thesecondbest
Just Kidding I'm First
Origin will be balanced.. I mean it was almost dropped to OU!!!
jk yeah ban griseous orb
jk yeah ban griseous orb
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NO STATUS
- Thread starter The Immortal
- Start date
After using Giratina for a while, it's not that bad I think. Sucker Punch and Knock Off weakness really hinders it. Unlike Lugia, it's kind of slow, only 90 Speed. Wobbuffet proof is nice, but it's definitely beatable. Imo, Lugia is harder to wear down because of Multiscale, though Giratina has more abusable STAB moves.
I'm thinking of A in Viability Rankings placement for now. It performs better than Lugia I think, because of abusable STABs. Any other thoughts?
Edit: I'm also thinking of Lugia to A-. It's very good. I underestimated it before. Having a wide coverage and hard to wear down because of Multiscale makes it a pain to beat. It's also fast with 110 Speed. It's downside is Sucker Punch weak and lower than average offenses. It checks so many things, like Giratina did. Any thoughts?
Edit 2: the more I use Giratina, the more I think "it acts like Aegislash when it was OU, but less powerful and annoying. It's used as a blanket check to tons of the threats, but with less power and no King's Shield. A+ is more appropriate I think.
Edit 3: I put Giratina in A+ and move down Mega Metagross in A. Mega Metagross is very good, but has some crippling weakness.
I'm thinking of A in Viability Rankings placement for now. It performs better than Lugia I think, because of abusable STABs. Any other thoughts?
Edit: I'm also thinking of Lugia to A-. It's very good. I underestimated it before. Having a wide coverage and hard to wear down because of Multiscale makes it a pain to beat. It's also fast with 110 Speed. It's downside is Sucker Punch weak and lower than average offenses. It checks so many things, like Giratina did. Any thoughts?
Edit 2: the more I use Giratina, the more I think "it acts like Aegislash when it was OU, but less powerful and annoying. It's used as a blanket check to tons of the threats, but with less power and no King's Shield. A+ is more appropriate I think.
Edit 3: I put Giratina in A+ and move down Mega Metagross in A. Mega Metagross is very good, but has some crippling weakness.
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Laxpras
One small yeet for man, one giant yeet for mankind
Giratina switches in on so many things and still has good offense to hit back. I agree with A+.
Lugia is underrated and can be used as a defensive pivot with future sight almost like slowking, or multiscale weakness policy would be nice since multiscale wont break on hazards. A- or even A makes sense for Lugia.
Moved Lugia to A- and Dugtrio to B+.
Some nominations to pokes I haven't ranked yet.
Starmie: a fast Special Attacker with wide coverage. Weakness being frail and Sucker Punch weak. Possibly B.
Thundurus: It's basically slower, more frail Raikou but has an advantage of being immune to Ground. Possibly B-.
Lucario. Gets three priorities (Extremespeed, Bullet Punch, Vacuum Wave) and a good Fighting STAB. I think this poke has potential, though Dragonite outclasses it as an Espeeder. Possibly C+.
Mega Charizard-X: Yeah, it can't Dragon Dance and Roost anymore, but still has a powerful Flare Blitz, Earthquake and Dragon Claw. Can be a nice surprise to people who expects Zard Y when he/she Charizard in team preview. I never used it, so I need input for this one, but as far as I see, it isn't bad. Possible B+?
Mega Altaria: Same problem as Mega Charizard-X, can't use set up moves. Unlike Charizard, this is slow, only got 80 Speed. I also don't know because I never used this. Possible C+?
Some nominations to pokes I haven't ranked yet.
Starmie: a fast Special Attacker with wide coverage. Weakness being frail and Sucker Punch weak. Possibly B.
Thundurus: It's basically slower, more frail Raikou but has an advantage of being immune to Ground. Possibly B-.
Lucario. Gets three priorities (Extremespeed, Bullet Punch, Vacuum Wave) and a good Fighting STAB. I think this poke has potential, though Dragonite outclasses it as an Espeeder. Possibly C+.
Mega Charizard-X: Yeah, it can't Dragon Dance and Roost anymore, but still has a powerful Flare Blitz, Earthquake and Dragon Claw. Can be a nice surprise to people who expects Zard Y when he/she Charizard in team preview. I never used it, so I need input for this one, but as far as I see, it isn't bad. Possible B+?
Mega Altaria: Same problem as Mega Charizard-X, can't use set up moves. Unlike Charizard, this is slow, only got 80 Speed. I also don't know because I never used this. Possible C+?
Char X has surprise value, and it's good for maintaining offensive presence while taking on boltbeam far better than Char Y. It also does a lot more damage with Dragon Tail than Char Y. I'd have to calc, but I think it can run Thunder Punch if you need it to handle Water-types. Essentially, it trades Char Y's offensive prowess for a potentially very convenient defensive synergy.
It's not bad at all, though competing with Char Y definitively keeps it out of the A rankings. B+ seems okay.
Removed Heracross from B+. It doesn't do any good and it's outclassed by other Fighting types, namely Terrakion and Lucario.
Heracross is not outclassed by Lucario as Lucario needs setup to deal damage and can't pressure Scald users with Guts CB boosted Close Combats and Megahorns
idrc where it's ranked but it should be higher than Lucario
idrc where it's ranked but it should be higher than Lucario
Since the thread is dead, I should revive it.
Added Mega Charizard-X to B+ and Starmie to B. Mega Charizard-X is still pretty good, being able to take boltbeam combination better and being a surprise factor for peopl who thinks about Zard Y.
Also added Starmie to B. Being a fast boltbeamer makes it useful already. Downside being frail and Sucker Punch weak. Otherwise, it's not a bad poke I think.
Also, The Immortal told me that he need more comments for Giratina, since we're testing it. So I appreciate if we discuss more about Giratina, whether it's broken or not.
Added Mega Charizard-X to B+ and Starmie to B. Mega Charizard-X is still pretty good, being able to take boltbeam combination better and being a surprise factor for peopl who thinks about Zard Y.
Also added Starmie to B. Being a fast boltbeamer makes it useful already. Downside being frail and Sucker Punch weak. Otherwise, it's not a bad poke I think.
Also, The Immortal told me that he need more comments for Giratina, since we're testing it. So I appreciate if we discuss more about Giratina, whether it's broken or not.
DoW
formally Death on Wings
I haven't played a huge amount of No Status, however it's a fun meta and if more comments are needed I'll share my thoughts.
I honestly haven't found Giratina to be broken. It's strong, and bulky, but there's a number of strong bulky threats such as Kyurem-B, Scizor or Landorus-T and I find these generally have to run more offensive sets in order to be viable. I only really know how my rain team deals with it due to limited knowledge of the Meta, however I find that my Amoonguss tanks its attacks reasonably well while other pokemon such as Kingdra do decent levels of damage, with Specs Draco Meteor OHKOing the majority of the time. In terms of 1v1s, it and its opponent will generally be capable of 2HKOing each other, however Giratina is slow and weak to Sucker Punch meaning that it can often struggle in situations such as these. It's also counter-proof and can't be trapped by things like Dugtrio, helping against the trappers that can be very strong in this meta.
I honestly haven't found Giratina to be broken. It's strong, and bulky, but there's a number of strong bulky threats such as Kyurem-B, Scizor or Landorus-T and I find these generally have to run more offensive sets in order to be viable. I only really know how my rain team deals with it due to limited knowledge of the Meta, however I find that my Amoonguss tanks its attacks reasonably well while other pokemon such as Kingdra do decent levels of damage, with Specs Draco Meteor OHKOing the majority of the time. In terms of 1v1s, it and its opponent will generally be capable of 2HKOing each other, however Giratina is slow and weak to Sucker Punch meaning that it can often struggle in situations such as these. It's also counter-proof and can't be trapped by things like Dugtrio, helping against the trappers that can be very strong in this meta.
I played a few games with you Articuno I that rain team is fun haha. I agree completely, gira is not broken at all imo, chopin doesn't even have it in S currently. It's a powerful bulky/offensive threat, but its definitely beatable. It's also a healthy addition to the meta as a wobb counter imo. In general it's just a threat, but not broken.
It's time for the next test... dropping Blaziken (not Mega)
DoW
formally Death on Wings
Just for clarification, this means Blazikenite is being added to the banlist? I also find it interesting that LO Blaziken and Mega Blaziken have similar damage outputs, with the main differences being bulk and, in a meta where it can't protect first turn, speed.
252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 153-183 (36.4 - 43.5%) -- 98.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 162-192 (38.5 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (note this is adamant whereas the LO was Jolly).
In any case, without having protect and in a meta where things like Talonflame, Azumarill, Lando-T, Slowbro and Giratina are floating around, I don't expect this to be broken. It's also worth noting that Blaziken won't 2HKO max def Wobbuffet, and I'm looking forward to seeing some Zard Y + Blaziken teams, which could be very powerful if they manage to get Blaziken in.
Finally, it'll be extremely easy to wear down through Flare Blitz recoil, LO recoil and chip damage, not to mention how frail it is: 4 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blaziken: 234-276 (77.7 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 153-183 (36.4 - 43.5%) -- 98.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 162-192 (38.5 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (note this is adamant whereas the LO was Jolly).
In any case, without having protect and in a meta where things like Talonflame, Azumarill, Lando-T, Slowbro and Giratina are floating around, I don't expect this to be broken. It's also worth noting that Blaziken won't 2HKO max def Wobbuffet, and I'm looking forward to seeing some Zard Y + Blaziken teams, which could be very powerful if they manage to get Blaziken in.
Finally, it'll be extremely easy to wear down through Flare Blitz recoil, LO recoil and chip damage, not to mention how frail it is: 4 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blaziken: 234-276 (77.7 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
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I'm using Choice specs Giratina and it's actually very strong.
Its switching-in ability is incredible.It has many resistances and immunities,and also very tough.It can switch-in to Charizard-Y, Serperior and so many pokes. Even adamant banded Talonflame can't 2HKO HP252 Giratina with brave bird.
Also, its shadow ball is very useful(it can 2HKO many pokes and not resisted by regen pokes) unless there's no dark type and draco meteor can deal great damage.
It's not fast and often caught by dark type pokes with pursuit(not 1HKOed though), but I think it should reserve S rank.
Its switching-in ability is incredible.It has many resistances and immunities,and also very tough.It can switch-in to Charizard-Y, Serperior and so many pokes. Even adamant banded Talonflame can't 2HKO HP252 Giratina with brave bird.
Also, its shadow ball is very useful(it can 2HKO many pokes and not resisted by regen pokes) unless there's no dark type and draco meteor can deal great damage.
It's not fast and often caught by dark type pokes with pursuit(not 1HKOed though), but I think it should reserve S rank.
I find Blaziken hard to use because of low Speed and frailness. It can't switch in to any attack due to being frail and to get a Speed Boost, it must force something out. Also Talonflame and Slowbro being everywhere doesn't help it either. I understand it CAN be devastating, but so far, I've never utilized it successfully. At least not yet.
If anyone used Blaziken successfully, tell me what pokes you use pls.
If anyone used Blaziken successfully, tell me what pokes you use pls.
I'm nomming blaziken for a solid B mon. It's speed tier is kind of subpar, and it living to get that boost is hard. Even after it does, thinks like wobb and talon (and sashes) still obliterate it, with its terrible defenses. However, if you do manage to get it going it can sweep after a PuP revenge. Unfortunately it can't set up a speed boost on any S mon and only 1 A+ mon, nearly all of the other A/A- mons prevent setting up as well. It deserves B because it is powerful, and if it does get a speed boost (even without PuP boost) it can be very hard to stop. Bar sashes, talon and wobb it can practically sweep the whole tier at +2 spe and +1 atk.
I consider this drop a success, in a few days when/if TI does the next one I'd recommend aegislash personally. Wouldn't object to Deo-s either, Darkrai and Lando-i are more iffy and should be tested last imo.And then blaziken-mega because of how poor Blaziken works, and it will have difficulty mega-ing.
Also nomming m-lope to go from A- to A. It's speed tier is nearly unmatched, along with it's amazing ability in scrappy it can deal with a ton of things. Again, talon and wobb both deal with it, but it can take almost everything else with a fake out (or not depending on the time) and a return/HJK. You can also run coverage since it gets elemental punches, I personally like Ice Punch to hit lando on the switchin although really it's not that important and you can experiment. Drain Punch may work. It also compliments talon well, which zard-y does not at all. In general m-lope is just a monster and deserves A tier.
I consider this drop a success, in a few days when/if TI does the next one I'd recommend aegislash personally. Wouldn't object to Deo-s either, Darkrai and Lando-i are more iffy and should be tested last imo.
Also nomming m-lope to go from A- to A. It's speed tier is nearly unmatched, along with it's amazing ability in scrappy it can deal with a ton of things. Again, talon and wobb both deal with it, but it can take almost everything else with a fake out (or not depending on the time) and a return/HJK. You can also run coverage since it gets elemental punches, I personally like Ice Punch to hit lando on the switchin although really it's not that important and you can experiment. Drain Punch may work. It also compliments talon well, which zard-y does not at all. In general m-lope is just a monster and deserves A tier.
DoW
formally Death on Wings
Having used Blaziken a few times, I can honestly say I've found it to be sub-par. It failed to net many of the OHKOs it really needed to do well, while also being rather frail and hard to bring in or keep alive. The counters I mentioned in the last post are also very common, especially Giratina which it can't really hit hard even if running Knock Off. Its speed isn't anywhere near as useful as would be expected due to it starting off relatively slow and frail, and taking a turn in order to be reasonably fast. Many scarf mons such as Terrakion do the job of late-game sucker-punch-resistant cleaner as well or better, with only reasonable amounts of coverage in Blaziken's favour. Here's a replay of it in action. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nostatus-259744271
All in all, I'd recommend B- rank TBH.
In terms of next suspect, I think Aegislash might be worth trying, although it may still be broken.
All in all, I'd recommend B- rank TBH.
In terms of next suspect, I think Aegislash might be worth trying, although it may still be broken.
For now, I'll put Blaziken in B-, probably because I'm one the poeple who "failed" to use it. Might change if there are more arguments.
Moved Mega Lopunny to A. I got screwed by it quite many times. Scrappy makes it able to hit Gengar and Giratina. It has a really good Speed and Fake Out as priority to break Sashes and revenge weakened Talonflame with Fake Out + Quick Attack.
I put Heracross in B. It's a great Scald absorber and it can hit Wobbuffet hard, though it's not a good switch in because Slowbro usually carries Flamethrower or Psyshock.
Moved Scizor to A-. It's not bad. Thing is, it's only good set is Choice Band. It's not as good as in OU in general.
Moved Mega Lopunny to A. I got screwed by it quite many times. Scrappy makes it able to hit Gengar and Giratina. It has a really good Speed and Fake Out as priority to break Sashes and revenge weakened Talonflame with Fake Out + Quick Attack.
I put Heracross in B. It's a great Scald absorber and it can hit Wobbuffet hard, though it's not a good switch in because Slowbro usually carries Flamethrower or Psyshock.
Moved Scizor to A-. It's not bad. Thing is, it's only good set is Choice Band. It's not as good as in OU in general.
Also, Mega Heracross beats Wobbuffet. The mechanics are such that Counter only takes the last hit of a multi-hit move into account.
That might be helpful to those who want another way to deal with Wobbuffet, multi-hit moves.
Moved Talonflame to A+. I find it overrated, now that there are more bulky things that can check it.
So I got flinched to death by a Scarf Togekiss. It seems like a decent threat because of the offensive nature of NO STATUS, and it also resists Sucker Punch. B+ maybe?
I'm not convinced it's B+ worthy because in that case, I should move Jirachi to the same rank because it's a better Togekiss, but weak to Sucker Punch. But well, I'm saying this because I've never seen Togekiss do major damage or something. If there are more people agree, I might put it in B+.
Time for the next drop. We're going to test... Deoxys-Speed!
DoW
formally Death on Wings
This should be very interesting, I think it's important not to underestimate Deo-S's offensive presence:
252+ SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Ice Beam vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 164-195 (49.3 - 58.7%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 234-277 (78.7 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
With that said, obviously it's extremely sucker punch weak (though a sash superpower lure set might be interesting), it can try to play around this with ESpeed but that's going to take a lot of correct predictions. It's also wobbuffet-weak:
252+ Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 52 HP / 232+ Def Wobbuffet: 250-294 (46.8 - 55%) -- 63.7% chance to 2HKO
(Most of the time I'd expect investment in SpA more than Attack, so it won't even do this much), again it can try playing around with a mixture of Phys and Spec moves.
Overall I expect it will manage to get a kill in most games, but won't be anywhere near overpowering despite outspeeding pretty much everything. It's also worth noting that my swift swimmers will outspeed it even if it runs 252+, and most will run a reasonable amount less than this I imagine.
252+ SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Ice Beam vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 164-195 (49.3 - 58.7%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 234-277 (78.7 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
With that said, obviously it's extremely sucker punch weak (though a sash superpower lure set might be interesting), it can try to play around this with ESpeed but that's going to take a lot of correct predictions. It's also wobbuffet-weak:
252+ Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 52 HP / 232+ Def Wobbuffet: 250-294 (46.8 - 55%) -- 63.7% chance to 2HKO
(Most of the time I'd expect investment in SpA more than Attack, so it won't even do this much), again it can try playing around with a mixture of Phys and Spec moves.
Overall I expect it will manage to get a kill in most games, but won't be anywhere near overpowering despite outspeeding pretty much everything. It's also worth noting that my swift swimmers will outspeed it even if it runs 252+, and most will run a reasonable amount less than this I imagine.
Okay. Nominating Deo S in A-. Like Lugia, it's power is kinda lacking. I don't know why but LO just doesn't work that great while Sash works better. LO Psycho Boost fails 1HKO Serperior (probably because I'm running +Speed Nature), which is disappointing.
Also, I assume the will be the last Uber drop we're getting. So far, besides the rebanned Mega Mawile, none of the Ubers that are dropped are broken. Closest to broken is Giratina, which is not exactly broken as well.
Also, I assume the will be the last Uber drop we're getting. So far, besides the rebanned Mega Mawile, none of the Ubers that are dropped are broken. Closest to broken is Giratina, which is not exactly broken as well.
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