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Nidoqueen (Analysis)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Meru, Mar 14, 2011.

  1. Meru

    Meru
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    [​IMG]

    http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-bw/031.shtml

    Status:
    - Written
    - [3/3] QC checks (iconic, PK_Gaming, Bloo)
    - [2/2] GP checks (Fatecrashers, NatGeo)
    - Done

    [Overview]

    <p>As a defensive Ground-type with a resistance to Fighting-type moves, Nidoqueen is generally overshadowed by Gliscor. However, she holds two key assets over Gliscor: the ability to lay and absorb Toxic Spikes. These two assets make Nidoqueen preferable for full stall teams in need of a Toxic Spiker. She provides her team with vital resistances to Rock-, Bug-, and Fighting-type attacks, while having an immunity to Electric-type attacks, allowing her to function as a sturdy switch-in to many top threats such as Tyranitar, Heracross, Lucario, Scizor, Toxicroak, and Terrakion.</p>

    <p>However, Nidoqueen similarly lacks two key assets that make Gliscor the preferable choice. Firstly, she lacks any reliable recovery outside of Leftovers, making her very susceptible to being worn down. She also suffers from a Ground-type weakness, making her unable to counter top sand threats such as Excadrill and Landorus. If your team doesn't require Toxic Spikes support and / or absorption, then Gliscor is generally the superior choice. Also, any attempts to sweep or wall-break are better left to her male counterpart, Nidoking, who boasts higher speed and better attacking stats.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Toxic Spike Support
    move 1: Toxic Spikes
    move 2: Earth Power / Earthquake
    move 3: Flamethrower
    move 4: Ice Beam
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Sheer Force
    nature: Bold / Relaxed
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>With respectable 90 / 87 / 85 defenses and a unique typing that resists both Rock- and Fighting-type attacks, Nidoqueen has an easy time switching into the ubiquitous Tyranitar, as well as the countless new Fighting-types released this generation. From there, she provides her team with Toxic Spikes support, while scaring off grounded Poison-types with her STAB Ground-type attacks. Thanks to Sheer Force, Nidoqueen has the equivalent of uninvested 112/104 offensive stats, allowing her to hit back hard enough to avoid being setup bait.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>HP and Defense EVs are maximized in order to make her as physically bulky as possible so that she can abuse her good resistances. The choice between Earth Power and Earthquake is choosing between running all special attacks with a neutral speed nature versus hitting Tyranitar and Terrakion harder as well as being harder to switch into due to being able to attack from both sides of the spectrum. Her Ground-type STAB hit three common absorbers, Nidoking, Toxicroak and Tentacruel, for super effective damage, preventing them from absorbing her Toxic Spikes and ruining her hard work. Flamethrower is a fantastic coverage attack that does great damage to Pokemon immune to Poison, including Steel-types such as Scizor, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Forretress, as well as preventing Venusaur from absorbing Nidoqueen's Toxic Spikes with impunity. Ice Beam helps Nidoqueen hit Flying-types who evade her Toxic Spikes, most notably Gliscor.</p>

    <p>With weaknesses to Water-, Ice-, Ground-, and Psychic-type moves, Nidoqueen really appreciates bulky Water-types as teammates. They shrug off Water- and Ice-type attacks, while Nidoqueen absorbs their worst enemy, Toxic Spikes. Jellicent stands out as one of the better Water-types to pair Nidoqueen with, spinblocking any foes attempting to rid the field of Toxic Spikes. Slowbro also synergizes well with Nidoqueen, being able to also resist Psychic-type attacks, as well as handling Excadrill and Landorus, the two sand threats Nidoqueen has trouble with. Blissey, Jirachi, and Vaporeon all help to cover Nidoqueen's specially oriented weaknesses, while providing Wish support to alleviate her recovery issues. Nidoqueen covers Tyranitar's Fighting weakness, while Tyranitar provides Nidoqueen with eternal Sandstorm to wear down her opponents. Skarmory synergizes well with Nidoqueen, setting up with Spikes and being able to phaze, as well as being immune to Ground-type attacks, allowing it to handle Excadrill and Landorus. Celebi also boasts Water-, Ground-, and Psychic-type resists, and serves as a free switch-in to Nidoqueen's biggest counter, Rotom-W, while Nidoqueen cushions the U-turns that prey on Celebi's dangerous 4x Bug weakness.</p>

    [OTHER OPTIONS]

    <p>Balanced teams can invest more EVs in Special Attack and equip a Life Orb in order to net some important OHKOs at the cost of sacrificing Nidoqueen's precious bulk and ability to recover her health from Leftovers in Sandstorm. Stealth Rock can be used if required by your team, but must be used alongside Poison Point, since it is illegal with Sheer Force, which means Earthquake becomes a bit more advantageous than Earth Power. Fire Blast can be used over Flamethrower for more power, but does not manage to net any important OHKOs that Flamethrower misses. Super Fang can be used to punish switch-ins that Nidoqueen cannot hurt. Nidoqueen also has the option of running Taunt, but is generally too slow to abuse it. Her strongest Poison-type STAB attack, Sludge Wave, allows her to hit switch-ins Rotom-W and Celebi, who shrug off Ground-type attacks, but generally lacks in coverage beyond those two. Dragon Tail provides Nidoqueen the ability to phaze, allowing it to rack up residual damage and avoid giving free switch-ins to dangerous foes such as Gyarados and Latios, but is usually dismissed in favor of the ability to scare out key threats with the coverage of Ice Beam and Fire Blast.</p>

    [CHECKS AND COUNTERS]

    <p>Pokemon that do not fear Nidoqueen's coverage attacks while taking no damage from Toxic Spikes can cause a lot of trouble. Rotom-W is the prime example, taking no significant damage from any of Nidoqueen's attacks and scaring her out with a STAB Hydro Pump. Starmie also proves be a nuisance with Natural Cure, Rapid Spin, and Recover, giving it the ability endlessly force out and ruin Nidoqueen's set up. Without Ice Beam, Nidoqueen provides a free switch in to Flying-types who evade her Toxic Spikes. Without Fire Blast, Steel-types such as Scizor, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Forretress use Nidoqueen as set up bait. Without Dragon Tail, Taunt Dragon Dance Gyarados and Latios wreck complete havoc on Nidoqueen's team. Reuniclus laughs at any hazards set up by Nidoqueen's team and begins to set up its devastating Calm Minds.</p>
  2. GtM

    GtM

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    I'd say that the ability to absorb and lay toxic spikes should only count as one key asset, not two, at least from the way you've worded it.
  3. Meru

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    Well not all toxic spikers absorb toxic spikes and not all pokemon that absorb toxic spikes can put down toxic spikes, so I think it's fine to emphasize them as separate aspects.
  4. RaikouLover

    RaikouLover

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    Correction, all Toxic Spikers tend to be poison pokemon other than Forretress. Off the dome, Venomoth, Roserade, Nidos, Tentacruel, and Drapion all lay and absorb Toxic Spikes, so this ability is more common than just Nidoqueen.
  5. snorlax

    snorlax

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    I'm not really certain that fire blast is all that necessary on the set, as earth power/ice beam has great coverage already. also, seeing how this is a stall based moveset, steel types are easily countered by other pokemon commonly appearing on stall teams, such as jellicent, skarmory, and magnezone.
  6. Meru

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    Makes sense. I decided to slash Fire Blast as a secondary option for both Ice Beam and Dragon Tail.
  7. tophway

    tophway

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    Im not convinced Ice Beam is preferable over Fire Blast. Yes you can hit Gliscor if you survive an EQ (does about 42-50% with attack uninvested), but Id much rather be forced out by a Gliscor than by a Skarm, Ferrothorn or Forry who uses the free turn to set up hazards, or spin yours away. Fire Blast 2HKOs all of them, while Earth Power struggles to hurt both SpD Forry and Ferrothorn. And not that you are setup bait for SD Scizor when you're packing Dragon Tail, but wouldn't it be nicer to just roast ones that thought you were instead?

    Everything else Ice Beam gets better coverage on seems like its both faster and carries a super effective attack for Nidoqueen: the genies, Garchomp, Lati@s, errr Im sure there were others when I was thinking about this. Of course Ice Beam is a good move on her, but unless you DO have a Magnezone on your stall team which can handily deal with everything a Fire Blasting Nidoqueen can, seems to me like fire trumps ice...

    Also your link leads to Volcarona's page :P
  8. Meru

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    Okay I changed the link (copied and pasted it but forgot to change to my pokemon... awk)

    I also changed the moveset one last time. I'm pretty sure this set up should please everybody.
  9. A Man In Black

    A Man In Black

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    I'd drop Earthquake and Poison Point from the moveset entirely, and just mention that you should use EQ and PP if you need Stealth Rock for some reason. Right now, it's just distracting clutter.

    Other Options is awfully small for a Pokemon with such a large movepool. At least mention Sludge Wave (Nidoqueen's strongest special/Sheer Force-boosted STAB), Thunderbolt, and possibly Shadow Ball, even if you also mention that offensive movesets are better left to Nidoking.
  10. Meru

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    I've actually been thinking about Earthquake in that it hits the things it needs to hit harder than Earth Power does. Tyranitar, Lucario, and Terrakion all take much more damage from Earthquake than Earth Power, as well as making it harder for opposing stall teams to switch anything in since mix tends to be harder to wall. Combine that with the fact that Nidoqueen has a higher attack than special attack and I'm thinking Earthquake is superior, even with the Sheer Force boosts considered

    I'm not sure why you'd want Nidoqueen to be running Thunderbolt or Shadow Ball. She has no business trying to take on Gyarados or Gengar (the only threats that would be worth using those attacks for). Sludge Wave also doesn't really hit anything that Nidoqueen has trouble with except Celebi and Rotom-W. I'll put a mention in for Sludge Wave since those two can be problematic and it's nice to have a good STAB, but the other two provide absolutely no beneficial coverage. Just because she has a very extensive movepool of attacks doesn't mean all of them should be listed in Other Options, otherwise Smeargle's would be five pages long.
  11. tophway

    tophway

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    My biggest issue with using Earthquake is running a -speed nature, which I hadn't noticed was originally on there. Small points, but where a neutral speed nature triumphs over a -speed is in outrunning Skarm, bulky subseeder Breloom, and taunt Jellicent

    Now Earth Power is doing 25% or less to Jellicent so thats not really a boon, but given NidoQ will be playing on a stall team Jellicent might switch into hazards enough times to find itself at KO range. Subseed Breloom isnt that common but NidoQ really has the upper hand as long as its faster. Outspeeding min speed Skarm is a pretty big selling point for a neutral speed nature imo, since you can both avoid a taunt and 2HKO it.

    Hitting Terakion harder is good, if one ever stays in, but I agree hitting Ttar harder with EQ is a huge plus, as otherwise he will KO you with Ice Beam first. Maybe it just comes down to preference and what your team needs
  12. EdgeHead

    EdgeHead

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    Just a minor thing, your Serebii link is for Nidoqueen's 4th gen page, not 5th
  13. Buzzcut

    Buzzcut

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    Is it worth noting that Nidoqueen can perform well on a rain-stall team because it:

    - Is immune to electric attacks and neutral to grass
    - Can lay and absorb Toxic Spikes (SR if needed as well)
    - Can abuse thunder
    - Has good synergy with Ferrethorn and Bulky Waters

    Or am I the only one that thinks rain stall is fun as hell?
  14. Meru

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    Nah not really just because she performs well on any kind of stall team. And as far as absorbing toxic spikes, most rain stall teams I've seen have Toxicroak for that.
  15. Buzzcut

    Buzzcut

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    I've been running both as Rain Dish Tentacruel is another Electric weakness and Toxicroak can't learn Toxic Spikes.

    Completely get what you mean and won't push it any further than this. It's just that Nidoqueen isn't the most versatile Poke and was suggesting an alternative use.
  16. Majora_younglink

    Majora_younglink

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    Uh, I guess semi-bump to this if its even really alive. I've personally been running a 252 HP/136 Def/120 Sp Atk Bold Nidoqueen and it's been doing me great on my offensive teams.

    name: Offensive Toxic Spiker
    move 1: Toxic Spikes
    move 2: Earth Power
    move 3: Fire Blast
    move 4: Ice Beam
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Sheer Force
    nature: Bold
    evs: 252 HP/120 Def/136 Sp Atk

    Earthpower/Fire Blast/Ice Beam is just great coverage and with the given EV spread it can stand up to even an earthquake from Excadrill with SR on the field and OHKO it with a Fire Blast. It can switch in fairly safely on most fighting types this gen and threaten to take out a huge chunk of their HP with its attacks or even OHKO them due to their subtype if they're low enough on HP (usually about 60-80% range from my experience on non special defensed pokemon). With a bold it can also outrun a good portion of the slower physical walls due to low speed investments on their parts and hit them for OHKOs or darn near OHKOs, most notably Skarm after SR (so it no longer has sturdy). This of course leaves it problems with special walls like Blissey but the toxic spikes are meant to counteract that fact as almost no special wall wants to get toxiced.
  17. Meru

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    That's basically the same set as the first one. I doubt I'd want to add another set just for a slightly more offensive investment. As far as Nidoqueen's niche goes in OU, she's pretty one-dimensional.

    This analysis has been finished for quite some time now, but I haven't gotten a single QC to look it over :/
  18. banditking15

    banditking15

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    Roserade is a much better toxic spikes absorber and layer, although its move pool isnt as wide as nidoqueen, it has sleep powder. so my question is, Does its ability separate it from other toxic spikers? Because i dont see its niche as all toxic spikers can absorb toxic spikes.
  19. Majora_younglink

    Majora_younglink

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    Uh, well actually the set plays a lot different from the set you have down. Assuming I have your set understood its more of a defensive variant that is supposed to do okay damage while setting up toxic spikes. The set I put down actually makes use of its ability to get some very vital KOs for offensive teams while also meanwhile having the option of putting down toxic spikes if given the chance. I wasn't really thinking it deserved a set of its own but a possible OC mention due to how well it can function as a anti-metagame pokemon by not only killing Exca after coming in on SR and surviving its EQ but it also resists fighting and rock two attacks very common in this metagame. (EQ weakness and Psychic weakness is unfortunate though)

    All the same, I just don't see Relaxed working well for Nidoqueen. She appreciates her base speed enough to not want to go -speed and lose some vital outspeeding on a few walls like Skarm.

    @Bandit King: Being able to kill Skarm and Exca for one and not only that its ability to check things like Conkeldurr. They just play a lot differently. Queen is much more defensive while Rose is a lot more offensive.
  20. banditking15

    banditking15

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    Alright fair enough. Although, Roserade can get rid of Skarm and Exca with HP fire. But Nidoqueen is much more defensively played, therefore earning it merit as a toxic spiker. this is what i understand, and it seems fair enough to conclude.
    But Nidoqueen seems like a middleground between Roserade and Drapion, where Roserade is really offensive, and Drapion is really defensive. is this a fair conclusion?
  21. Majora_younglink

    Majora_younglink

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    It seems fair enough, I'd consider Nidoqueen just a smidgen better than Drapion though with its Dream World ability and a life orb in effect but calling it the middle ground is by no way far from the truth. (If Nidoqueen only had better typing though, if only)
  22. EricaHartmann

    EricaHartmann

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    No mention of Starmie as a check/counter? Sure it doesn't like STAB Earthquake, but it can come in on Ice Beam/Flamethrower/Toxic Spikes and either KO with a water attack or spin away the Toxic Spikes.
  23. yee

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    I also think this set should be added- it looks like it works great on specially based offensive teams because Nidoqueen's unique combination of resistances makes it a great bulky pivot into all kinds of fighting types (Conkeldurr, Heracross, Terrakion, etc.) and it is no slouch offensively as you mentioned it has the equivalent of base 104 special attack with decently powered moves and doesn't take LO recoil with Sheer Force. In my experience Toxic Spikes is a great combo with an attacker like this, its suprising how much easier bringing down a Chansey or other special walls becomes.

    I would at least mention it as an alternative EV spread because Nidoqueen has its unique typing, staying power, utility, and firepower all used in one set.

    Edit- Extensive testing has shown me this set also works great on rain teams, with T spikes/Thunder/Earth Power and Fire Blast/Ice Beam. Toxic Spikes are a great way to take down other weather inducers over time and the added fire resist makes it a near-perfect counter to Fire types like Infernape and Arcanine. It also handles Volcarona well but cant do too much back. Ice Beam hits Lati@s, Thundurus and Gliscor hard on the switch, but Fire Blast is nice for the still-massive damage output against Ferrothorn and Scizor.
  24. Majora_younglink

    Majora_younglink

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    Mild bump to this topic because of server issues at the exact same time I posted the set. Also maybe possibly to get some QC checks on this? Queen is a pretty okay pokemon.
  25. Iconic

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    This looks pretty good, but I think Dragon Tail should be de-slashed in both the third and second slots to clean up the analysis. It definitely still deserves mention in the write up, but any time I use Nidoqueen I always find myself needed both Fire Blast and Ice Beam most of the time due to the prevalence of both Gliscor and Ferrothorn. The Life Orb set looks fine on paper, but I agree that it is extremely similar to the standard set. I suppose it could be mentioned in Other Options, but I'm pretty sure I'd use Nidoking for that role so I could abuse Earthquake too.

    Just a final nitpick, when you use a slash, make sure there is a space both before and after it. For example, "252 HP/252 Def/4 SpD" should be "252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD". Anyways, this is very well written. Nice work!

    QC Approved 1/3

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