1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Nominating user Thorhammer for PR acces

Discussion in 'Private' started by mien, Oct 28, 2010.

  1. mien

    mien
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2008
    Messages:
    730
    In this topic it was suggested to use this subforum to nominate users for PR acces. Since nobody has any objections to this suggestion, i suppose i'm allowed to make this topic.

    Thorhammer definitely stands out in Uncharted Territory with his intelligent reasoning and knowledge of both the competitive game and the game mechanics alike. He appears to be mature however i do not know if he has gained any infractions so far.

    He may not have a history of significant contributions or competitive achievements, however i think his intelligence alone would make him an excellent addition to PR.
  2. jrrrrrrr

    jrrrrrrr wubwubwub
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 23, 2006
    Messages:
    3,172
    Can we please have some examples of his posting history instead of just a link to his profile?

    You said it yourself- he doesn't have a significant history of contributions here and he doesn't have the "but he's good!" aura around him to back him up. On top of that, his wall references the fact that he just wants to join so that he can have a vote in the polls. I don't really see anything that merits his addition at this time. It's good that he has an interest in how pokemon is run, but in order to actually help dictate policy I think you need a bit more than that on your resume.
  3. cim

    cim happiness is such hard work
    is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2007
    Messages:
    5,412
    He's been an intelligent poster in the various Policy threads in UC, and in addition his posts in the Analysis forum demonstrate his knowledge of the new Pokemon changes. I don't see why he would not be a welcome voice in here.

    (If you want examples of his posts, just look at his last 50 posts or so)
  4. jrrrrrrr

    jrrrrrrr wubwubwub
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 23, 2006
    Messages:
    3,172
    I don't see why you guys can't just take some examples of his best posts and post them here for everyone to judge. That used to be a requirement for nominating anyone for anything. I looked through his recent history and didn't see anything so spectacular that would instantly make me want him to be in PR over a bunch of other posters in the UT forum. I know I haven't been here for a while but I don't think asking for a bit of proof is unreasonable, especially now that we don't have to worry so much about numbers. His posts aren't outstanding and his motives appear to be that he just wants to join PR because he wants to have a vote in the polls, not because he wants to help us.
  5. mien

    mien
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2008
    Messages:
    730
    Source? I have searched through all his latest posts and i could not find a single one in which he explicitly states he wants to vote in the PR polls. In fact he said he did not want to vote in the Evasion and OHKO topic in UT.
    He does show intrest however in the Pokemon Policy and participating in PR. Isn't that prove that he wants to contribute to the PR discussions?

    I dislike the idea of using 'his best posts', whether a post is considered good is completely subjective and varies for each person. Besides i'd rather see someone who makes posts with consistent quality, then someone who makes an impressive post once in a while and doesn't really care about the rest. Regardless if this is a necessary requirement for nominations i'm willing to search for his 'best posts'. However you will have to show me an example what the community considered a PR-worthy post in the past so i can make a comparison.

    Do note however that his posts are made in Uncharted Territory. To make an argument in that forum your posts have to be short and to the point, otherwise your average user will not read it. Making a long well thought post in Uncharted Territory, like they do in PR, would simply be a waste of time.


    I can provide you however with my personal impressions of his posts(his last 50 posts, as the search function does not show me older posts)
    - He always responds in a respectfull manner to the person he's addressing too, even if this person is an idiot.
    - He never makes mistakes, he does not make a statement without researching or calculating it first. For example he would not say that Garchomp is a valuable check/counter to Doryuuzu as it clearly KO's even without Life Orb after an SD.
    - His posts show a clear level of intelligence, this is of course subjective but i'm certain i'm not the only one with this impression.
  6. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 29, 2008
    Messages:
    4,269
    I have to agree that I haven't been too terribly impressed with his posts, and there's very little history of him in general- I hadn't actually even heard of him until he posted approximately infinite times in the "Should we start with a banlist in Gen 5?" topic (no joke, he has 152 posts in that thread), basically saying the exact same thing every time and then calling out or attacking people for not sharing his viewpoint. If anything, that shows that his general debate style is just to badger people into agreeing with him.

    Maybe if he had more history, I'd be more accepting, but as it stands I don't see him as any better than just the average user who likes to voice his viewpoint very loudly.
  7. Elevator Music

    Elevator Music
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2008
    Messages:
    7,744
    This is pretty much how I felt about Thorhammer, since I also posted in that thread way more than I should have... (pc++???)

    "Agreeing"
  8. mien

    mien
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2008
    Messages:
    730
    Source? I have read all his last 50 posts and could not find any 'attack' on someone who disagrees with his viewpoint.

    To me a verbal attack is using an ad hominem or generally ridiculing those who do not share his viewpoint. I have not seen him saying that someone was stupid or that those who do not share his viewpoint are crying.
  9. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 29, 2008
    Messages:
    4,269
    http://www.smogon.com/forums/search.php?searchid=2530422

    Those are his last 50 posts in the banlist thread. (note that this is all of 1/3 of the posts he's made in that thread, and the posts in that thread are a full 1/4 of his entire postcount). Many of his posts there are filled with subtle condescension, talking about how "he's explained over and over" or "post #x is absurd and irrelevant" (actual quote), or how he finds someone's point "laughable", and all sorts of other things. His posts don't display any special quality, and the only notable quality of his policy-related posts are that there are a bajillion of them. They lack the depth needed, and they pretty much just state the same thing over and over in hopes of bludgeoning people with his opinion.
  10. jrrrrrrr

    jrrrrrrr wubwubwub
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 23, 2006
    Messages:
    3,172
    Wanting to is not the same as being qualified to.

    Ok, then can you show us some of his quality posts? You are the one nominating him, I assumed that you would have at least something prepared considering you're asking US for the sources. Give us a better impression of the guy. He could very well be "PR material", but you haven't shown us anything to prove it.
  11. mien

    mien
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2008
    Messages:
    730
    I was responding to a sentence in which you explicitly state that 'he just wants to have a vote in the polls, not because he wants to help us', as a reason not to alow PR acces.
    I would truly appreciate it if you would refrain from bringing my words out of context, this topic isn't about winning or losing an argument.

    Regardless my intention was to improve PR by nominating someone i thought was qualified to participate. However nothing will improve by adding a user with this much initial opposition as such i'm willing to withdraw my nomination.
  12. Firestorm

    Firestorm I did my best, I have no regrets!
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon IRC AOp Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2007
    Messages:
    7,310
    Did we change the requirements for PR all of a sudden? The opposition seems to indicate that.
  13. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 29, 2008
    Messages:
    4,269
    In the past, PR has been given either as an additional perk to having a badge, or for people who have a history of insightful and effective posts. Recently, we've also extended that to players who have displayed significant skill at the game, shown by the mass influx of new posters. Thorhammer has displayed neither of those. His only notable posts are a gigantic flood of average posts in which he attempted to bludgeon people with his viewpoint by saying the same thing over and over again about 150 times, and let's note that this is a little less than 1/4 of his entire postcount.

    From the description of the forum:

    His policy-related posts don't display any great insight other than "we need to test stuff because otherwise how will we know", and as for respect, his tendency to do stuff like consistently point how many times he's said things (which doesn't make them more valid) or to call posts "absurd and irrelevant" or "laughable" doesn't reflect very well on him there.
  14. mien

    mien
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2008
    Messages:
    730
    When i made this topic i assumed the proces would be like Hitmonlee described in his topic in PR. A simple 'democratic' proces in which the only requirement to gain access to PR was that the nominee got less then 7 objections. I did not expect to hear a remark from Jrrrrrrr in which he accuses me for being unprepared, seeing as until now i have not yet heard anyone saying that was necessary.

    Apparently i was wrong, according to Jrrrrrrr and Seven Deadly Sins a different proces is used for those who have not made any significant contributions or competitive achievements. They have to fulfill more requirements before gaining PR access then those who have contributed.

    I understand their logic, however the requirements you gave Seven Deadly Sins are vague. Could you please enlighten me and tell me what those requirements actually mean, by answering these questions?
    - Has it ever been confirmed by an administrator that these requirements are still in effect?
    - What makes a user's posts PR-worthy? Do his posts in UT have to be comparable to those badgeholders made in UT? or do his posts have to be like PR in UT with long intelligent and insightfull posts(even though half of the users there won't read/understand what you are saying)? or do they have to make up for their lack of contributions and make truly exceptional posts above those of the average badgeholder?
    - What makes a user's posts respectful? Is it fine if he just follows the rules and does not have any recent infractions? or do they have to be truly respectful? If so why should this post be considered more respectful then this post?
    - What do you mean by having a history of insightfull posts? Do you mean that someone has to have made PR-worthy posts for over a year? Are people who only posted insightfully in the past allowed, even though they may not know anything about the new generation? Is it possible for a person who has joined in 2010 to join?
    - To Jrrrrrrr, what makes a 'best post' for the community(preferably an example post)? I'm not going to spend hours reading 500 of his posts searching for what i consider his 'best post', only to hear from you that isn't the kind of post you are looking for.

    These are a lot of questions i admit. However i think having these questions answered is necessary if we want to use the requirement system you mentioned.
  15. bojangles

    bojangles IF YOU TRULY BELIEVE,
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 23, 2008
    Messages:
    2,911
    I don't see what the problem is with linking to a couple of his good posts. PR is about being a consistently intelligent poster, so it seems like seeing some examples of this is directly related to whether Thorhammer gets accepted or not.

    Your claim here (which as far as I'm concerned is neither right nor wrong yet) implies that you've seen some good posts by him. Would you mind linking them? That's all SDS and jrrrrrrr are asking as far as I can see.
  16. Veedrock

    Veedrock

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2008
    Messages:
    2,780
    Since one of the targets of the first wave of new additions was intelligent UT users, I actually did consider nominating Thorhammer at that time. While looking through a couple of posts he does look like a promising canidate, further investigation shows exactly what SDS brings up; every one of his posts is pretty much restates his opinion, and he does this over and over again. He even goes out of his way to say that he's said it before, almost as if that should be the endpoint to discussion because his opinion is the way it should be. Maybe I'm being a bit cynical in my interpretation though.

    I don't necessarily think he'd be a bad member of Policy Review, but his list of qualifications are short and narrow. Since a majority of his opinions relate to our banlist, and the polling is already taking place (and it's looking like we'll have an initial list), I think it'd be worthwhile to wait and see what direction his posts take after the fact.
  17. cim

    cim happiness is such hard work
    is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2007
    Messages:
    5,412
    My support of Thorhammer is wavering a little so I don't want to fill this thread with defenses, but I feel it's worth noting that most of the time Thorhammer's repetitive posts are because he's basically restarting his argument with some of the newer posters in the thread. Considering how gigantic the thread is, it's unreasonable to expect random people to read all 100 pages and to find his argument on page 73 or whatever.

    I feel it's also worth noting that all it would have taken to get him into PR in the first place would have been for his name to be dropped in the old thread; I doubt he would have more than 6 objections in the other thread. We certainly have admitted worse posters in here (insert your favorite joke about me here if you must).
  18. mien

    mien
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2008
    Messages:
    730
    After reading some of his posts i think the fellowing two posts show proof of his intelligence and knowledge of the game. I do wish i had an example post of a former PR nominee to compare though.

    Both posts only contain 1 or 2 lines, though i think there is more research and thought behind these posts then some extremely long rants ones i saw in UT.

    Post 1#
    Only very few people actually know the difference between the 'rose greatly' and 'rose sharply' message in-game. Considering the difference is only stated once in the entire research topic and not even directly in the OP. This post proves that we better shouldn't be using games with an English patch as a source for confirming game mechanics. I think this, together with several other posts, shows that he has clear knowledge and interest in the game's mechanics.

    As a researcher i may be biased, but i consider a good knowledge of the game mechanics as a must for any PR member. Seeing as the game's mechanics are the source of many (important) debates in this forum.

    Post 2#
    I think this post is certainly one of the most influencial ones in the entire 'Should we start with a banlist in Gen 5?' topic. I think his reasoning is one many UT members have fellowed for their vote in that topic.

    I have no hard proof now, but I think most users in UT actually do want an initial banlist but not one that includes controversial pokemon. As such for many users choosing for a banlist in that topic was a bit of a gamble. It might be that PR chooses the banlist you had in mind but it's also possible that PR chooses one that you certainly didn't want. In other words i think many users who voted 'no banlist' wanted to play it safe, to ensure that the pokemon they want tested will be tested.
  19. Lee

    Lee @ Thick Club
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2007
    Messages:
    4,487
    a recent policy post by thorhammer

    My initial impressions of him are that he is knowledgable and helpful but that he is just so darn stubborn in his policy beliefs that I question whether he'd be able to provide the level of impartiality we want in PR members.
    In that regard, he reminds me of a much less douchey version of SJCrew.

    Still, I'd rather we weren't so elitist *gasp* with our PR admission policy. He's been around a few years, has made quite a few decent policy posts like the one I linked to, his last infraction expired nearly two years ago, and he has generally been a positive influence on UT. PR will benefit from a wide cross-section of users, not just old veterans and tourney experts. Allowing people like Thorhammer will make the average UT poster trust the decisions of PR a little bit more IMO.
  20. mien

    mien
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2008
    Messages:
    730
    This topic has been open for 9 days, which is past the one week limit for nomination topics as described in Hipmonlee's proces. Not to mention that nobody has posted in a week, as such it's unlikely that this topic will bring any more debate.

    Has any decision been made or will it be delayed until a conclusion has come from the PR nomination Proces topic? (which has been silent for the past 4 days as well)
  21. Philip7086

    Philip7086 Myuu
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnusis Smogon Frontier's Factory Headis a Past WCoP Winneris a SPL Winnerdefeated the Smogon Frontier

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2008
    Messages:
    3,084
    The latter. We're still trying to decide how we want to grant PR access in the future, and will likely be wiping the slate clean.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)