Non-Sig Item Revamp

Frosty

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Uh, let's do this with some glimpse of order.

The items mentioned here are:

Binding Band: Bind, Clamp, Fire Spin, Infestation, Magma Storm, Sand Tomb, Wrap, and Whirlpool inflict double (x2) damage at the end of each of the target Pokemon's actions.
Grip Claw: The partial trapping and damaging effect of Bind, Clamp, Fire Spin, Infestation, Magma Storm, Sand Tomb, Wrap, and Whirlpool last a guaranteed eight (8) actions unless counteracted by another move.
Flame Orb: At the end of each round, the Pokemon is inflicted with burn.
Toxic Orb: At the end of each round, the Pokemon is inflicted with bad poison.
Focus Band: Damage taken by this Pokemon by any single attack is reduced to at most 20% of this Pokemon's max HP (20 Damage for Pokemon with 100 Base HP, 18 Damage for Pokemon with 90 Base HP, and so on). Damaging combos are not affected by Focus Band.
Damp Rock: Causes Drizzle to cost no energy to activate, extends the duration of the move Rain Dance to six (6) rounds, and enables rain to be used in all arenas where it might otherwise be disallowed.
Heat Rock: Causes Drought to cost no energy to activate, extends the duration of the move Sunny Day to six (6) rounds, and enables sun to be used in all arenas where it might otherwise be disallowed.
Icy Rock: Causes Snow Warning to cost no energy to activate, extends the duration of the move Hail to six (6) rounds, and enables hail to be used in all arenas where it might otherwise be disallowed.
Smooth Rock: Causes Sand Stream to cost no energy to activate, extends the duration of the move Sandstorm to six (6) rounds, and enables sandstorm to be used in all arenas where it might otherwise be disallowed.
Light Clay: Extends the duration of Reflect and Light Screen to nine (9) actions and the duration of Safeguard to six (6) rounds. Increases the Defense boost of Barrier to +3.
BrightPowder: Reduces move accuracy of moves used against the Pokemon by ten (10).
Muscle Band: Increases the Base Attack Power of all physical attacks used by the Pokemon by one (1).
Wide Lens: Increases move accuracy by ten (10).
Wise Glasses: Increases the Base Attack Power of all special attacks used by the Pokemon by one (1).


I am willing to add the following:

- Cleanse Tag: Needs to be updated with new freezing. Also, it could remove the secondary effects of burn and the possibility of full paralysis. Heck, the last part would make it the best item possible to bring to electric gym -_-. Yes it is still iffy, but at least it makes its niche somewhat more...clear.
- Metronome: Given that everybody has either torment or disable (well not everybody, but a fair number of people), I would add some kind of immunity to that (maybe only to torment). Also, something about same move combos should be included. Maybe something about consecutive use cost.
- Rocky Helmet: fuck the rounding. Boost to 30% if necessary, but no need to keep this rounding here.
- Shell Bell: you need 24hp of damage (without boosting items duh) to make this better than Leftovers. I would fix the percentages here, as they are lackluster with the boosted leftovers.
- Power Items: +2 stat = 14 damage over 8 actions when given decay. With the exception of Tail Glow and Cotton Spore (boosts to 30 damage), those items basically give or remove 14 damage over 8 actions, which is pitiful really, but to make matters worse, it does that with the cost of 50% speed. I would consider boosting the percentages. Also Power Anklet is hilarious lol, given that you end up with the exact same speed boost by using agility with ot without it (a +1 speed move is actually better without the item).



As for the others, I will give another 48h for another suggestions or (dis)agreement with my suggestions above. After that we will go those items one by one. Starting with the trapping items since we already started on them -_-.
 

Dogfish44

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I'd like to bring Ring Target and Sticky Barb forward as items that might need a buff. Probably along the lines of a limited number of passes / round, or some synergy with Knock Off.

Frosty: I'm not sure I follow on Power Items. Lemme demonstrate, assuming 3 actions per round. Decay at the end of R2 and the end of R3

No Power Item said:
Round 1: +0 / +4 / +4
Round 2: +4 / +4 / +4
Round 3: +2 / +2 / +2

Total: 26
Power Item said:
Round 1: +0 / +8 / +8
Round 2: +8 / +8 / +8
Round 3: +6 / +6 / +6

Total: 58
Assuming you can land all 8 hits, boosting with a Power item gives +32 damage over 8 actions - and then in theory a further 18. I think you calculated decay at the end of R1?

wrt Power Items, I'd just remove Power Weight entirely, and remove the *0.5 Speed on the others, or replace them with a *0.75.

And I think I take offense to your comment on my gym =(
 

Frosty

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oops. Yes I made a boo boo.

if you have a doubles electric gym, then getting paralyzed is part of business. It wasn't a comment aimed at your personal capacity to net more paralysis than the usual outside the gym
 

Frosty

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carry on.

Binding Band: Bind, Clamp, Fire Spin, Infestation, Magma Storm, Sand Tomb, Wrap, and Whirlpool inflict double (x2) damage at the end of each of the target Pokemon's actions.
Grip Claw: The partial trapping and damaging effect of Bind, Clamp, Fire Spin, Infestation, Magma Storm, Sand Tomb, Wrap, and Whirlpool last a guaranteed eight (8) actions unless counteracted by another move.
The first enhances the damage at the end of the round and the second guarantees 8 rounds

Zt suggested:

Binding Band: Increases EN cost of all Partial Trapping Moves by one (1). Partial Trapping Moves bypasses all immunities, have doubled (2x) BAP, and inflict double (x2) damage at the end of each of the target Pokemon's actions.

Grip Claw: Increases EN cost of all Partial Trapping Moves by one (1), and double (x2) the BAP of Partial Trapping Moves. The partial trapping and damaging effect of Partial Trapping Moves last a guaranteed eight (8) actions, and can be stacked up to multiple (there should be a limit to this heheh) times.

Which is a good start, but I don't feel it is enough. Also, stacking and immunity bypass kinda irks me. Finally, Magma Storm with double BAP is adorable.

and +1en is...uh. I doubt it makes any kind of difference.

So I have a different proposal following a similar line.

Binding Band: Bind, Clamp, Fire Spin, Infestation, Magma Storm, Sand Tomb, Wrap, and Whirlpool have their BAP increased by 4 and inflict Triple (3x) damage at the end of each of the target Pokemon's actions.
Grip Claw: The partial trapping and damaging effect of Bind, Clamp, Fire Spin, Infestation, Magma Storm, Sand Tomb, Wrap, and Whirlpool last a guaranteed eight (8) actions, regardless of the user switching or the moves used by the trapped pokemon. The BAP of those moves is increased by 4 and they have perfect accuracy.
The first basically stacks up the damage. The second makes trapping guaranteed, except for shed shell, ghost typing and more restrict stuff.

Dunno if it is enough, but I seriously feel we shouldn't be modest here. at all.
 

Frosty

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I will take the silence as acceptance. Or lack of interest.

Personally I feel Grip Claw might still be not that good compared to Binding Band. Maybe confer the ability to bypass protect and/or substitute? That would be bonkers, but that is kinda the point. Still, not gonna do it unless there is feedback on the matter. So...thoughts?


- - - -

Flame Orb: At the end of each round, the Pokemon is inflicted with burn.
Toxic Orb: At the end of each round, the Pokemon is inflicted with bad poison.
I have two proposals on the matter, depending on how much you want to boost it.

One is more conservative:

Flame Orb: At the end of each action, the Pokemon is inflicted with burn.
Toxic Orb: At the end of each action, the Pokemon is inflicted with bad poison.
(Action>Round)

and the other goes one step further into ingame realm:

Flame Orb: At the end of each action, the Pokemon is inflicted with burn. If the holder of this item is currently burned due to its effect, it cannot receive any other major status.
Toxic Orb: At the end of each action, the Pokemon is inflicted with bad poison. If the holder of this item is currently badly poisoned due to its effect, it cannot receive any other major status.

Thoughts?
 

JJayyFeather

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Honestly, given what I would use a Grip Claw for, I would prefer Grip Claw over Binding Band here. To get 8 actions of residual damage and trapping is huge because you can switch in, opponent can't switch next round, and you can prevent Endure for about 2-3 rounds.

I prefer the second proposal, only because I feel like inducing yourself with these statuses is already a huge gambit, and having more statuses added on can only make matters worse.
 
I don't have any strong opinion on Grip Claw/Binding Band revamp. Course I'll probably end up regretting it once it's implemented.

For Flame Orb and Toxic Orb, I'd support the cannot receive any other major status one, if only because it'd make them considerably more useful than they currently are. I'm totally non-biased here since I totally don't have an Ursaring that would love these boosts.
 

ZhengTann

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Grip Claw and Binding Band would serve different purposes - partial trapping effects are removed as soon as the user is removed from the field, so they both serve different niches (2R lockdown versus higher, more concentrated DoT). A good Grip Claw user would have to be able to survive more than 2 rounds minimum in order to make good use of it in Singles, but I think in Multiples it would give insane matchup control with walls like, uh, Shuckle. Plus, perfect Accuracy means it can hit through even evasive phases, right?

Orb nitpick from silly ol' me - this means an opponent has one action to cripple with any other major status at A1 against the Orb holder, right? And the major status immunity still persist even after switch-out / Orb being Knocked Off / anything else I have yet to think up?
 

Frosty

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Orb nitpick from silly ol' me - this means an opponent has one action to cripple with any other major status at A1 against the Orb holder, right?
Yes. Like in-game. That is when you protect, like ingame.

And the major status immunity still persist even after switch-out / Orb being Knocked Off / anything else I have yet to think up?
Yes. If you can track down the origin of the burn/toxic to a orb, the effect kicks in. Even if the orb is not currently being held.
 

Frosty

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btw just for the record: I haven't presented the ideas above to the mods, so we will probably do the inverse procedure as last time. Those are still suggestions discussed and they aren't final by any means.

- - -

carry on.

Focus Band: Damage taken by this Pokemon by any single attack is reduced to at most 20% of this Pokemon's max HP (20 Damage for Pokemon with 100 Base HP, 18 Damage for Pokemon with 90 Base HP, and so on). Damaging combos are not affected by Focus Band.
I am not 100% sure why this is on the list of weak items. Can someone explain to me?
 

Texas Cloverleaf

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I think people are wondering why combos are limited. I was wondering that myself until I had a to fight a focus band Mon where the only way to keep pace damage was to use combos because my regular attacks couldn't even break 20. I think it's totally fine.
 

Frosty

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Thought so.

NEXT

Damp Rock: Causes Drizzle to cost no energy to activate, extends the duration of the move Rain Dance to six (6) rounds, and enables rain to be used in all arenas where it might otherwise be disallowed.
Heat Rock: Causes Drought to cost no energy to activate, extends the duration of the move Sunny Day to six (6) rounds, and enables sun to be used in all arenas where it might otherwise be disallowed.
Icy Rock: Causes Snow Warning to cost no energy to activate, extends the duration of the move Hail to six (6) rounds, and enables hail to be used in all arenas where it might otherwise be disallowed.
Smooth Rock: Causes Sand Stream to cost no energy to activate, extends the duration of the move Sandstorm to six (6) rounds, and enables sandstorm to be used in all arenas where it might otherwise be disallowed.
This is good for the most part. Niche, at least. But the last part and the tendency of some Gym Leaders to restrict stones on arena effects make me eager to do this:

Damp Rock: Causes Drizzle to cost no energy to activate, extends the duration of the move Rain Dance to six (6) rounds, and enables rain to be used in all arenas where it might otherwise be disallowed, without any kind of restriction.
Heat Rock: Causes Drought to cost no energy to activate, extends the duration of the move Sunny Day to six (6) rounds, and enables sun to be used in all arenas where it might otherwise be disallowed, without any kind of restriction.
Icy Rock: Causes Snow Warning to cost no energy to activate, extends the duration of the move Hail to six (6) rounds, and enables hail to be used in all arenas where it might otherwise be disallowed, without any kind of restriction.
Smooth Rock: Causes Sand Stream to cost no energy to activate, extends the duration of the move Sandstorm to six (6) rounds, and enables sandstorm to be used in all arenas where it might otherwise be disallowed, without any kind of restriction.
I mean, if the guy is wasting a good item and the opportunity cost of using a weather move or a drought mon, then they should receive the full force of it. Not some bogus "weather induced by stones last 2 rounds" baloney I have seen around.

We could also reduce the cost of weather moves, but I dunno how much this is fluff or this is actualy needed.

thoughts?
 

JJayyFeather

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1) yes, Weather Rocks should be a thing in all arenas
2) I don't know if this is already assumed implicitly, but Weather Rocks should also extend the duration of the abilities to 6 rounds (to parallel their in-game effect on weather abilities, such as Drizzle and Damp Rock)
3) I think making the respective weather summoning move cost two (2) less EN to use wouldn't be too much to give in order to give the weather rocks some love.
 

Frosty

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Damp Rock: Causes Drizzle to cost no energy to activate and reduces the energy cost of Rain Dance by five (5). Extends the duration of rain induced by the holder of this item to six (6) rounds if it would otherwise have a smaller duration. Enables rain to be induced in all arenas where it might otherwise be disallowed, without any kind of restriction.
Heat Rock: Causes Drought to cost no energy to activate and reduces the energy cost of Sunny Day by five (5). Extends the duration of sun induced by the holder of this item to six (6) rounds if it would otherwise have a smaller duration. Enables sun to be induced in all arenas where it might otherwise be disallowed, without any kind of restriction.
Icy Rock: Causes Snow Warning to cost no energy to activate and reduces the energy cost of Hail by five (5). Extends the duration of hail induced by the holder of this item to six (6) rounds if it would otherwise have a smaller duration. Enables hail to be induced in all arenas where it might otherwise be disallowed, without any kind of restriction.
Smooth Rock: Causes Sand Stream to cost no energy to activate and reduces the energy cost of Sandstorm by five (5). Extends the duration of sandstorm induced by the holder of this item to six (6) rounds if it would otherwise have a smaller duration. Enables sandstorm to be used in all arenas where it might otherwise be disallowed, without any kind of restriction.
thoughts?
 
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Eh, I'm probably in the minority here, but I'm not so sure about the "without any restrictions" part. Gym arenas are generally supposed to be tilted in the leader's favor, which for some types can be completely nullified by a certain weather effect. I think it would just hurt gyms such as Fire and Ice too much since you can just bring one or two Pokemon with the weather stone and make them ineffective at doing anything (especially since these are the weaker kinds of gyms in the first place, and both benefit highly from being Doubles+ formats, which makes the problem even worse I feel). This is before getting into stuff like TLRs.

Just my two cents on the matter.
 

JJayyFeather

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Being picky and stuff, Smooth Rock says "Enables rain to be used in all arenas" instead of "Enables sandstorm to be induced in all arenas"
Otherwise, I like it a lot.
 

Frosty

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Regarding TLRs: we allow revenankh to screw with weather entirely. Stones are a lesser evil.

Regarding Gyms: yeah, it can happen, but I think you understimate the opporunity cost and the difficulty to keep the weather your way. I ran the Fire Gym for a good time completely allowing Rain and using Ninetales on almost all battles (so I effectively had sunny day on the arena) and only two people actually tried a Rain approach and both lost. Yeah some people here and there tried something with Rain Dance, but in the end they didn't insist on it and I could keep the weather sunny with Ninetales, Charizard-Y or the fact that all fire mons learn Sunny Day. A similar thing happens with Ice Gym. If the challenger is wasting a mon and an item slot to try to win the weather wars, I think I should at least let him try. It isn't hard for the leader to respond with their weather of choice to keep the weather war in their favor, since the challenger needs to make the first sacrifice in the war, as the default weather is good for the leader.

I understand your concern, but I see it the other way around: if we put that on stones, we allow people to actually use weather based strategies on enviroments where it would be benefitial, at a considerable opportunity cost. I mean, if I disallow stones on arenas where it would actually be a good option...I don't know, I don't feel it is a good idea. Besides, our flavor requirement are so not there that you can end up with an arena that keeps its mechanics fine and dandy even if the weather is changed (check geodude's fire gym for the record).

Sure if more people feel that way, I may grudgingly step back in that point.
 

Frosty

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taking that as a no.

- - - -

We are behind my peronal schedule, so next batch will be bigger than usual. The next are a bunch of weird non-related items. Maybe with tons of items, people will actually bother to pitch in:

Light Clay: Extends the duration of Reflect and Light Screen to nine (9) actions and the duration of Safeguard to six (6) rounds. Increases the Defense boost of Barrier to +3.
BrightPowder: Reduces move accuracy of moves used against the Pokemon by ten (10).
Cleanse Tag: Halves the rate of damage increase on Toxic (e.g. it becomes 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3 over 6 rounds instead of 1,2,3,4,5,6) and increases the rate of decay on Freeze (always 1 action), Sleep (0,1,1 instead of 1,1,2) and paralysis (25,15,5,0 or 20,10,0 instead of 25,20,15,10,5,0). Reduces the damage of Poison and Burn to one (1) DPA.
Metronome: Increases the Base Attack Power dealt by consecutive uses of attacks after their first use by one (1) and one (1) more for each additional use up to a maximum of ten (10) uses. (Ex. An attack used twice has +2 BAP, thrice +3, etc.) Attacks used consecutively incur only half (0.5x) the consecutive move use energy cost.
Rocky Helmet: Causes all contact attacks suffered by the Pokemon to deal 25% of the damage received to the opponent, rounded up.
Shell Bell: Whenever the Pokemon deals damage with an attack, it is healed for 1/8 (x0.125) of the damage dealt, rounded down, but with a minimum of one (1) HP gained.
Evolve to:

Light Clay: Extends the duration of Reflect and Light Screen to twelve (12) actions and the duration of Safeguard to six (6) rounds. Increases the Defense boost of Barrier to +3.
BrightPowder: Reduces move accuracy of moves used against the Pokemon by ten (10). Caps opponent's accuracy at 90% for all moves without perfect accuracy before calculating field effects and Accuracy/Evasion stages.
Cleanse Tag: Halves the rate of damage increase on Toxic (e.g. it becomes 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3 over 6 rounds instead of 1,2,3,4,5,6) and increases the rate of decay on Freeze (0, 0, 1 instead of 0, 1, 2), Sleep (0,1,1 instead of 1,1,2) and paralysis (25,15,5,0 or 20,10,0 instead of 25,20,15,10,5,0). Reduces the damage of Poison and Burn to one (1) DPA. Removes the attack penalty of burn, as well as the possibility of a Full Paralysis.
Metronome: Increases the Base Attack Power dealt by consecutive uses of attacks after their first use by one (1) and one (1) more for each additional use up to a maximum of ten (10) uses. (Ex. An attack used twice has +2 BAP, thrice +3, etc.) Attacks used consecutively incur only half (0.5x) the consecutive move use energy cost. Same-Move Combinations are considered to be the move used twice in a row when applying bap boosts and energy reduction. If a move would receive a bap boosted from this item, it can be used even if the user is tormented.
Rocky Helmet: Causes all contact attacks suffered by the Pokemon to deal 25% of the damage received to the opponent.
Shell Bell: Whenever the Pokemon deals damage with an attack, it is healed for 1/6 of the damage dealt, rounded normally, but with a minimum of one (1) HP gained.
Light Clay: Doubled the duration. I am willing to add some kind of Brick Break immunity (probably for a shorter period) and/or priority boost. Thoughts?
BrightPowder: Since ASB has the extra accuracy for +speed mechanic, using Bright Powder is that weaker when facing those people. The alteration done was so even those moves will suffer from a miss chance. TBH this is as far as I am willing to go, since promoting hax is iffy. But I am open for suggestions regardless.
Cleanse Tag: I updated with new freeze and added a removal of burn's attack penalty as well as paralysis's chance of a FP. It is still weakish tho.
Metronome: I added something about same-move combos and added an immunity to torment for the move repeated. Weird wording but oh well, I accept suggestions.
Rocky Helmet: Removed the rounding.
Shell Bell: I replaced 1/8 with 1/6 and changed from "rounded down" to "rounded normally". So leftovers is matched from 9 damage onwards, 3hp is gained after 15 damage and 4 after 21 damage. I put up a little above leftovers, because shell bell requires you to attack to get the boost, whereas leftovers can get you that even if you don't attack (heck, stalling will get you free hp).


Thoughts?
 
They seem good to me. I don't feel like adding priority to Light Clay, since Odd Incense already does that iirc, and it feels like an innecesary boost. Also, Brick Break immunity would mean that a ton (if not most, didn't check) mons have no way to go through screens (I think the only other options are Focus Energy and Defog) which is huge when it lasts at least 3 rounds, and Brick Break is already a somewhat bad move to use in some situations even if you get rid of screens as the opponent might resist it or just be hit with very low neutral damage. And you might get Encored into it. Gosh, do I hate Encore. But if you happen to add it, make sure to not make immune to Defog too, as Defog really doesn't need a nerf.

I would also add Disable to the immunities that Metronome gives, although that might make it a little OP? I dunno, you need at least 3 consecutive actions using the same move in order for it to be as effective as an Expert Belt, and I think that's enough of a penalty.
 

Frosty

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OK so...

Light Clay: Extends the duration of Reflect and Light Screen to twelve (12) actions and the duration of Safeguard to six (6) rounds. Increases the Defense boost of Barrier to +3.
BrightPowder: Reduces move accuracy of moves used against the Pokemon by ten (10). Caps opponent's accuracy at 90% for all moves without perfect accuracy before calculating field effects and Accuracy/Evasion stages.
Cleanse Tag: Halves the rate of damage increase on Toxic (e.g. it becomes 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3 over 6 rounds instead of 1,2,3,4,5,6) and increases the rate of decay on Freeze (0, 0, 1 instead of 0, 1, 2), Sleep (0,1,1 instead of 1,1,2) and paralysis (25,15,5,0 or 20,10,0 instead of 25,20,15,10,5,0). Reduces the damage of Poison and Burn to one (1) DPA. Removes the attack penalty of burn, as well as the possibility of a Full Paralysis.
Metronome: Increases the Base Attack Power dealt by consecutive uses of attacks after their first use by one (1) and one (1) more for each additional use up to a maximum of ten (10) uses. (Ex. An attack used twice has +2 BAP, thrice +3, etc.) Attacks used consecutively incur only half (0.5x) the consecutive move use energy cost. Same-Move Combinations are considered to be the move used twice in a row when applying bap boosts and energy reduction. If a move would receive a bap boosted from this item, it can be used regardless of Torment, Disable or Imprison.
Rocky Helmet: Causes all contact attacks suffered by the Pokemon to deal 25% of the damage received to the opponent.
Shell Bell: Whenever the Pokemon deals damage with an attack, it is healed for 1/6 of the damage dealt, rounded normally, but with a minimum of one (1) HP gained.
Added torment, disable and imprison to the mix. Only if a move is used consecutively, so it is pretty rare to occur. although I am not sure if this is bound to backfire.

As for brick break immunity for light clay, I was thinking that only for the first 3 actions of the screen, or something of the like.
 

ZhengTann

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Personally I'm iffy towards Brick Break immunity on Light Clay, but in the event it does get through, I'd like to suggest 2a/1r to be good enough, considering that we've had Triples, and 2a Doubles becoming quite a norm.

Also Barrier being there feels nothing but flavourful. But me thinking it's unnecessary shows how much I've fallen times have changed....
 
I like the idea of brick break being debuffed against light clay, maybe it reduces duration by 3 instead of a flat immunity?
However, imo brick break itself would not be affected by ls/reflect in any case
 
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