Pokémon Noivern

[Quaily]

actually noivern can't ko goodra with meteor unless it has specs. It can't 2hko specially defensive goodra at all since timid draco meteor only does 48.9 - 58.3%

 

[phoenix0wright]

Yeah you're right I screwed up my calcs. That's yet another reason Specs is superior though. Plus even of you don't OHKO, you've made it so SpD Goodra can't switch in again after SR damage without getting KOed

 

[Quaily]

yeah I'd go for specs over scarf too on a trick set. a scarf can really come back to bite you if you trick it on the wrong thing and noivern is plenty fast.

 

[Double Electric]

Hmm. I notice that Noivern's sprite keeps changing. To be honest, I preferred the original one. The second one was ugly and this third one is... well, it's so so I guess.

I'll definitely note that Infiltrator is definitely more useful than Frisk though. Being able to do things like KO Gliscor through Substitute is invaluable. Frisk is mostly useful for seeing if the opponent is scarfed or not (scouting Lati@s' item is invaluable for instance), but Noivern has trouble switching into most Pokemon who it'd want to check (and if you die to the Pokemon on switch in, that usually defeats the purpose of trying to scout its item).

 

[Richitt]

You can generally kill Gliscor with boomburst anyways though, which is why it's so useful.

My big win with Frisk is seeing Scarf users.

See that Hydreigon? Just gonna hit draco- Oh, it's scarfed. Nevermind, easy switch to my Gardevoir.

 

[Hidious]

You can generally kill Gliscor with boomburst anyways though, which is why it's so useful.

My big win with Frisk is seeing Scarf users.

See that Hydreigon? Just gonna hit draco- Oh, it's scarfed. Nevermind, easy switch to my Gardevoir.

And take a flash cannon to the face or double switch to something that can counter gardevoir? He knows that you know that you are scarfed so you can't guarantee a free switch. You also know that he knows that you know that he is scarfed so you can use a draco and take the flash cannon. He also knows that and yadda yadda yadda. So the matchup really ends up being closer to 50/50.

 

[Richitt]

And take a flash cannon to the face or double switch to something that can counter gardevoir? He knows that you know that you are scarfed so you can't guarantee a free switch. You also know that he knows that you know that he is scarfed so you can use a draco and take the flash cannon. He also knows that and yadda yadda yadda. So the matchup really ends up being closer to 50/50.

I'm running full spD gardevoir, and flashcannon is still fringe on Hydreigon (haven't seen it much yet).
Still, you're correct, but that evens the matchup for me.

If I didn't have frisk, it becomes "Oh, a Hydreigon. Could be spec'd/orb'ed. Lemme go for a meteor." Near 100% loss for me.

I mean, there are other scenarios. Another is the ability to scout megas- useful when i see multiple potential megas. Or which mega (in the case of charizard). It also gets rid of the oddball sets. I can see focus sash sets, wierd redcards, etc.

I just find it better than infiltrator, mainly because boomburst generally gets the guy behind the sub i wanted anyways, and frisk's utility is just so nice. I lead noivern, they lead azumarill. I see choice band, and know I can safely switch in foretress for some hazard setups because i know it's not a bellydrum azumarill, etc.

 

[Hidious]

Yeah, no doubt frisk is useful. I'm just saying that the scenario you described wasn't entirely true. Albeit better because of frisk.

 

[Seth Vilo]

Hmm. I notice that Noivern's sprite keeps changing. To be honest, I preferred the original one. The second one was ugly and this third one is... well, it's so so I guess.

I'll definitely note that Infiltrator is definitely more useful than Frisk though. Being able to do things like KO Gliscor through Substitute is invaluable. Frisk is mostly useful for seeing if the opponent is scarfed or not (scouting Lati@s' item is invaluable for instance), but Noivern has trouble switching into most Pokemon who it'd want to check (and if you die to the Pokemon on switch in, that usually defeats the purpose of trying to scout its item).

I'm still in the debating stage of Infiltrator vs Frisk, having just bred perfect Switcheroo ones of both. This is theorymoning here, since I'm still kind of waiting till PokeBank until I dive into the metagame.

My thought is that it's not necessarily Noivern switching into something it wants to check; that seems like a partner job to me. Combine Noivern with bulky, slow VoltSwitchers, like Scizor and Rotom-W (there's you a nice core), and you can easily get Noivern in on something you need checked. It's then just if you run Switcheroo to cripple something, or U-Turn to continue the shenanigans now that you know their item. Boomburst naturally is great with Frisk, since it's the best of both worlds in a sense, except against Ghosts that like to hide behind Substitute *coughGengarspecificallycough*. Infiltrator, though, helps with Subs and the rare--emphasize rare in my experience--Dual Screens. This is common knowledge in this thread though, so I'm typing in circles.

Overall, I see Frisk Noivern being ever so slightly more reliant on/helpful to its teammates than is Infiltrator. The former makes it easier to know what to switch into, say, the opponent's Hydreigon now that you know it's Scarved not LO, and synergizes well with VoltSwitch. The latter just blasts things with Bursts and Meteors, no matter what they try to get in its way.

 

[Shinobi_Warrior]

Probably better for when the Lower Tiers begin but I present

Bats of a ...
Noivern @ Leftovers
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 Hp / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
Nature: Timid
- Taunt
- Dragon Pulse / Hurricane / Boomburst
- Super Fang / U-turn / Toxic
- Roost

Stall Breaker Noivern takes a page from Crobat's playbook. With similar defenses, good defensive typing I have no doubt that Noivern will be surprisingly bulky. Taunt allows him to stop set up while u-turning for momentum or Super Fanging to nerf walls. Dragon Pulse is favored for the accuracy as well as providing great neutral damage.

Speed could be dropped to add more to attack. While Frisk could also be used as a means to scout for sets.

Some questions does infiltrator allow him to taunt and hit through subs?

For the last question, yes, infiltrator goes through subs

 

[Khan!!!]

the only saving grace of this pokemon is 2 good abilities. it is able to use them well with good speed.

 

[Falgaia]

Hmm. I notice that Noivern's sprite keeps changing. To be honest, I preferred the original one. The second one was ugly and this third one is... well, it's so so I guess.

aXl here, creator of the current Noivern sprite being used on PS!. The sprite will look better once animated, as I plan on making its wings flap similar to its in-game animation. The primary issues with the original was that it was standing still and had a disproportionate pose that was based on the Sugomori art, which varies from the ingame model quite a bit. In addition, the original pose was grounded, which limited the coolness factor of having it's speed show through its animation. Just thought I'd drop in and report our original reasoning behind changing the sprite. +)

 

[Pipotchi]

I really like this pokemon, although I cant see the point of running either u-turn or hurricane on it. U-turn is great and all, but coming off such mediocre unboosted attack its not going to be doing much at all, and is completely worthless half the time when choice locked into another move. The only benefit I can see for a slow, weak u-turn is to absorb a hit on the way to a frail pokemon, but noivern is way too frail itself to be doing that.
As for hurricane, the move is definitely powerful but draco meteor + flamethrower is already really great neutral coverage, with azumarill and heatran being the only prominent threats that resist it (?). Using boomburst instead gives a 140bp move to sweep weakened teams as well as hit through substitutes without needing to use infiltrator, giving you extra utility from frisk. Its definitely the move I use least on the set, but its definitely reliable and it performs 10x better as a lategame sweeping tool than flamethrower or draco meteor, and hurricane's shaky accuracy really puts me off it.

Banded crobat feels 10x better at performing the role of infiltrator poke though, having the perfect typing to destroy all the fighting and grass mons that love substitute, as well as ohkoing all those speed boosting scolipedes while resisting their STABs. He also outspeeds and ohkos gengar and terrakion through their substitutes which is never a bad thing. He also has access to an actually damaging u-turn and has the option of using hypnosis as a last resort through a sub.

Noivern is however 100x better at dealing with gliscor as he can switcheroo him specs through sub. Gaining toxic orb doesn't affect your already low survivability that much, and just gives another weapon to use later. Draco meteor also is usually a ohko (56%) on the bat.

 

[November Blue]

Noivern @ Specs
Frisk
Timid
252 SpA / 252 Spe

U-turn
Switcheroo
Hurricane
Boomburst

Noivern doesn't seem to have a universally agreed standard set of moves for the Specs set. Here's my current fave. U-turn and Switcheroo are useful, but my main attack is Hurricane. Sure, the accuracy is kinda shaky, but it's Noivern's most powerful option. I've swept through three or four Pokes in one go with this move, and the confusion has saved me multiple times. The way I see it, Frisk is much more useful than Infiltrator; if I want to pierce Subs, I'll use Boomburst.

I had Flamethrower in Boomburst's slot, but changed it because I wasn't using it. Most relevant Steels are neutral to Hurricane.

 

[greybob]

I've mostly been running Specs with

Draco Meteor
Hurricane
Flamethrower
Boomburst/U-Turn

Noivern hits hard with Specs, but my team badly needs something like Taunt to prevent boosting and stalling, so I am thinking of ditching the Specs. I'm not sure what to replace them with though. Noivern kinda needs the SpAtk boost.
Maybe Life Orb with Taunt, Roost, Hurricane, Draco Meteor?

I've been using Infiltrator, but two of my team have Skill Link so Subs aren't really a problem. I think I'll play around with Frisk for a while and see what happens.

UPDATE: I am actually really enjoying Frisk w/Choice Specs
Switcheroo
Draco Meteor
Hurricane
Flamethrower

with Switcheroo as a way to prevent set-up and stalling. If pulled off correctly, it gives the rest of my team a great opportunity to set-up and sweep. This has probably already been mentioned, but Frisk is great for this set because it lets you know what you're trading for, so you don't get saddled with something worse.

Had a guy ragequit after I switched specs onto Cloyster on the switch, locking him into Icicle Spear. Then I switched out to my own Cloyster and got to Shell Smash to my heart's content.

 

[SnoopysWorld]

Just got traded a shiny Noibat which I plan to use for competitive, but its ability is Frisk. I'm thinking about getting an ability capsule and switching Frisk to Infiltrator, would that be viable at all? Main reason I want to do this is because I absolutely hate pokemon behind substitutes... I start losing hope on winning.

Was thinking about going with something like this:

Noivern @ Choice Specs
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 Sp. Atk / 4 HP/ 252 Spe
Nature: Timid
- Draco Meteor
- Boomburst
- Flamethrower
- Dark Pulse / U-Turn

 

[greybob]

Just got traded a shiny Noibat which I plan to use for competitive, but its ability is Frisk. I'm thinking about getting an ability capsule and switching Frisk to Infiltrator, would that be viable at all? Main reason I want to do this is because I absolutely hate pokemon behind substitutes... I start losing hope on winning.

Was thinking about going with something like this:

Noivern @ Choice Specs
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 Sp. Atk / 4 HP/ 252 Spe
Nature: Timid
- Draco Meteor
- Boomburst
- Flamethrower
- Dark Pulse / U-Turn

If you have trouble with Subs, Infiltrator would be good. But since you have Boomburst on there, the only thing you would need to worry about is Ghost types since BB can hit through subs anyways.

I would favor Hurricane over Flamethrower on that set. The increased BP and STAB is totally worth it, along with a high chance to confuse, that's pretty fantastic. And Hurricane hits a lot of things for super-effective or neutral damage in OU, which makes it less risky to get locked into. I would suggest rain support if you favor Hurricane due to the low accuracy outside of it. Even if you don't have any rain on your team, you may run into rain on other teams which you can use to your advantage.

 

[SnoopysWorld]

If you have trouble with Subs, Infiltrator would be good. But since you have Boomburst on there, the only thing you would need to worry about is Ghost types since BB can hit through subs anyways.

I would favor Hurricane over Flamethrower on that set. The increased BP and STAB is totally worth it, along with a high chance to confuse, that's pretty fantastic. And Hurricane hits a lot of things for super-effective or neutral damage in OU, which makes it less risky to get locked into. I would suggest rain support if you favor Hurricane due to the low accuracy outside of it. Even if you don't have any rain on your team, you may run into rain on other teams which you can use to your advantage.

Yeah, Hurricane's accuracy outside of rain is what made me go with the other moves over it. Would it be better to save the Draco Meteor / Hurricane / Boomburst / U-Turn specs shiny Noivern for a rain team and use the one with Flamethrower for non-rain teams?

 

[shack]

Boomburst is cool but i think infiltrator +flamethrower would be more useful against the likes of klefki

 

[Richitt]

Boomburst is cool but i think infiltrator +flamethrower would be more useful against the likes of klefki

I'm thinking about that now, since I absolutely hate that thing.

On the other hand, you would never want to switch in Noivern on Klefki, since prankster twave= paralyzed noivern = useless noivern.

 

[ChopperDave]

I've been running the Infiltrator Choice Specs set, and after some trial and error I think Boomburst is almost certainly a better move than Hurricane.

The math shows that it's not even a contest. A little theorymon:

Hurricane - 110 (BP) * 1.5 (STAB) * 0.7 (Accuracy) = 115.5 Expected Value
Hurricane (rain) - 110 (BP) * 1.5 (STAB) * 1.0 (Accuracy) = 165 Expected Value
Boomburst - 140 (BP) * 1.0 (STAB) * 1.0 (Accuracy) = 140 Expected Value

So unless you've got a rain team, Boomburst is 100% the way to go. Even with Hurricane's STAB bonus, Boomburst offers 20% more expected value. Factoring in both power and reliability, Boomburst is simply the better move.

(This analysis ignores Hurricane's confusion chance, but I think that's too unreliable to really factor in.)

So I think Noivern's best set is probably:

Noivern @ Choice Specs
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 Sp. Atk / 4 HP/ 252 Spe
Nature: Timid
- Draco Meteor
- Boomburst
- Flamethrower
- Switcheroo / Focus Blast

Boomburst + Flamethrower gets you basically the same type coverage as Hurricane + Flamethrower, minus the super-effective against Fighting types.

Draco is Draco.

Switcheroo gives you good utility and really messes over most Special Walls you'll come up against. On the other hand, Focus Miss gives you added super-effective coverage against Rock types that might otherwise wall you, like Mega Tyranitar and Mega Aggron. Still not sure which one I prefer yet.

 

[November Blue]

I've been running the Infiltrator Choice Specs set, and after some trial and error I think Boomburst is almost certainly a better move than Hurricane.

No, no, no. Hurricane is far superior to Boomburst.

Boomburst on a Choice set gives Ghost-types a free switch in, whereas both moves share a Rock and Steel resistance. For stuff like Rotom-W and Tyranitar, you're better off using Draco Meteor anyway. Plus, Boomburst's only real merit is allowing Noivern to bypass Substitutes while using Frisk.

Hurricane's confusion chance is identical to Scald's burn chance. It has a higher base power due to STAB, and can hit super effectively. It may be inaccurate, but each hit is far more devastating than your flimsy little Boomburst!

 

[ChopperDave]

No, no, no. Hurricane is far superior to Boomburst.

Boomburst on a Choice set gives Ghost-types a free switch in, whereas both moves share a Rock and Steel resistance. For stuff like Rotom-W and Tyranitar, you're better off using Draco Meteor anyway. Plus, Boomburst's only real merit is allowing Noivern to bypass Substitutes while using Frisk.

Hurricane's confusion chance is identical to Scald's burn chance. It has a higher base power due to STAB, and can hit super effectively. It may be inaccurate, but each hit is far more devastating than your flimsy little Boomburst!

I dunno. Ghosts' immunity to Boomburst is annoying and the confusion chance is helpful but unreliable. I still don't think that's enough to edge out Hurricane over Boomburst.

Against a neutral target, Boomburst will do more damage over time (on average) than Hurricane. Theoretically, if you used Boomburst 100 times and Hurricane 100 times, Boomburst would end up doing about 20% more damage, due to Hurricane's miss chance.

This isn't the same with, say, Flamethrower vs. Flame Burst. Flamethrower's Expected Value is 90 whereas Flame Burst's (110*.85) is 93.5, so Flame Burst will end up doing more damage over time than Flamethrower, even with it's reduced accuracy.

This is all Theory-mon anyway. If you're OK with the risk, by all means go with Hurricane. But I'd say that if you're worried about being walled by Ghosts, get Noivern a teammate with Pursuit and/or give him Dark Pulse. Or just drop a Draco Meteor on the ghost's head - most are flimsy enough for that to OHKO them.

 

[Shiruba]

No, no, no. Hurricane is far superior to Boomburst.

Boomburst on a Choice set gives Ghost-types a free switch in, whereas both moves share a Rock and Steel resistance. For stuff like Rotom-W and Tyranitar, you're better off using Draco Meteor anyway. Plus, Boomburst's only real merit is allowing Noivern to bypass Substitutes while using Frisk.

Hurricane's confusion chance is identical to Scald's burn chance. It has a higher base power due to STAB, and can hit super effectively. It may be inaccurate, but each hit is far more devastating than your flimsy little Boomburst!

why would you lock yourself into boomburst when there is a ghost on the foe's team and doing so would be problematic
team preview exists

uh no that's simply untrue
boomburst is a move that you can spam, unlike draco meteor and really hurricane. you can spam it because it has no drops and has perfect accuracy so you don't have to miss at a clutch time, while being considerably stronger against neutral targets than flamethrower.

252 SpA Choice Specs Noivern Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Blastoise: 165-195 (45.5 - 53.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
wow so flimsyyyyy so weeeeeak

both have their merits, you can't dismiss one or the other as shitty because they're both good in different circumstances.

 

[November Blue]

I dunno. Ghosts' immunity to Boomburst is annoying and the confusion chance is helpful but unreliable. I still don't think that's enough to edge out Hurricane over Boomburst.

Against a neutral target, Boomburst will do more damage over time (on average) than Hurricane. Theoretically, if you used Boomburst 100 times and Hurricane 100 times, Boomburst would end up doing about 20% more damage, due to Hurricane's miss chance.

This isn't the same with, say, Flamethrower vs. Flame Burst. Flamethrower's Expected Value is 90 whereas Flame Burst's (110*.85) is 93.5, so Flame Burst will end up doing more damage over time than Flamethrower, even with it's reduced accuracy.

This is all Theory-mon anyway. If you're OK with the risk, by all means go with Hurricane. But I'd say that if you're worried about being walled by Ghosts, get Noivern a teammate with Pursuit and/or give him Dark Pulse. Or just drop a Draco Meteor on the ghost's head - most are flimsy enough for that to OHKO them.

The confusion chance doesn't need to be reliable.

You're not using both moves 100 times, you're using either one less than ten times per battle. But yes, Hurricane has low accuracy.

Draco Meteor + Hurricane. Can't go wrong. Have you tried U-turn?