets included at all. Set should look like:

    - Earth Power
    - Ice Beam
    - Taunt
    - Toxic Spikes
  11. The Pokemon Pimp

    The Pokemon Pimp

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2009
    Messages:
    662
    I'm not sure I'm posting in the correct place, but there were a few instances where "balloon" is spelled incorrectly.

    (I'm sorry if this is not the place to post this, I'm probably coming off as a jerk anyway)
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)