1. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  2. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!

Nidoqueen

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by alexwolf, Jul 15, 2012.

  1. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    6,338
    [​IMG]
    TanKing is my bitch!

    [Overview]

    <p>Nidoqueen is one of the most influential Pokemon in the RU tier. Her unparalleled power, perfect coverage, amazing ability, lack of Life Orb recoil, all in tandem with her good bulk and typing, makes her one of the best special attackers in the tier. When she's not ripping apart the entire opposition, Nidoqueen can set up Stealth Rock and support her teammates. That's not all, Nidoqueen is one of the best offensive users of the move—not only can she force many switches, but she can also 2HKO every spinner in the tier. Despite all of these advantages, Nidoqueen does have a major flaw: her mediocre Speed. Furthermore, her four common weaknesses make her easy to revenge kill. As long as you can overcome her flaws, Nidoqueen will always pull her weight by destroying defensive cores and setting up Stealth Rock.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Special Attacker
    move 1: Earth Power
    move 2: Fire Blast / Flamethrower
    move 3: Thunderbolt
    move 4: Sludge Wave / Stealth Rock
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Sheer Force
    nature: Modest
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This is Nidoqueen's most effective set. With maximum Special Attack investment, a Modest nature, Sheer Force, and a Life Orb, she has the equivalent of 461 Special Attack. This monstrous power coupled with her perfect neutral coverage means that with the right prediction, the majority of RU can be 2HKOed. Earth Power is her main STAB that destroys anything that does not resist it, while a Fire-type move is the best option to deal with Grass-, Bug-, Steel-, and Ice-types, such as Cryogonal, Escavalier, Rotom-C, and Ferroseed. Fire Blast is preferred for its greater power, but Flamethrower can be used for its perfect accuracy and higher PP. The next piece of Nidoqueen's impeccable coverage is Thunderbolt, which allows Nidoqueen to get past Water- and Flying-types, such as Slowking, Mandibuzz, Aerodactyl, and Moltres. Sludge Wave is useful as it eases prediction, 2HKOes Uxie (after Stealth Rock damage) and Mesprit, and provides decent neutral coverage. Furthermore, Nidoqueen can 2HKO most of her checks with Sludge Wave followed with a coverage move. For example, Slowking can be 2HKOed with a combination of Sludge Wave and Thunderbolt. Stealth Rock is also a good option to support Nidoqueen's team, as she will find many opportunities to set up on the many switches she forces.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Maximum Special Attack and a Modest nature is required to hit as hard as possible. Maximum Speed investment allows Nidoqueen to outspeed max Speed Absol and minimum Speed Cryogonal, while the remaining EVs are dumped into HP. A Timid nature can be used to outspeed many important Pokemon, such as max Speed base 80s, max Speed Jolly Smeargle, 156 Speed Klinklang, and max Speed Feraligatr. However, it is worth noting that the power loss is quite noticeable, turning several OHKOes and 2HKOes into 2HKOes and 3HKOes. Ice Beam hits Dragon-types very hard, OHKOing max HP Druddigon after Stealth Rock, Altaria and Fraxure unconditionally, and 2HKOing Dragonair. Focus Blast can be used to 2HKO Clefable and Munchlax, but its low accuracy makes it undesirable. Shadow Ball is the only move Nidoqueen learns that can 2HKO support Gardevoir and Misdreavus, however rare they may be, and also deals with Psychic-types, namely Uxie and Mesprit. Substitute is an option to ease prediction against offensive teams, and it works pretty well considering the amount of forced switches. Lastly, a bulkier spread can be used with 96 HP / 244 SpA / 168 Spe and a Modest nature, outspeeding max Speed Jolly Crawdaunt. With 96 HP EVs, Nidoqueen always survives a Fire Blast from Life Orb Moltres and Leaf Storm from Life Orb Sceptile and OHKOes back with Thunderbolt and Fire Blast, respectively.</p>

    <p>As with most offensive Pokemon, entry hazards are very helpful. Thanks to its ability to force switches and 2HKO every spinner in the tier, Nidoqueen is an excellent offensive pivot. Smeargle, Uxie, Accelgor, and Aerodactyl can all set up hazards and synergize well with Nidoqueen. Smeargle works well because it can use Explosion to bring Nidoqueen in safely. Uxie, Accelgor, and Aerodactyl have decent synergy with Nidoqueen, resisting one or more of her weaknesses. Partners that can handle the Pokemon that outspeed Nidoqueen are valuable. Slowking is a good example as it resists three of Nidoqueen's weaknesses, while Nidoqueen can take care of Electric-types that threaten Slowking. Aerodactyl is another great partner as it can take out the majority of Fire-types that force her out, while also revenge killing threats such as Sceptile, Rotom-C, Sigilyph, and Uxie.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Nidoqueen can run a defensive set with a Bold nature and an EV spread of 252 HP / 132 Def / 126 SpD. Earth Power, Fire Punch, Ice Beam, and Stealth Rock provide the highest level of utility and coverage, and the EV spread means she can check a decent number of threats, such as Manectric, Galvantula, Electivire, and Choice-locked Fighting-type attacks. A set utilizing a Choice Scarf can be used for its surprise factor, but other than that, she is outclassed as a Choice Scarf user by Pokemon with better Speed, power, and STAB moves. Lastly, Toxic Spikes can be used over Stealth Rock, but in a tier filled with Poison-types, particularly opposing Nidoqueen, you will rarely manage to keep them up for longer than a few turns. However, if you can remove opposing Poison-types from play, then Toxic Spikes can be very useful, affecting many dangerous Pokemon, such as Entei, Cofagrigus, and Sceptile.</p>

    [Check and Counters]

    <p>Nidoqueen only has a handful of counters, but plenty of checks. Clefable and Munchlax are the only true counters she has in RU, as aside from Focus Blast, they are not 2HKOed by any of her moves; in return they can wear her down with Seismic Toss and Body Slam, respectively. Lickilicky, Misdreavus, and Gardevoir can wall Nidoqueen and kill her with Body Slam, Shadow Ball, and Psychic, respectively. Slowking and Cryogonal can switch into half of Nidoqueen's moveset and deal great damage back, if not OHKO her. Other than that, anything that can switch into her attacks and hit her super effectively will do the trick. Moltres, Entei, Aerodactyl, Uxie, Mesprit, Sigilyph, Sceptile, Rotom-C, Gallade, and Kabutops are all great examples of this. Moltres can switch into Earth Power, Fire Blast, and Stealth Rock, and proceed to deal huge damage with Fire Blast, Entei can switch into Fire Blast, Thunderbolt, and Stealth Rock, and OHKO Nidoqueen with Flare Blitz, and Aerodactyl can switch into Earth Power, Fire Blast, Sludge Wave, and Stealth Rock, and threaten her with Earthquake. Uxie can switch into anything apart from Sludge Wave and 2HKO Nidoqueen with Psychic or Zen Headbutt, while Mesprit can threaten Nidoqueen with Psychic or Psyshock. Rotom-C can switch into anything bar Fire Blast and Sludge Wave and hit hard with Leaf Storm. Offensive Gallade can switch into any non-STAB move that Nidoqueen carries and OHKO back with Zen Headbutt. Finally, Kabutops can switch into Fire Blast, Sludge Wave, and Stealth Rock and threaten back with Aqua Jet or Waterfall.</p>
  2. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    6,338
    Added a defensive set. Opinions about it are wanted, so let the comments roll guys!
  3. lars

    lars

    Joined:
    May 17, 2011
    Messages:
    265
    Just throwing it out there... but... this isn't directly outclassed by anything and while it isn't the best Nidoqueen can do, it certainly should be able to pull it off (in theory).

    [SET]
    name: Choice Band
    move 1: Poison Jab
    move 2: Fire Punch/Crunch
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Rock Slide
    item: Choice Band
    ability: Sheer Force
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    with Sheer Force and CB, this nidoqueen actually out damages CB Muk's gunk shot when taking the .7 accuracy into the average (which is no small feat)

    with several physical moves being boosted by SF, access to EdgeQuake, and the ability to wreck some special walls coming into tank the special attacker, I think this set deserves a test, I can certainly see the argument for just LO over CB because you don't lose life with SF, but CB boosted EQ/Superpower might be enough to make it worth it.

    -other somewhat useful moves in the other Elemental Punches, Superpower, and pursuit

    some notable info
    CB crunch easily 2HKOs OTR Cofagrigus even after the negation of SF for the second move (3HKO on tanky Cof, although Pain Split and WoW could probably find away to work around it)

    resisting SR and absorbing T.Spikes is very useful for a Choice User. Handy resistances to bug, electric, fighting, and rock should allow it to be a pretty good pivot.

    At the very least I think Nidoqueen should have a physically oriented set because she actually has some very good physical moves.

    In fact, I'll probably be moving to CB Queen to fill CB Muk's former roll on some of my teams.


    Also
    on the second set is fire punch usually the better choice? Maybe Fire Blast should be slashed because it would hit most other things harder besides cryogonal and roselia

    Otherwise looks great, some might say T. Spikes is only AC material, but that's getting nit picky
  4. Espo

    Espo

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2012
    Messages:
    79
    Though Nidoqueen has a slightly higher attack stat compared to her special attack stat, she can hit harder Specially due to higher base moves and huge special movepool. Choice Band doesn't warrant a spot, IMO.
  5. lars

    lars

    Joined:
    May 17, 2011
    Messages:
    265
    I have no doubt that the special set is better, but nearly everything in RU has it's arguably best set and most Pokemon have several listed.

    CB Nidoqueen has its uses, especially against it's usual walls.

    For example:

    Munchlax comes in to wall you, phaze and rack up more hazard damage on your team.

    But wait! This is no earth power he is switching into, it's a CB boosted Superpower dishing out a certain OHKO...

    this allows your Typhlosion to sweep with impunity.

    I'm not saying this is only a lure, but (I can recheck and post calcs later) it can 2HKO nearly every wall with the appropriate move (EQ 2HKO on standard Steelix) and it is also faster than most of them too.

    I think a physical Nidoqueen (either CB, LO, or maybe even a Hone Claws) deserves at least a test and probably an analysis because even though the special set is better, maybe you already have enough special attackers on your team and need Nidoqueen's handy resistances (and very respectable physical coverage also).

    Gallade, Entei, Crawdant, Spiritomb, Kabutops, and Afro Bull are probably the best CB users in RU and none of them even close to outclass Nidoqueen (well maybe Gallade gets close offensively, but hardly the same resistances)
  6. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    6,338
    Physical attacking Nidoqueen doesn't seem viable to me, because special Nidoqueen can already 2hko the entire meta, so why bother with something worse?

    Just my opinion, waiting for some QC input...
  7. -Tsunami-

    -Tsunami- ¡YA HA!
    is a Smogon IRC AOPis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnusis a SPL Winneris a World Cup of Pokemon defending champion
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2009
    Messages:
    2,704
    Special Attacker set seems fine, although you should probably move Ice Beam to AC. Sludge Wave really helps, and if you're not using that, you should be using Stealth Rock. Ice Beam only hits Druddigon, who you 2HKO anyway (Ice Beam doesn't even OHKO without SR). Also, in the AC, mention how Ice Beam also OHKOs Golurk (both are pretty unpopular though, Druddigon being #52 and Golurk being #62 in usage stats).

    CB set that lars brought up is pretty useless since Nidoqueen's high-powered special attacks makes it a much better option, especially since most special walls are 2HKOd.

    EDIT: Also, agreeing with Omicron on defensive Nidoqueen for all the reasons he stated. Also, I discussed with you on IRC about how bad it is :p
  8. Omicron

    Omicron
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    3,042
    Yea, I'm gonna have to say no to the defensive set. There's really no point in using Nidoqueen if you're going to go defensive, and even with it's lovely resistances and decent defenses, it still gets destroyed by the big powerhouses such as Moltres and friends. I also agree with moving Ice Beam to the AC. The targets that it hits are fairly uncommon, and are 2HKOed by one of Nidoqueen's other moves anyway. Slowking is an awesome teammate for Nidoqueen, taking the Psychic, Ice, and Water-type moves aimed at it, while Nidoqueen easily takes the Bug and Electric-type attacks for Slowking. Nidoqueen also does a good job of checking Galvantula by virtue of it's typing, and a LO HP Ice doesn't even come close to OHKOing. You should probably also mention paralysis support since Nidoqueen is rather slow, and appreciates faster Pokemon such as Archeops to be paralyzed.

    Edit: Texas, I've used it, and it just doesn't do anything for the team other than set up Stealth Rock and die. I'd much rather utilize Nidoqueen's sweeping capabilities than use it as a mediocre Stealth Rocker.
  9. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf meh
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Contributor Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2009
    Messages:
    7,574
    I'd like someone to actually use the defensive set before any judgement is passed on it. It was good in previous metagames in other tiers, it at least deserves to be tested before being written off imo.
  10. -Tsunami-

    -Tsunami- ¡YA HA!
    is a Smogon IRC AOPis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnusis a SPL Winneris a World Cup of Pokemon defending champion
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2009
    Messages:
    2,704
    I did test it, and after using both sets, I can say that defensive is pretty bad and should not be on the analysis. It doesn't have recovery, there are a ton of Poison-types in the tier so Toxic Spikes isn't really that useful, and it cant really wall anything.
  11. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf meh
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Contributor Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2009
    Messages:
    7,574
  12. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    6,338
    I had already moved Ice Beam to AC, just forgot to remove it from the set. Added Slowking as a partner, and moved the mixed defensive set to OO (keeped the skeleton in case someone can prove it is viable).
  13. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    6,338
    Seeing as 10 days have passed, and no one has said something, i assume that this is now ready for QC approvals?
  14. SilentVerse

    SilentVerse Into the New World
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Past SPL Winner
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2009
    Messages:
    918
    Just remove Electivire from Checks and Counters and AC Shadow Ball and consider this:

    [​IMG]

    QC Approved 1/3
  15. Oglemi

    Oglemi it's me heysup's gay friend, the legendary gaysup
    is a Tournament Directoris a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
    C&C Leader

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2009
    Messages:
    8,218
    [qc]2/3[/qc]
  16. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    6,338
    Done everything you asked SV, but can i ask what is the usefulness of Shadow Ball? Uxie, Cofagrigus, Slowking and Dusknoir are already 2hkoed by Sludge Wave/EP/Tbolt.
  17. Omicron

    Omicron
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    3,042
    Yea OO Shadow Ball.

    [qc]3/3[/qc]
  18. SilentVerse

    SilentVerse Into the New World
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Past SPL Winner
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2009
    Messages:
    918
    Shadow Ball is kinda a niche move, but it's Nidoqueen's best bet against Misdreavus and Gardevoir, who are basically some of Nidoqueen's only true hard counters, so the ability to get past them is appreciated, even though they're not that common. It also makes it even easier to get a 2HKO on those Pokemon you mentioned.
  19. Omicron

    Omicron
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    3,042
    SilentVerse, Sludge Wave + Sheer Force + STAB = 185 BP, whereas a supereffective Shadow Ball is only 160 BP :<

    It does hit Misdreavus, but that's the only target it hits harder than any of Nidoqueen's other moves because it is immune to Earth Power. Dusknoir and Cofagrigus are smashed by Earth Power, so it's only OO material at best.

    Edit: Lol I forgot Shadow Ball is boosted by Sheer Force too xD

    derpity derpy derp
  20. -Tsunami-

    -Tsunami- ¡YA HA!
    is a Smogon IRC AOPis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnusis a SPL Winneris a World Cup of Pokemon defending champion
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2009
    Messages:
    2,704
    smh i suck
    anyway add that to the AC of the first set
    and because i suck
    [​IMG]
    QC APPROVED 4/3
  21. Honko

    Honko
    is a Programmeris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2009
    Messages:
    1,141
    gj omi makin us proud

    [qc]5/3[/qc]
  22. Molk

    Molk tfw zoroark
    is a Tutoris a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    RU Leader

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    3,284
    [​IMG]

    QC Approved 6/3

    bs late
  23. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    6,338
    Ok thx guys for the stamps, 2 more to go :D

    I will be in holidays for 1 week, so when i am back i will start writing this!

    EDIT: Oh and something else. In the AC, i have put as an option ''a bulkier spread'', but i haven't got any input as to what evs this spread should have...
  24. Honko

    Honko
    is a Programmeris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2009
    Messages:
    1,141
    Bulkier spread should aim for 230 speed to beat base 55s, and mention that it's a good idea to add a couple more EVs to beat the Feraligatr, Uxie, Drapion, other bulky Nidoqueens, etc that all aim for the same benchmark.
  25. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    6,338

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)