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Nidoqueen Suspect Discussion

Discussion in 'BW RU' started by Oglemi, Jul 31, 2012.

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  1. Oglemi

    Oglemi We broke it. Yes, we were naughty. Completely naughty.
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    What you're expected to do in this thread:

    1. Post which sets you used in the round and what you found good about it, what beat it, etc.

    2. Discuss Nidoqueen's place in the tier, has the metagame adapted properly to it? Does it break the metagame? What counters are there to Nidoqueen?

    3. All Council members are expected to post their thoughts on, experiences using, and experiences against Nidoqueen in this thread.

    Me and SilentVerse are not set on what we're doing for non-Council members and whether or not we'll be having any allowed to vote. The reason for this is because of the PS! downtime and then the messed up ladder. Your posts here could help determine whether we want you to be a part of the vote or not!
  2. mfhoundoom

    mfhoundoom

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    Nidoqueen @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sheer Force
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 SDef
    Modest Nature
    - Earth Power
    - Sludge Wave
    - Thunderbolt
    - Fire Blast

    This is the set that me and most likely most people are using. She is such a beast and so hard to check. However, Nidoqueen needs great predictions behind her which might be the difference between overpowered and incredibly useful in the hands of a master. This set carries something for all it's checks aside from Clefable. Offensive Cryogonal is KO'd over 50 percent of the time and every time when Stealth Rock is up. It does at least 68% to defensive versions, which can't KO back and are not very useful left at low hp. Thunderbolt KO's Moltres 70% of the time and of course all the time when Stealth Rock is up. It also KO's Siggy, and Sludge Wave will finish it if it has just a bit of damage on it. If it's a good Siggy, it shouldn't have a psychic move anyway. Mesprit is 2KO'd by Sludge Wave but outspeeds Nidoqueen. Uxie has a chance of being 2KO'd by Sludge Wave after Stealth Rock but won't outspeed. And lastly Clefable stops it cold. I don't often use Clefable, but maybe it's ratings will go up as Lanturn's will when Hurricane Moltres came out. (I didn't include Munchlax because he should never be used.)

    Nidoqueen tears through most of the common cores like TangKing and SteelBuzz and most of it's counters are quite imperfect. Many of the calcs I gave are quite idealistic but it's not as hard as it might seem from the Nidoqueen owner's perspective. I do not yet think it is broken, as the metagame is quite offensive and Nidoqueen is pretty damn slow, but I could certainly be convinced otherwise as it is clearly a vicious beast. One thing that Nidoqueen doesn't have is variety among sets. Pretty much any Nidoqueen will be this Nidoqueen. If one sets up Toxic Spikes when you expected it to Earth Power, it's no big deal because T Spikes in RU sucks. Ice Beam is not very useful in RU and shouldn't be expected from Nidoqueen.
  3. august

    august free the robots
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    Nidoqueen @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sheer Force
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 SDef
    Modest Nature
    - Earth Power
    - Sludge Wave
    - Thunderbolt
    - Fire Blast

    This Nidoqueen set, as mfhoundoom said, is probably the set that most of us used this round. This Nidoqueen set had the ability to 2-3HKO the whole metagame, and when used with proper support, was incredibly hard to stop. Nidoqueen has a good amount of offensive checks, but the fact that most of its checks are offensive raises a problem. With the arrival of Nidoqueen this round, I was almost forced to run Offense. The Defensive and Stall teams i tried out were forced to double/triple check Nidoqueen, and sometimes I still lost to it. In my opinion, Nidoqueen made defensive playing incredibly difficult, and it really forced the metagame to become more offensive.

    Many of Nidoqueens checks are also "soft checks" and have a lot of trouble switching in directly to Nidoqueen as well. Munchlax has trouble with entry hazards and is easily forced out, and Clefable becomes a sitting duck on double switchs to strong physical attackers like Gallade. Nidoqueen is resistant to Stealth Rock as well as OHKOing every Spiker outsite of Roselia, meaning that it accels at being able to switch in/switch out continuously. It takes no Life Orb recoil as well as having 90/87/85 defensive stats, making it able to survive a good amount of super effective attacks without defensive investment (non Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall, Cryogonal Ice Beam, Steelix Earthquake). Nidoqueen can also use Substitute rather effectively to ease prediction or set up Stealth Rock to help out the rest of its team

    The above average defenses also allow Nidoqueen to check a good deal of pokemon with no investment. Nidoqueen checks Defensive Tangrowth, Whimsicott, Cofagrigus (even OTR doesnt OHKO), Magneton, Galvantula, Drapion and many others.

    So all in all, my points
    -Hits ridiculously hard
    -Makes defensive playing much more difficult, essentially forces you to either play Offense or carry a ton of checks
    -Checks a good amount of stuff with no investment
    -Resistant to hazards so it can switch in rather easily
    -No Life Orb recoil thanks to Sheer Force gives it a lot of longevity

    Sorry Nidoqueen, I think you're broken :(
  4. Double01

    Double01 Hate it or love it the under dog's on top

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    I'm very against banning anything unless it really influences the metagame drastically and shows dominance in the metagame.

    I have used nidoqueen quite extensively, specifically the 4 attack set listed above, and although nidoqueen can cause defensive oriented teams trouble, imo, it struggles against very offensive fast teams. Nidoqueen has trouble switching in on both offensive and defensive teams. Especially on offensive teams, where most 'mons on the opposing team are going to be faster then nidoqueen and will easily be able to KO nidoqueen on the switch in. In fact of the 32 mon's faster then nidoqueen at least 26 of those mons have easy time 2hko or even OHKOing nidoqueen. And considering my HO team is all faster then nidoqueen (except my own nidoqueen) i have a very easy time dealing with nidoqueen. In fact i didnt even plan on nidoqueen in my team building process it just happened to get checked on the way.

    Now most people think its impossible to be able to switch in on nidoqueen to their check (which is the main reason why they think its broken). Though, nidoqueen has fantastic coverage and power your opponent won't be able to predict the right move 100% of the time. (It's really not THAT hard to get a switch in on a resisted move against nidoqueen) You can also use u-turn on a bulky uxie to allow uxie to take the hit and get a free switch in to your check.

    Many people make that using a more defensive team becomes unviable because of Nidoqueen. While this is somewhat true to an extent there are many things an defensive team can do to deal with Nidoqueen. For example, carrying a trick user, like Rotom, is extremely useful on a defensive team because if you are able to trick a Nidoqueen then it becomes one dimensional and much easier to wall now. Another thing that a defensive team should carry is at least one mon that can take a hit and ohko back. On my defensive team i used SubCm uxie (even though DC says its trash :/) and it did an excellent job at taking a hit and koing back with psyshock. You can use other stuff like Mesprit and gallade. And with clever switching a defensive team should be able to handle nidoqueen just fine.

    The best way to deal with it is just to always apply pressure at nidoqueen allowing u to get free switches into your checks/counters. And although nidoqueen has next to no counters it has a lot of checks that can deal with nidoqueen and there are alot of different ways to deal with nidoqueen, such as tricking it a scarf.

    That being said although i dont think Nidoqueen deserves a ban I'm still on the fence because of nidoqueens amazing power and its ability to force many switches.
  5. Bigblue

    Bigblue

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    Coverage (Nidoqueen) (F) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sheer Force
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Substitute
    - Thunderbolt
    - Flamethrower
    - Earth Power

    A little different than the last two sets but still gets the job done. Well personally this set was a life saver as getting to setup subs on forced switches was so great for sweeping whole teams in RU. It may lack the power of Sludge Wave and Fire Blast but I often saved her as a late game sweeper or to take potential Electric moves, Toxic and T Wave and once the sub was up most teams didn't stand a chance. Personally I prefer Flamethrower over Fire Blast, and I know that it doesn't 2HKO Cryogonal then, but SR and damage from other pokemon during the game usual allow Nidoqueen to pull through.

    The metagame really doesn't have a place for Nidoqueen because it is just so strong at wall breaking and also being tanky in the first place that it is too centralizing for the Metagame. The biggest other problem is that you are basically forced to fodder a Pokemon if Nidoqueen can attack freely unless you have a Clefable or Lickilicky (Just thought I would mention Sdef Weezing isn't 2HKO'd after SR which I thought was interesting). The only other way to stop Nidoqueen is to outspeed and OHKO or 2HKO which was the overall method this month for dealing with it. In a offensive manner if you can get damage on it before like Hazards and CB U-Turn from Scyther you can KO it later with a faster pokemon. Forcing the Earth Power or T-Bolt to switch to a pokemon that is immune can work but that is always high risk, which sums up why I think it has no place because if you don't pack a Clefable you are forced to play so carefully around it.

    The most interesting part about all this is that the easiest way to counter Nidoqueen is to outspeed and OHKO or 2HKO which forced most teams to run more offensively which I personally think is a step in the right direction. Stall teams are not only annoying but are just so outright overpowered unless you pack at least 2 of the 4 best coverage sweepers in RU (Nidoqueen, Electivire, Magmortar, and Archeops) to get rid of the cores. So I like how it made it all a bit more offensive but I still feel that it holds no place because the sweeping and wall breaking potential is just too high. Bye Bye Nidoqueen it was fun while it lasted. ;(
  6. DittoCrow

    DittoCrow
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    Nidoqueen is no doubt the most powerful Pokemon in the tier, and it has a massive impact on RU playstyles as a whole. There are only a select few good Pokemon that can switch into Nidoqueen, which, in my opinion, is detrimental to the variety of teams. For example, on stall, most of the standard Pokemon you would find on a stall team would not be a counter to Nidoqueen, causing you to take up a team slot for one Pokemon; this makes it nearly impossible to make a solid stall team with all of the necessary components. On offensive teams, one must rely on heavy prediction to get past Nidoqueen, as almost every offensive Pokemon gets 2HKOed by one of Nidoqueen's awesome moves. I wouldn't want to ban Nidoqueen because "it makes building stall hard," Nidoqueen just restricts teambuilding too much as a whole which harms the metagame in a sense.

    Nidoqueen's bulk and inability to be easily worn down by residual damage is probably the biggest reason why someone would consider Nidoqueen to be broken. Nidoqueen's 90 / 87 / 85 defenses are something that should not be overlooked; normally, when a Pokemon relies heavily on prediction, one mistake can cost that Pokemon its life. With Nidoqueen, that is not the case. There are less than 15 Pokemon in the tier that can outspeed and OHKO Nidoqueen, which makes it easier for Nidoqueen to play risky. Even if it makes a mistake and loses, let's say, 70% of its HP, the lack of Life Orb recoil and resistance to Stealth Rock allow Nidoqueen to continue attacking. If it happens to get a free switch into a slower Pokemon, which is not as hard as it seems because of Nidoqueen's good typing, Nidoqueen can still do tons of damage to the opposing team. This somewhat forces players to run much more faster Pokemon than they usually do, so that they lower the risk of losing one or more Pokemon to Nidoqueen.

    All in all, Nidoqueen's lack of being locked into one move, difficulty to be worn down, and bulk which eases its prediction make Nidoqueen somewhat broken (still not sure if I think it's broken). All of these factors contribute to making the good RU teams limited in the viable options they have to choose from, and a Pokemon that does this makes me think that it is unfit for the metagame. However, as stated below, Nidoqueen will have a hard time making the right move, and there are a few Pokemon who don't always get OHKOed, so Nidoqueen will most likely not get more than two KOes versus an offensive-oriented team. I'm quite undecided on Nidoqueen—I think that it needs more testing to be honest.
  7. BattleStar

    BattleStar

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    I love Nidoqueen in RU. However it in my opinion is overpowered in coverage and sheer force(pun intended), it has counters some nonetheless. I came to realize that Nidoqueen is hard to stop if you try to play on the defensive side, bar Clefable which I find to be a solid counter though I can stop it with Haze Cyro. It is best to counter Nidoqueen if you play offensive against it.

    I don't know about others but if something outspeeds Nidoqueen it can KO it if easily if weakened. Nidoqueen really is not that fast so it being as fast as it can is critical. Nidoqueen is a pro at taking down defensive pokemon like Ferroseed and Tangrowth. This then puts more emphasis on Revenge Killers.

    The Choice Specs Typlosion set will always beable to KO Nidoqeen with Entry Hazards in place. Typlosion is common enough that it can poss a large enough threat for Nidoqueen.

    I have to be honest with you guys. I really want Nidoqueen to stay in RU. I though I am running a bunch of Calcs and not to many things can outright KO Nido. I will still continue though. The best offensive counter I found so far is CB Flare Blitzed Entei.It KOs Nidoqueen 100% of the time.
  8. Espo

    Espo

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    How is Entei a hard counter? It can't switch in except on Fire Blast. Your best bet is Misdreavus as most Nidoqueens forgo Shadow Ball.
  9. blarajan

    blarajan i was born under the same star as shakeitup
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    Nidoqueen @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sheer Force
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 SDef
    Modest Nature
    - Earth Power
    - Sludge Wave
    - Thunderbolt
    - Fire Blast / Focus Blast

    That is indeed 100% the best set Nidoqueen can run. I personally like Focus Blast much more than Fire Blast, because Earth Power 2HKOes Ferroseed and Escavalier anyways, while Focus Blast does more damage to both Clefable and Munchlax. Focus Blast also hits Cryogonal just as hard. That's just personal preference, though. Stealth Rock, however, does NOT deserve a spot on Nidoqueen. Use something else for Stealth Rock.

    On that note, I don't personally think Nidoqueen is broken in the current RU metagame. What, in my opinion, primarily holds it back is its middling Speed. Right now we are discussing a base 76 Speed Pokemon that must use a neutral nature in order to be nearly as effective as she is, so in essence we are discussing to ban or not to ban on a Pokemon with 251 Speed. For reference, that speed ties with a max Speed + nature base 65 Pokemon. That means, nearly every offensive Pokemon in the tier outruns it, and it is fairly easy to ev to reach it on slower Pokemon, such as Smeargle and Magneton. It is even possible to have Poliwrath and Lanturn outrun Nidoqueen, but obviously that is inadvisable. Nidoqueen does raise the Speed barrier, which means an offensive Pokemon definitely wants to outrun it—however, the sheer amount of Pokemon that do outrun it means...it has that many checks. To be exact, there are 35 Pokemon in RU (including Smeargle and Magneton) that outrun Nidoqueen. Of these 35, 17 can 2HKO. Of these 35, 10 can OHKO. Of the list that can 2HKO, 5 can actually OHKO with a specific set. That means, in the tier alone, excluding NU Pokemon usable in RU and able to fall under those categories (such as Gardevoir, Cinccino, Swellow, Tauros, Sawsbuck, and Braviary), there are 27 individual, unboosted checks to Nidoqueen. By having just one of these Pokemon, you have checked Nidoqueen. Granted, it's just a check, and none of these Pokemon but Uxie and Cryogonal can switch in bar resisted moves.

    is thus incorrect, as it is nearly impossible not to check Nidoqueen on a team.

    is also incorrect, as a 252 HP / 84 SpD avoids the 2HKO by Sludge Wave after Stealth Rock with Leftovers. A spread of 252 HP / 156 SpD Calm avoids the 2HKO by Sludge Wave after Stealth Rock without Leftovers. It is very possible to ev Uxie in a way that keeps it both bulky, faster than Nidoqueen, an excellent Nidoqueen check and switch-in, and a fantastic pivot for the rest of the metagame.

    What I believe is people assume doom's day when discussing Nidoqueen. The crux of the arguments the proponents of broken are screaming are Nidoqueen's wallbreaking potential, but all assume the user of Nidoqueen is predicting correctly 100% of the time. Moltres can't check or switch in ever for the same reason, even though it is immune to Earth Power, resists Fire Blast, and can comfortably survive Sludge Wave. Now Lilligant fails to switch in ever because Sludge Wave OHKOes, even though it resists Earth Power and Thunderbolt. Cryogonal can't because of Fire Blast, regardless of it being immune to Earth Power and taking Thunderbolt and Sludge Wave comfortably. This trend extends to nearly every one of the offensive checks I have listed.

    For the reasons I stated above, I have to disagree with these two statements. Nidoqueen as a Pokemon definitely relies on prediction—and a lot of it. If it lets something switch in, due to its low Speed, Nidoqueen will frequently be forced out. There are a variety of Pokemon that can switch into Sludge Wave (Kabutops, Uxie, Drapion, Scolipede, Aerodactyl) , or Earth Power (Moltres, Lilligant, Slowking, Braviary, Mandibuzz, Scyther, Sceptile, Rotom-C), or Thunderbolt (Lilligant, Sceptile, Rotom-C, Manectric, Druddigon), or Fire Blast (Slowking, Moltres, Entei, Magmortar, Typhlosion, Aerodactyl) or whatever you have to use at the time. Nidoqueen can't just spam Sludge Wave as easily as DittoCrow is suggesting. Sludge Wave <> Win. Under common scenarios, Nidoqueen has to either use super effective move against opponent that is in against it, or predict the switch and use a different super effective move against that—suggesting that you don't need prediction to use Nidoqueen correctly is an insult to the game. Sludge Wave with its shoddy coverage can be switched into, and pivot switched out of, and frankly just using Sludge Wave against every Pokemon in front of you will not OHKO everything, forcing Nidoqueen to take a huge hit for using it. Either risk the STAB move and the hit that'll ensue, use the auxillary coverage move for super effective damage, or predict the incoming switch in. There are a variety of battle conditions when using Nidoqueen that force the need to predict.

    What people seem to want it a foolproof answer to Nidoqueen—something that can switch in on every move all the time. Requiring a hard counter 100% of the time under all situations is a bit ridiculous in my opinion. Let's extend this logic to other Pokemon, such as Life Orb Magmortar. Considering a set of: Fire Blast / Thunderbolt / Earthquake / Hidden Power Grass, what exactly can “switch in on every move and avoid a 2HKO” bar Munchlax? Clefable? 2HKOed by Fire Blast. Lanturn? 2HKOed by min Earthquake. Slowking? Thunderbolt. Moltres? Thunderbolt. A hard counter for this set is missing (aside from the shit Munchlax that all proponents of banning Nidoqueen are willing to dismiss)—should we ban this under the same premise? What about Sceptile? Can anything “straight up counter” Sceptile? Unlike Nidoqueen, Sceptile actually uses multiple sets, and is much faster. You can't know for sure what you're switching in at the time. Should Flying Gem Archeops with Acrobatics / Stone Edge / Earth Power / U-Turn be banned for not having any straight up counters asides from the easily worn down Steelix (who with no recovery “is just as unreliable as Uxie” if adopting DittoCrow's logic)? I recognize that these Pokemon are different from Nidoqueen, and are significantly less durable. But under the premise that “if I cannot hard counter it, it is broken” as many users want to scream, these Pokemon should be banned under the same premise. I disagree entirely with that premise—if a hard counter does not really exist (even though some do for Nidoqueen, just dismissed due to being shit...) but the Pokemon is easily checked (as Nidoqueen is, and as Magmortar, Sceptile, and Archeops all are)...it's not broken in my opinion.

    Under the above premise, that it cannot be straight up countered, and accordingly must be checked, many users have been suggesting that Nidoqueen makes stall unviable in this metagame.

    I don't particularly believe that it is the fault of Nidoqueen that defensive teams aren't as viable. I believe that's the fault of the metagame itself.

    DittoCrow disagrees, so let's use his stall team as an example.

    Calculations (open)

    252 +1 SpAtk Life Orb Lilligant Hidden Power Fire vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Steelix (+SpDef) : 70.06% - 82.49% (2 hits to KO)

    252 +1 SpAtk Life Orb Lilligant Giga Drain vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Eviolite Mismagius: 41.98% - 49.38% (3 hits to KO)

    252 +1 SpAtk Life Orb Lilligant Giga Drain vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Poliwrath: 121.09% - 142.97% (Guaranteed OHKO)

    252 +1 SpAtk Life Orb Lilligant Hidden Power Fire vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Eviolite Roselia (+SpDef) : 48.68% - 57.24% (2-3 hits to KO)

    252 +1 SpAtk Life Orb Lilligant Giga Drain vs 248 HP/116 SpDef Slowking (+SpDef) : 82.44% - 96.95% (2 hits to KO)

    252 +1 SpAtk Life Orb Lilligant Hidden Power Fire vs 248 HP/92 SpDef Cryogonal (+SpDef) : 50.73% - 59.48% (2 hits to KO)


    What do we see here? We see that Sleep Powder / Quiver Dance / Giga Drain / HP Fire Lilligant @ Life Orb OHKOes or 2HKOes every single Pokemon on his team at +1 after Stealth Rock. The only Pokemon that it does not OHKO that poses a threat is Cryogonal—who gets slept. Lilligant finds set up opportunities on Mismagius, a sleeping Poliwrath (who only has a 30% chance to get a Sleep Talk Circle Throw to hit), and Slowking. Expert Belt Magmortar plays similar games against this team, and it doesn't even need to set up! Kabutops has a field day, as this stall team CANNOT keep hazards up against Kabutops. At +2, Kabutops OHKOes Misdreavus after Stealth Rock 100% of the time (252 +2 Atk Life Orb Kabutops (+Atk) Stone Edge vs 252 HP/240 Def Eviolite Misdreavus (+Def) : 87.96% - 103.09% (25% chance to OHKO). What do you? Let Kabutops spin on you 100% of the time and go to Poliwrath, or let your spin blocker get killed off? Life Orb Electivire gives the team a lot of problems, as does Manectric, who can Volt Switch out of Cryogonal to wear it down. The point is, even this team, which peaked at number 1 in the metagame it was in, had problems dealing with a competent offensive team, as it could easily take hazards off with Kabutops, and threaten it with a variety of strong hitting Pokemon with good coverage. With the transition to the BW2 metagame, when Moltres got Hurricane, Nidoqueen dropped down, and the access to pinch berries, the metagame just naturally became more offensive. When Stall had problems before (and a ton, so while the team DC / SV made is a fantastic team, it still had problems with offense), there are even more problems now. Nidoqueen is not making Stall unviable. The offensive nature of the RU metagame, the sheer power of all of the wall breakers, hard hitters, and set-up Pokemon, and Stall's inability to keep hazards up against the most common spinner Kabutops, are what makes Stall less than viable in this metagame. Teams are just naturally more offensive, with bulky offensive / balanced teams the best style hands down.

    Finally, people are assuming individuals who slap on Spiritomb and Pursuit shit, or can double switch around its checks or whatever, does not constitute to Nidoqueen being broken. Because a Pokemon's checks can be beaten by other Pokemon, thus letting Nidoqueen excel is the nature of playing Pokemon. To win a game, you're SUPPOSED to wear down and take out what's checking your main sweeper or whatever, by any means necessary. The existence of Pursuit support does not affect Nidoqueen as a Pokemon. Having good partners <> being broken. Else every famous duo pretty much (Moltres / Kabutops, Tangrowth / Slowking, etc) are on the chopping block.

    And from a playing perspective, I have played hundreds of games this metagame. I have used Nidoqueen on some teams, and have not used it on even more. Some games, I didn't even get to use Nidoqueen, because I didn't have the opportunity to (against some offensive teams), and only got to use it as fodder. The same has happened to me. I have never swept teams before (aside from badly made ones) only using Nidoqueen, nor has a Nidoqueen ever swept me. It is a threat to take into consideration, and a big one at that. I'm concerned that the users scared of Nidoqueen are just scared of adapting to a more offensively inclined metagame, and are voting ban because they don't like dealing with that aspect of the metagame. I have never had a problem checking or handling Nidoqueen--I just couldn't use six Pokemon slower than it. It's a perfectly fine part of the metagame.

    In conclusion, I do not think Nidoqueen is broken in the current metagame. I believe its middling speed, which makes it occasionally even dead weight against offensive teams, the sheer amount of checks that exist for it, its weaknesses to Ground-, Water-, Psychic-, and Ice-type attacks, and the need for a good amount of prediction to use it make it more than balanced to use. I do not believe Nidoqueen not having a viable hard counter makes it broken, nor do I believe Nidoqueen by itself prevents stall from being usable.

    edit: jesus fuck this post took like two hours
  10. Bigblue

    Bigblue

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    Just going to say about how my Sub set can force switches then sub and proceed to throw out moves until something with U-Turn breaks it or Clef or Lickilicky appears or you can take out a huge chunk of the opponents pokemon. (Unless it happens to be uxie). So the comments I made were in correlation the how my set works (Which doesn't carry sludge wave) but you still state some good points.
  11. complete legitimacy

    complete legitimacy Honko's Happy Funtime With Men
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    I completely agree with blarajan. He brought up a lot of good points as to why Nidoqueen shouldn't be banned, and I'll reinforce them with some of my own points too. There are a few things about Nidoqueen that causes people to think it's broken; I'm not saying these points are false, it's just that it's not as simple as it seems. People always talk about how Nidoqueen has no counters, how it makes stall unviable, how it sweeps entire teams with ease. I can apply a lot of this from my own personal experience, and not just against some ladder randoms. I've played around Nidoqueen countless times and it hardly ever sweeps me (hax), and I run defensive teams.

    The first point that everyone who plays defensively like me brings up is that Nidoqueen has no counters. This isn't entirely true, since Nidoqueen does have counters, it just has few that are used by top players. Clefable and Uxie are the two best counters to it, and while Uxie lacks recovery, it actually has good synergy with Clefable, making for a foolproof answer to Nidoqueen. But that's not my main point. The main point of all this is that Nidoqueen can be played around, as like blarajan said, whenever people talk about Nidoqueen, they assume that the person using Nidoqueen is predicting correctly every time. This is not the case. 95% of the time, a good player will use Sludge Wave, and then a super effective move. But what if you have a Steel-type in? Steelix and Ferroseed are both commonly found on defensive teams, and they both pair exceptionally well with Slowking. Nidoqueen has trouble breaking this core because of the imunity to Sludge Wave. Congratulations, you just checked Nidoqueen pretty well by using an already effective defensive core. Cryogonal also checks Nidoqueen fairly efficiently, since it is immune to Earth Power, and outspeeds it with minimal investment. Congratulations, you just checked Nidoqueen by using the best spinner in the metagame. Wanna use Choice Band Spiritomb, which resists Sludge Wave and isn't OHKOed by Earth Power? Yeah sure, use one of the best spinblockers and Pursuit users in the metagame. Oh wait, you just checked Nidoqueen! Once again, you're telling me you want to use a four to five Pokemon defensive core with multiple resistances to Fire, Poison, Electric, and Ground. Oh wait, that's stall, and it can deal with Nidoqueen.

    I've been using multiple defensively-based teams throughout the month, and they all deal with Nidoqueen pretty efficiently. The key thing to remember here is, Nidoqueen doesn't OHKO every wall in the metagame, it 2HKOes. This is its major breaking point. While I'll admit that playing more defensively isn't as good as it's been in the past because of Nidoqueen, it's far from unviable. I'd like to compare Nidoqueen to Magmortar for a second. What makes them so different? In theory, nothing counters either of them except for a few niche Pokemon. They both give stall a headache, but they're kinda slow and aren't as useful against offense. Of course, the key differences are that Nidoqueen isn't nearly as susceptible to hazards, and that it's immune to the two most common statuses, Toxic and Thunder Wave. But still, it's not like stall doesn't carry super effective moves against it. Ice Beam Cryogonal, Earthquake Tangrowth, Scald Slowking, Scald Poliwrath, Earthquake Steelix, and others ensure that Nidoqueen doesn't switch in for free, and almost all of them are on Foundations. I bet if DittoCrow or SilentVerse used the team when faced with Nidoqueen, they would still be able to beat it most of the time. Misdreavus resists Sludge Wave and is immune to Earth Power, and could wear it down with Will-O-Wisp and Pain Split. If any stall team is capable of defeating Nidoqueen, it's Foundations, and that's why I think it's kinda funny that both SV and DC want it banned (I know SV hasn't posted in this thread yet but I know his opinion from on IRC). I'm not mocking or flaming them though; I still respect their opinions.

    A lot of Pokemon are hard to directly counter, but they're all easy to check too. Nidoqueen is no exception. Moltres, Magmortar, Sceptile, Tangrowth, Slowking; the list goes on and on. Are any of these Pokemon broken? Of course not. So once again, what makes Nidoqueen different. It's certainly a dominating force in the metagame, but every metagame has a dominating force. You have to draw the line between banning something inherently broken, or just banning the next best thing. People seem to be confused about this next statement; has Nidoqueen changed the RU metagame? Most certainly. But is it breaking the metagame? I don't think so.

    Gothitelle counters it, don't ban Nidoqueen.
  12. blarajan

    blarajan i was born under the same star as shakeitup
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    One thing I've noticed from most of the people supporting ban is a fear of and disdain for adaptation to the new metagame. You've listed multiple counters (that you dislike). There is an incredible amount of checks. Metagame shifts require changing your old teams up. This round isn't even just a simple metagame shift. This round included the changes from an entirely new game AND drop downs. Pokemon got new moves, pinch berries were released, shit fell down, this meta is different than before, and this resonates with all of the tiers. You have to adapt to these changes to play the game. Because your older teams don't work as well, and because there are more threats (all offensive) to handle, Stall and defensive playing WILL take a drop, and it's not all because of Nidoqueen. It's because this is an entirely new metagame for an entirely different game.
  13. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf meh
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    For the record I agree with blarajan in the entirety, particularly on the point about massive metagame shifts requiring adaptation.
  14. Omicron

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    This paragraph just makes me lol. There are so many things wrong with what you said here. Poliwrath is OHKOed by Thunderbolt, Roselia is 2HKOed by Fire Blast / Flamethrower, Sandslash is nearly OHKOed by Earth Power, and with Spikes it most certainly is, and 0 Atk Sandslash fails to KO Nidoqueen with Earthquake even with Stealth Rock on the field. Bouffalant can't switch in without the fear of being 2HKOed, Crawdaunt is outsped and OHKOed by Thunderbolt, Hariyama can't do shit to Nidoqueen (lol Force Palm? Really?), Aggron is outsped and OHKOed, Tangrowth is outsped and OHKOed, Druddigon is 2HKOed by Sludge Wave, Crustle is a piece of shit and is 2HKOed by Earth Power (Sturdy), and OHKOed if SR is up, Spiritomb doesn't 2HKO without Choice Band, and is easily 2HKOed in return (not to mention choiced Sucker Punch is just really shitty), Quagsire is easily 2HKOed by Earth Power, and fails to OHKO without some Attack investment, Slowking is 2HKOed by Sludge Wave + Thunderbolt with SR up, Cofagrigus is 2HKOed by Earth Power while it fails to even 2HKO with unboosted Shadow Ball, and cannot OHKO with +2 Shadow Ball, either way, Nidoqueen wins against Cofagrigus, Escavalier gets roasted by Fire Blast, as does Ferroseed. My point, and I think DittoCrow's point as well, is that none of these Pokemon can safely switch into Nidoqueen, much less set up on them. Nidoqueen also happens to be faster than ALL of them, meaning that they can indeed be 2HKOed without a problem.
  15. Double01

    Double01 Hate it or love it the under dog's on top

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    @Omicron I think (correct me if I'm wrong) blarajan was just trying to say that nidoqueen will have tons of trouble switching into those threats while in danger of being severly crippled. He is not trying to saythat these mons can beat nidoqueen rather nidoqueen will have limited opportunities to switch.
  16. blarajan

    blarajan i was born under the same star as shakeitup
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    I'm not saying those are good answers to Nidoqueen lol. Just that he was listing them as if they can't do jack shit and are instantly impossible to use when Nidoqueen is there. If you noticed from my original post, I did not list any of these Pokemon as actual checks to Nidoqueen. He listed all of them, so I was merely stating that they aren't entirely useless once Nidoqueen's involved. That's all. There isn't a single thing wrong with what I said, as I didn't extend those statements past: These Pokemon are not inherently disadvantaged by the existence of Nidoqueen, and that Nidoqueen has issues switching into them as well.

    edit: Yeah what Double01 said
  17. Ciele

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    Even good players can play terribly and in this case they certainly could've done better. Switching out Rotom-C into an Uxie that is certain to lose, and then after Uxie has lost, sending out the same Rotom-C again just to die is not exactly top level thinking. They could've just switched to Nidoqueen on the Sludge Wave and then switched to Uxie on the predicted Earth Power.

    Also, the team is somewhat flawed, most notably using an Uxie which is slower than Nidoqueen, when its main purpose is to check it. Primeape is also a pretty terrible Pokemon that shouldn't be getting used.

    One final thought is that +1 Lilligant losing isn't a big deal, considering the fact Nidoqueen does have a 95 BP STAB move that is boosted by Sheer Force to use against it.
  18. jas61292

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    Ok, so, I am happy to say that, for the first time probably since round 1, I feel like I have actually played enough of RU to really have a valid opinion of an issue like this. And in fact, I think not having played a lot for so long actually gives me a unique perspective on this newly shaken up metagame. I'm not coming in here with a mental picture of what RU should be. I only know how it currently is. And I'll be honest, I don't Nidoqueen as a broken Pokemon at all. I was thinking of making a long post on all the reasons why Nidoqueen is not too strong for this metagame, but I really feel that blarajan summarized my opinion.

    So, instead, I'll just say this: really, when you look at it, Nidoqueen is strong, but not as strong as many other Pokemon in the tier. It is bulky for an offensive mon, but can still be easily KOd by almost any Pokemon with a decent attacking stat. And it is slow for an offensive Pokemon. As mentioned multiple times, it need to go Modest to get the power it needs, and 251 Speed is just lackluster. The only things that even make this a discussion is the coverage it gets and the fact that it gets recoil-less Life Orb. As mentioned, the coverage, while amazing, is coming off only an above average attacking stat, and thus requires a ton of prediction to be useful, even more so due to that middling speed. And I believe this is enough to prevent it from being too good for the tier. So unless the lack of recoil is that big a deal, I really can't see what is broken about this thing.

    It may have been a big metagame change for some of you this time around, but coming in with no expectations of what it should be, I feel that this tier is still incredibly balanced, and that Nidoqueen is simply a cool addition to a changing metagame.
  19. blarajan

    blarajan i was born under the same star as shakeitup
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    Fuck. I'm incredibly sorry regarding Uxie's spreads. I've typo'd the fuck out of them and just have confused myself.

    252 HP / 84 SpD (neutral): 252 SpAtk Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen (+SpAtk) Sludge Wave vs 252 HP/84 SpDef Uxie: 41.81% - 49.44% (3 hits to KO) <== Never 2HKOed at full health by Sludge Wave without Stealth Rock / Leftovers

    252 HP / 40 SpD Calm: 252 SpAtk Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen (+SpAtk) Sludge Wave vs 252 HP/40 SpDef Uxie (+SpDef) : 39.27% - 46.61% (3 hits to KO) <== Never 2HKOed by Sludge Wave after Stealth Rock with Leftovers

    252 HP / 116 SpD Calm: 252 SpAtk Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen (+SpAtk) Sludge Wave vs 252 HP/120 SpDef Uxie (+SpDef) : 37.29% - 44.07% (3 hits to KO) <== Never 2HKOed by Sludge Wave after Stealth Rock without Leftovers

    I apologize for the confusion regarding the spreads I had posted--I was posting them from memory, and I'm awful at remembering spreads. Those are the actual benchmark spreads for avoiding the 2HKO, however you want. In each one, you have enough EVs to outspeed Nidoqueen. That was my bad there.

    These sets do increase their special bulk to check Nidoqueen. Psychic will 2HKO Nidoqueen with min, and I don't like Psyshock on min Uxie...too weak. Psyshock generally 2HKOes though if you're into that sort of thing, and always after Stealth Rock. Uxie can just use the standard Stealth Rock / Psychic / U-Turn / Filler with this spread and it turns out fine. I've been experimenting with the fourth spot, and really enjoy using either Thunder Wave or Trick Room (in case something gets really fast / might have Lum Berry, and I need Uxie to check it, or to screw with opposing Trick Room teams). I also made the last spread, the 252 HP / 116 SpD Calm set, specifically to play around with ChestoResto Uxie, which actually has worked phenomenally, and can check Nidoqueen even better if it has to. That set would just be Stealth Rock / Psychic / U-Turn / Rest @ Chesto Berry. To be honest, Uxie doesn't really DO much in general. It sets up Stealth Rock, cripples something with Thunder Wave if you're into that, and just acts as a bulky pivot. Making it a bit specially bulky doesn't really detract from its purpose.
  20. Ciele

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    Rotom-C being at -2 is certainly something that should've been included in the log, as it played a significant role in the battle.

    Anyway, only having one Nidoqueen check in itself makes it a bad team. I know that it's not the easiest thing in the world to check, but considering that it is arguably the best Pokemon in the tier, you'd think having more than one Pokemon in your team to check it (and as it turns out, the "check" that they chose happens to lose 1v1) would be pretty much essential. I also gave a way around it that you seem to have ignored (switching to Nidoqueen to take the Sludge Wave and then switching in Uxie on the Earth Power).

    As for Primeape, I see very few good players using it and that is no suprise. 105 base attack without a positive nature or a boosting item is certainly nothing to write home about, especially since it only has one STAB move that is easily walled by a load of the most common Pokemon (Cofag, Slowking, Tangrowth, Nidoqueen, etc) and it has a lack of coverage options to make things worse. I could go on, but this is about Nidoqueen and not Primeape =)
  21. /B/utterfree

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    There are better Fighting-types to run, why are you opting to use Primeape when you could be using Hitmonlee or Gallade instead and standing a better chance against Nidoqueen, even if it's still a tenuous chance?

    That said, I honestly think Nidoqueen is broken. I agree with the arguments that Nidoqueen ultimately makes running Stall not quite as effective, because she really doesn't help Stall's increasingly-difficult times. You actually have to change Uxie's EVs to "check" her, and most of her other checks are inefficient such that you need more than one.

    First of all, while she's no Durant, Nidoqueen's Speed is sufficient enough to make a good chunk of the tier her bitch. Again, if her Speed's not enough, you could always give her a Timid nature and then she laughs at more Pokes who run a neutral nature.

    As DittoCrow pointed out, a majority the 10 Pokemon who can OHKO need to run sets that are liabilities outside of checking Nidoqueen. Some of her "2HKO checks" must do the same (*cough*Uxie*cough*), compromising their best sets to have a chance, if at all, of halting Nidoqueen's sweep.

    I used the very main set she has and I was too disgusted by its overpoweredness against my opponents such that I scrapped the entire team dedicated to her, since at least half of the team wasn't doing anything because Nidoqueen already does a wonderful job breaking RU on its own. Half the time, not even her "checks" stopped her sweep entirely. I felt dishonoured by using such a heinously overpowered 'mon in RU, and I refuse to use her because she genuinely is that broken.

    I know I always make teams dedicated to various Pokemon with various results, but a Nidoqueen team doesn't even need half of its team to do the job that Nidoqueen can do. I feel and will continue to feel that Nidoqueen makes RU more volatile than it already is.

    Ban Nidoqueen.

    I dread the impact Nidoqueen already has in RU, and I know for a fact I am also guilty of using her.
    I'm sorry for helping RU be more broken than it already is.

    Oh, and I use the already-identified-on-this-thread main set that runs all 4 attacks. Just so you all know. Only difference is I ran Timid.
  22. DestinyUnknown

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    I couldn't disagree more with this. Specially on a generation like BW where the threats on every tier are much more powerful than they were on previous generations. Offensive teams aren't less reliable (we're talking about actually good teams aren't we?), they are just different than defensive teams in how they work. In fact, Offense has an advantage over stall in that if they don't have a 100% counter to an X threat (let's say it's some kind of obscure pokemon not used on the tier for some reason, though it can be simply that you lose your Feraligatr counter and Feraligatr KOs the rest of the team), Offense can usually play around it via Revenge Killers or Priority, while if some pokemon isn't countered by a defensive team, it's usually an automatic lose.

    I wouldn't also say ''Stall / Balanced is more stable than Offense in tournaments'' because it's not true either. While on the ladder you can usually win easily with standard, autopilot stall teams, when playing against good players on tournaments, it's highly likely you're going to lose with playing just a ''mindless'' stall team, you actually have to play and predict well (and control the game too).

    I'm not sure if you have played other tiers in BW (I'm pretty sure the answer is yes), but in every of them there is stuff that don't have an ''straight up'' defensive counter or are very difficult to counter (think about stuff like Terrakion, Kingdra, Nidoking or Gorebyss on their respective tiers), because they are very powerful or / and have a very good movepool. Of course, this threats make stall teams a little more difficult to play with, but they are by no means bannable just because they force defensive teams to have a check / way to handle them. If the excuse of ''Nidoqueen forces me to run 1 foolproof counter (ie Clefable) or 2 checks (Slowking, Cryogonal) to avoid my stall team being wrecked ---> BAN BAN BAN'' is something you really think it's argument to ban something, please think about it again please. It's obvious that when you use a stall team, you are risking being weak to some pokemon because it's impossible to straight up cover every threat in the game (yes, even in lower tiers) because if it was that easy to use and win with Stall, then Offensive teams would be unviable. I'm also iffy that you say ''Offensive teams are unreliable and risky'' but you're assuming the Nidoqueen user is predicting correctly 100% of the time. And don't get me started about ''Sludge Wave is very easy to spam'' because almost every Defensive pokemon on the tier (except for... Tangrowth??) can take a Sludge Wave and retaliate back.

    Those bolded parts seem very biased to me. I don't think that the argument of ''my favourite team doesn't work because a new threat arrived to the tier'' is reason to ban a pokemon. And all playstyles are viable, it's simply that you have to prepare for a new threat and just can't run the same as before on your team.
  23. Ningildo

    Ningildo

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    Uh, did you even read the other sides argument when posting?
    Stall (as much as I hate to say it) is still viable. I hate rehashing, but Nidoqueen, like all pokemon with good coverage, still has to predict. What if the pokemon in is weak to a move that a possible switch in is resistant to? What if the move that hits the switch in SE is resisted by the current one out? These situations happen all the time to stall and ignoring that those have a chance to favor you is dumb.

    What I don't get is when people are getting mad that something similar to Nidoking, who does the EXACT same thing in UU with even higher Special Attack and Speed (with a lack of Chansey no less), is in RU. Porygon2 is the only thing that can switch in after SR and take two hits...once. I don't see it banned. But ok, despite very, very similar situations, I should stop with these comparisons before I get blamed for getting of topic

    And the moment I read "Timid", I kind of laughed on the inside. Modest is the main nature for a reason. Timid is too weak and you'll miss out on KO's like Slowking and the like. Saying you can wear down Slowking with SR is moot and I think you know why.

    Ok, I get Nidoqueen is bulky, and can hit HARD. Denying that is retarded.
    But you can't deny that it can usually only switch in on double switches to the pokemon it outpaces. See, most of these can hit nidoqueen on the switch, be it SE or with sheer power. Now if it take those hits, recover them off somehow and hit as hard as it does, then I'd be pissed too. But it doesn't, so...you can wear it down...

    tl;dr Basically what blara, c_l and all said.
  24. SilentVerse

    SilentVerse Into the New World
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    I'm actually pretty undecided on Nidoqueen at the moment. If you'd asked me two weeks ago I would've easily said that Nidoqueen was broken and should be banned, but now I'm not so sure. However, I'm still leaning towards banning it. Feel free to try to change my mind though!

    I'm not going to really elaborate on Nidoqueen's excellent coverage, since that's already been discussed a lot in this thread, and I agree that while Nidoqueen has fantastic coverage, it can be played around. I would like to add however, that Nidoqueen's coverage is also so good that it usually has at least two moves it can use to remove a threat, which can make predicting against it a bit harder too. For example, in the log that DittoCrow posted, he could have alternatively used Fire Blast to get a sure OHKO on Rotom-C, which would also hit both Uxie and Nidoqueen hard.

    There's something that I feel hasn't been really stressed that much about Nidoqueen though; the fact that it's so difficult to wear down with residual damage. Nidoqueen's resistance to Stealth Rock, immunity to Thunder Wave and Toxic, and the fact that it doesn't take Life Orb recoil, coupled with its excellent bulk, is, in my opinion, why it's more of an issue for defensive teams than other wallbreakers. I will say right now that I never had an issue with Life Orb Magmortar with Foundations, since between Life Orb recoil, Stealth Rock, and Spikes, it was easy enough to outstall with good play. Expert Belt Magmortar, however, was a whole different story since it didn't take Life Orb recoil. Nidoqueen is so good against defensive teams for similar reasons as Expert Belt Magmortar, but Nidoqueen is even better. Since it doesn't take Life Orb recoil, is immune to Toxic, and is resistant to Stealth Rock, defensive teams have a difficult time wearing it down with conventional means like setting up Stealth Rock, status, or just playing around it until it dies from Life Orb recoil. To KO Nidoqueen, you can't just stall it out; you have to directly attack it, and, due to it's bulk, it's probably going to survive even a super effective STAB attack from your walls. What's even worse is that if Nidoqueen isn't outright KO'd, it's still able to pose a significant threat, once again due to its resistance to Stealth Rock and immunity to Life Orb recoil. To put it into perspective, a 30% Life Orb Magmortar can only switch into Stealth Rock once, and attack once before dying. A 30% Life Orb Nidoqueen, on the other hand, can switch into Stealth Rock 4-5 times before dying, and can attack as much as it wants as long as it's in. It's just so much better than other wallbreakers because of those things.

    I also feel that people are underestimating Nidoqueen's base 76 Speed. Yes, it's underwhelming against offensive teams, but against defensive teams, that's actually pretty damn fast. Almost all of RU's walls have speeds in the 5-70 base Speed range, which means that Nidoqueen outspeeds almost all of them. Even the walls that outspeed Nidoqueen naturally like Uxie and Mandibuzz have to use a ton of Speed EVs in order to do so, which greatly detracts from their defensive capabilities. Nidoqueen isn't really a liability against offensive teams either, even with it's awful Speed, as it's bulk generally allows it at least take a hit and hit back for a KO, though offensive teams can admittedly play around Nidoqueen much easier, so it won't always get a KO against them if they switch in an offensive Pokemon on a resist / immunity. Against defensively-inclined teams though, Nidoqueen usually just outspeeds the switch-in and will threaten to 2HKO almost everything that switches in, bar the hard counters that DittoCrow mentioned and Uxie.

    I just feel that the offensively-inclined metagame that Nidoqueen has played a big part in creating is unhealthy for the metagame. While defensive teams are not unviable, they are so much more difficult to use and make with Nidoqueen in the tier than offensive teams, who don't really have to worry about Nidoqueen as much as defensive teams. Yeah, Nidoqueen isn't the only reason for this offensive shift; the BW2 changes weren't the kindest to defensive teams in general, and stuff like Hurricane Moltres and Swords Dance Kabutops are also pretty bad for defensive teams, but imo Nidoqueen is a defensive team's worst nightmare at this point, and hopefully, banning it will at least make it so that offense isn't so much better than stall.
  25. jas61292

    jas61292 used substitute
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    Ok, so maybe I'm a bit biased, since I have never really been a big fan of defensive teams, but this way of thinking is really what I think is bad for any metagame. As has been pointed out, defensive teams are far from impossible, and while offensive teams are easier, I don't see why this is a problem. A pokemon being broken is very different from a Pokemon making certain team types harder to use, and favoring any one team type is shaping a metagame around personal preference rather than what is actually balanced.

    Nidoqueen does not make any team type impossible. It is not even that hard to play around. Harder than other offensive threats for a stall team? Sure, but can they deal with it? Sure. Yes, it makes things very different than they used to be, but, as you and many other people pointed out, so did everything that BW2 introduced. Different metagame does not mean that something must be broken.

    And, to be honest, the argument that frustrates me the most is the whole, "sure, offensive teams have little problem, but my stall team is too slow to beat it," thing. If your team has problems with a major threat, that is no ones fault but your own. Teams exist that can take care of it easily, and complaining that your favorite team can't do it when you can easily just change your team to do so is just being stupid. We shouldn't ban things because people don't like to adapt their team to a new game.
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