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No going above Mach1! - SonicBoom discussion

Discussion in 'Little Cup' started by Elevator Music, Feb 22, 2010.

  1. Elevator Music

    Elevator Music still not a girl, sry
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Jan 25, 2008
    Quite noticeable in the LC banlist is the banning of the moves Dragon Rage and SonicBoom. The former deals 40 damage, has 100% accuracy, and has no immunities. It literally OHKOes everything in the game. SonicBoom, however, deals 20 damage, has 90% accuracy, and does not affect Ghost-types (and pokemon with Soundproof). This is begging the question: Is SonicBoom actually worth banning in Little Cup? This is a question that was discussed a long time ago, but then discussion just died on it. edit: here

    NOTE: this is actually a big post. it's not very good, but i'd appreciate if you read it.

    An in depth look at SonicBoom-
    What has less than 20 HP? (What is OHKOed by SonicBoom)
    It is well known that a lot of pokemon run Life Orb sets in LC and purposely reduce their HP to 19. This allows them to take only 1 HP or recoil damage per attack, giving them an easier time sweeping. Common examples of this are Elekid, Dratini, and LO Paras. These pokemon are all OHKOed by SonicBoom.

    Most pokemon, however, hit above 20 HP. It's usually around 21 or 22. If SR is on the field, many more pokemon can be OHKOed by SonicBoom. Pokemon need to hit 23 HP with neutrality to SR not to be OHKOed (22 if they have a resistance). Pokemon with an SR weakness need to hit 26 HP... but the only one that can do that is Drifloon, who is immune.

    Here is a list of all the pokemon in LC that are OHKOed by SonicBoom without any HP investment. Pokemon who are bolded are either common or good in LC (I'm going off my own judgement here; complain to me about it on IRC). Pokemon in italics are known to lower their HP from 21 HP to 19 HP to take 1 HP Life Orb recoil damage. Pokemon who have an asterisk (*) next to them are OHKOed with Stealth Rock on the field. Cleffa was excluded because Magic Guard prevents SR damage, and with 21 min HP Cleffa won't be OHKOed... not that anyone cares about Cleffa

    NOTE: you can tl;dr this list and skip to the part below

    - Abra
    - Aipom*
    - Anorith*
    - Aron*
    - Azurill*
    - Bagon*
    - Baltoy
    - Barboach*
    - Beldum
    - Bellsprout*
    - Bidoof*
    - Bonsly*
    - Budew
    - Buizel*
    - Bulbasaur*
    - Buneary*
    - Burmy
    - Cacnea*
    - Carvanha*
    - Caterpie*
    - Charmander
    - Cherubi*
    - Chikorita*
    - Chimchar
    - Chingling*
    - Clamperl
    - Combee
    - Corphish
    - Croagunk*
    - Cubone*
    - Cyndaquil
    - Diglett
    - Doduo
    - Dratini

    - Drowzee*
    - Eevee*
    - Ekans
    - Electrike
    - Elekid*
    - Exeggcute*
    - Feebas
    - Finneon*
    - Geodude
    - Glameow*
    - Goldeen*
    - Growlithe*
    - Hoothoot*
    - Hoppip
    - Horsea
    - Houndour*
    - Kabuto
    - Koffing
    - Krabby
    - Kricketot
    - Larvitar*
    - Ledyba
    - Lotad
    - Magby*
    - Magikarp
    - Magnemite
    - Mankey
    - Mantyke*

    - Mareep*
    - Meowth
    - Mudkip*
    - Natu
    - Nidoran f*
    - Nidoran m*
    - Nincada
    - Numel*
    - Oddish
    - Omanyte
    - Onix
    - Paras
    - Pichu
    - Pidgey
    - Pineco*
    - Piplup*
    - Poliwag
    - Ponyta*
    - Poochyena
    - Psyduck*
    - Ralts
    - Rattata
    - Remoraid
    - Riolu
    - Sandshrew*
    - Seedot
    - Sentret
    - Shellder
    - Shieldon
    - Shinx*
    - Shroomish*
    - Skitty*
    - Skorupi
    - Slakoth*
    - Slugma
    - Smoochum*
    - Snorunt*
    - Snover*
    - Snubbull*
    - Spearow
    - Spheal*
    - Spinarak
    - Spoink*
    - Squirtle
    - Starly
    - Staryu
    - Stunky*

    - Sunkern
    - Surskit
    - Swablu*
    - Swinub*
    - Taillow
    - Teddiursa*
    - Tentacool
    - Togepi
    - Torchic*
    - Totodile*
    - Trapinch*
    - Treeko
    - Turtwig*
    - Tyrogue
    - Venonat*
    - Vulpix
    - Weedle
    - Wurmple*
    - Zigzagoon
    - Zubat

    This is a long list. Out of the ~163 Pokemon eligible for Little Cup (I may have miscounted...), ~129 are OHKOed by SonicBoom when SR is on the field... IF they lack HP EVs.

    However, even sweepers usually have room to invest a point or two in HP. Pokemon like Mankey and Aron can easily hit 22 HP (stopping SR from putting them in SB range). Narrowing it down to the bolded pokes (aka the good pokes, but this is just my opinion; if you feel that any pokes should be added/removed tell me), many of these pokemon can be removed because they can invest one or two points in their standard set to HP. The following pokemon will not be OHKOed by SonicBoom after SR on a standard set (ie: Attack and Speed is maximized if they're a physical sweeper, etc).
    (In this case, pokemon with an asterisk (*), will only avoid being OHKOed by SonicBoom, but will still be OHKOed with SR. Italicized pokemon will usually have 19 HP, and thus will still be OHKOed even though they could avoid it.):

    Aipom, Anorith*, Aron, Bagon*, Buizel*, Buneary*, Carvanha, Chimchar*, Croagunk, Dratini*, Eevee*, Elekid, Geodude, Horsea*, Houndour*, Krabby*, Larvitar, Magby, Mankey, Mantyke*, Meowth, Poliwag*, Ponyta*, Shellder, Shroomish, Snover*, Squirtle*, Stunky, Taillow*, Teddiursa, and Venonat*.

    This shortens the list of bolded (good pokemon that are OHKOed by SR) pokemon to the following: (once again pokemon with an asterisk are only OHKOed with SR)

    Abra, Anorith*, Bagon*, Buizel*, Buneary*, Carvanha, Chimchar*, Croagunk, Diglett, Dratini*, Eevee*, Elekid, Horsea*, Houndour*, Kabuto, Krabby*, Magby, Magnemite, Mantyke*, Meowth, Omanyte, Paras, Poliwag*, Ponyta*, Snover*, Staryu, Squirtle*, Taillow*, and Venonat*.

    This is 29 pokemon. 17 require SR to be OHKOed (thats not a big requirement though). My list of "good" pokemon (which is below) is ~55 pokes, though I may have miscounted. The question is, is that too much?

    (this is my list and yeah it's my personal opinion. You can argue with me about it on IRC but whatever... it's not that important lol)
    Abra, Aipom, Anorith, Aron, Bagon, Bronzor Buizel, Buneary, Carvanha, Chimchar, Cranidos, Croagunk, Diglett, Dratini, Drifloon, Duskull, Eevee, Elekid, Gastly, Geodude, Gible, Gligar, Hippopotas, Horsea, Houndour, Kabuto, Larvitar, Lickitung, Lileep, Machop, Magby, Magnemite, Mankey, Mantyke, Meowth, Munchlax, Omanyte, Paras, Phanpy, Poliwag, Ponyta, Porygon, Rhyhorn, Shellder, Shroomish, Slowpoke, Snover, Squirtle, Staryu, Stunky, Taillow, Teddiursa, Venonat, Voltorb, Wailmer, and Wynaut.

    Food for thought:

    SonicBoom will OHKO 12 of the "good" pokemon on my list, 29 with SR on the field. Is this a lot? Compare it to another move, like Thunderbolt or DynamicPunch or Ice Beam or EQ. Discuss.

    Also, while not much is OHKOed, almost everything is 2HKOed. Pokemon need to have over 30 HP and Oran Berry to not be 2HKOed by SonicBoom (with Berry Juice they really only need 21 HP though... and Berry Juice WILL be tested in SB2). Is this too unhealthy? Discuss.

    What learns SonicBoom?
    The following pokemon are able to use SonicBoom in Little Cup:
    (Buizel, Magnemite, Spinarak, Voltorb, and Yanma)

    Looking more in depth and all of these pokemon, note that any sets I post aren't necessarily the best, just ones I theorymon'd up really quick:
    Buizel [​IMG]:
    Buizel hits 19 Speed, has access to Aqua Jet for priority, and is capable of doubling its Speed through Swift Swim or Agility. It also has 22 HP without any investment, and with just 23 HP it is capable of surviving an opposing SonicBoom after SR. On top of that, it is not weak to any priority.

    Possible Buizel sets that may be very good in a metagame with SonicBoom-

    Buizel @ Oran Berry / Life Orb / Wide Lens
    Swift Swim | Jolly
    76 HP / 156 Atk / 236 Spe / 36 SpDef
    - Aqua Jet
    - Agility / Rain Dance / Quick Attack
    - Waterfall
    - Sonicboom

    Agility up and sweep with SonicBoom, using Waterfall and Aqua Jet for Ghosts/pokemon not in kill range. Agility is slashed because you can also just use Rain Dance (or have another pokemon set it up).

    After a boost Buizel is faster than anything. The perk to Agility is that opposing Buizel can't speed tie you right off the bat and you aren't on a timer, however with Rain Waterfall and Aqua Jet are boosted. Really though, Buizel can afford to go down to like 17 Speed and it will still outspeed everything after a boost.

    I would avoid using Scarf Buizel because it's a crappier Scarf Voltorb.... and there's not really a reason to use both imo. It would make Buizel a good revenge killer though.

    Possible checks/counters for Buizel:
    Duskull, Voltorb, Mantyke, Chinchou, Slowpoke, etc.

    Duskull and Voltorb are immune to SonicBoom and can threaten Buizel back (especially Voltorb, though it has problems coming in, and probably can't take Waterfalls in the rain). Most bulky Waters aren't OHKOed by SonicBoom and can cripple/kill Buizel. (et cetera)

    Magnemite[​IMG] [​IMG]:
    Magnemite generally has problems that won't make it a good user of SonicBoom. It is slow and can't boost its Speed without Choice Scarf... and even with a Scarf it is still slower than other Scarfed SonicBoom users (and most other Scarfers). Not to mention, it is OHKOed by opposing SonicBooms with its low HP stat unless it runs max HP. It also has easily exploitable weaknesses to Vacuum Wave (aka Croagunk) and Earthquake, meaning if it misses with SonicBoom or doesn't OHKO, it will likely die.

    However, it does have decent resistances, meaning it can come in easily enough. 22 Speed may not be great, but it's fast enough to outspeed Scarfers like Machop and Porygon... (though they aren't OHKOed!). It also gets Explosion and has a nice base SpAtk, meaning it doesnt need SonicBoom to deal damage.

    Possible counters/checks for Magnemite:
    Gligar, Voltorb, Chinchou, Diglett, Croagunk, faster Scarfers, etc.

    Gligar can take a SonicBoom and is immune to Thunderbolt, though it probably needs to watch out for Flash Cannon. Voltorb resists both STABs and is immune to SonicBoom, and it can OHKO back with SonicBoom of its own. Chinchou loves Thunderbolt and can take a SonicBoom, and can set up or cripple Magnemite or attack. Diglett will trap and kill slower Magnemite or ones locked into Thunderbolt. Croagunk can't switch in but can revenge kill with Vacuum Wave.

    Spinarak [​IMG]:
    Spinarak is probably an OK user of SonicBoom, but it's not anywhere as good as Buizel or Voltorb. It has mediocre stats outside of its Attack, and pretty bad typing. It will be OHKOed by opposing SonicBoom unless it runs HP, though with SR down it will always be OHKOed. Its saving grace is that it has Agility to boost its poor Speed, as well as Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch to threaten Ghost-types. It also has Insomnia...

    Since Spinarak gets SonicBoom via breeding, it can only have Pursuit along with it as an egg move. This means no Baton Pass and no Toxic Spikes... not that they're really great options.

    Spinarak does hit 13 Speed with Jolly, and 26 after a boost is good enough... though it can't set up on like anything. It can probably run something like the following:

    Spinarak @ Life Orb
    Insomnia | Jolly
    36 HP / 196 Atk / 36 Def / 196 Spe / 36 SpDef
    - Agility
    - SonicBoom
    - Bug Bite / Shadow Sneak
    - Sucker Punch / Shadow Sneak

    It can probably also cram something like Poison Jab in there somewhere.

    Possible counters/checks for Spinarak:
    Duskull, Gastly, Gligar, Bronzor, Voltorb, Rhyhorn/Geodude, etc

    Duskull and Gastly can come in on SonicBoom and resist Bug Bite and Poison Jab. Gastly won't be OHKOed by LO Shadow Sneak (70.00% - 90.00%). It also outspeeds even +2 Spinarak with a Choice Scarf. Gligar and Bronzor can take a hit and OHKO with Stone Edge/AA or Psychic. Voltorb can do the same and is immune to SonicBoom. Rhyhorn and Geodude can also take a hit... etc

    Voltorb [​IMG]:
    In my opinion, the best user of SonicBoom... because it's the fastest! Another great selling point is that it's immune to opposing SonicBooms with Soundproof. In the current metagame, Voltorb only has a niche as a lead for setting up Rain Dance (or doing so midgame). In a metagame with SonicBoom, it becomes much more deadly as a lategame sweeper.

    The best Voltorb sets will probably be Scarf Voltorb and a lategame Voltorb sweeper. ScarfVoltorb is a great revenge killer with both Explosion and SonicBoom, and it also has STAB Thunderbolt which isn't horrible. Lategame Voltorb has the ability to trade attacks (it can run HP Ice/Grass or Sucker Punch or something in the last slot), although it loses to Scarf pokemon. The lategame Voltorb can also run Wide Lens, making SonicBoom 99% accurate. It can also run something like Charge Beam to help boost its Special Attack...

    Possible counters/checks:
    Chinchou, Scarf Gastly, Gligar, Diglett, Munchlax, Rhyhorn/Geodude, Hippopotas, etc

    Chinchou is immune to Thunderbolt and can take a SonicBoom. Scarf Gastly can come in on SonicBoom and threaten Voltorb. Gligar and Diglett are immune to Thunderbolt, and if they are Scarfed they can outspeed and OHKO with EQ. Gligar can also take a SonicBoom, while Diglett can trap and kill Voltorb for good. Munchlax isn't 2HKOed by SonicBoom and laughs at Thunderbolt. Rhyhorn, Geodude, and Hippopotas can live through a SonicBoom and are immune to Thunderbolt. They don't care for much beyond HP Grass/Water. Generally, if somethnig can survive Voltorb's SonicBoom it should win, since Voltorb is sorta frail.

    Yanma [​IMG]:

    Yanma is/should be banned even without SonicBoom in its arsenal, so who cares?
    Food For Thought:
    Does the small userbase of the move SonicBoom matter? If so, how much? Discuss.

    What is immune to SonicBoom?
    Ghost-types and pokemon with Soundproof are immune to SonicBoom... which means the following pokemon are:

    (Drifloon, Duskull, Gastly, Shuppet, Voltorb, Whismur, Mime Jr.)
    It's a shame Misdreavus had to leave isn't it...

    All of these pokemon have problems, though Gastly, Duskull, Voltorb, and Drifloon all have niches in the current metagame. Shuppet does as well... it's just not that good imo. Whismur and Mime Jr. are pretty terrible though, and can also be disregarded.

    Since SonicBoom will probably used on pokemon with a Choice Scarf, Drifloon and Gastly will probably thrive. Giving Sub Gastly a free turn is pretty scary, and often results in the death of 2 or 3 pokemon, while letting Drifloon set up later in the game means that it's probably GG. However, Drifloon has exploitable weaknesses, and will not appreciate Voltorb that isn't actually Scarfed, or coming in on Tbolt in general. Gastly is also known for its fraility and will not like taking a Thunderbolt or Aqua Jet or Waterfall accidentally. Still, they both make good checks for SonicBoom pokemon.

    Duskull is also interesting with its impressive defenses. It doesn't have great offensive capabilities and thus can't hit back very hard, but it isn't 2HKOed by (non LO) Thunderbolt from Voltorb or LO Waterfall from Buizel if its holding Oran. It can use Trick Room or something to put them at a disadvantage or just attack with Shadow Sneak.

    It is important to note that Ghost-types are already "good" in LC thanks to their immunities, making them prime candidates for dealing with threats like Machop and Mankey. SonicBoom isn't going to force people to run crappy pokemon just to combat it (ie: Stunky with Misdreavus -- although I don't think Stunky is a bad pokemon in a metagame without Misdreavus but that's just me)... but it will certainly make them more common.

    Voltorb has been discussed above... so whatever.

    Discuss if the pokemon who are immune to SonicBoom help make it more manageable.
    Why has Spikes not been mentioned?
    I did not mention Spikes as a way to wear down the opposition into SB range because... Spikes are very hard to get up in LC. The only remotely good Spiker is Omanyte, who in my opinion has better things to be doing.

    Perhaps Spiker Omanyte would become much more common in a metagame with SonicBoom allowed... discuss maybe?

    Other stuff to think about:
    - How much does SonicBoom's 90% accuracy factor into it being broken or not?
    - Would it be worth it for pokemon that are currently OHKOed by SonicBoom (with SR) to run a few extra HP EVs on their standard set?
    - Ghosts would become even more important on teams. This leads to an increase of pokemon that kill Ghost-types, like Stunky and Munchlax. Where does the metagame go from there?
    - The drawback to most Scarf moves, or most moves in general, is thathey have lots of resistances and/or immunities. SonicBoom lacks this. Does this make it overpowered in combination with its ability to 2HKO everything?

    sorta tl;dr: SonicBoom OHKOes alot of pokemon with SR support, though most standard pokemon aren't OHKOed. SonicBoom has a small userbase, but Buizel and Voltorb shine as great users of it. Ghosts (and Soundproof pokes) are immune to SonicBoom, but there are always risks inherent with the trappability of Ghosts. Also, Gastly and Drifloon can't safely come in on most attacks that aren't SonicBoom against the better SB users.

    Factors for allowing:
    - lower userbase
    - 90% accuracy
    - there are immunities to SonicBoom
    - not much is actually OHKOed

    Factors for banning:
    - SonicBoom has excellent "coverage", and at least 2HKOes everything. This is bad.

    - the few pokemon with immunities to SonicBoom can be removed pretty easily...

    I know this was a horrible read because I'm not very good at gathering my thoughts, but I thought I should get this out on the table. SonicBoom isn't as obviously broken as Dragon Rage, and there should definitely be discussion on whether or not its allowed.

    I tried to keep my personal opinions out of the rest of this thread in an attempt to make this a discussion thread and to present both sides. I probably didn't do all that well, but I tried... Try to discuss the things I labeled for discussion...
  2. Acritter


    Dec 6, 2009
    First of all, I think I can safely say without a doubt that SB, should it be allowed, would be EXTREMELY centralizing to the metagame. SB will always manage a 2hko (if it lands) and quite often OHKO with rocks, meaning that every team will have to carry a Ghost for the express purpose of absorbing SB. I find Buizel and Spinarak in particular to be dominating, seeing as they can use SB and follow up with priority for the kill, defeating anything but faster priority users. If the enemy Ghost is removed, a Buizel or Spinarak can sweep with ease.

    It seems to me that even if it isn't broken, it will still be far too centralizing to encourage good gameplay.
  3. matty

    matty I did stuff a long time ago for the site
    is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Mar 31, 2008
    No. What stops a team from running SR, Spikes and a Scarf Electrode with Sonic Boom?

    I'm all for trying new options, but I honestly see no good from allowing this.
  4. Elevator Music

    Elevator Music still not a girl, sry
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Jan 25, 2008
    Well, the fact that the only decent Spiker is Omanyte and that it's pretty impossible to get 3 layers of Spikes up is a start. And that you're going to get set up on by Gastly or Drifloon or whatever... And that max HP Munchlax would still survive that SonicBoom (even with all Spikes and SR up) and OHKO back with Earthquake.

    I mean it's a good option but that strategy still has its obvious and inherent flaws that can be played around.
  5. matty

    matty I did stuff a long time ago for the site
    is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Mar 31, 2008
    Sorry I should have expanded more in my post.

    If you get 1 layer of spikes down and SR (which is really not that hard when using Omanyte) most of the metagame is getting OHKO'd. Then add on the fact that YOUR team still has 4 empty slots to fill in to trap ghosts (aka Stunky), have fast priorty users that aren't KO'd by SB (Croagunk) and anything else that will allow your team to cut through any team, I call that pretty centralizing. I'm all for doing a few tests but I don't think its really worth the time.
  6. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Jun 28, 2008
    Who really cares whether or not it OHKOes whichever Pokemon when that isn't the threshold for something to be banned (see Honchkrow, Gallade, etc)? It's easily bannable on the grounds that it actually 2HKOes every single LC Pokemon minus Ghost (NOT MISSY ANYMORE) and Munchlax (needs Max HP aka gimped) among other shittier Pokemon that you listed.

    So yea, even if we ignored the fact that it practically OHKOes every offensive Pokemon with Stealth Rock in play, it would still be broken.
  7. Dubulous

    Dubulous I look just like Buddy Holly.
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Jun 9, 2009
    It's actually silly easy to get at least a layer of Spikes up. Pineco will get Spikes up (I'm baseing this on past experiences, but it is very bulky and it takes a very powerful super effective move to OHKO it) and probably two layers of it. Omanyte, as you mentioned, can do it easily as well. It might be worth testing with Berry Juice I suppose, but right now it is terribly broken. Basically, every game would come down to which Scarf Voltorb comes in last. Which doesn't sound like a very balanced metagame to me.

    I played your preliminary Sonicboom team a little while ago, and I will admit that I did not make the team to counter the strategy. But it was still relatively simple to draw out my ghost (Drifloon), bring in Munchlax, and kill it with Pursuit (it would have died anyway even if I had switched out coming in on Stealth Rock). I actually thought I was in a very good position to win the game, but your Scarf Voltorb came in and took it from 1-4 (iirc) to 1-0 with the snap of a finger. 90 percent accuracy is pretty good, considering that players are often willing to risk using moves with 80 percent accuracy for the bonus power (Hydro Pump over Surf for example).

    I guess I wouldn't be opposed to a test, but I don't think a metagame with Sonicboom will be very fun to play.
  8. Elevator Music

    Elevator Music still not a girl, sry
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Jan 25, 2008
    There are plenty of pokemon that aren't OHKOed by 1 layer of Spikes + SR though...

    Bronzor, Gligar, Munchlax, Chinchou, Hippopotas, Lickitung, Slowpoke, Machop, Wynaut, Rhyhorn, Phanpy, Wailmer, and Gible can all survive with appropriate HP investment. Those are the pokes on my "good" list. There's also some more (Grimer/etc who have niches even though they're not "good"). Plus the pokemon with immunities

    Fun fact: Adamant Scarf Gligar EQ OHKOes everyone but these pokemon on my good list after 1 layer of Spikes and SR:
    Bronzor, Gible (46% to OHKO), Gligar, Hippopotas, Lickitung, Lileep, Machop (40%), Mantyke, Munchlax, Paras (only defensive ones), Phanpy, Porygon, Shellder, Shroomish, Slowpoke, Snover, Taillow, Wailmer, and Wynaut. and duskull/drifloon/gastly

    notice how that's 19 (22) pokemon opposed to 13 (17)? that's 34% of pokemon on the list as opposed to 24. Is 10% really that much to you?

    let's do that with another thing even though Gligar EQ was like the first thing that popped into my head.

    Adamant Scarf Mankey CC:
    Abra (Ohkoes 87%), Bronzor, Croagunk, Gligar, Hippopotas, Machop (79%), Mantyke, Paras (defensive only), Phanpy, Shellder, Slowpoke, Stunky (87%), Venonat, Wailmer, Wynaut. plus the 3 ghosts.

    That's 15 pokes... when you factor in the immunities, the difference of pokes that can live after 1 layer of Spikes and SR is 1. Ban that Adamant CC Hoe!

    ...yeah I half cherry-picked that one (ie: I thought about it before actually just running every calc). but you can do it for like Machop DP too, and I'm sure there are others like Gastly Sludge Bomb or something.

    notice how something like this was actually in a FFT I put up?
  9. Acritter


    Dec 6, 2009
    I'd say the fact that you're forcing all these 'mons to have the investment in the first place is pretty damn centralizing.
  10. Dubulous

    Dubulous I look just like Buddy Holly.
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Jun 9, 2009
    Acritter, it actually isn't uncommon for these Pokemon to have that extra HP investment anyway with the way EVs work in Little Cup. Often times after you have maximized two stats for a Pokemon you will have spare EVs to gain extra stat points. These are put into HP a majority of the time since if Speed or Attack matters it is maximized already and it is always better to boost both defenses through HP than just one.
  11. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Jun 28, 2008
    Yet, not one of them avoids the 2HKO. Good enough for the offensive characteristic or support characteristic no doubt.
    Damn I hate to do this to you again EM, but you seem to be arguing in the opposite sides favor with this point.

    Gligar's Earthquake is one of the BEST attacks in the metagame. Gligar was a suspect. Sonicboom is 10% BETTER than Gligar's Earthquake. Does that not seem broken to you?

    It seems especially obvious when you compare the two as moves. For example, SB has NO resisters. Simply none. Earthquake will to variable damage to every Pokemon, and to be frank, Pokemon such as Paras do exist and can switch into a resisted Earthquake. Additionally, you have defensively oriented Pokemon. Your Earthquake will do shit to Phanpy, while SB will 2HKO it with ease with or without Oran.

    Another thing that is missing from your argument is the lack of needing STAB. You have Buizel, for example, who has SB and STAB Waterfall. Gligar doesn't have anything remotely like that.

    Lastly, Earthquake requires Atk investment. SB requires shit all. I can see it now: Max HP Screens Restalk sets etc with fucking SB as their only damage while they can still 2HKO everything and OHKO mostly everything.

    This is a better example, however it suffers from the same faults, if not more, as Gligar's Earthquake has.

    a) it lowers defenses. This is bad for any sweeper in Little cup.
    b) requires investment. No bulky fast powerful Scarf Mankey/Chop.
    c) These Pokemon cannot agility.
    d) They are the Pokemon's STAB attack. SB is in ADDITION to the STAB attack.
    e) Variable damage due to defense. It doesn't hit EVERY Pokemon for that much damage. There are resists (cough Gligar cough). There are just as many immunities.
    f) it is still much worse. Your analysis shows that CC is still worse.

    So while your second example was at least more relevant, I still fail to see how any of this argues against SB's Uber status.

    The only possible way I see a test happening is if Berry Juice gets voted OU (lolyaright)
  12. Sceats


    Dec 30, 2008
    Yeah, while this would make buizel fearsome as it deserves to be, this just sounds ridiculous. Nothing can switch into sonicboom apart from ghosts which sounds like a lot of centralisation to me.
  13. -Mind-


    Dec 26, 2008
    hello i have a pursuiter and a fast sonicboomer

  14. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Aug 7, 2007
    I'm inclined to think that team that did not run SonicBoom themselves or prepare for it to an extent that demonstrates extreme centralization (like running multiple ghosts with sets that make them hard to trap, or spinning away entry hazards and using many sashers/21+ HP Pokemon) would have an extremely hard time beating a team set out to abuse SonicBoom by removing ghosts and setting up a few entry hazards to clear sashers and Pokemon with just over 20 HP. And even teams that did prepare to an extreme extent would be in for a tough match, running SonicBoom still gives you 3 more moveslots and you suddenly don't need to worry about any non ghost with 20 or less HP. Being able to OHKO a huge portion of the Pokemon in the metagame and 2HKO everything else bar Ghosts and Voltorb (and Oran Munchlax with a silly EV spread) is impressive, being able to do that with a single move is what makes it killer. Dragon is the only type with coverage anything like that, but with Dragon moves you need to invest and have high base stats, opponents can use extremely bulky Pokemon rather than those that resist the moves, and Steels are much, much harder to remove than the Ghosts of Little Cup.

    I can see some pretty solid arguments saying it is very likely to be horribly broken or centralizing (or at least cause most Pokemon that get the move to end up broken and centralizing), and the counter arguments seem quite flimsy to me so I'd currently be against any official testing. If EM or someone else wanted to get a few players together and run some unofficial testing, then post some logs, it would help to avoid us running on pure theorymon.
  15. Elevator Music

    Elevator Music still not a girl, sry
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Jan 25, 2008
    I'll concede the point of not needing STAB/investment to you but you'd better concede this one to me lol

    "small userbase of SB users"
    The only pokemon that gets dual screens with SB is Magnemite. You think Magnemite doesnt have exploitable weaknesses whether or not it's behind screens? (and 5 move slots etc)

    Furthermore, do you think it's killing more than one or two pokemon max before I bring my Munchlax (after a death if it makes you not object) who can just EQ it? Or if I bring in my Voltorb or my Duskull?

    You're making it seem like the userbase of the move is way bigger than it is, and that it's given to something already stupidly good like Gligar that really doesn't need anything else to be a top pokemon. Magnemite isn't a great pokemon. It's got a niche, but it's too slow to use the move reliably. Spinarak is a horrible pokemon. It's too slow to use the move reliably AND it's got poor defenses AND bad typing (and even after all of that Duskull still laughs at it). If you let it set up an Agility then you probably deserve to lose, since I can't think of anything that really runs from Spinarak if SR is down...

    Yeah, Buizel and Voltorb are already decent. Probably Agility Buizel/Buizel in rain is gonna be its best set, and that set's sweep is STILL gonna get stopped by stuff like Chinchou and Slowpoke and whatever. Voltorb would obviously be good, but it's STILL gonna get shut down by (Rock/)Grounds who come in after a kill or by Munchlax or by Wynaut who can Mirror Coat and kill it (etc).

    None of these guys are really bulky. SonicBoom doesnt have a userbase of Munchlax, Lickitung, Duskull, Gligar, and Slowpoke. The defenses are the following:

    Buizel: 55 / 35 / 30
    Voltorb: 40 / 50 / 55
    Magnemite: 25 / 70 / 55
    Spinarak: 40 / 40 / 40

    With HP investment that they can afford to do, they're gonna get the following stats:

    Buizel: 25 / 10 / 10
    Voltorb: 23 / 12 / 12
    Magnemite: 22 / 14 / 12
    Spinarak: 23 / 11 / 11

    Voltorb and Buizel have the best overall defenses (surprise!). 25 / 10 and 23 / 12 defenses are pretty good, so here's some calcs (again I'm trying to not cherry-pick so I'm trying to do a bunch of random neutral attacks and some priority):

    vs Buizel:
    Croagunk Fake Out- 28.00% - 36.00%
    Croagunk Vacuum Wave- 28.00% - 40.00%
    0 Atk Munchlax Return- 64.00% - 84.00%
    max Atk Munchlax Return- 84.00% - 100.00%
    Gligar EQ (obviously pre set up)- 72.00% - 88.00%
    Gligar LO EQ- 96.00% - 112.00%
    Dratini ExtremeSpeed- 48.00% - 60.00%
    Timid Gastly Sludge Bomb- 72.00% - 88.00%
    Bronzor Psychic- 36.00% - 48.00%
    Diglett LO EQ- 88.00% - 108.00%
    Timid Scarf Porygon Tri-Attack: 64.00% - 76.00% (obviously Tbolt OHKOes but you don't really have a choice...)
    Jolly Scarf Machop DynamicPunch: 72.00% - 88.00%
    Meowth Fake Out: 36.00% - 48.00%
    LO Meowth Fake Out: 48.00% - 60.00%
    Guts Taillow Quick Attack: 40.00% - 52.00%

    Not many of these are really OHKOes (though a lot of them have a good shot with SR), but they're definitely strong enough to put Buizel in priority range... not that you NEED to do that.

    vs Voltorb:
    Croagunk Fake Out- 21.74% - 30.43%
    Croagunk Vacuum Wave- 30.43% - 43.48%
    0 Atk Munchlax Return- 65.22% - 78.26% (Munchlax would use EQ though which OHKOes)
    Dratini ExtremeSpeed- 47.83% - 60.87%
    Timid Gastly Sludge Bomb- 69.57% - 82.61%
    Bronzor Psychic- 30.43% - 43.48% (would actually use EQ here which does 52.17% - 69.57%)
    Timid Scarf Porygon Tri-Attack: 56.52% - 69.57%
    Jolly Scarf Machop DynamicPunch: 69.57% - 82.61%
    Chinchou Surf: 69.57% - 91.30%
    LO Chinchou Surf: 56.52% - 69.57%
    Chinchou Hydro Pump: 69.57% - 91.30%
    Meowth Fake Out: 30.43% - 43.48%
    LO Meowth Fake Out: 43.48% - 56.52%
    Guts Taillow Quick Attack: 30.43% - 43.48%

    Pretty much the same for Voltorb... I swapped some attacks because obviously Chinchou OHKOes Buizel and Gligar OHKOes Voltorb etc.

    Also, another angle that you're forgetting is that if these SB users choose to forego any Attack investment "because they don't have to" and choose to pump up their HP/defenses instead, their damage output outside of SonicBoom becomes quite poor.

    Buizel would have 13 Attack if it chose to go 236 HP / 236 Spe / 36 SpDef. Even if it chose to use Life Orb for some reason (you take recoil from SB), damage output is too poor to use... it's often weaker than SonicBoom. This may not seem like it matters, but against pokemon like Duskull and Gastly and Voltorb it's important and it'd be foolish not to take this into account.

    Waterfall vs 0 HP/0 Def Gligar: 60.87% - 78.26% (14 - 18)
    LO Waterfall vs Gligar: 60.87% - 86.96% (14 - 20)
    Aqua Jet vs Gligar: 34.78% - 52.17% (8 -12)
    Waterfall vs Duskull: 33.33% - 42.86% (with Oran this isn't even a 3HKO... Duskull can 3HKO back with Payback/Return/Frustration + Payback + SS or can fuck with you with WoW)
    Waterfall vs 36 HP Gastly: 65.00% - 80.00%
    LO Waterfall vs Gastly: 80.00% - 105.00% (2.56% chance to OHKO)
    Aqua Jet vs Gastly: 35.00% - 45.00%
    Aqua Jet vs 36 HP Diglett: 77.78% - 100.00% (2.56% to OHKO with or without SR... wierd how damage works)

    That's "not good!"... and you may think I'm proving your point but consider the following scenario:

    It's Gligar vs Buizel. Since Waterfall can't OHKO SonicBoom is the best option. Gligar will EQ you for 72.00% - 88.00% (2.56% chance OHKO with SR). Gligar will take 20 damage from SonicBoom, bringing it down to 3 HP then up to 13 with Oran. Aqua Jet will then fail to kill while Gligar can use Quick Attack and do 20.00% - 28.00%. Between Quick Attack and EQ there is a ~83.96% chance (I used tang's 2hko thingy) that Buizel will die, guarenteed with SR. That's probably not cool. If Buizel is running Oran things change a little bit, but you're still not 2HKOing with SB+Aqua Jet. It comes down to a Speed tie...

    Voltorb would also have 13 Special Attack (it would have a spread of 196 HP / 36 Def / 196 Spe / 76 SpAtk). Even Gastly can come in on a non LO Tbolt (it's OHKOed 2.56% of the time by LO Tbolt which is like 92% with SR). Drifloon can be OHKOed, but Duskull is still walling you all day (you still don't 3HKO). Opposing Voltorb can come in... though they won't be doing much back either.

    I've been doing calcs all day so forgive me for not doing them for Voltorb but umm... 13 SpAtk is bad.

    What if I use two ghosts? (oh this is a bad strategy NOW?)

    LO Sub Gastly actually has a pretty easy time with Stunky and can Explode on Munchlax. Then you can have fun with Sub Drifloon the next time a SB user tries to pop up.

    Or alternatively I could use a Voltorb of my own to hurt any opposing SB user.

    Also for the record
    Not to me no, but we established that I had a different definition of broken than most people with Misdreavus... though I don't think I'm the only one that misses her lol (come to my rescue franky/etc!)

    SonicBoom is also at least worth testing regardless of whether it's broken or not. We're not exactly wasting our time by testing it since we're doing... nothing(?) until Shoddy Battle 2 comes out. I will try to get a group of people willing to test it with me together like you said to eric because I doubt any official tests are going to happen but c'mon... give it a chance lol :(

    EDIT- for completeness sake I'm going to sum up the discussion on IRC

    If we are waiting until SB2 to test things like Berry Juice/etc, then we should test SonicBoom then too. Why?

    SonicBoom is likely to break 2 pokemon (it can break a max of 4) if it breaks any at all. Berry Juice is likely to break... so many more that that. Whether or not SB is "centralizing" is completely irrevelant considering Berry Juice changes almost everything about LC. IF we are testing BJ we should definitely test SB.
  16. ZandgaiaX


    Aug 16, 2009
    To be fair, I agree half with Elevator Music. It's worth a test, I mean cmon. It's just like testing a suspect again,

    I don't really like to Theorymon that much, and am more of a person like: "A what the heck, let's try/do this!"

    Though I do agree that with the booting of Misdreavus SB will be a bit hard to handle. But not impossible, yes Ghosts and high hp mons will get more usage. But with the boot of misdreavus other pokemon can see the daylight anyway...
  17. franky

    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Apr 12, 2009
    I don't know how we will treat Sonic Boom since it doesn't fit any of the characteristics. However, I would assume that it fits the offensive characteristics and your number proves that it "sweeps" a portion of the metagame. That is roughly 80%.
  18. Elevator Music

    Elevator Music still not a girl, sry
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Jan 25, 2008
    (almost) nothing in LC runs no HP evs

    I just was too lazy to go down through every LC poke and figure out what isn't OHKOed when its running a normal EV spread. You can disregard pokemon like caterpie and pokemon with a reaalllly small niche. That's why I narrowed it down to around 55 ish pokes (what we would consider OU).
  19. Ice-eyes

    Ice-eyes Simper Fi

    Feb 15, 2010
    I think this discussion is frankly ridiculous. The lines of argument suggest that, 'hey, wait, Sonicboom can't completely destroy everything, you might as well allow it!' However, the overcentralisation of the metagame would be severe - the methods you're suggesting to take Sonicboom on require half your team to be dedicated to stopping SonicBoom, and a dedicated SonicBoom team could probably still take your team down.

    I guess it's worth a test, but I highly doubt that it will be allowed.
  20. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    May 29, 2008
    This is the Kyogre (or rayquaza or mewtwo or groudon or w/e) argument all over again. Sure, it is POSSIBLE to prepare for it in the metagame, but preparing requires such overcentralization that it is impossible to prepare for SonicBoom without getting destroyed by the rest of the metagame.

    There is no "check" to Sonicboom. If I have a SBer out against your Pokemon with < 20 HP, you either lose a Pokemon or bring out a Ghost-type (except you need 2 ghosts if you want to cover for the fact that you'll probably get raped by a scarf stunky or cb munchlax). We don't want to turn Little Cup into the "YOU MUST RUN DOUBLE GHOST" metagame... I thought that's why we banned Misdreavus.
  21. Dracoyoshi8

    Dracoyoshi8 vendetta
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Jan 31, 2009
    Well, Spinarak can still most likely bring down Duskull. If you are switching Duskull in, a "sweeping" Spinarak will most likely Sub, making it immune to WoW. Then it can either Agility, Shadow Sneak, Sucker Punch or Bug Bite you (although Bug Bite is mostly for stealing your Oran). Although if I was running Sonicboom, I would run a set like Agility/Sub/Sonicboom/SS, so I can Sonicboom a Pokemon with, say, 23 HP and finish it off with Sneak, unless of course it has Oran, in which case I would just Sonicboom again. Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch also hit Ghosts and Mime Jr., making them even harder to counter. That means Voltorb and Whismur, who would wall this set without Sucker Punch, the only true counters.

    Buizel would be pretty good at using Sonicboom. A simple set of Sonicboom/Aqua Jet/Quick Attack/Substitute would be great. Unresisted priority combined with a move that always does over 50% to every Pokemon in Little Cup except seven is fantastic. Sub shouldn't be that hard to get up, considering what you are scaring away with Sonicboom.

    Voltorb is defiantly the best at Sonicboom, hands down. Sub/Sonicboom/Sucker Punch/Thunderbolt or Explosion would be the set to run. I already explained Sub and Sonicboom. Sucker Punch eliminates Scarf Gastly as a counter, as well as Shuppet, Drifloon and Mime Jr. to an extant. Explosion is just great overall, and Thunderbolt can hit Drifloon and Whismur. Voltorb would be pretty tricky to stop, especially if it got that Sub up.

    Magnemite is overall the worst user of Sonicboom. Pretty much a Scarf Set would be only set worth using with Sonicboom. Although a pseudo-Magenzone set of Sub/Magnet Rise/Sonicboom/Thunderbolt or Flash Cannon could work, especially against Gligars switching in. And Yanma is just damn awesome with or without Sonicboom, so I don't need to go over him.

    Believe it or not, Whismur and Voltorb (who runs would probably run Sonicboom itself) would be the best overall counters to Sonicboom users, if they use the sets I listed. Voltorb and Spinarak have SE Priority to hit Ghosts and Mime Jr. (who should only ever run Filter, since it kicks ass). Buizel could always run a move like Pursuit to hits Ghosts, as well.

    As a side note, setting up Spikes is much easier than you make it out to be. Pineco can almost always set up two layers, if not three. And you are pretty much garunteed to do so if you run both Omanyte and Pineco on a team.

    Now, of course, this is all theorymon, but then again, this thread is pretty much theorymon.

  22. Maris


    Sep 1, 2009
    hmm... lets see here... jolly Buizel in the rain hits 39 speed outspeeding ALL pokemon. of course you could (and probably will have) get some munchlax who are NOT 2koed EXcept that buizel can sometimes KO with waterfall, thus buizel is UBER if sonicboom is allowed

    same with scarf voltorb (lol) 2koing everything as long as you have stunky and munchlax support. (to prevent double ghosting)

    its simpler and better IMO to just plain ban sonicboom than ban 2 pokemon that allow more varaity in the meta.
  23. sunkirby


    Aug 12, 2009
    Uhhh. No. Scarf Voltorb wud be soooo broken. running a ghost would be mandatory (overcentralizing much?) or a soundproof. and with such good pursuiters fitting well in the metagame (houndour, stunky, munchlax, etc.) It would be easy to kill the ghost and proceed to sweep.

    No. Just no.
  24. |DarkSector|


    Jun 1, 2009
    The metagame is going to be really too much centralized and prediction less imho. These moves lower the prediction just doing skyhigh damages on things, especially if they are as fast as Voltorb or Buizel. So i've got to say no.
  25. sharktamer


    Sep 25, 2009
    Seems like a pretty ridiculous suggestion to me. Other than ghosts, I don't see what can counter anything with sonic boom. If you're running it on scarfed voltorb, you're gonna 2HKO any "counter", which will be necessary if the pokemon currently in has below 20HP, which is extremely likely. Switching in on stealth rock more than once would be almost impossible for any pokemon too.

    Also, since when was accuracy an argument? We might as well unban OHKO moves, they only have 30 accuracy after all...

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