Pokémon Noivern

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Latios doesn't have U-turn.

The thing about choice sets is generally you want that turn anyways, not for the damage, but for the momentum.
Comparison to Flygon is meh, seeing as Noivern hits harder.
The outspeeding part is pretty important actually.
Frisk is way more useful than it looks, especially on a hit and run tactic like choices. Infiltrator obviously has its benefits of hitting through subs and stuff.
Obviously, Noivern isn't as good as the Lati twins, but it has its niches.
 
I personally prefer Noivern with a Modest nature. His speed is amazing with just a neutral nature but his special attack needs the boost imo. Like I said before I run him on my rain team. I'm currently using this setup. I change the item here and there so I'm not listing it.

Ability: Infiltrator
Nature: Modest (+Sp. Atk, -Atk)
EVs: 252 Sp. Atk, 4 HP, 252 Spd
- Draco Meteor
- Hurricane
- U-Turn
- Focus Blast

However I've been thinking about the benefits of switching Focus Blast for either Boomburst or Superfang. I use it to counter some of Noivern's type weaknesses but the accuracy really hurts. I really like this set up because he comes out and hits pretty hard. I don't know about most but this gen Azumarill got a pretty big boost thanks to it's new typing. Normally when I have Noivern rampaging around people swap in a fairy or dragon to put him in a corner. Azumarill is an amazing U-Turn pick. Like I said in my last post there are so many different uses for Noivern and some are really fun to play. He's a great tactic pokemon too. Sometimes I like to use him as a for fun pokemon.


Ability: Frisk
Nature: Timid (+Spd, -Atk)
Item : Toxic Orb
EVs: 252 Sp. Atk, 252 Speed, 4 HP
-Switcheroo
-Hurricane
-U-Turn
-Draco Meteor

I like this one just because it's fun to take someones Life Orb, Choice items, or other useful item to their set up. Then give them a toxic orb in return. Now sometimes it can backfire but like I said it's for fun and not competitive. I can't help but laugh when I think about the look on someones face. I just wish you could take mega stones...
Anyway, one last set I use

Ability: Frisk
Nature: Timid (+Spd, -Atk)
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 Sp. Atk, 252 Speed, 4 HP
-Substitute
-Toxic
-U-Turn
-Boomburst

Really this set is a scout set. I only put Boomburst in here because of it's damage/accuracy ratio. It could easily be swapped with Draco Meteor or another great move. I suppose it's all personal taste. Enjoy guys. Hopefully I've helped give some good options and shown how versatile he can really be. I hope to see him be used in newer and newer ways. I hope to even learn more myself :D Anyway guys... as always, have fun and enjoy the wonderful world of pokemon! :D
 
Latios doesn't have U-turn.

The thing about choice sets is generally you want that turn anyways, not for the damage, but for the momentum.
Comparison to Flygon is meh, seeing as Noivern hits harder.
The outspeeding part is pretty important actually.
Frisk is way more useful than it looks, especially on a hit and run tactic like choices. Infiltrator obviously has its benefits of hitting through subs and stuff.
Obviously, Noivern isn't as good as the Lati twins, but it has its niches.
Latios doesn't have U-Turn. But Flygon does. And how does Noivern hit harder than Flygon? Flygon has 100/80 compared to 70/97, and unlike Noivern, has a reliable dual STAB combo with a much stronger U-Turn, and it doesn't lose out damage through it's EV spread (when Noivern does.)
 
Here's a question: Does noviern have any role where he isn't outclassed by something?
As cool as he is, I'm going with no one this one, unfortunately. The only thing he seems to have that separates him from his Dragon kin seems to be Taunt. And there are probably better non-Dragon taunt users out there.
 
Latios doesn't have U-Turn. But Flygon does. And how does Noivern hit harder than Flygon? Flygon has 100/80 compared to 70/97, and unlike Noivern, has a reliable dual STAB combo with a much stronger U-Turn, and it doesn't lose out damage through it's EV spread (when Noivern does.)
Harder special attacks? I mean, that's like saying Hydreigon hits harder than Garchomp, because 105/125 offenses compared to 130/80. One has a better mixed while the other has a more focused offense.
 
The point I'm making is that if you want to hit anything reasonably hard at all with Novern, you're neglecting your Attack stat, which makes your U-Turns very subpar. Flygon however doesn't need to neglect his main stats for STAB, and will hit harder overall while being able to use U-Turn. If you don't use U-Turn, Noivern is an inferior Latios/Latias, and shouldn't really be used at all.
 
The point I'm making is that if you want to hit anything reasonably hard at all with Novern, you're neglecting your Attack stat, which makes your U-Turns very subpar. Flygon however doesn't need to neglect his main stats for STAB, and will hit harder overall while being able to use U-Turn. If you don't use U-Turn, Noivern is an inferior Latios/Latias, and shouldn't really be used at all.
At least if the Battle Spot forum is any indication, Frisk is an underrated ability. That's one thing it has over the Latis, at least. It might be better used as a scout than as a special sweeper. Scouting was considered important enough (at least in Gen 4 anyway; then again, Gen 4 didn't have Team Preview) that a CAP project was created with this role in mind.
 
I think Noivern is actually a little underrated here. Noivern's draco meteors hit harder than Crobat's brave birds and it is the fastest dragon type pokemon so it will still outspeed any non scarfed non boosted dragons and threaten them with a draco meteor. And it still outspeeds a lot of things. It will still hit hard with choice specs. I think the niche that Noivern has is that it can use switcheroo through subs so it can cripple dangerous pokes that like to use substitute such as bisharp and it can dump a choice specs on it when it tries to go for a sucker punch. A bisharp behind a sub with a swords dance up is really dangerous which is why I like the fact that Noivern has a way of crippling sub users and also annoying walls such as chansey in uu.

Here is a Noivern set I have been thinking of

Item: Choice Specs.
Ability: Infiltrator
Nature: Timid
252 evs special attack
252 evs speed
4 evs defense

Draco meteor
Switcheroo
Air slash/Hurricane
Flamethrower

This set seems so standard that if someone has already mentioned this than I apologise. The main point of this set is basically to revenge kill with specs Draco meteors and also flying type stab. If you are running politoed than use hurricane for a powerful flying type STAB otherwise stick to Air slash as it is more accurate. Switcheroo is there as a last ditch effort to stop a sweep from a pokemon behind a substitute that you know you can't take out with your attacking moves or a pokemon that is trying to set up on you. I like this pokemon. It can be used as a fast revenge killer or something that can cripple pokes that like to hide behind subs. and in the case of bisharp, it doesn't have to worry about taking a potential sucker punch to the face since it can switcheroo the choice specs. Even though this is a frail pokemon, the 4 evs in defense is to try and at least live priority moves since most priority is physical.

With how much Noivern has been bashed on this thread it may end up being RU, and I really do think if it actually drops there, it will be very dangerous.
 
I think Noivern is actually a little underrated here. Noivern's draco meteors hit harder than Crobat's brave birds and it is the fastest dragon type pokemon so it will still outspeed any non scarfed non boosted dragons and threaten them with a draco meteor. And it still outspeeds a lot of things. It will still hit hard with choice specs. I think the niche that Noivern has is that it can use switcheroo through subs so it can cripple dangerous pokes that like to use substitute such as bisharp and it can dump a choice specs on it when it tries to go for a sucker punch. A bisharp behind a sub with a swords dance up is really dangerous which is why I like the fact that Noivern has a way of crippling sub users and also annoying walls such as chansey in uu.

Here is a Noivern set I have been thinking of

Item: Choice Specs.
Ability: Infiltrator
Nature: Timid
252 evs special attack
252 evs speed
4 evs defense

Draco meteor
Switcheroo
Air slash/Hurricane
Flamethrower

This set seems so standard that if someone has already mentioned this than I apologise. The main point of this set is basically to revenge kill with specs Draco meteors and also flying type stab. If you are running politoed than use hurricane for a powerful flying type STAB otherwise stick to Air slash as it is more accurate. Switcheroo is there as a last ditch effort to stop a sweep from a pokemon behind a substitute that you know you can't take out with your attacking moves or a pokemon that is trying to set up on you. I like this pokemon. It can be used as a fast revenge killer or something that can cripple pokes that like to hide behind subs. and in the case of bisharp, it doesn't have to worry about taking a potential sucker punch to the face since it can switcheroo the choice specs. Even though this is a frail pokemon, the 4 evs in defense is to try and at least live priority moves since most priority is physical.

With how much Noivern has been bashed on this thread it may end up being RU, and I really do think if it actually drops there, it will be very dangerous.
The problem is that it doesn't reliably revenge kill as much as it should even with Specs and it's extremely predictable. Talonflame, Genesect and Greninja outclass it in practically every way in terms of revenge killing.
 
The problem is that it doesn't reliably revenge kill as much as it should even with Specs and it's extremely predictable. Talonflame, Genesect and Greninja outclass it in practically every way in terms of revenge killing.
Yeah but this pokemon is in UU beta and probably won't be OU so it shouldn't have to worry about competing with those pokes for an OU slot.
 
in VGC he's actually a very good Pseudo Supportive mon with Super Fang and Tailwind

everytime someone has a garchomp or something that takes a crap load of damage from draco meteor they switch to something really bulky or fairy type

Super fang destroys them, and if you pair it with something that can benefit from the 5 turn speed increase like Mega Chomp and then swap in a ttar or hippowdon for that sand force boost.

Lolgg

Noivern @ Lum Berry/Cheri Berry (because he's a magnet for thunder waves)
Nature: Modest/Timid
Ability: Infiltrator
252 HP/252 Spd (EV's haven't been checked to be optimal for VGC format)

Tailwind
Super Fang
Flame thrower
Draco Meteor
 
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The point I'm making is that if you want to hit anything reasonably hard at all with Novern, you're neglecting your Attack stat, which makes your U-Turns very subpar. Flygon however doesn't need to neglect his main stats for STAB, and will hit harder overall while being able to use U-Turn. If you don't use U-Turn, Noivern is an inferior Latios/Latias, and shouldn't really be used at all.
Except the point of U-Turn isn't to do damage. It never has (unless you're Genesect). The passive damage is just a bonus to being able to have match up advantages.
 
Except the point of U-Turn isn't to do damage. It never has (unless you're Genesect). The passive damage is just a bonus to being able to have match up advantages.
You're ignoring opportunity cost. It doesn't matter what the 'purpose' of U-Turn is. What matters is what you're giving up by effectively choosing to use Noivern for this purpose over something else, and whether or not that cost is worth it. It isn't in this case, specifically because other U-Turners similar to Noiver do more damage.
 
So I'm struggling to find what this thing is actually good for.

If you look at what it's pros are, it has high speed, Boom Burst, Frisk, and a couple of other neat little things. Problem is that it doesn't really have much worth when compared to Flygon and Latios/Latias. If you're using it as a standard Specs set, Latios does the job better. It flies without inheriting the Flying type weaknesses, Dragon Pulse does more damage than Boom Burst on Noivern, it has better resistances, isn't weak to Stealth Rock, still OHKO's almost everything it needs to with HP Fire compared to Flamethrower, and they both have item swaps. On top of all this, Latios does more damage. The only things Noivern has left is Frisk (useful, but eh...), Focus Miss, Hurrican with terribad accuracy, and U-Turn. And U-Turn is always going to be uninvested, coming off of 70 Base attack. And if you wanted something fast with U-Turn, Flygon does a better job. It's immune to Thunderwave and Electric moves, is able to go Scarfed for good speed, has better resistances, and it's U-Turn will actually do something.

It's speed isn't even that good. I mean, it IS good. But when compared to Latias and Latios, the only things it is outspeeding is Geninja, Tornadus-T, Azelf (?), Mega Absol and Houndoom (?), Serperior, Tornadus, Thunderus (Prankster...), Gengar, Espeon, and the Eon dragons themselves. I feel like the speed you gain isn't enough to compensate for the advantages you give up.
Hmm I feel like you are severely underrating Noivern. Firstly you've washed over the benefits of using him in one sentence, when actually having access to Frisk is a niche in itself. It gives you a ton more reliability when dealing with lead pokemon, as knowing the item tells you the moveset. It also lets you revenge kill much more reliably, without falling for choice scarves, expert belts or focus sashes. I don't think this ability should be so overlooked.

Secondly, while you are right that Noivern has a crippling stealth rock weakness, the eon twins have psychic typing, which is made even worse this gen due to the rising strength of both ghost and dark type moves, as well as the rise of sucker punch.

Lastly the two pokemon have very different support options. I'm sure Noivern has some potential outside of just specs even tho that set is most common by far. For instance, access to frisk, taunt, u-turn, and tailwind and incredible speed should make him a potent anti-lead, perhaps with a focus sash.

Another set could use a mixture of taunt, u-turn/roost and super fang to break down walls. Basically what I'm trying to say is that taunt is good guys.


Choice scarf is probably better than people think. People used to use choice scarf on deoxys-s despite its insane speed, because it works well as an anti-lead when also paired with taunt + a setup move (most likely tailwind) as well as something like draco meteor, which hits way harder than deoxys-s' fire punch. This Noivern has the distinction of surprising and beating all of the common scarfed dragons, scarfchomp gets ohko'd, as does scarfed latios. I dont think scarfed latias is a thing but it has a decent chance of beating that too. Alternatively you could drop the tailwind for flamethrower and gain a tool to always beat lead scarf genesect, one of the most bothersome pokemon in the metagame.
Something like this:

Noivern @ Choice Scarf | Frisk
Timid | 100 Hp / 252 SpA / 156 Spe
-Switcheroo
-Taunt
-Draco Meteor
-Flamethrower

156 speed is enough to beat anyone choice scarfed with 110 base speed. The rest is put into hp. This allows it to outspeed latios, terrakion, genesect, garchomp, basically any scarfed dragon. The extra hp allows it to do some fun things like switch into scarf victini and take less than 50% damage from both bolt strike and v-create. The combination of taunt + switcheroo + frisk means you can beat a lot of common setup leads. Naturally you also ohko genesect leads which are so common at the moment.




Also- has anyone considered using infiltrator with a not ultra-offensive set? He has access to toxic that hits through subs. I'm sure something like toxic + roost + sub + flamethrower could be used. You cant touch heatran though.


TLDR (although you should read it T_T)
I'm not saying Noivern is necessarily as good as or better than the twin dragons, because I dont think thats true. I'm just saying he definitely has a niche even with his somewhat shallow movepool, because he has enough when combined with his ability to carve some sort of niche.
 
You're ignoring opportunity cost. It doesn't matter what the 'purpose' of U-Turn is. What matters is what you're giving up by effectively choosing to use Noivern for this purpose over something else, and whether or not that cost is worth it. It isn't in this case, specifically because other U-Turners similar to Noiver do more damage.
Like what, Flygon? Because Noivern is a lot faster than Flygon, hits harder (97 SAtk vs 100 Atk, but its move pool consists of stronger moves), and also has a ton of utility moves.
 
Like what, Flygon? Because Noivern is a lot faster than Flygon, hits harder (97 SAtk vs 100 Atk, but its move pool consists of stronger moves), and also has a ton of utility moves.
Within my example, Flygon would be running Choice Scarf vs Noivern's Choice Specs. Flygon would be faster. It's U-Turn would hit much harder. And the only moves it has to hit harder with is Draco Meteor on certain Pokemon, and maybe Hurricane, which is very unreliable. Boomburst doesn't receive STAB. It's utility with Specs is limited to Switcheroo and U-Turn, and I've already covered the problem with U-Turn.

Noivern's attacks are really weak comparatively, even with Choice Specs, so I don't think it can really afford to go without one.
 
Within my example, Flygon would be running Choice Scarf vs Noivern's Choice Specs. Flygon would be faster. It's U-Turn would hit much harder. And the only moves it has to hit harder with is Draco Meteor on certain Pokemon, and maybe Hurricane, which is very unreliable. Boomburst doesn't receive STAB. It's utility with Specs is limited to Switcheroo and U-Turn, and I've already covered the problem with U-Turn.

Noivern's attacks are really weak comparatively, even with Choice Specs, so I don't think it can really afford to go without one.
Lol, way to manipulate the situation to your advantage. Noivern is faster and stronger than Flygon @ Lagging Tail! Noivern is better!

Noivern has Focus Blast, Hurricane, Boomburst (if this was a 93 BP Dragon/Flying move would you say anything about it lacking STAB?) and Draco Meteor as its high powered options, then coverage moves like Shadow Ball, Dark Pulse, and Flamethrower.

Noivern isn't outclassed by anything since its role differs from Flygon, Crobat and the like. No other Pokemon has access to Tailwind, Taunt, virtually unstoppable Switcheroo, and the ability to revenge kill by spamming Draco and then high tailing out of danger with U-Turn.
 
Lol, way to manipulate the situation to your advantage. Noivern is faster and stronger than Flygon @ Lagging Tail! Noivern is better!

Noivern has Focus Blast, Hurricane, Boomburst (if this was a 93 BP Dragon/Flying move would you say anything about it lacking STAB?) and Draco Meteor as its high powered options, then coverage moves like Shadow Ball, Dark Pulse, and Flamethrower.

Noivern isn't outclassed by anything since its role differs from Flygon, Crobat and the like. No other Pokemon has access to Tailwind, Taunt, virtually unstoppable Switcheroo, and the ability to revenge kill by spamming Draco and then high tailing out of danger with U-Turn.
I'm not manipulating the scenario. I'm saying that regardless of what Noivern chooses to do, at least offensively speaking, the player suffers from opportunity cost.

Sure, you can spam Hurricane and Focus Blast if you want. Both of those are extremely unreliable, and Noivern doesn't have the defensive stats to afford a miss.

You can go ahead and list all of the moves it gets, but the reality is that you can only fit four of them in to a set. For any given set you provide me, there's usually a Pokemon you could be using with those same 4 moves that's going to do Noivern's job better most of the time under more common situations.

I like Noivern, he's really cool. But looking at this objectively I don't see a major use for him.
 
I think a major niche for Noivern is its ability to switcheroo through substitute. I actually saw a match on showdown when Noivern switcherooed a choice specs on a plus 2 bisharp behind a sub that went for a sucker punch. Noivern is definitely good at stopping cold a potential sweeper that is behind a sub. Noivern is not that weak, choice specs draco meteor still OHKOS offensive pokes such as nidoking and Kyurem black in UU and its speed allows it to revenge kill pokes that have taken prior damage. Just because a pokemon can't OHKO entire teams, it doesn't mean its weak. I think people have got too much used to broken stuff in general. And you can abuse hurricane since politoed is also in the UU tier. Its fine if people don't want to use this poke or underrate it because If it ends up dropping down to RU, it will wreck teams.
 
thats not act
Personally I prefer Hurricane to Boomburst. Yea Boomburst has better accuracy but you got to keep in mind that Hurricane's accuracy is 100 in when it's raining. I personally use my Noivern in my rain team. He fits in perfect. However on a nonraining team Boomburst is probably the better option. As far as ability's go, I love Frisk when paired with Switcheroo but I love infiltrator for the fun it provides. Regardless, you can't go wrong with Noivern! He's one of the best pokes to come out lately! :D Enjoy him guys and I look forward to seeing him used in more and more ways in the future :D
people usally dont use rain teams MUCH! I SAID MUCH!!! NOT SAYING IT IS BAD!!! because how it only can be used for 5 turns in drizzle. although he would be very good with hurricane because an unexpected ion deluge would ruin a noiverns day if he was using boom burst. but i do agree, noivern is a good poke but like how vonk said
That's what I meant by a better attack, rather than his attack stat which is also better. But yeah flying is probably one of the most dangerous STABs out there right now as seen by Mega-Pinsir and Talonflame, and only Electric, Rock and Steel type pokemon can hope to stand up to it. But most Electric pokemon are frail and only like 2 rock pokemon (Rhyperior and Tyranitar) ever see play so generally only steel pokemon are a problem, but Noviern's Dragon Pulse does pathetic damage against them also. In 9/10 situations Crobat just completely outclasses Noviern, and in the 10th you'd be better off switching out anyways.
crobat completely outclasses noivern
 
Crobat is a physical attacker, Noivern is a special attacker and they are both different pokemon. Saying that crobat completely outclasses Noivern is not true because they both have there different niches. Its just like how people try to compare azumarill and diggersby. They are not the same pokemon.

I would rather be taking on a kyurem black with Noivern than with a crobat just like how I would rather be taking on a florges with crobat rather than noivern. There will always be situations where one is better than the other.
 
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Crobat is a physical attacker, Noivern is a special attacker and they are both different pokemon. Saying that crobat completely outclasses Noivern is not true because they both have there different niches. Its just like how people try to compare azumarill and diggersby. They are not the same pokemon.

I would rather be taking on a kyurem black with Noivern than with a crobat just like how I would rather be taking on a florges with crobat rather than noivern. There will always be situations where one is better than the other.
well honestly, i do think noivern is good pokemon but it usally relies on revenge killing to win. now crobat is better because it has better speed. tanks like talonflame and goodra can be killed with something like choice band crobat with that 130 base speed. on the other hand, noivern has to rely on luck with moves like hurricane (unless in rain) and focus blast where you have that chance where you can miss and get 2HK. boomburst can just get negated by ion deluge and plus moves like boom burst and focus blast dosent even get STAB while crobat gets STAB with both cross poison and brave bird

i realise that the situation could be diferent but thats my point of view.
 
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