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Noivern

Discussion in 'Doubles' started by lucariojr, Nov 5, 2013.

  1. lucariojr

    lucariojr goodra will hunting
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    [​IMG]

    Noivern is super cool and I bred one just because of that 'they revealed it months before release and I want it badly' factor. noivern isn't the stereotypical dragon though, with frisk being buffed (you can now see /both/ items of the opponents') and it not having the best special attack in the world along with no dragon gem as of yet, noivern is probably going to have a hard time following in its fellow dragons' footsteps. therefore, noivern is probably going to be one of the first dragons we look at in terms of how they can be used differently than what we have been using them as (beatsticks) considering the lengths of which they've been nerfed this generation.

    however, noivern doesn't really have too much to work with in terms of support; the only notable supportive moves it gets are tailwind, switcheroo, sunny day, taunt and super fang. so really, the real utility of noivern is frisk and a fighting-type killer, or perhaps a slower dragon check (i.e. latios). so here's a couple of sets that i think noivern could pull off;

    Noivern @ Life Orb / Focus Sash
    Timid nature, Frisk
    4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    Draco Meteor
    Air Slash
    Taunt / Tailwind
    Protect

    OR

    Noivern @ Choice Specs
    Timid Nature, Frisk
    4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    Draco Meteor
    Air Slash
    Flamethrower / Focus Blast / Dark Pulse
    Switcheroo

    The first set takes advantage of tailwind/taunt while the second set makes use of switcheroo to help determine which pokemon would be most crippled by specs (e.g. offensive cress doesn't mind being tricked as much). in both of these sets, noivern faces competition from salamence, which also has a cool ability in intimidate, the same typing, and usually runs similar moves. the biggest difference is that noivern gets taunt and can carry a choice specs while mence is usually better off with scarf, making noivern more powerful than mence in that sense, although it misses out on fire blast even though it gets flamethrower (???).

    so i guess the real questions i would like to have addressed in this thread is how useful is frisk, or how useful is knowing what your opponent's item is, especially when we have mega evolutions dependent on hold items? will mega evolutions be hard to spot, or will 'surprise prevention' be worth a team slot? obviously information is important in tourney matches where you're usually doing Bo3 but how worthwhile will frisk be in ladder matches where you might not battle the same person (with the same team) twice? this is all assuming that you picked noivern for frisk alone, but otherwise will noivern be worth it?
  2. TripleST

    TripleST

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    I haven't studied noivern much, but I can see a reason to use him over other dragons- boomburst. Base 130 power, 100 acc, hits through subs? And for doubles, I believe (don't have any personal proof yet) that it hits everything on the field. It's more powerful than air slash even after stab. Frisk, though. Is that the only ability it has? I wanna say that knowing an opponents held item isn't a good reason to use him. Most of the common items (choices, gems, leftovers, eviolite) are pretty obvious. I suppose knowing if they had assault vest or weakness policy could help.

    Edit: partnering with a telepathy pokemon, like beheeyem, could negate boomburst's downside. I'm sure something has that which works well with noivern.
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2013
  3. Madotsuki

    Madotsuki

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    It DOES get Telepathy, but I can't really think of a use for that considering it's either resistant or immune to most moves that hit the whole field. Infiltrator can bypass Substitute, but Boomburst does that anyway. I guess that'd be its best ability though.
  4. nyttyn

    nyttyn Ribbit!
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    To be entirely honest, Noivern...I want to like Noivern. I really, really do. Boomburst is such a fun toy, and usable frisk is awsum, but the fact of the matter is, its extremely mediocore stats and somewhat limited movepool leave it pretty wanting. It's also saddled with quite frankly the shittiest dragon typing, dragon/flying, leaving it quad weak to blizzard, ice beam, icy wind...all sorts of shit. Also, relying on Hurricane is p bad, and the fact that boomburst also hits your partner is very much sucktown.

    I really don't see this guy making it in Doubles. Doesn't have the stats or the moves to really make it.
  5. Scalrag

    Scalrag

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    Excuse my obliviousness, but I'm confused as to why boomburst isn't being given more serious consideration. Sure, it hits your partner, but couldn't you negate that by partnering Noivern with a ghost, or just having it's partner use protect? Protect seems to be a staple in doubles play, anyway. Other spread moves hit your partners too and they're still well-used. Plus, Noivern is the fastest dragon-type now. Shouldn't that count for something? From lurking around, it already seems like doomsday for dragons, though, so I guess I can see why people are disappointed with Noivern. What makes me so confused is that the last time I looked at its topic on the singles board, Noivern is being actually considered as a viable candidate. I just assumed that having such a powerful spread move would make him perfect for Doubles. Now the general consensus is that he's useless. What am I missing? What's so different in doubles that he's fit to be banished from use?
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2013
    scarfConnoisseur, Leocul and Shiruba like this.
  6. TGL-00

    TGL-00

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    Noivern is pretty much crippled by Thunderwave, and is pretty useless under Trick Room because of it's lack of priority so it needs to switch in carefully. Talonflame outclasses Noivern as a fast attacker because priority Brave Bird is so good, as well as being able to run Tailwind, Taunt and Sunny Day for team support. Boomburst just doesn't add any coverage, and when you have access to 110+ BP STAB and coverage moves, it seems pretty redundant - if you're that concerned about hitting through subs, run Infiltrator over Frisk.

    I'm surprised there's no mention of STAB Hurricane in the OP: with access to Focus Blast as an alternative instead of Fire Blast to hit steels, it could be quite effective on rain teams as an alternative to Talonflame, although it can't set up rain itself. Flying + Fighting gives good enough coverage that you could potentially forego Draco Meteor/Dragon Pulse in favour of two of Taunt/Tailwind/Switcheroo/Protect. Itemwise, I'd rather run Lum Berry to block paralysis (or a gem when released) and use Frisk + Switcheroo to steal a Life Orb or Choice Specs to give Noivern a boost in power later in the match. Alternatively, using Infiltrator allows you to get past Screens, which are everywhere atm thanks to KlefStic, so it might have a little more utility than Frisk if you aren't planning on using Switcheroo.
  7. Pwnemon

    Pwnemon Switching is a metagame trend
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    Doubles Co-Lead

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    There's multiple things I can think of as to why Noivern is not at the top of the theorycharts:

    1) Boomburst is way overhyped. Even after their nerfs, STAB Heat Wave and STAB Blizzard are stronger without hitting your partner—and STAB Muddy Water is just behind, again without hitting your partner. STAB EQ is also stronger, and though it hits your partner, there are a hell of a lot more levitators and flying-types in doubles than there are ghosts and soundproof mons. Anyway, Boomburst's typing is way worse than those other moves.
    2) He has no slow mode. If your Noivern is up against TR or gets hit by a Thunder Wave, you might as well just sack him because he's going to be basically useless. His one selling point is his speed, and after that his stats are pretty bad (luke pls add 85 / 70 / 80 / 97 / 80 / 123 to the OP); he can take a hit better than some (like Talonflame) but not two.
    3) His offenses are pretty bad (^). The only dragon that Noivern hits harder than is fucking altaria, and he can't take hits nearly as well. In addition, his movepool completely lacks ways to break staple Pokemon such as Tyranitar and Heatran (once released) (oh wait he gets focus blast but still he can't hit everything at once) and without Dragon Gem he hits like a bitch unless Specs. His Dragon STAB gets neutral coverage except against other dragons, which aren't looking too crazy popular this gen, so he kind of sucks.

    That said, I can still think of some niches for Noivern. With Infiltrator he can break SubWoW tree; he can serve as an anti-Dragon; he can scout items and cripple with switcheroo, and some other minor things. But Noivern is not even close to a Pokemon for every team.

    edit: durn ninjas
  8. TorchicBlaziken

    TorchicBlaziken

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    How good of a gimmick is having Pixilate Sylveon using Skill Swap on Telepathy Noivern?
  9. Loudo

    Loudo

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    I believe many Pokémon that would use Substitute in Doubles are Steel-types (Heatran, Excadrill) or Ghost-types (Trevenant) anyway.
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2013
  10. lucariojr

    lucariojr goodra will hunting
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    what would that even accomplish, and generally skill swap sucks unless you're passing on an immunity ability like levitate
  11. TorchicBlaziken

    TorchicBlaziken

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    lol the idea was that Noivern would get a boosted fairy spread move that doesn't harm ally Sylveon
  12. The_Grey_King

    The_Grey_King

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    Loudred is going to generally be the better boomburster, thanks to stab and scrappy. That said, it's funny that you can run a double Boomburst frontline with Telepathy Noivern and Soundproof Loudred, though you have no way to hit ghosts...
  13. Talpr0ne

    Talpr0ne

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    Another interesting gimmick is Electrify Electivire and Boomburst Noivern. Electrify has priority and gives to Noivern an Electric type Boomburst, while the Electivire's speed is boosted by motor drive.
    BlankZero likes this.
  14. Scalrag

    Scalrag

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    Does Electivire learn Electrify? I looked up the move and Bulbapedia, Serebii, and the discussion on the move in the singles forums all say that only Helioptile/Heliolisk learn it. Also, I don't think that it has priority either, in which case this strategy doesn't work considering that Electrify needs to go first. Heliolisk is decently fast, but not faster than Noivern unless boosted I guess, but it hardly seems worth it. Noivern doesn't get stab on it, it's not strong against any of the types that normal would be weak to/ineffective against or any of Noivern's own weaknesses. Plus, without motor drive or something like that, there's no way Heliolisk can protect against the damage.

    It's an interesting concept. If anything, Electivire (or Zebstrika or Lanturn) with Ion Deluge would probably be a better bet for this type of strategy. Still gimmicky, but has potential since ALL normal moves, including status moves, would turn electric and activate motor drive/lightningrod/volt absorb. Plus Ion Deluge actually does have priority, if Serebii is right (is this confirmed? Veekun says priority is 0). Regardless, even if Serebii is right, it's still not as much priority as fake out, so it can still be stopped relatively easily if predicted.
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2013
  15. Talpr0ne

    Talpr0ne

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    Sorry, i meant Ion Delgue, not Electrify.
  16. greybob

    greybob

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    I think that Noivern could benefit a lot from a partner that can induce paralysis. It would offer some protection against retaliating hits in the case that Hurricane misses outside of rain, and Hurricane's high chance to confuse could add extra annoyance to the opponent. I've used this strategy in Singles and it works pretty well, I can only imagine that it would be even better in doubles where you can paralyze and use Hurricane in one turn, and without having to worry about switching. I don't have a lot of experience in Doubles, but I thought this idea could be useful to somebody.
  17. Darkmalice

    Darkmalice Like a facepalm, but better
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    Relying on full paralysis is always unreliable. You use it mainly for permanent speed control which gels poorly with Noivern's Speed. And it would work worse in Doubles because there are two opposing Pokemon that could potentially threaten Noivern, and you may not be able to paralysis both let alone the chances of both of them being fully paralysed in one turn.

    If you really wanted to offer Noivern protection, you would be better off with strategies that are more conventional in Doubles like Fake Out, Rage Powder, and Follow Me, or Wide Guard if it is Rock Slide and Blizzard that you really need to protect Noivern from as opposed to most moves in general. Spore works too, though it is harder to pull off reliably. Sky Drop is also an option, though this would be stacking up on Flying-types for yout ream.
  18. Moxiecross99

    Moxiecross99

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    Noivern is my baby! I have used one all the way though and I find it to be my most effective pokemon. I like infiltrator because of the increasing use of Klefki's screens, plus specs give it the SpA boost it needs to do serious damage. It also outspeeds all other dragons so it haas a niche as an effective dragon slayer and fighting-type killer. I run:


    Noivern @ Choice Specs
    Modest Nature, Infiltrator
    4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Draco Meteor
    Hurricane
    Flamethrower
    Switcheroo

    This set hits hard with a Modest nature, which allows it to still, I feel, outspeed most of what Timid Noivern does anyway and hit hard which is crucial in a fast doubles game. I see the appeal of a 140/11 damage spread move, but infiltrator hits through subs anyway and the lack of stab makes me want to kill someone.
    lucariojr likes this.
  19. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    Noivern hits DMs through Subs. Automatically best dragon yo.
    Moxiecross99 likes this.
  20. Ludicolo_Dancer

    Ludicolo_Dancer

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    The way i use him is with rain support hurricane with infiltrator. then it is a ohko on almost every grass, fighting, bug type and still gonna do massive damage

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