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Noivern VS Salamence, Which is better in this Meta?

Discussion in 'VGC' started by ATH, Feb 26, 2014.

  1. ATH

    ATH

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    This is something I've been thinking about for a while, and I believe deserves actual discussion rather than a simple answer of "___ is better."
    Mence is given the ability Intimidate, making it an excellent pair alongside Mega Mawile, as with Earthquake being popular, the double Inti makes it worth nothing. Not to mention, the metagame right now is based around mainly physical attackers, and with the scarf set, it seems to work out fairly well. It also works great as to pivot with Garchomp in that one has the special moves, one has the physical version of similar moves. This can help in wallbreaking things that normally would completely shut down the duo, such as Ferrothorn, Rotom-W, and similar mons. The main problem is that Mence almost has to have the scarf now, or you'll be outsped by opposing Salamences, which is not a good thing.

    With Mence seemingly having little to no flaws, and Noivern sounding like complete blasphemy, let me talk about it first. Noivern has a special ability known as Frisk, this allows you to figure out your opponent's sets on Pokemon just by sending it out. For instance, finding a Chesto Berry on a Rotom will tell you it has rest, and doesn't have Shadow Ball most likely. Finding a Choice Band on a Talonflame will tell you to be more careful around it than normal. It's a really good Ability that helps you predict your opponent better. Noivern can run almost any item from Life Orb to Focus Sash, as it doesn't have the bulk one may want it too, it has an overwhelmingly great speed stat of 123, outspeeding most things in this current Meta other than Scarf users and Talonflame. It's also given Tailwind, which can be an artificial Scarf, though, takes one turn to get up. This makes Noivern a good friend with Amoonguss, as Amoonguss can take the hits using Rage Powder while Noivern sets up the field, and since Mega Abomasnow seemingly isn't around too often, Blizzard isn't too much to worry about. Not to mention, I personally like to run Flamethrower + Dragon Pulse/Draco Meteor on my Noivern. Protect is optional, and can help, but not needed.

    So, what would make one better than the other?
    Salamence has Intimidate, making it a solid lead alongside a good Mega Mawile in this Metagame.
    Noivern seems to be the opposite, as it can be sent with an Amoonguss against the Yzard/Venusaur common duo.
    Salamence has to use it's item slot though for the Choice Scarf.
    Noivern can run almost any item considered competitive and do good.
    ScarfMence can break walls Alongside a nice Garchomp.
    Noivern can't seem to do this as well, but can nonetheless.

    They both seem to have their niches and their disadvantages. What do you think? Should they even be compared? Or is one just overall better in the current Metagame? Is one more predictable than the other? I'd love to see people's thoughts and opinions on this.

    P.S. This is based off of a conversation I had with my buddy, he was on the side of Noivern, though, I defended Salamence. Most of these points are his, but he's also a fairly experienced player.
    lucariojr likes this.
  2. TheMantyke

    TheMantyke ᴵ ᶰᵉᵉᵈ ᵃ ᵐᵒᶰˢᵗᵉʳ ᵗᵒ ᶜᶫᵒᵇᵇᵉʳ ᵗʰᵃᵗ ᵗʰᵉʳᵉ ᴷᶦʳᵇʸ
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    I would say that Salamence wins this competition by a fairly long stretch. In terms of raw Draco Meteor Sniping Power, a Choice Scarf Salamence might be less poweful than a Life Orbed Noivern, but unlike Noivern, Salamence isn't dying from any hit right after. For how useful Frisk is, Intimidate is just too good an ability, especially when you're one of the very few Pokemon who can Intimidate other Pokemon without caring about it yourself. Salamence brings a lot to a team helping out with Kangaskhan, Garchomp, and friends while still getting the job done sniping stuff with Draco Meteor despite the lower power. That's a bunch of really useful traits rolled into one Pokemon that I don't think Noivern can claim it has.

    I'd say that if you're using Noivern, Salamence is the gold standard you need to compare it to. Make sure when you're using it, you have enough of its unique options like Tailwind or Boomburst to justify its usage over Salamence.
  3. moist quagsire

    moist quagsire

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    I think it puerly depends on the team you are runing, weather you have something that can already out speed and ohko garchomp, weather you want more power, a mixed attacker, or some tail wind suport... take a team based around a bisharp, Mence is bulkyer and so can switch in on CCs and Fire blasts more oftern, wearass noivern can whip up a tail wind making Bisharp out speed scarfed garchop and the rest of them, for some Knok off sweeping, wile noivern provides supporting fire and smacks through the rare but often effective substitute, my pic would be salamence, because of it's a verry creatively destructive poke, as its manny options and wide move-pool render him hard to predict, if the roal is to kill garchomps or out speed opposing salamences choice scalf im, throw him on an intimadate team or do some moxie shenanigans with a mix set pac a naughty hydropump, or an unpredictable bulldoze whitch has a simeler efect to Noivern's tail wind wile sneeking in some coverage, coming of a solid 135 attack even weaker moves like bulldove can be enough to 2hko or force a switch on a neutral hit espeshaly after a moxie boost.... Mence all the way
  4. Professor Birch

    Professor Birch

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    This would depend on what you need it for. Noivern is a fast special attacker with the ability to tell you what sets your opponent runs through Frisk or can ignore Subs thanks to Infiltrator. Also, Noivern does not get crippled from Intimidate or WoW which is a great bonus to have this season. Salamence on the other hand, is still that great pokemon it has been. Great offenses as well as decent bulk and has Intimidate support. One downside to Salamence is that it now has to fear of Intimidate and WoW. Of course you could run a Specs set or a specially based set but that is kind of pointless since its physical power is great. If you want a special attacker, you might as well go Noivern due to Noivern having a great special movepool. It really comes down to what role you need to be filled on the team.
  5. ATH

    ATH

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    I beg to differ, the meta in VGC runs a special ScarfMence. It helps a lot in breaking Garchomp and some walls. And it becomes the only intimidater to not be scared of an intimidate. EX: Ray Rizzo's winning team at the VA Regionals consisted of Tyranitar, Rotom-W, Garchomp, Ferrothorn, Mega Mawile, and ScarfMence.
  6. Professor Birch

    Professor Birch

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    Due to Noiverns high speed, you do not have to worry about Speed as much and could then just run Specs, which would make it stronger than Salamence on the special side. I am not saying special mence isnt viable because I know it is, I am just saying that you could have other options that may fit the role better.
  7. bwebber

    bwebber

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    Salamence, by far. Intimidate is just way too good.

    Also, if a Pokemon can go special, it should go special. Opposing Intimidate (Mega Manectric is also a wielder of that ability who's also a special attacker, btw) and WoW are just too prevalent to really consider being fully physical, which is why Special Tyranitars exist. I'm not sure if Noivern's superior move pool really matters all that much considering you're not really going to use much outside of Draco Meteor / Fire move, plus the occasional Stone Edge for Charizard and Talonflame.
  8. Forsety

    Forsety

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    I think what you got to look at with the current trend in VGC 14 trending towards pure balanced/goodstuff teams is which is the better all-rounder and it simply is Salamence which is pretty much stated in the OP anyway that it has little to no flaws. To put it another way I can maybe make one or two teams which would be suitable for Noivern to take advantage of and Salamence on the other wouldn't really need the team to be built for it and if anything you often find yourself adding Salamence for a certain purpose yet it 'accidentally' checks something else you didn't intend to.
  9. WreckDra

    WreckDra

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    Noivern is almost incomparable to Mence because of the different roles they play. While Mence generally intimidates and snipes down Garchomp or hits hard with specs/orb, Noivern is more of a utility dragon that checks items and sets up a fast tailwind with sash. It can also snipe down Garchomp and non-scarf Mence(frisk will tell) but Noivern's power is underwhelming in comparison. You have to remember that it is still a STAB Draco Meteor though.

    Need something to smash n' bash things, cripple physical attackers and take down Chomp n Hydriegon, go with Salamence.

    Need a fast Tailwind user that acts as a set scout and snipes down the other 2 dragons, Noivern is your best bat.

    I just feel that Noivern has a utility niche that sets it apart from Salamence
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2014
  10. moist quagsire

    moist quagsire

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    we have to be cearfull chucking all of these scarfs and specs around (espeshaly in VGC) but at the end of the day, u smack a garchomp with a draco-meteor even with haban berrys and what not it's still going to hurt alot, fyi salamence has higher special attack than noivern and has arguably better move pool (hydro pump and co')and abilitys (both intimidate and moxie :D HQ) yes with noiivern you can run specs but with a scalf or tail wind support Mence can out peform most noiverns... and who's rulling out scalf chomp or mamoswine as a garchomp counter, meh....
  11. Darkerones

    Darkerones

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    If youre gonna use Noivern definitely take advantage of Hurricane (pair with Drizzle pls) and Tailwind, as well as outspeeding Greninja, thats really all it has going for it.
    Although, now I'm curious to see how a Noivern+Salamence offensive duo could work in VGC, provided the rest of the team has plenty to handle lolrockslide
  12. klvkboom

    klvkboom

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    I think rather than trying to have both Pokes fill the same role, it's more important to utilize them for their individual strengths.

    Everyone already knows how Mence is commonly played (Scarf/Specs+Intimidate, Nuke everything) but Noivern has other strengths that differentiate him completely from Mence. I find Noivern to be in a position similar to Aerodactyl, a "suicide support"-ish Poke that can take out key threats and cripple others, all while giving your other Pokes an easier time. I would go as far as to say Noivern is more similar to Aero than he is to Mence.

    Noivern has very respectable movesets, consisting of some of the strong support moves that Aero also has, such as Tailwind and Taunt. Draco Meteor is also a good selling point, as it has no problem OHKOing any dragon-type bar Goodra and Multiscale Dnite. It is not meant to be a general nuke but to be a good check to many dragons in VGC, and as such you shouldn't need to worry about boosting his damage with an item. Not to mention Frisk allows you to scout to ensure you're the faster dragon out on the field, so against dragon leads you'll always know if you'll have that faster OHKO potential, putting decent pressure by turn 1. Super Fang is also a good option, since it's incredibly good at softening Pokes as well as giving you a good attack after SpA drops.

    That being said though, it's definitely possible to tailor Noivern to fill the shoes of Mence. However it does lack a lot of characteristics of Mence. Intimidate is the obvious one, which is naturally better utilized throughout the entire match whereas Frisk mainly shines turn 1. It also allows Mence to use his Choice Scarf better since Intimidate softens up common priority moves, not to mention it also makes switching less of a hassle. Mence also has access to Rock Slide (or Stone Edge for guaranteed Zard KOs), which can abuse flinch-hax shenanigans as well as keeping Talonflame and Zard in check. Noivern has a decent amount of options but not as strong as Mence's. Hurricane should only be used with rain, U-turn is a bit wasteful as you won't scout switches as much in VGC, Air Slash has decent flinch but is nowhere a nuke, Boomburst hits your own teammate, Switcheroo is "potentially powerful?", and Super Fang is a more of a support move.

    However, I should mention that I'm not much of a Noivern user, but based on his movepool and stats the numbers are there similarly to Aerodactyl, a speedy check to common Pokes and a suicide support. He can support his team with Tailwind, Taunt, Super Fang, and Frisk while at the same time keep dragons as bay with Draco Meteor. Noivern can create holes and strengthen the rest of his team whereas Mence creates holes to strengthen his ego :p
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2014
    WreckDra likes this.
  13. nu nu X

    nu nu X

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    3 reasons why Mence is better than Noivern
    1. Mence can go physical or special, while Noivern has a one-track mind
    2. Noivern can't take a hit while Mence can lower its foe's attack on switch-in and take a physical hit
    3. MIXED MOXIE MENCE, BABY
  14. klvkboom

    klvkboom

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    1. VGC Mence is more often than not Special. If it's Physical then you put yourself vulnerable to Will-O-Wisp and Intimidate. Noivern has unmitigated damage through Super Fang.
    2. Noivern's Frisk is useful in its own respect, and is mainly used as a lead.
    3. Moxie 0.960%. Not gonna see Moxie Mence in VGC anytime soon. Also makes your 2nd point invalid if you use Moxie.
  15. nu nu X

    nu nu X

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    Right, VGC. I forgot this was about VGC in the first place xD
  16. TheDopeyAlakazam

    TheDopeyAlakazam

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    I feel like Salamence is way better. Sure with Noivern you have great speed but you don't have any attacking power. Plus I could see why you say frisk is great but you can only frisk one pokemon before either dying or switching out. But don't trust my opinion because I have never seen Noivern used and see some tactics of how to use it.
  17. ATH

    ATH

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    The moment Noivern is sent out with the ability Frisk, it shows you the items of both opposing Pokemon, as this is VGC.

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