Something that should be made clear is that the random lum berries/sleep talks aren't exclusively for Whimsicott. This meta is full of status inflicting moves, what with Zap Cannon, Inferno,
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InfernapeTropius11
get on my level
Just run based Poison Jab PH Gliscor and laugh :D
Tbh I'm surprised people haven't brought up PH mons as counters (may have missed it, but I don't think so). Breloom gets a free Sub and can then spam Focus Punch, and Gliscor can just kill it with PJab. I've also tried Specs Sleep Talk Starmie and that does a lot if it picks Hydro, and kills if it picks Blizzard.
Tbh I'm surprised people haven't brought up PH mons as counters (may have missed it, but I don't think so). Breloom gets a free Sub and can then spam Focus Punch, and Gliscor can just kill it with PJab. I've also tried Specs Sleep Talk Starmie and that does a lot if it picks Hydro, and kills if it picks Blizzard.
Breloom is a bad idea. Whimsicott usually runs either Hurricane or Moonblast as its attacking move and both completely destroy it. Poison Jab Gliscor certainly works, though.
Why poison Jab? Just use Acrobatics.
Also does anyone mention that any poke with recovery handles it? Actually I see Whimsicott as an anti meta rather than broken. I mean, it stalls in a meta where everyone use offense. Stallmons like resttalker handles it nicely.
Hi whimsicott
Crobat @ Black Sludge
Ability : Infiltrator
Evs: 44 HP / 252 Atk / 212 Spe
Nature: Jolly
- Brave Bird
- Cross Poison
- Sleep Talk
- Roost / Heat Wave / U-turn / Hypnosis (if u are swag) / whatever u fucking want
In a tier where sleep moves run rampant a sleep talker / insomnia mon is needed. Even better if it have infiltrator, becos lot of mons with sleep moves have substitute as well.
Probably Chandelure does this role better, but until green cotton is in the tier, crobat is ma guy.
Crobat @ Black Sludge
Ability : Infiltrator
Evs: 44 HP / 252 Atk / 212 Spe
Nature: Jolly
- Brave Bird
- Cross Poison
- Sleep Talk
- Roost / Heat Wave / U-turn / Hypnosis (if u are swag) / whatever u fucking want
In a tier where sleep moves run rampant a sleep talker / insomnia mon is needed. Even better if it have infiltrator, becos lot of mons with sleep moves have substitute as well.
Probably Chandelure does this role better, but until green cotton is in the tier, crobat is ma guy.
Except Talonflame outspeeds Whimsicott and has priority Brave Bird.
There is also the issue that Whimsicott can't have 252 EVs in every stat. There isn't an EV spread that allows Whimsicott to outspeed everything it needs to (Thundurus can Thunder Wave it, Mega Pinsir has Aerialiate Quick Attack, Mega Medicham has Fake Out + Bullet Punch), lay significant damage on Mega Sableye (who completely stalls it out otherwise), and obtain the bulk it needs to take neutral hits comfortably. The Sleep + Subseed set only has room for one attack, which will most certainly be Moonblast, and even if it wants to expand its coverage (and thus leave the Subseeding behind), both Fairy and Grass moves are resisted by Fire, Poison and Steel, all of which also resist U-Turn.
Also adding to Ghoul's and Reptile's lists, there are also Bug Buzz users, which are mainly Yanmega and Volcarona, both of which can seriously damage, if not kill outright, with Bug Buzz through Substitute (not to mention Volcarona commonly carries Lum Berry anyway to set up Quiver Dances). There is the move Magic Coat, which bounces back Grasswhistle and puts Whimsicott to sleep, even behind a Substitute (and many, many viable Pokemon have access to this move). Even these assume a full 6 on 6 where everyone is healthy. Throughout the match, there are going to be statused Pokemon that can easily come in on Grasswhistle (switching in Ferrothorn on a Zap Cannon, for example, makes it a near complete stop to Whimsicott). This metagame has only had its OMOTM status for a week, there will be plenty of answers to both priority and extremely fast sleep users.
Switching the subject, weather adds a neat dimension to it. Sun obviously receives the most benefits, as it not only has boosted Fire Blasts and Chlorophyll-boosted Sleep Powders, but perfectly accurate Thunders as well. Due to this, Rain receives a highly significant nerf, especially as Thunder and Hurricane have perfect accuracy in all weathers, though having boosted Hydro Pumps and Swift Swimmers with more damaging attacks mitigate this slightly. Hail seems particularly interesting, even if it doesn't buff anything directly. Hail would love to have Water types to absorb Fire-type moves, and having perfectly accurate Blizzards can help them bypass the Grass-types sent out to counter them. Abomasnow has the added benefit of being a Soundproof Grass-type that can fire off perfect accuracy Blizzards to beat any Sub-Seed strategy and then, once the Grasswhistle users are out of the way, use its Mega Stone to unleash Hail.
Are you guys hearing yourself now? You are completely and utterly missing the point I'm trying to make. Lets take a look at these counters, because yes, there are counters to Whimsicott, but very, very few of these counters are viable. Lets take a look at these soundproof mons.
Abomasnow
Bastiodon
Electrode
Mr. Mime
Bouffalant
Exploud
You know what? Only one of those pokemon is RU. The rest are PU, or in the case of Abomosnow which is PU if you don't use Snow Warning on it. Now lets take a look at Insomnia mons, actually lol, lets just list the mons who aren't PU
Honchkrow
...
Honchkrow dies to Moonblast so yeah, lets not.
Now lets do Sap sipper
Azumarill
Goodra
Bouffalant
Miltank
...
Only one of these pokemon are viable, Goodra, which can be widdled by Moonblast eventually but is otherwise a counter, and yes, sorry, I forgot about the other mons mentioned. You now have one counter to Whimsicott and a few other threats, however... When you actually look at Goodra it receives heavy competition from a plethora of walls in the tier, it's only real niche over things like Chansey is the ability to counter Whimsicott and Serperior.
Magic coat... Just... no? No pokemon, in any tier, runs Magic coat viable. Atleast nothing relevant. What are you even running it on?
Bug buzz? What? How is this any different from any other sound move, you realise both of these bug buzzers are just put to sleep? Yeah, Whimsicott isn't going to stay in but god damn.
252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Whimsicott: 192-226 (73.5 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Whimsicott: 246-290 (94.2 - 111.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Both of these pokemon are put to sleep, and then Whimsicott switches into the appropriate counters. Not to mention that these are pretty... unviable. Yanmega isn't even ranked in OU while Volcarona is easy to handle with Tornadus-Therian.
Magic guard: Again, put to sleep and u-turn out, which is the same thing it does with every other thing that isn't beaten by leech seed.
Taunt Whimsicott has access to the fastest taunt in the game. You're not taunting it if it doesn't want to.
Thundurus is either put to sleep, or it's subbed on a predicted T-wave and then Leech seeded.
Talonflame Put to sleep on the switch
Mega Sableye if Mega Sableye is running some sp.def investment with Calm mind it's a counter
Rest talk Taunt. Sub. Leech seed.
Eevee General No vital spirit user even surpasses NU so I didn't really think they were relevant, all of them are beaten if Whimsicott leech seeds them anyways.
Verdict
I can't say it's broken, it doesn't 6-0 teams on its own, nor is it an insane power house that breaks everything. But it is centralising as shit, it's literally resorting you to use magic coat or sleep talk on Tornadus-Therian. It is centralising and it provides pretty darn immense supportive capabilities, while it can 6-0 unprepared teams and stops sweeps cold.
Abomasnow
Bastiodon
Electrode
Mr. Mime
Bouffalant
Exploud
You know what? Only one of those pokemon is RU. The rest are PU, or in the case of Abomosnow which is PU if you don't use Snow Warning on it. Now lets take a look at Insomnia mons, actually lol, lets just list the mons who aren't PU
Honchkrow
...
Honchkrow dies to Moonblast so yeah, lets not.
Now lets do Sap sipper
Azumarill
Goodra
Bouffalant
Miltank
...
Only one of these pokemon are viable, Goodra, which can be widdled by Moonblast eventually but is otherwise a counter, and yes, sorry, I forgot about the other mons mentioned. You now have one counter to Whimsicott and a few other threats, however... When you actually look at Goodra it receives heavy competition from a plethora of walls in the tier, it's only real niche over things like Chansey is the ability to counter Whimsicott and Serperior.
Magic coat... Just... no? No pokemon, in any tier, runs Magic coat viable. Atleast nothing relevant. What are you even running it on?
Bug buzz? What? How is this any different from any other sound move, you realise both of these bug buzzers are just put to sleep? Yeah, Whimsicott isn't going to stay in but god damn.
252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Whimsicott: 192-226 (73.5 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Whimsicott: 246-290 (94.2 - 111.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Both of these pokemon are put to sleep, and then Whimsicott switches into the appropriate counters. Not to mention that these are pretty... unviable. Yanmega isn't even ranked in OU while Volcarona is easy to handle with Tornadus-Therian.
Magic guard: Again, put to sleep and u-turn out, which is the same thing it does with every other thing that isn't beaten by leech seed.
Taunt Whimsicott has access to the fastest taunt in the game. You're not taunting it if it doesn't want to.
Thundurus is either put to sleep, or it's subbed on a predicted T-wave and then Leech seeded.
Talonflame Put to sleep on the switch
Mega Sableye if Mega Sableye is running some sp.def investment with Calm mind it's a counter
Rest talk Taunt. Sub. Leech seed.
Eevee General No vital spirit user even surpasses NU so I didn't really think they were relevant, all of them are beaten if Whimsicott leech seeds them anyways.
Verdict
I can't say it's broken, it doesn't 6-0 teams on its own, nor is it an insane power house that breaks everything. But it is centralising as shit, it's literally resorting you to use magic coat or sleep talk on Tornadus-Therian. It is centralising and it provides pretty darn immense supportive capabilities, while it can 6-0 unprepared teams and stops sweeps cold.
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Mons with that ability:
Delibird (lol no)
Electivire
Magmortar
Primeape
Eviolite Vigoroth
Magmortar not only is immune to sleep, but obviously scares the little cottonball out with the threat of a Fire Blast to the face. But what else, I wonder, would you be using Magmortar for?
canno
formerly The Reptile
I don't think pro-ban people on the side understand what a sleep fodder is. You do know that the player facing Whimsicott has the choice of who to sleep fodder, right? This is especially true against Whimsicott, as it lacks a way to offensively pressure the sleep fodder - all it can do is Sub up and Seed as the sleep fodder will more than likely break its substitute due to its frailty until Whims just puts it to sleep. Meanwhile, other sleep users who Sub predicting the opponent to sleep fodder something can either hammer away with strong offense (Gengar can hammer the sleep fodder with Shadow Ball and Focus Blast, as it probably won't be a Gengar counter, for example)
Tell me - if Whimsicott can simply put all of its counter (that you have not acknowledged as counters) to sleep, how isn't it worst that any of the other sleep abusers? M-Altaria with Sing in theory is unstoppable - who cares if you only have Return, you just sleep their Heatran or Ferrothorn! I guess you shouldn't use Torn-T as a counter to M-Sceptile - its always asleep against it, after all. Heatran and Chansey don't really beat Gengar - they're already asleep!
Also in what universe is Whimsicott running Sub / Seed / Whistle / Moonblast / Giga Drain / Taunt / Hidden Power Fire (why not, since apparently whims can run any move that beats its counters and it is the best hit for Skarmory, Ferrothorn, and Forretress who otherwise set-up without an issues)? Because apparently Whims carries anything that would stop it from doing work.
Also Chansey does not outclass Goodra. They do completely different things and are on completely different teams. Goodra has offensive presence with its decent SpA and coverage to switch into monsters like Zard Y and Thundurus-I, and then hit back hard with the appropriate move. Chansey is a wall that should really only be in stall teams, while Goodra is more for bulky offense and has no place in stall. They're completely different.
In order to be "unprepared" for Whimsicott, you need to have a team that's "unprepared" for the meta (which has a ton of sleep users, along with other status). In other words - you have a bad team. Plain and simple.
EDIT: Hell I think Cottonee might be better than Whims with its gimmick EndeavorSeed set. At least that actually takes down 1-2 Pokemon (one to sleep one to endeavor seed)
Tell me - if Whimsicott can simply put all of its counter (that you have not acknowledged as counters) to sleep, how isn't it worst that any of the other sleep abusers? M-Altaria with Sing in theory is unstoppable - who cares if you only have Return, you just sleep their Heatran or Ferrothorn! I guess you shouldn't use Torn-T as a counter to M-Sceptile - its always asleep against it, after all. Heatran and Chansey don't really beat Gengar - they're already asleep!
Also in what universe is Whimsicott running Sub / Seed / Whistle / Moonblast / Giga Drain / Taunt / Hidden Power Fire (why not, since apparently whims can run any move that beats its counters and it is the best hit for Skarmory, Ferrothorn, and Forretress who otherwise set-up without an issues)? Because apparently Whims carries anything that would stop it from doing work.
Also Chansey does not outclass Goodra. They do completely different things and are on completely different teams. Goodra has offensive presence with its decent SpA and coverage to switch into monsters like Zard Y and Thundurus-I, and then hit back hard with the appropriate move. Chansey is a wall that should really only be in stall teams, while Goodra is more for bulky offense and has no place in stall. They're completely different.
In order to be "unprepared" for Whimsicott, you need to have a team that's "unprepared" for the meta (which has a ton of sleep users, along with other status). In other words - you have a bad team. Plain and simple.
EDIT: Hell I think Cottonee might be better than Whims with its gimmick EndeavorSeed set. At least that actually takes down 1-2 Pokemon (one to sleep one to endeavor seed)
I am in awe of your logic here.
Whimsicott, according to you...
-Puts to Sleep whatever it wants to put to sleep. This is wrong, you have been told it is wrong repeatedly, stop pretending it's true.
-Alternatively, puts literally every Pokemon on the enemy team to Sleep, which is also wrong, and is the only way you can possibly justify pretending Whimsicott just puts any and every check or counter to Sleep.
-Has 252 EVs in every stat except Attack, simultaneously. Sure.
-Has 6+ moves on it at once. (A Subseed Whimsicott carrying Taunt to deal with Resttalk or opposing Taunt is moronic, it can't do jack to Magic Guard, random Grass types, Magic Bounce, etc, because it's not carrying an attacking move at that point. Of course you can Taunt Subseed Whimsicott! If you can't, it's a shit build that's threatening nothing)
You're also acting like mentioning that things exist that can fight Whimsicott is pretending you are "forced" to use those things to fight Whimsicott, which is completely ridiculous.
You still haven't acknowledged double U-Turn (After all, nobody uses Tornadus-Therian with U-Turn. Wait, no, they do), Infiltrator (Clearly, Chandelure is unviable according to you), opposing Grass types (Because obviously all Grass types are unviable. Including Whimsicott. Waaaait a second...), Roar/Whirlwind (Heatran is obviously useless), Rapid Spin, or multi-hit move attackers as answers, unless your blanket statement dismissing the existence of widely viable counters are counted. You are still artificially bringing the focus back onto Sleep, Sound, and Grass immunity, as if they are the only things that are an answer to Whimsicott when you are the only person pushing this idea.
You are creating a strawman and attacking it, and then acting like you actually responded to things real people said. You didn't, you aren't, and your attempts to defend your claim involve enormous leaps of illogic and/or patently impossible scenarios to sustain them. Your every attempt to argue Whimsicott is overcentralizing pushes me more in the opposite direction, because it just highlights how lame Whimsicott actually is that you have to cheat to make it sound threatening. Hell, Leech Seed only has 16 PP. That's easily PP stalled via switching, no need to bring anything capable of getting past the Substitute.
Bouffalant @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sap Sipper (or soundproof)
Ev's: 252 Atk/ 160 Hp/ 96 SpD
-Head Charge
-Megahorn
-EQ
-Pursuit/StoneEdge/SuperPower
This guy says hi. Bouffalant always gets overlooked for whatever reason, but it is surprisingly useful. 95/95/95 defenses are very good, especially when complimented with an assault vest, normal typing doesn't help it much but it does have 2 immunities with Sap Sipper. And a +1 Head Charge off of 110 Atk does not feel very good at all.
Did I mention he fares very well against this little gem?
+1 252+ Atk Bouffalant Head Charge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Whimsicott: 328-387 (101.2 - 119.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
The whole point of using him is that in this meta grass moves seem to be fairly common, so if that's a problem for you them consider a Bouffalant. He switches in on a Leaf Storm, Grass Whistle, Leech Seed, Giga Drain, whatever, and then either kills the user or destroys a switchin. Here's him against Mega Sceptile, Venusaur, and Serperior.
And to make his mark in this meta further, he fares pretty well against Zap Cannon users, not caring about the speed drop and KOing back. His only issue is getting that +1 sometimes, so if you prefer to run a choice band go ahead. His other moves are just coverage, so keep in mind he can use those too. All calcs are with Head Charge, his STAB
Ability: Sap Sipper (or soundproof)
Ev's: 252 Atk/ 160 Hp/ 96 SpD
-Head Charge
-Megahorn
-EQ
-Pursuit/StoneEdge/SuperPower
This guy says hi. Bouffalant always gets overlooked for whatever reason, but it is surprisingly useful. 95/95/95 defenses are very good, especially when complimented with an assault vest, normal typing doesn't help it much but it does have 2 immunities with Sap Sipper. And a +1 Head Charge off of 110 Atk does not feel very good at all.
Did I mention he fares very well against this little gem?
+1 252+ Atk Bouffalant Head Charge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Whimsicott: 328-387 (101.2 - 119.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
The whole point of using him is that in this meta grass moves seem to be fairly common, so if that's a problem for you them consider a Bouffalant. He switches in on a Leaf Storm, Grass Whistle, Leech Seed, Giga Drain, whatever, and then either kills the user or destroys a switchin. Here's him against Mega Sceptile, Venusaur, and Serperior.
+1 252+ Atk Bouffalant Head Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Sceptile: 364-429 (129.5 - 152.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Mega Sceptile Dragon Pulse vs. 160 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Bouffalant: 96-114 (25.8 - 30.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
_____
+1 252+ Atk Bouffalant Head Charge vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 180-213 (49.4 - 58.5%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 160 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Bouffalant: 73-87 (19.6 - 23.4%) -- possible 5HKO
_____
OH NO SERPERIOR GOT OFF A LEAF STORM CUZ I FORGOT TO SWITCH IN
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 160 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Bouffalant: 105-125 (28.3 - 33.6%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO
Never mind we're good.
+1 252+ Atk Bouffalant Head Charge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 300-354 (102.7 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Mega Sceptile Dragon Pulse vs. 160 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Bouffalant: 96-114 (25.8 - 30.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
_____
+1 252+ Atk Bouffalant Head Charge vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 180-213 (49.4 - 58.5%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 160 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Bouffalant: 73-87 (19.6 - 23.4%) -- possible 5HKO
_____
OH NO SERPERIOR GOT OFF A LEAF STORM CUZ I FORGOT TO SWITCH IN
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 160 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Bouffalant: 105-125 (28.3 - 33.6%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO
Never mind we're good.
+1 252+ Atk Bouffalant Head Charge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 300-354 (102.7 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And to make his mark in this meta further, he fares pretty well against Zap Cannon users, not caring about the speed drop and KOing back. His only issue is getting that +1 sometimes, so if you prefer to run a choice band go ahead. His other moves are just coverage, so keep in mind he can use those too. All calcs are with Head Charge, his STAB
+1 252+ Atk Bouffalant Head Charge vs. 248 HP / 64 Def Zapdos: 306-360 (79.8 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Zapdos Zap Cannon vs. 160 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Bouffalant: 100-118 (26.9 - 31.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
_____
+1 252+ Atk Bouffalant Head Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 364-429 (113.3 - 133.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Raikou Zap Cannon vs. 160 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Bouffalant: 126-148 (33.9 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 SpA Zapdos Zap Cannon vs. 160 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Bouffalant: 100-118 (26.9 - 31.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
_____
+1 252+ Atk Bouffalant Head Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 364-429 (113.3 - 133.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Raikou Zap Cannon vs. 160 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Bouffalant: 126-148 (33.9 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
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For the sake of argument, I will only address the points that I specifically brought up (I know nobody's going anywhere with suggesting Insomnia/Vital Spirit Pokemon).
And since you asked, the OU viable Pokemon that have access to it are:
Alakazam (+ its Mega forme), Alomomola, Azelf, Mega Lopunny, Celebi (which has Natural Cure, so it doesn't even care about Sleep), Clefable, Cresselia, Mega Gardevoir/Gallade, Hoopa-U, Jellicent, Jirachi, Latias/Latios, Magnezone, Mega Medicham, Porygon2, Reuniclus, Slowbro/Slowking, Starmie, Tentacruel, Togekiss, and Victini.
This does not mean that any of them will have them on a standard set, or that it's likely that they will be used on even a regular occasion, but you have a team to work around the move that would be replaced, and all it takes is one Magic Coat on your Grasswhistle before your Whimsicott is essentially taken out of the battle. Whimsicott is not a Pokemon that can withstand several turns of being fodder.
Whimsicott only outspeeds Thundurus if it runs max speed or close to it. If it does, then Fake Out and Extremespeed will severely limit the amount of times it can come in and start its sleep cycle. I suppose between double switching, sacrifices, slow U-turns, powder moves, and Dragon moves provide enough cover for Whimsicott to switch in, but hope you don't predict wrong and have to eat a hit upon switching in.
Your argument completely misses the point of sleep fodder. The purpose of sleep fodder is to bring in a Pokemon that's least impacted by falling asleep (be it a Restalker or whichever Pokemon is least likely to make a substantial impact), switch to whichever threat your team is about to face, and bring it back when there's not a significant threat of real harm. If another Pokemon is asleep, then Whimsicott loses nearly the entirety of its threat. Volcarona comes in on Whimsicott's Substitute while another Pokemon is asleep? Whimsicott has to switch out (and lose the HP it spent in the process) while Volcarona Quiver Dances and poses a threat (and obviously throughout the match one team is going to scout potential responses to certain threats. You don't just send in Volcarona wily-nily when the other side has a healthy Assault Vest Tornadus-T in the wings).
It's a hard Pokemon to switch into, sure, but so is Gengar, Mega Sceptile, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Altaria, Chlorophyll Victrebell, and every other Pokemon combining speed, power and a sleep move. It is no more centralizing a threat than any of the Pokemon I have listed. I'll state this again, this metagame has only had its status for a week, once the initial hype dies down, more and more sleep threats will arise, and more and more ways to deal with sleep will come about.
Nobody runs Magic Coat in OU because status is not nearly as much of a factor as it is in this metagame. In the OU environment, nobody has to worry about perfect accuracy Sing/Hypnosis/Grasswhistle/Sleep Powder, the likes of which are accessible to a fairly significant portion of Pokemon. If sleep is going to be a large portion of the metagame, then Magic Coat can be seen as a viable moveslot option to direct the sleep back at the opponent.
And since you asked, the OU viable Pokemon that have access to it are:
Alakazam (+ its Mega forme), Alomomola, Azelf, Mega Lopunny, Celebi (which has Natural Cure, so it doesn't even care about Sleep), Clefable, Cresselia, Mega Gardevoir/Gallade, Hoopa-U, Jellicent, Jirachi, Latias/Latios, Magnezone, Mega Medicham, Porygon2, Reuniclus, Slowbro/Slowking, Starmie, Tentacruel, Togekiss, and Victini.
This does not mean that any of them will have them on a standard set, or that it's likely that they will be used on even a regular occasion, but you have a team to work around the move that would be replaced, and all it takes is one Magic Coat on your Grasswhistle before your Whimsicott is essentially taken out of the battle. Whimsicott is not a Pokemon that can withstand several turns of being fodder.
Whimsicott only outspeeds Thundurus if it runs max speed or close to it. If it does, then Fake Out and Extremespeed will severely limit the amount of times it can come in and start its sleep cycle. I suppose between double switching, sacrifices, slow U-turns, powder moves, and Dragon moves provide enough cover for Whimsicott to switch in, but hope you don't predict wrong and have to eat a hit upon switching in.
Your argument completely misses the point of sleep fodder. The purpose of sleep fodder is to bring in a Pokemon that's least impacted by falling asleep (be it a Restalker or whichever Pokemon is least likely to make a substantial impact), switch to whichever threat your team is about to face, and bring it back when there's not a significant threat of real harm. If another Pokemon is asleep, then Whimsicott loses nearly the entirety of its threat. Volcarona comes in on Whimsicott's Substitute while another Pokemon is asleep? Whimsicott has to switch out (and lose the HP it spent in the process) while Volcarona Quiver Dances and poses a threat (and obviously throughout the match one team is going to scout potential responses to certain threats. You don't just send in Volcarona wily-nily when the other side has a healthy Assault Vest Tornadus-T in the wings).
It's a hard Pokemon to switch into, sure, but so is Gengar, Mega Sceptile, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Altaria, Chlorophyll Victrebell, and every other Pokemon combining speed, power and a sleep move. It is no more centralizing a threat than any of the Pokemon I have listed. I'll state this again, this metagame has only had its status for a week, once the initial hype dies down, more and more sleep threats will arise, and more and more ways to deal with sleep will come about.
Tagging The Immortal. The Dynamic Punch ban confirmed here is still not live. :(
Linking the post just in case it got lost in the shuffle of talking about Whimsicott.
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On an unrelated note, I'm pleasantly surprised by how useful Lanturn is. I'm running a Specially Defensive version, and it only takes about 30% from Tornadus-Therian's Life Orb Focus Blast, which is as hard-hitting as it can get without going mixed, while Lanturn resists Hurricane (Which is fairly widespread) heals off Zap Cannon (And is immune to the Paralysis if it's coming off of Mega Ampharos), resists Inferno and has access to Heal Bell to cure itself and statused allies in one go (Such as your Sleeping buddy after you've cleared out Whimsicott or Mew or whatever), and just generally operates as a surprisingly useful Special wall. It can spread Paralysis with Thunder while getting in good damage (No Zap Cannon, alas), spread Burns with Scald, and Blizzard lets it rip up a number of Pokemon that would otherwise fearlessly switch in on it, most notably Grass and Dragon types. (Whimsicott included) You can, of course, run Volt Switch if you want it to act as a pivot instead. Its Physical bulk is not so hot, but with maxed HP EVs it's good enough that it comfortably survive U-Turns, a single Psyshock, and myriad other Defense-hitting options Special attackers might run. I've found it particularly valuable for walling Zapdos, which basically has to either be running Toxic or fish for a Burn with Heat Wave. Its Special bulk is also high enough that even Earth Power off of Heatran is only a 3HKO.
The weaknesses to Ground and Grass are overall fairly tolerable, because Pokemon of those types are scared to switch into it and it wouldn't be good for it to stay in on most instance anyway, especially of Ground. Pair it up with a Flying type -maybe Physically Defensive Zapdos?- and you've got something of a stall core going on.
Linking the post just in case it got lost in the shuffle of talking about Whimsicott.
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On an unrelated note, I'm pleasantly surprised by how useful Lanturn is. I'm running a Specially Defensive version, and it only takes about 30% from Tornadus-Therian's Life Orb Focus Blast, which is as hard-hitting as it can get without going mixed, while Lanturn resists Hurricane (Which is fairly widespread) heals off Zap Cannon (And is immune to the Paralysis if it's coming off of Mega Ampharos), resists Inferno and has access to Heal Bell to cure itself and statused allies in one go (Such as your Sleeping buddy after you've cleared out Whimsicott or Mew or whatever), and just generally operates as a surprisingly useful Special wall. It can spread Paralysis with Thunder while getting in good damage (No Zap Cannon, alas), spread Burns with Scald, and Blizzard lets it rip up a number of Pokemon that would otherwise fearlessly switch in on it, most notably Grass and Dragon types. (Whimsicott included) You can, of course, run Volt Switch if you want it to act as a pivot instead. Its Physical bulk is not so hot, but with maxed HP EVs it's good enough that it comfortably survive U-Turns, a single Psyshock, and myriad other Defense-hitting options Special attackers might run. I've found it particularly valuable for walling Zapdos, which basically has to either be running Toxic or fish for a Burn with Heat Wave. Its Special bulk is also high enough that even Earth Power off of Heatran is only a 3HKO.
The weaknesses to Ground and Grass are overall fairly tolerable, because Pokemon of those types are scared to switch into it and it wouldn't be good for it to stay in on most instance anyway, especially of Ground. Pair it up with a Flying type -maybe Physically Defensive Zapdos?- and you've got something of a stall core going on.
Whimsicott has to go. Counters ≠ not broken. Whimsicott forces you to essentially be on your toes at all times. Being forced to run specialized counters that usually do little else and take up a team slot is not the sign of a healthy metagame. It is overly centralizing, can decide games at team preview, encourages results that rely on luck (getting a 1 turn sleep vs a 3 turn sleep), and is just not fun to have in the tier.
And if a sweeper threatens Whimsicott and tries to set up, it risks getting hit by Stun Spore. While Whimsicott will never fit all possible moves to outplay its checks, you're still forced to scout the moveset it runs (which is likely Grasswhistle, Sub and any two of Encore, Stun Spore, Moonblast, Hurricane, U-Turn, Leech Seed and Giga Drain) in order to be able to counter it.
I need to get something clear that's been bothering me about this discussion.
"No one uses it in standard" or "if you resort to using NU trash then that's over-centralizing" is a terrible argument. This is not standard. If none of the sleep-immune mons are viable in standard it's because they're outclassed by mons with similar roles, not because they're bad. Magmortar, Electivire and Gourgiest have distinct flaws that mean other mons are usually better choices than them, and their sleep-immunity is not a noteworthy feature...in normal OU. Sleep-immunity isn't valuable in standard because there are exactly two viable sleep users, and both of them are blocked by various Grass types and random Overcoat users. If nearly everything had perfectly accurate sleep moves (like, I don't know, this meta) then I wouldn't be surprised if those three were suddenly considered somewhat viable because their flaws are compensated by their sleep immunity. It doesn't make them flawless, it just gives them a niche that they lacked.
Imagine if, like Toxic, Will o' Wisp had universal distribution. You know who would probably be used in OU? Floatzel and Huntail, two "trash" Pokemon that suddenly have a niche of avoiding ever-present burns. You'd actually have a valid reason to weigh the pros and cons between them and Azumaril as physical Water type. Or how about this -- it's Gen 5 and I just made an OM called "Defog Universe." In it, Defog now clears the hazards on the field. Would you all be saying "Why are you using a terrible NU mon like Mandibuzz? Nobody uses Defog in standard" or "if you have to resort to using unviable mons like Bisharp just because of Defiant, then Defog is over-centralizing, it should be banned." It sounds silly because Gamefreak already made this OM (it's called X and Y), but that's basically what people are doing right now.
And finally -- Whimsicott. Most of people's complaints...well, apply to Whimsicott in general. Really the only thing that changed is that that it got a priority sleep move, which don't get me wrong, is really great, but a lot of Pokemon have fast sleep moves now. Other than that, this is eerily similar to the BW Whimsicott hype, where it was touted as one of the most dominating Pokemon in OU before quietly dropping to RU. People seriously can't beat SubSeed? SubSeed is ass. Let me quote this line from the BW strategy dex (bold is theirs not mine): "It is strongly advised to not use the SubSeed combination on Whimsicott under any circumstances, as it is walled by a plethora of Pokemon, mainly Grass-types, and generally ends up being a waste of a teamslot." Yes, it can do other things. But aside from Grass Whistle, none of them are exclusive to Whimsicott in NGG. Like standard, it's annoying, occasionally useful, and not much else.
And if people are getting salty about sleep moves in general, go play some Ubers and learn a bit about Lum Berries and random Sleep Talk users. It turns out you can have metas where sleep moves are more prevalent but the whole world isn't turned upside down.
"No one uses it in standard" or "if you resort to using NU trash then that's over-centralizing" is a terrible argument. This is not standard. If none of the sleep-immune mons are viable in standard it's because they're outclassed by mons with similar roles, not because they're bad. Magmortar, Electivire and Gourgiest have distinct flaws that mean other mons are usually better choices than them, and their sleep-immunity is not a noteworthy feature...in normal OU. Sleep-immunity isn't valuable in standard because there are exactly two viable sleep users, and both of them are blocked by various Grass types and random Overcoat users. If nearly everything had perfectly accurate sleep moves (like, I don't know, this meta) then I wouldn't be surprised if those three were suddenly considered somewhat viable because their flaws are compensated by their sleep immunity. It doesn't make them flawless, it just gives them a niche that they lacked.
Imagine if, like Toxic, Will o' Wisp had universal distribution. You know who would probably be used in OU? Floatzel and Huntail, two "trash" Pokemon that suddenly have a niche of avoiding ever-present burns. You'd actually have a valid reason to weigh the pros and cons between them and Azumaril as physical Water type. Or how about this -- it's Gen 5 and I just made an OM called "Defog Universe." In it, Defog now clears the hazards on the field. Would you all be saying "Why are you using a terrible NU mon like Mandibuzz? Nobody uses Defog in standard" or "if you have to resort to using unviable mons like Bisharp just because of Defiant, then Defog is over-centralizing, it should be banned." It sounds silly because Gamefreak already made this OM (it's called X and Y), but that's basically what people are doing right now.
And finally -- Whimsicott. Most of people's complaints...well, apply to Whimsicott in general. Really the only thing that changed is that that it got a priority sleep move, which don't get me wrong, is really great, but a lot of Pokemon have fast sleep moves now. Other than that, this is eerily similar to the BW Whimsicott hype, where it was touted as one of the most dominating Pokemon in OU before quietly dropping to RU. People seriously can't beat SubSeed? SubSeed is ass. Let me quote this line from the BW strategy dex (bold is theirs not mine): "It is strongly advised to not use the SubSeed combination on Whimsicott under any circumstances, as it is walled by a plethora of Pokemon, mainly Grass-types, and generally ends up being a waste of a teamslot." Yes, it can do other things. But aside from Grass Whistle, none of them are exclusive to Whimsicott in NGG. Like standard, it's annoying, occasionally useful, and not much else.
And if people are getting salty about sleep moves in general, go play some Ubers and learn a bit about Lum Berries and random Sleep Talk users. It turns out you can have metas where sleep moves are more prevalent but the whole world isn't turned upside down.
One might disagree with the assertion that "SubSeed is ass". However, the rest of this is perfect.
And Magmortar? Thanks to being a Fire-type, Whimsicott cannot touch it. Plus it's a decently-powerful Fire-type with a pretty decent movepool (including Thunderbolt, a combination very few Fire types get). So it's not like you're reaching into the bottom of the barrel to counter Whimsicott. (And, as mentioned, Sleep Talk exists.)
Why are you acting like the BW strategy dex is relevant to this at all?
Let me add my two-cents to this.
First of all, SLEEP CLAUSE EXISTS. Are you sure this is Smogon? Because most people in this thread don't seem to understand this exists. Whimsicott can't put every one of your mons to sleep. Just send in some sleep fodder, and then something that can counter Whimiscott, such as Venusaur. This especially works if you have a Heal Bell/Aromatherapy user. So you aren't forced to run Magmortar or something.
Now, on to Whimsicott.
When one of your Pokemon is asleep, Whimsicott goes from a god to like it was before: Just plain annoying. But this time, it now basically has just three moves, because, thanks to Sleep Clause, one of its moves does nothing. Whimsicott's dual Grass/Fairy typing is also a dual-edged sword: It grants some nifty resistances and an immunity, but gives it a 4x weakness to Poison, along with a large plethora of other weaknesses. As soon as Whimsicott puts your fodder to sleep, it can easily be countered, even with Sub up. Here is one prime example.
Venusaur-Mega @ Venusaurite
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 232 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 20 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Grass Whistle / Synthesis
- Sludge Bomb
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Fire]
When your sleep fodder is, well, asleep, Mega Venusaur stops Whimsicott cold. It resists both of its STABs, is immune to Leech Seed, and can OHKO it with Sludge Bomb. While he doesn't have access to Prankster, Mega Venusaur has access to a no-miss Grass Whistle, so you can put Whimsicott or another mon to sleep, but if you'd rather have recovery, then Synthesis is your friend. Giga Drain is for STAB, and HP Fire is for simple coverage.
First of all, SLEEP CLAUSE EXISTS. Are you sure this is Smogon? Because most people in this thread don't seem to understand this exists. Whimsicott can't put every one of your mons to sleep. Just send in some sleep fodder, and then something that can counter Whimiscott, such as Venusaur. This especially works if you have a Heal Bell/Aromatherapy user. So you aren't forced to run Magmortar or something.
Now, on to Whimsicott.
When one of your Pokemon is asleep, Whimsicott goes from a god to like it was before: Just plain annoying. But this time, it now basically has just three moves, because, thanks to Sleep Clause, one of its moves does nothing. Whimsicott's dual Grass/Fairy typing is also a dual-edged sword: It grants some nifty resistances and an immunity, but gives it a 4x weakness to Poison, along with a large plethora of other weaknesses. As soon as Whimsicott puts your fodder to sleep, it can easily be countered, even with Sub up. Here is one prime example.
Venusaur-Mega @ Venusaurite
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 232 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 20 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Grass Whistle / Synthesis
- Sludge Bomb
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Fire]
When your sleep fodder is, well, asleep, Mega Venusaur stops Whimsicott cold. It resists both of its STABs, is immune to Leech Seed, and can OHKO it with Sludge Bomb. While he doesn't have access to Prankster, Mega Venusaur has access to a no-miss Grass Whistle, so you can put Whimsicott or another mon to sleep, but if you'd rather have recovery, then Synthesis is your friend. Giga Drain is for STAB, and HP Fire is for simple coverage.
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SpartanMalice
Y'all jokers must be crazy
Replace Sleep Powder with Grasswhistle on Mega Venusaur and you're golden. It doesn't need Sleep Powder when it has access to that (and can either put cotton to sleep through a sub if you foddered something or force it out and send something else to sleep).
I didn't know Venusaur got Grass Whistle. Edited, thank you!
I just run an Assault Vest Magmortar to rid myself of all that sleep bullshit. Works decently enough, but you really need to run max HP on it which is annoying as that makes it fairly slow. It hits fairly hard however, with Fire Blast and Focus Blast coming from 123 SpA, so that is a plus. Thunderbolt is nice to hit Water-types and some other things and the last slot is just filler, but I run Mach Punch. Earthquake is nice too, or even Psychic or Hidden Power Grass if you need to remove something specific.
I quoted that portion because I happened to notice it and thought it was funny. But as a side note, the XY dex doesn't even mention SubSeed as an option. In general, SubSeed has been considered an unviable strategy on any Pokemon for the past two generations. It requires half your moveset and is very easy to counter. Even Whimsicott, who you think would be the best user, benefits more from all its other sets. The only reason it kind of works here is because it can sleep something first in order to not get annihilated while setting seeds, but there are still way too many answers to it.
I realize I just got through saying "we should not judge viability based on standard," but nothing about SubSeed itself has changed other than Leech Seed rising to perfect accuracy.
Magmortar has 125 SpAttk. I think that sounds like a great set, and appreciate the creativity applied to beat a mon rather than ban it.
Mega Venusaur does sound like a great counter to a few threats but I would really prefer my Mega slot to be either CharY or MegaMetagross. CharY is, of course, awesome, utilizing the strongest unboosted Inferno (cuz Sun, otherwise specs Chandelure) which is wonderful in this meta for dispatching ever-present Steel and grass types and crippling switchins. Personally, my first team in this meta has MegaGross, and I haven't changed him out since. I ran DynamicPunch as long as I could (just because it's his best coverage move) and now I had to switch to Hammer Arm (ugh speed drop), but still he is reliable with Meteor Mash to destroy all Fairies, rock and ice types. Lovin MegaGross