Ninetales (Full Revamp) [QC 3/3] [GP 2/2]

working on skeleton as you view this thread

status: ready for qc checks

status: ready for gp checks; credit for overview goes to harsha


<p>When one looks at Ninetales, the first thing to come to mind is its relative lack of utility outside of Drought. Ninetales is fairly useless outside of its ability, so the sun it provides should be the only reason to run it. While Ninetales doesn't have an expansive movepool or a good stat distribution, it can run a few viable sets, namely specially defensive and Sunny Day. If you want to pack Ninetales on a team, you need to make sure that you provide adequate support to keep Ninetales alive, as sun teams are generally dependent on Drought support.</p>

name: Defensive
move 1: Flamethrower
move 2: Will-O-Wisp
move 3: Sunny Day
move 4: Roar / Hypnosis / Substitute
item: Leftovers
ability: Drought
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 124 Def / 132 Spe


<p>While it might seem strange to use a defensive set on a Fire-type, especially one that isn't all that bulky, Ninetales is the MVP of a sun team. Many sun teams fall flat on their face with another weather in play, so it is imperative for Ninetales to outlast opposing weather inducers. However, opposing weather teams with Dugtrio greatly threaten it. This Ninetales can survive an Earthquake from non-Choice Band Dugtrio, which helps mitigate the worry. Additionally, having a good pivot is always handy, and Ninetales fulfills that role decently. Ninetales can switch into most Grass-, Ice-, Fire-, and Bug-type attacks, as well as Scalds from bulky Water-types. Three out of four of these types are hit super effectively by Flamethrower, which means that Ninetales won't just be a sitting duck for setup sweepers. Stronger Fire-type attacks will hurt, however, so be careful what you switch Ninetales into. Also, be sure to avoid bringing Ninetales in too often when an opposing weather inducer is still alive, as keeping Ninetales alive is very important.</p>

<p>The type of team you're playing against should dictate how you play Ninetales. Against rain and sand teams, one should play conservatively: do not switch Ninetales into every attack it can take. Only do so when necessary until the weather war is won, as rain and sand teams commonly carry Pokemon that rip apart sun teams under their preferred weather. Note that hail wasn't mentioned; this is because Abomasnow fares poorly against Ninetales, as do its Ice-type teammates. Against opposing sun teams, utilize Ninetales's Fire and Grass resistances to the fullest extent, as Ninetales will not be of much other use. Ninetales can check Volcarona that lack Hidden Power Rock or Ground, wall standard Venusaur, and aid in stalling out Flare Blitz recoil versus Darmanitan, which does not OHKO. Sun teams can usually just go to town against weatherless teams, so unless it is needed to check something important, you can treat Ninetales as death fodder.</p>

<p>Another reason why Ninetales makes a decent defensive Pokemon is its stellar support movepool. Flamethrower occupies the first slot as the STAB move of choice, sporting perfect accuracy and decent power in sun. It allows Ninetales to wear down Pokemon with something other than residual damage and prevents it from being Taunt or setup bait. Next, Will-O-Wisp lets Ninetales check a ton of physical attackers, such as Dragonite, by outspeeding and crippling them. It also gives Ninetales a way to beat Dugtrio if you can predict its switch in; although Will-O-Wisp's accuracy is not so great, its huge potential reward makes it worth the risk. Sunny Day too is completely irreplaceable, as it steals the momentum back from the switch in of an opposing weather inducer; seizing this momentum gives you an immediate advantage and forces your opponent to rethink their game plan.</p>

<p>The last slot is a toss-up between a few moves. Roar is useful for deterring setup sweepers, especially Volcarona, and it also provides yet another way to combat Dugtrio&mdash;though prediction is required. Hypnosis is another risky but rewarding option, particularly if you manage to catch a weather inducer, a menacing threat, or&mdash;guess who&mdash;Dugtrio. The final option listed is Substitute, and with good reason. It eases worry against Dugtrio, aids in spreading burn, and lets Ninetales use Sunny Day against Tyranitar. Jirachi, Ferrothorn, and Forretress are just a few Pokemon that Ninetales can set up a free Substitute on. All of these moves are excellent; pick the one that is best for your team.</p>


<p>The EVs give Ninetales some much-needed bulk, with enough Defense investment to survive an Earthquake from Focus Sash Dugtrio at full health. 132 Speed EVs and a Timid nature let it outrun Modest Hydreigon. These EVs provide an equilibrium between Speed and bulk, but the spread can be altered to put more emphasis on either. 12 EVs can be moved from Speed to Defense to guarantee Life Orb Breloom's +2 Mach Punch never OHKOes, while the Defense EVs can be moved to Special Defense to better take on foes such as Calm Mind Latias. Shed Shell is a usable item because, as has been alluded to throughout this analysis, Dugtrio is a pain in the rear. However, the loss of recovery is a very high price to pay, and you can run Substitute to achieve the same end result.</p>

<p>The fourth moveslot is in no way limited to the options listed on the set. Protect is useful for scouting and gaining extra Leftovers recovery, and might even save Ninetales against Dugtrio. Pain Split is a decent option to both provide recovery and a means of wearing down the opponent. Lastly, Hidden Power Rock can be used to break Heatran's Air Balloon, which gives teammates such as Volcarona and Venusaur the ability to hit Heatran with Ground-type attacks. All of these moves are excellent choices; they only aren't listed on the set because they have more limited applications than the listed choices.</p>

<p>Support is the difference between life and death for defensive Ninetales, as it is incapable of operating without a few types of support. The first is Magic Bounce or Rapid Spin. Ninetales is weak to Stealth Rock and vulnerable to all other entry hazards, so needless to say, it is very helpful to keep them off the field. Xatu is best for Magic Bounce because of its Ground immunity; its advantages over a spinner are its ability to provide momentum and paralysis support. Rapid Spin has two notable users–Forretress and Donphan. Forretress has decent type synergy with Ninetales and sun teams in general, particularly luring Fire-type attacks for Ninetales to switch in on. Moreover, a slow Volt Switch is nice to get a sweeper in for free. To top it all off, it can set up all three forms of entry hazards; pick and choose the one(s) you want. These entry hazards can be utilized with Roar and to wear down opposing weather inducers. Donphan is the other good spinner for sun teams. Offensive variants can revenge kill Dragon-types, which pose a major threat to many sun teams, and take some attacks that would severely injure Ninetales&mdash;most importantly Rock-type ones. It has even better type synergy with Ninetales than Forretress except for the lack of a Dragon resistance.</p>

<p>Trapper support is also very helpful; Dugtrio is the most common because it can effortlessly trap and KO Heatran and Tyranitar, finish off weakened Politoed, and dispatch slightly weakened Tentacruel. Trapping these Pokemon is extraordinarily useful for sun teams, and it is for this reason that Dugtrio is found on many successful ones. Gothitelle is another option if you're less concerned about Tyranitar and Heatran and more concerned about Politoed, Hippowdon, and Steel-types. Wobbuffet also has some difficulty against Tyranitar, but it has the advantage of being able to efficiently trap and KO or Encore most of OU.</p>

<p>There's one big catch when using Ninetales: it is a subpar Pokemon outside of setting sun. Sun is not a condition to be randomly thrown on teams, as it ruins the STAB moves of Water-types and increases the potency of Fire-type attacks, which is heavily debilitating to Steel-types. This means that you need to be taking advantage of sun to the fullest possible extent to make Ninetales worthwhile; a good benchmark&mdash;or bare minimum&mdash;is one Chlorophyll sweeper and one Fire-type attacker. Sun stall with Pokemon such as Cresselia is an exception to this rule, but note that sun stall is a rare playstyle as it is difficult to pull off effectively; offensive sun and to a lesser extent balanced sun are the dominant sun playstyles.</p>

<p>There are three more teammates that should be taken into consideration when using Ninetales. The first of these is Magma Storm Heatran, who helps deal with weather inducers and a whole slew of other Pokemon. Heatran also has a useful Dragon resistance and can set up Stealth Rock, so it is a useful partner even without Magma Storm. The Dugtrio weakness is quite apparent when using Ninetales and Heatran together, however, so be sure to not fill the remaining slots with Pokemon vulnerable to it. The second is Bronzong, who can take most attacks that would severely hurt Ninetales due to Levitate and its rare set of resistances. It can also set up Stealth Rock, which is always useful. Last but definitely not least is Latias, who has near-perfect type synergy with Ninetales; Dragonite is similar but unfortunately shares a Rock weakness. Sun teams appreciate Latias's resistances immensely, while Latias can provide Wish support to aid Ninetales in its quest to stay alive.</p>

name: Special Attacker
move 1: Sunny Day
move 2: SolarBeam
move 3: Fire Blast
move 4: Hidden Power Ice / Will-O-Wisp / Nasty Plot
item: Leftovers / Air Balloon
ability: Drought
nature: Timid / Modest
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe


<p>While keeping Ninetales alive for as long as possible is certainly important, it requires quite a bit of support to take hits on its own. Additionally, it has difficulty winning weather wars by itself. However, with an offensive set, Ninetales can both win the weather war and pose an offensive threat. While it doesn't hit that hard with base 81 Special Attack, sun-boosted Fire Blast hits everything it needs to. The offensive presence pushes aside the need for Dugtrio, who is commonly run with defensive Ninetales to make up for its lack thereof. Be sure to make note of this in not always using Dugtrio, otherwise you have an inferior Ninetales that can't take a strong attack to save its life.</p>

<p>SolarBeam is the main draw of this set; 2HKOing Tyranitar and Politoed is no small feat. It also hits most Water-types for decent damage, so it isn't limited in use to just weather inducers. However, its major fault is that it leaves Ninetales defenseless if another weather comes into play. This is where Sunny Day comes in; if you can pull it off as Tyranitar or Politoed comes in, they either switch out or foolishly stay in, only to lose a large amount of health to SolarBeam. However, unlike the defensive set, there is no margin for error when using Sunny Day. One misprediction will leave Ninetales helpless to do anything; thus, you must be aggressive in your use of the move. Next on the highlight reel is Fire Blast. Fire Blast hits considerably hard with 252 Special Attack EVs and sun backing it. The power is not amazing but gets the job done; it 2HKOes frail resists and most neutrally hit offensive Pokemon. The 30% chance of burn is handy too, especially if Ninetales lacks Will-O-Wisp.</p>

<p>The last slot has quite a few viable options. Hidden Power Ice is the preferred choice to hit Dragon-types hard as well as OHKO Landorus-T and Gliscor without the risk of missing. Will-O-Wisp is an amazing move on Ninetales because of its potency against physical attackers that would otherwise be able to defeat Ninetales with ease. The final option is Nasty Plot, which might seem to be an April Fools' joke on a Pokemon with base 81 Special Attack; however, this is not the case. In sun, a boosted Fire Blast 2HKOes Blissey, which is no small feat for a special attacker. A boosted SolarBeam can OHKO Tyranitar and Politoed, Ninetales's two worst foes. Nonetheless, it cannot be emphasized enough that Ninetales is not a sweeper; it is too lacking in the stats department. Nasty Plot is solely to give the extra offensive boost when you need something KOed. Be sure to use Air Balloon with Nasty Plot, by the way. It provides a nice buffer against Dugtrio, Landorus-T, and other Ground-types, as well as Earthquake Dragonite, making it easier to set up.</p>


<p>A Timid nature is preferred to outrun neutral base 100s, positive base 90s, and everything below, but Modest is also viable for the added power it provides. Timid should definitely be chosen if using Hidden Power Ice, however, so that Ninetales can get the jump on Naughty Salamence. Leftovers is the item of choice because passive recovery helps keep Ninetales alive, which is crucial for sun teams. It also gives Ninetales more Stealth Rock switch-ins. An equally good choice is Air Balloon; Ninetales is extremely vulnerable to Ground-type attacks and Dugtrio, so a Ground immunity, no matter how flimsy, is appreciated; as previously mentioned, it also helps with setting up Nasty Plot. One could go so far as to run Shed Shell solely for Dugtrio, but the lack of other relevant benefits makes it inferior. Concerning the last slot, there are two other moves that could be run; Protect can be used to augment Leftovers recovery and scout foes, and Hidden Power Ground can be used to hit Heatran, a major threat to most sun teams.</p>

<p>Magic Bounce or spinner support is 100% necessary because this set already has enough survivability issues even without entry hazards in the mix. For the offensively minded players that would use this set, Xatu fits the bill perfectly, as it can set up screens to protect sun sweepers and maintain momentum with U-turn. However, Rapid Spin support is still the more reliable option. The two spinners that are best on sun are differentiated by one factor: Forretress has a Dragon resistance and Donphan a Rock one; whichever your team is more weak to is the one that you should use. Forretress also has slow Volt Switch going for it, while Donphan can provide offensive presence and the ability to revenge kill Dragon-types. Additionally, you will need Heatran removed for Ninetales to function properly, so Dugtrio, Wobbuffet, or a bunch of moves scattered among Ninetales's teammates is necessary.</p>

<p>Bronzong and Latias beautiful defensive synergy, with Bronzong setting up Stealth Rock to help bring weather inducers into KO range and Latias providing Wish support to keep Ninetales in decent health. Magma Storm Heatran remains an excellent partner, possessing the ability to trap most Pokemon that threaten Ninetales. Last but not least, Healing Wish Lilligant is an amazing partner, as it can utilize sun, put Ninetales's threats to sleep, and heal up Ninetales when it would otherwise fall to entry hazards. When Ninetales is in such low health, many opponents would tend to let their weather inducer die, which leaves Ninetales in control of the weather if Lilligant manages to heal it.</p>

[Other Options]

<p>There a few sets that Ninetales used to be able to run effectively but that have declined in use since the release of BW2. One of these is Choice Specs, which makes Fire Blast really pack a punch. However, being locked into one move is terrible for a Pokemon that needs to maintain versatility in attacking, and Ninetales still isn't all that powerful. Similarly, a pure Nasty Plot set with Energy Ball over SolarBeam and Hidden Power Ice over Sunny Day might seem viable, but Ninetales fails to sweep effectively, and Nasty Plot only works with Sunny Day alongside it. If you so desire to run such a set, Dugtrio support is essential to prevent Heatran from being an issue. A Calm Mind booster is another of those sets. In theory, it should allow Ninetales to tank hits and dish them out, but it doesn't quite work that way. In reality, multiple boosts are needed to accomplish that goal, and Ninetales has difficulty stacking boosts. Furthermore, it needs opposing weather inducers gone to do so. If one wanted to prevent issues with weather inducers, it would be necessary to run Sunny Day; however, Ninetales needs Pain Split to accumulate boosts effectively and a coverage move to hit Water-types. If there were 5 moveslots available, sure, maybe Calm Mind would be effective. The last set is one with 252 Speed EVs and a Timid nature utilizing Disable. À la SubDisable Gengar, Disable could mess with Pokemon that only have one move with which to hit Ninetales hard. However, unlike Gengar, Ninetales cannot to take sufficient advantage of the free turn(s) it might gain, thus it is inferior to any of Ninetales's other options. There is one more move that could be considered&mdash;Toxic. Toxic could be used in place of Will-O-Wisp as a status move to deter bulky Water-types and weather inducers from switching into Ninetales. On the other hand, it lacks the crippling halving of Attack that Will-O-Wisp boasts, making it a much less effective option overall.</p>

[Checks and Counters]

<p>The best form of defense against Ninetales is another weather, as Ninetales is used solely for sun. If sun is taken off the field, sun teams will be immediately crippled. However, Ninetales does threaten some weather inducers, namely Tyranitar and Politoed: both are 2HKOed by SolarBeam, while Tyranitar is also crippled by Will-O-Wisp. Ninetales can also use Sunny Day as they switch in to regain momentum. In short, weather inducers have to be quite careful against Ninetales, especially offensive variants. The only weather inducer that can switch in risk-free against most Ninetales is Hippowdon, but it can be silenced by Nasty Plot-boosted SolarBeam. If you don't want to have to worry about Ninetales dealing heavy damage to your weather inducer, Dugtrio is the best way to go, as it beats all but Substitute and Air Balloon variants with a little prior damage.</p>

<p>Other than weather inducers, there are a few Pokemon that can beat Ninetales. If you want to completely wall it, Blissey and Chansey are your best friends, as they can take any hit and slowly kill it with Toxic and Seismic Toss. Blissey would do well to watch out for Nasty Plot-boosted Fire Blast, however. Tentacruel also walls it and is able to set up Toxic Spikes, Toxic Ninetales directly, or use Rapid Spin, all for free. Heatran also walls Ninetales and can set up Stealth Rock or straight-up attack with Earthquake. The defensive set is fair game for Gastrodon, but note that the offensive set would OHKO it with SolarBeam if it attempted to take a hit. Donphan can take any one attack and KO with Head Smash or Earthquake, regardless of whether it is burnt. Terrakion can take any attack other than SolarBeam and OHKO with Stone Edge or Close Combat. Volcarona can set up for free and demolish Ninetales; sun-boosted Fire Blast and Hidden Power Rock 2HKO Ninetales even without Quiver Dance boosts. Even defensive Ninetales has a small chance to be OHKOed by +1 Hidden Power Rock, while offensive variants are always OHKOed by both +1 Hidden Power Rock and +1 Fire Blast. Victini always OHKOes offensive Ninetales with Choice Band V-create and defensive variants over half the time, while taking a pittance from any attacks Ninetales might throw at it. Defensive variants are easily taken care of by Gliscor, and so long as it doesn't switch into Hidden Power Ice, Fire Blast, or Will-O-Wisp, Landorus can defeat Ninetales.</p>

<p>Other than opposing weather, Dragon-types are the best way to defeat Ninetales. Kyurem-B can take anything Ninetales has other than a burn and blast it to pieces. Garchomp is similar; Yache Berry variants can take even Hidden Power Ice. Latios and Latias also wall and can KO Ninetales. Dragon Dance set-up sweepers that carry Substitute or hold a Lum Berry can set up on and destroy Ninetales along with its teammates. These include Substitute + Dragon Dance Gyarados, Lum Berry Dragon Dance Haxorus, Lum Berry Dragon Dance Dragonite, and Substitute + Dragon Dance Dragonite. These Pokemon only win if Ninetales does not carry Roar, however. Salamence can also beat Ninetales, no matter what the set&mdash;Dragon Dance, mixed, Choice Scarf, it doesn't matter.</p>

<p>As you can see, beating Ninetales is quite easy. Even if you don't have any of these Pokemon (which you should), you can always resort to pounding Ninetales with powerful attacks or hitting it with priority from Breloom or Choice Band Dragonite. If you go to great lengths to defeat Ninetales, you're doing it wrong.</p>


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A few things i noticed...

Why is Solarbeam the second slash on the first set? Your fire STAB is much more important.

Also quickly remove Sub from the second set, as it is a very bad option for something that already has survivability issues. In the third slot there should be Roar, which is one of the few things Tales has going for her (WoW + phazing is something not many defensive pokes can do) and Sub should stay in AC at best. About the last slot... I think you should deslash Hypnsois as Ninetales doesn't have the bulk to take hits if it misses, so it should be left in AC. Protect and HP Fight seem as good options, and i think that Sunny Day works well too, even in a defensive set, 'cause having your weather up means a lot in this meta.

That's it for now.

EDIT: How the hell did i forget? Definitely slash Pain Split in the last slot of the second set.


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In my experience, Pain Split is actually a shitty move on defensive Ninetales, more often making you gain 2% or even lose HP than getting something useful out of it. It and Substitute are nice AC mentions (I'd move Sub to OO since Substitute might have use on NP Tales) but not worth dedicated slots on the sets.

Dark Fallen Angel

I've been using Roar on a Sunny Day set. It is a great move for surprising opponents that think that can use your Ninetales as setup fodder. You can even use it alongside Will-O-Wisp to spread burns or rack up Stealth Rock damage so that your Chlorophyll sweeper will have an even easier time sweeping. I think that it needs at least a mention on Additional Comments, on the fourth or second moveslot.


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Firstly, I thought I'd just say that QC doesn't entirely agree about this one. Nonetheless, here is what I'd do:

There should be two sets. The first should be called "Specially Defensive" and the second "Special Attacker." The Special Attacker set should be your current Sunny Day set, or a slightly edited version of it. Sunny Day should still be the only option in one of the slots; the reason I don't want to call the set sunny day, is that every Ninetales set can (and in my opinion, should) run Sunny Day. Its just so great for messing with Politoed; unless the Politoed is scarfed, you don't need to predict its switchin or anything. You can just use Sunny Day right in its face. It's also highly helpful against Tyranitar, though I wouldn't recommend using it in ttar's face unless you have a Dugtrio in the wings waiting to take tyranitar out.

I think the specially defensive set should look like this:

name: Specially Defensive
move 1: Flamethrower
move 2: Will-O-Wisp
move 3: Sunny Day
move 4: Roar / Hypnosis / Protect
item: Leftovers
ability: Drought
nature: Calm
evs: 252 HP / 120 SpD / 136 Spe

With Toxic Hidden Power Ground, Hidden Power Fighting, and Pain Split in AC. Substitute barely deserves that - Ninetales is a Pokemon that preserves its health at all costs, and can't even do much from behind the sub anyway. I would also like to clarify why I don't like Toxic, and that's that generally, stuff won't be staying in very long against ninetales (unless Protect). Bearing in mind that you have sunny day, politoed shouldn't be staying in two turns against you, let alone the required three. I generally prefer to burn politoed when playing with sun. As for the other moves: roar is there so that Ninetales can deal with stuff like CM Latias, and maybe even Volcarona, that threaten to sweep sun teams. It also prevents stuff from stat boosting in front of ninetales after the weather war is won. Protect just lets you get an extra 1/16 from leftovers and deal extra burn damage. It's more useful than you'd think - you can guarantee an escape from (or victory over) CBtar with it, for instance.

As for the evs, we need to look more carefully into how much Speed to use. The current spread is for toxicroak, which I would not consider very relevant. I think outrunning Adamant Lucario, Landorus-T and Jolly Mamoswine might be a good benchmark, or alternatively Timid Politoed.

I don't like Nasty Plot, but if we are keeping it, Sunny Day should be considered there too.
never lead with ninetailes unless the foe doesn't have a perm weather starter since it's the fastest weather starter without any modifications since unless politoed or t-tar or the rare abomasnow holding a scarf it will always loses who gets what weather up since slower weather is what goes up.

i found ninetales to be a generally crappy lead because of this since it auto-loses in a lead weather starter match up and can only win against abomasnow who isn't as outright dangerous as t-tar or politoed are.

also DO NOT USE SOLAR BEAM it's power is not worth how easy it is to get locked into it if t-tar/politoed/aboma switch in and remove sun a solar beam using ninetales is a dead one.
I think power swap and overheat deserve a mention in AC under the specially defensive set, this allows ninetails to do some serious damage while stealing boosts from anything that thinks it can set up on it. Overheat/power swap/Roar/Pain split|toxic is a pretty effective set, I've found some pretty good success with it and so have other people. This set allows ninetails to counter water types like starmie, gastrodon, and jellicent.


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Chiming in to side with the possible removal of NP to QC. It's a great gamble vs non weather, but loses most of the time to Rain+Sand. It's slow, it's fucked by hazards, it's suicidal, and it's risky.

It's not Ninetale's stats or movepool that I think goes wrong here, but its typing and ability, and weakness to hazards. It is powerful after NP, but the problem is getting that boost in the first place. With 3 common weaknesses, susceptibility to all hazards, and LO recoil, Ninetales is not going to be taking any hits at all- that is, if you can even get it in safely. Dragons can set up with it and KO it easily, Tyranitar and friends can just stall it to death, and powerful Rain sweepers like Specs Latios can OHKO without a second glance. It's slow too, and can be easily forced out, as everything thay beats it is faster than it. Switching means taking more hazard damage- and it racks up fast. Ninetales's role as a weather provider also restricts it somewhat. It's risky to run such an offensive suicide set (because switching against hazards is stupid) because Sun is often one of the most weathe reliant strategies. Losing Ninetales is a punch not many Sun teams can take, especially if you use Chlorophyll sweepers, which are in general fast and frail.

EDIT: I actually agree with Pocket's suggestion, b/c the offensive set needs a bit more oomph. Ninetales lasts a whole lot longer with Lefties instead of Life Orb, and it's less obvious that it's offensive when it shows recovery.

Also, I forgot to mention this- add SPIN SUPPORT in set comments. Ninetales is crippled heavily by SR, Spikes, AND Toxic Spikes- even more than Politoed and Tyranitar. Spin support is essential if you want Ninetales to be able to switch in more than thrice.


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Nasty Plot is certainly an amazing asset to Ninetales - it actually allows Ninetales to contribute to the Sun team's Heavy Offense! Thought Ninetales a free switch-in to Blissey? Think again as Ninetales NP twice and 2HKOs even specially-defensive Blissey in the sun.

I think Nasty Plot should be merged with the offensive set, though, because it's certainly a top choice on an offensive Ninetales! Slash it next to Will-O-Wisp. HP Fighting is worth slashing with SolarBeam to hit Tyranitar & Heatran super-effectively, which actually does quite a bit after a NP boost.


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Nasty Plot Ninetales is its worst set by far. Please, don't use it. Ever. As a matter of fact, leave it out of this analysis entirely, including AC, because it's so awful that it doesn't even deserve a mention here. Sure, in BW1, NP Tales had it merits. Like...uhhh...yeah I can't even name any. But in BW2, it's much, much worse. Most of the metagame outruns and OHKOs/2HKOs it, not to mention that ScarfToed is everywhere, which not only neutralizes Tales's Sun but also outspeeds and OHKOs before Tales can do a thing to it. There really isn't room for NP Ninetales in this metagame...the only even slightly acceptable set is Specially Defensive, and I hate that one too. Ninetales is a rotten Pokemon in general, aside from its ability; don't try to make a boosting sweeper out of this piece of Trubbish.
Talked on #C&C. I've decided to move Nasty Plot to OO between all the opinions I've gotten. Sorry Pocket, but I just don't see why it should be a main option. Hidden Power Ice is the only option in the last slot replacing the useless Will-O-Wisp. Specially Defensive is moved to first set based on QC opinions. I'll do the skeleton soon.

Just a progress update~


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Specially Defensive Ninetales should be a little bit faster... I've found myself creeping its speed up over the years out of paranoia until I got up to 252 Timid to burn everything in or below the 100 speed tier without issue. Pragmatically, I think it should be standard to at least outspeed Jolly Mamoswine. The spread we have now is only 270 speed, so even Adamant Lucario is faster.

My recommendation for EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 Spe Timid. Hits 297 Speed. At full HP, it survives a naked Dugtrio EQ guaranteed, can survive a +2 Adamant LO Extremespeed from Lucario even after rocks. Slim chance to be OHKOed by a +2 LO Mach Punch from Breloom, so you can take more out of speed if you want. Special defense EVs are just useless; everything Ninetales wants to check is a physical attacker and so are most of her enemies.

Speaking of which, Substitute is good. You don't have to predict your Ttar, Dugtrio, or Politoed switch-ins, or guess what set they're running when you go to burn it. Jirachi, Ferro, and Forry are free Subs for WoW spreading. Ninetales is a Will-o-Wisp cannon, so anything that helps her do that should take top priority. Everything hates a burn in BW2. If it's going AC, mention the perks I listed (plus escaping Pursuit from Tyranitar) if it's Scarfed.
Hmm, I would mention 1) A Rapid Spin partner to remove hazards and help Ninetails live longer and 2) Pokemon that benefit from Drought (Fire Pokemon, Chrloyphill ability Grass types, Dragon with Fire moves).
I tried to talk to some QC members about these changes, but unfortunately when I went on irc to ask about this stuff no one was on. So, I made some changes that I know might make heads roll (one in particular) but were all well-founded.

I wanted to do the skeleton before I posted about these changes so it's now fully completed and is ready for QC checks.

Alright, so here's the summary of the changes:

  • Slashed Substitute on first set—SJCrew convinced me to test it and I did, it's more than worthy of a slash in the last slot. Read his post for the information, he explained Substitute nicely.
  • Changed the EV spread to SJCrew's suggested spread of 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 Spe and a Timid nature. Really, as long as Ninetales has the HP investment to take Thunderbolts from Genesect, special attacks aren't a major issue and Ninetales has the capability to take some physical attacks. Also, preventing Dugtrio from KOing if you lead with Ninetales and it leads too is amazing. Outspeeding Jolly Mamoswine is also something important. This also precludes outspeeding SubDD Dragonite, which sweeps a ton of most sun teams unhindered if it leads against defensive Ninetales. At least Ninetales can go for a burn and cripple it. This is assuming you don't have Forretress/Bronzong/whatever Steel-type you use on sun/Cresselia and is particularly useful when Ninetales isn't running Roar in the last slot.
  • Slashed Will-O-Wisp on offensive, no controversy here though as I was told to slash it regardless. However, I also slashed the elephant in the room, Nasty Plot. Lavos and pttp, I know that you guys are vehemently opposed to NP Ninetales as an existing thing anywhere, but I went out and tested it and to my surprise found it excellent. I remember Aldaron saying he had success with it and Pocket is a huge proponent of it. What Pocket said is true, except my item was Air Balloon, which was nice for Dugtrio/other whatever Ground-types. The misconception is that you use NP to sweep—you don't! NP is just for that power boost when you need it, such as smacking Hippowdon harder and 2HKOing Blissey(!). Overall, the power boost is useful in numerous situations and it's a worthy slash.
  • Nature on offensive is Timid / Modest, Timid first because Ninetales's Speed stat is a huge strong point of it, but Modest has additional powerful that is invaluable sometimes.

I wouldn't be surprised if the next few posts are about NP, but please be sure to test it out (with Air Balloon) before you bash it.


Oh, and Hemp Man, I didn't ignore your post, but generally speaking you should wait for WIP to be removed from the title to comment on what should be in the skeleton. I might have been misleading with putting in a few details beforehand, so maybe that's my fault though.

EDIT: implemented qc stuff


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im personally perfectly fine with nasty plot getting a slash on a moveset provided that it doesnt get its own set. the way that you have it atm is fine with me. for both of the sets teammates though, you should make a mention of magma storm heatran, as it does a great job of clearing the other weathers and allowing ninetailes to do its thing better. i also would like to see protect dropped from the first moveset and put into AC as 1) 4 moves in 1 spot seems a bit messy and 2) it really isnt that crucial

provided you do that and you get my first ever stamp!!!!!



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Hidden Power Rock should be slashed with Sunny Day on the defensive set. Not being able to pop Air Balloon Heatran is not the best idea. Hidden Power can also be Fighting or Ice-type, etc, but I've seen Rock being used on defensive Ninetales the most.
I gave HP Rock an AC mention, as Sunny Day is not a move you really want to be without, so if you really want it, it would fit better as the last move, and that moveslot is cramped already. Thanks for the stamp shrang!
I would move Hypnosis to AC because frankly it sucks and a Miss can spell doom for Ninetales. Tales has no business taking any risks with it being so eessential for sunteams. And even if you sleep a weathermon it doesnt mean you win the weatherwar i.e. you get the sleep on def. Politoed and it will still switch in with impunity.

Personally ive had pretty good success with using Protect on Ninetales because it offers Tales a good option to regain HP (Leftovers) and allows you to scout moves.

Oh and i also like SDef on Tales so she can patch up some common weaknesses of Sun (Gengar, reliable first Switch into Rotom-W, Torn-T).


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Just a couple of niche things you might want to look at (for my piece of mind).

+2 loom ohkoes with mach punch.
While true this is a checks and counters section, and I don't see how a Breloom is magically getting to +2 on a switch in. Poke me if I missed something rly obvious but otherwise you could perhapes reword to something like "Nintales likes to avoid priority from Breloom + CB Dragonite as they do significant damage to Ninetales, making it difficult to win the weather war". (Tho idk if that still fits in with Checks + counters).

-Make sure you mention that Terrakion ideally wants to avoid the (possible) WoW switching in.

-Its prolly worth mentioning Heatran in checks / counters since it hard counters you, generally annoying to sun etc etc.


@ Thick Club
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<p>Solarbeam is the main draw of this set; OHKOing Tyranitar and Politoed
Solarbeam vs 4/0 Politoed = 59% - 70%
Solarbeam vs 4/0 Tyranitar = 56% - 66%

they can both just stay in, tank the hit, and ohko Ninetales depending on their set (specs toed has a small chance of ohkoing uninvested Ninetales, even in the Sun, or Scarf Toed can outrun and 2HKO) and you're potentially 4HKOing SpD Tar so have fun with that!