Not So Fun Under the Sun

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by Derpinator, Aug 30, 2013.

  1. Derpinator

    Derpinator

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    Introduction
    Well, it has certainly been a while since I have been here and it's been a while since I played Pokemon as well. To start off with, this site had certainly change quite a but. No more Luvdiscs :(. Anyway, as I mentioned before, I just started playing Pokemon again and I decided to make a Sun team. With help from my friend on Friendcodes, I made this team for a clan war which has yet to be completed but I did my battle and...I lost. I was pretty sad seeing that I was laddering successfully with this, bringing my <900 rating on my team testing PS account up to >1800 while dancing circles around Rain teams. When I got to my battle, I felt pretty ready when I saw I was facing a Sand team. I had only played one while laddering and had defeated it heads down so I felt pretty weather-proof. I lost in 13 turns. It was bad. I won the weather war but my team was so crippled that it didn't matter. So, I decided it was about time to figure out how to use the new Smogon and get some more help. On that note, here is my team.

    At A Glance

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    In-Depth Look

    [​IMG]

    Ninetales @ Leftovers
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd 200 HP / 196 SDef / 112 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Nasty Plot Will-O-Wisp
    - Energy Ball Sunny Day
    - Fire Blast Flamethrower
    - Hidden Power [Fighting] Pain Split

    No reason to explain Ninetales' presence on this team seeing that this is a Sun team. As for the moveset, I initially ran a more defensive set with Sunny Day and whatnot but I changed it for two reasons, the first being that this team is more offensively based so a defensive set was out of place and the second being that, if Ninetales went down, I lost both my permanent weather and my temporary weather. Because everybody jumps to crush the head of the snake in weather wars, it was best not to put the fate of the team solely into Ninetales' hands/paws. Apart from that, all I have to say is that Ninetales is much bulkier than people expect, especially when it comes to taking Water-type hits in the sun. Also, Fire Blast in the sun wrecks without Nasty Plot and is absolutely devastating, even when resisted, after a single Nasty Plot.

    [​IMG]

    Venusaur @ Life Orb
    Trait: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 72 HP / 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 180 Spd
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SAtk / 30 Spd
    - Growth
    - Sleep Powder Sludge Bomb
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Giga Drain

    Once again, no real explanation needed, it's Venusaur and this is a Sun team so if your asking why he is here, you probably shouldn't be rating. Just kidding, I appreciate all help offered no matter what, unless you tell me to switch out Ninetales. As for the set, I chose Sleep Powder over Sludge Bomb simply because Sleep is awesome and so is Growth. The EV spread may seem to be all over the place but it essentially aims to give Venusaur some bulk while retaining enough Speed to make Chlorophyll a pain and, of course, maximizing the Special Attack stat.

    [​IMG]

    Sawsbuck @ Life Orb
    Trait: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 112 HP / 248 Atk / 148 Spd 4 HP/ 252 Atk / 252 Spd 252 Atk / 20 Def / 236 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Swords Dance Megahorn
    - Horn Leech
    - Return Double Edge
    - Nature Power

    This choice probably needs some explanation because, unlike Venusaur, it isn't necessarily a staple on Sun teams. Reasons for choosing this Pokemon: Chlorophyll, physical attacker, comparatively unexpected, strong neutral hitter. There is the list, now here are some details if you care. While Venusaur is a Special Chlorophyll user, Sawsbuck is a Physical Chlorophyll user, giving this team a speedy physical attacker to get around Special walls. The only really iffy part of Sawsbuck's move choice was Swords Dance over Hi Jump Kick. The reason I choose SD was because it allowed me to gain momentum when my opponent switched or was asleep. However, this came at the cost of hitting Hydreigon among other Pokemon with super effective moves. This usually could be remedied by a +2 Return, so the loss wasn't too great. Probably the best thing that Sawsbuck brings to this team is Nature Power/Earthquake. This usually OHKOs Fire-types that switch into Sawsbuck and definitely helps in regards to coverage. To make it even better, Nature Power is Sucker Punch-proof, so Toxicroak fails to clean up weakened Sawsbuck, even in the rain. The EV spread is relatively standard, aiming to bulk Sawsbuck up while maintaining Speed and Attack at usable levels.

    [​IMG]

    Heatran @ Air Balloon
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Naive Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Fire Blast
    - Earth Power
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    Heatran essentially serves as the Dragon check in this team, being able to take Dragon Claw and Outrage and hit back with with HP Ice. Apart from that, Heatran can check opposing Sun teams, especially Venusaur, and threaten them with either Fire Blast or Earth Power. Apart from that, Heatran also sets up Stealth Rock to discourage switching and penalize the opponent when they do. Also, SR softens up some opposing counters to make them easier to KO later.

    [​IMG]

    Victini @ Choice Band Choice Scarf
    Trait: Victory Star
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - V-create
    - Bolt Strike
    - Brick Break
    - U-turn

    The second anti-weather Pokemon and the third Sun abuser. Relatively straightforward in the former role, with Bolt Strike OHKOing Politoed and Brick Break dealing with Tyranitar unless it is weakened, in which case you can opt to use U-turn. Other than that, U-turn helps with clean-up of weakened Pokemon. I would show you the numbers and try to explain why V-create wrecks, but you guys have imagination so I'm sure you can understand what STAB Banded V-create coming off a base 100 Attack in the Sun can do to Pokemon that resist the attack let alone are weak to Fire. The only real debate here was Band or Scarf and I chose Band to score KOs that wouldn't be possible otherwise. However, at certain points, especially during weather wars, Scarf would have been a game changer but, in general, Band does a better job given that the Sun is out.

    [​IMG]

    Starmie @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spd / 4 Def
    Timid Nature
    - Rapid Spin
    - Recover
    - Psyshock Thunderbolt
    - Ice Beam

    The Spinner of this team and the answer to some rather annoying Pokemon. Ice Beam is particularly for Garchomp which only has one other counter on this team, Heatran, but is obviously open for all Dragons. Psyshock helps deal with Terrakion, Breloom, Keldeo and other Fighting types while also aiding with Tentacruel. Recover allows Starmie to stay alive for quite a while, allowing it to come in and spin often while waiting for Garchomp to show up.

    Conclusion

    Just to help with your train of thought if you need something to help me with, Calm Mind Latias and Sand teams are really difficult to get around and opposing Sun teams tend to be annoying as well. Thanks for reading and I hope you rate too! Make sure to leave a Luvdi- I mean a Like, if you liked it!
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2013
  2. Chesnaught

    Chesnaught

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    This team looks really solid and good imo. Not much else to say, except maybe using either Dragon Claw / Draco Meteor > Dragon Pulse on D-Nite. But other than that not much else to say, great job man =)
    ~Cresselia~
    Derpinator likes this.
  3. Derpinator

    Derpinator

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    Thanks, I'll change Dragon Pulse to Draco Meteor.
  4. Chesnaught

    Chesnaught

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    No problem, have fun with this team =)
    ~Cresselia~
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  5. Halcyon.

    Halcyon.
    is a Community Contributor

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    Hey Derpinator, nice sun team!

    The biggest issue I see you having is hazards. Everything you have is either weak to Stealth Rock or susceptible to Spikes (or both :0 in Ninetale's and Victini's cases). I also think that having only Espeon is a poor choice for dealing with hazards, since you'll have to have perfect prediction skills to prevent hazards being laid by Ferrothorn or Forretress. Instead, I recommend Defensive Starmie over Espeon. Starmie may seem like an odd choice for a sun team, but it actually has its uses. Ice Beam is useful for taking out stray Garchomp that can give your team trouble. Meanwhile, Psyshock is a great STAB move to hit Terrakion, Breloom, and Keldeo with. The main draw, though, is Rapid Spin + Recover, which means that Starmie should b able to keep hazards off your side of the field all match long.

    In case you didn't know, you're talking to the guy who just finished writing the Sawsbuck analysis :cool:, so I think I can help you out with your set. First, there's no reason not to run full Speed. You aren't really surviving anything special with that extra bulk, and you want to be able to outspeed all the other common Chlorophyll sweepers like Venusaur and Lilligant. Also,
    I would recommend running Megahorn over Swords Dance and Double Edge over Return. You already have Venusaur to sweep, but Sawsbuck makes an amazing revenge killer with Megahorn and Double Edge. It outspeeds and OHKOs Latias (even CM versions!), as well as Celebi, and can revenge kill many Dragons such as Salamence and Latios with Double Edge (a OHKO on both with Rocks up even without a boost).

    Finally, I don't really like Sleep Powder on Venusaur. I would give it Sludge Bomb instead, but that's just me.

    Anyway, hope I was able to help! If you have any questions, feel free to ask me. Good luck with the team!

    sets (open)

    [​IMG]
    Starmie @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spd / 4 Def
    - Ice Beam
    - Psyshock
    - Rapid Spin
    - Recover
    [​IMG] (Sawsbuck-W is best Sawsbuck)
    Sawsbuck @ Life Orb
    Trait: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
    Adamant Nature
    - Horn Leech
    - Double-Edge
    - Nature Power
    - Megahorn


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  6. Derpinator

    Derpinator

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    Thank you very much, I appreciate the help! The Sawsbuck suggestions will be taken immediately because they make too much sense. As for Starmie, I will have to test a bit because losing my back up weather may be a big hit but, regardless of that, I will still test it out, thanks!

    Also, Sawsbuck-Winter is the best!!
  7. MCBarrett

    MCBarrett i love it when you call me big hoppa
    is an official Team Rater
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    Hey Derpinator, pretty nice team you have here! Sun is very matchup reliant in general so don't get too discouraged by your loss. I think there are a few changes you could make to have your team matchup better against some of the threats that you mentioned and against Mamoswine and Dragon Spam, both of which seem like major problems for your team.

    Looking at your team, Dragonite seems pretty redundant. You say that you are using it to put pressure on opposing Weather Starters, which it does, but your Sawsbuck can do the same exact thing. By running Hi Jump Kick over Swords Dance you can easily OHKO opposing Tyranitar and Standard Defensive Politoed takes 65-78% with Horn Leech while Specs Toed has a 75% chance to be OHKO'd without SR. These changes to Sawsbuck will allow you to use that extra spot where Dragonite was to give your team some much needed support.

    For this spot I would recommend using Offensive Heatran. Heatran provides great support for Sun Teams since it can tank at least one strong Dragon attack that would otherwise be guaranteed to get an OHKO against your team, and with and Offensive set it can hit back for a Revenge KO. Plus, Heatran can set up Stealth Rocks, which your team is currently lacking. I would recommend using Fire Blast, HP Ice and Earth Power as your moves and you can run Air Balloon, Life Orb or Leftovers, whatever you are most comfortable with.

    Now, to help against CM Latios and Mamoswine a little bit I would recommend using Choice Scarf over Choice Band on Victini. Choice Scarf allows you to outspeed CM Latios to break its Sub and go out into Sawsbuck to revenge KO, plus it provides you with a great Pivot option. Against Mamoswine, running Scarf allows you to still outspeed after V-Create so it cannot revenge KO you as easily. These are just small bonuses to using Scarf though, the big benefit would be to gain momentum so you can keep up the Offensive pressure on the opposing team. Your team has enough fire power to offset the loss of Choice Band anyway.

    Lastly, I like Halcyon's Starmie suggestion and Venusaur suggestion so I would definitely suggest implementing both of those. Starmie is another check to Mamoswine, taking hits decently well if needed with a Defensive spread and Venusaur becomes a much more potent sweeper with Sludge Bomb, plus missing Sleep Powder is never fun.

    Hope my suggestions helped! Let me know how it works and good luck with the team!
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  8. ShootingStarmie

    ShootingStarmie
    is an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor
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    Hi there, I'm here to rate your team. So by the looks of it, it's really nice actually. I generally don't like Sun teams, but this is pretty cool. However, I have a few suggestions that I think will make your team that bit better.

    I'm generally seeing a very big weakness to Mamoswine. It can revenge kill Venusaur, Sawsbuck, and Dragonite. It also hits Victini, Ninetales, and Espeon on the switch, so nothing is really safe to switch in. So, my biggest suggestion is change Espeon to Forretress. Now I know a Steel type doesn't usually go well with Sun teams, but Forretress offers great support for your team. Firstly, Forretress rapid spins, and keeps rocks off of the field and is arguably more reliable than Espeon in keeping Rocks off of the field. It is a great switch into Mamoswine, and stops things like Banded Dragonite from wreaking your team. It also provides SR, which you never previously had. Here's the set.

    [​IMG]
    Forretress (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 248 HP / 136 Def / 124 SDef
    Relaxed Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Stealth Rock
    - Rapid Spin
    - Volt Switch
    - Gyro Ball

    So Forretress is supports your team really nicely and offers a solid switch into things like Mamoswine and banded Dragonite. Stealth Rock is so important in competitive battling, and needs to be on every team imo. Rapid Spin keeps SR off of the field, allowing your Victini and Dragonite to come in as they please. Volt Switch gains momentum for your team, and gives you freee switch in's to one of your sweepers. Finally, Gyro Ball hits Mamoswine and Kyurem-B for great damage.

    So, my next suggestion would be to replace Sawsbuck with Volcarona. I really feel Sawsbuck + Venusaur is kinda redundant, as I believe it's more beneficial for your team to add Volcarona, as it really helps with CM Latias (which you said you were having problems with. Volcarona is terrifying on Sun teams, and Forretress keeps Rocks off the field nicely for it. Here's the set.

    [​IMG]
    Volcarona @ Leftovers
    Trait: Flame Body
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
    Modest Nature
    - Quiver Dance
    - Bug Buzz
    - Fiery Dance
    - Giga Drain

    Other than that, I like this team. Good luck in the future, and I hope my suggestions helped you

    Shurtugal, Derpinator and Spinda like this.
  9. Derpinator

    Derpinator

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    Thanks for the help! I already changed Swords Dance to Megahorn to deal with Latias, so Hi Jump Kick probably won't be added. Offensive Heatran will definitely be considered seeing that having a Pokemon solely for weather countering does seem kinda bad now that I think of it, my bad. I am finally going to implement the Choice Scarf change because Band is killing me now. Also, I just played 4 games, missed Fire Blast seven times and Sleep Powder eleven times, so Sludge Bomb it is. As for Starmie, I will look into that or Forretress as was also suggested, thanks again!


    Thanks for the help! I will look into the Forretress change because Starmie was also suggested, but now Espeon has to go. Also, Volcarona seems like a good idea, but it will have to take some testing to make the final decision because to Chlorophyll users has been great so far but I can think of many situations where Sawsbuck wasn't too great.
  10. Derpinator

    Derpinator

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    I chose Starmie over Forretress and will test Volcarona now.
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  11. Derpinator

    Derpinator

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    Not liking Volcarona, too many Special attackers, also Nature Power/Eq is important.
  12. Derpinator

    Derpinator

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  13. Oh Captain

    Oh Captain

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    Hey Derpinator - I wrote a rate and somehow deleted it so I'll try again here.

    First off I feel like a more defensive ninetales set would be better, yes you lose out on offensive presence but in reality, ninetales has very little if any at all. And with your team being so heavily reliant on sun it would be better to have the sun around longer than do more damage with the weather inducer.

    Secondly I don't really support the change from Banded Vic > Scarf vic, because banded functions amazingly in sun and still hurts a lot out of sun.
    This is preference mostly but with your team having chlorophyll abusers already the extra speed is something I would find less important as opposed to more power from that band.

    Next outside of heatrans air balloon you have nothing to switch into ground moves, and with heatran being your only dragon resist/latios check that balloon is gone in no time. I suggest removing sawskbuck for something with ground immunity at least, an offensive dragon type would work nicely here as you can still have water resists and most offensive dragons can kill of heatran for you anyways, maybe something like Hydreigon or Dragonite, this too would fall on preference but having nothing to switch into earthquakes is a huge issue.

    you seem to have issues switching into Terrakion at this point as you have no rock resist either and your Venu and starmie/victini all don't switch into terrakion well at all. I'm not sure what you can do to fix this issue, while you can revenge it with a chlorophyll abuser or even starmie in most cases it can just leave and come back and then you have to sac something again. And out of sun your only shot is starmie really which can be trapped by ttar extremly easily with the set you're currently running. I'm not sure how to fix this maybe run forretress over starmie to at least be able to check terrakion well, and help with the mamoswine issue that someone else stated before. This gives you a secondary checks to physical dragons as well.
    Lastly if you do keep starmie consider fixing some evs up a bit, you run max speed but nothing to hit opposing starmie with, which is why you would run that speed, if you keep starmie run 252hp/32def/224 speed which while it isnt the best set for starmie at least this way you don't waste evs.

    hope this helped, good luck

    Tales Ev's; EVs: 200 HP / 196 SDef / 112 Spd
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  14. chimpact

    chimpact fire nation
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    Hey there, finally got around to testing your team a bit.

    I am going to have to agree with captain and give your ninetales a defensive spread. hippowdown is a pretty annoying mon to your team and you really need the residual damage on it with will o wisp to deter it from switching in often and just wearing it down. with starmie and burn, it won't be able to set up rocks and it will actually be hurt more by the burn than ninetales is by stealth rock just by the nature of your team. A moveset of Sunny Day / Will - O - Wisp / Flamethrower / Pain Split [Roar] is an ideal movest for a defensive tails. Roar could also be used but the main reason why i use it on ninetales is so volcarona is easier to deal with and your team doesnt seem to have a big problem with it. The EV spread Captain listed is the one I would go with as well. An odd HP number ensures that you live stealth rocks multiple times (just in case pain split is not an option), has enough speed to outspeed base 95's (Kyurem-B, Gliscor), and the rest in special defense to handle politoed much better.

    Additionally, I would alter the EV spread of sawsbuck a bit. You only need 20 defense EVs to live a jolly Ice shard 100% of the time from mamoswine after rocks or life orb recoil (at full). You can still ive adamant ice shards and even if mamo gets a high roll with adamant, heatran will be able to outpace and handle it. You outspeed everything in sun anyway and I've never needed to speed tie with Kyurem-B outside of sun. A spread of 252 Atk / 20 Def / 236 Speed allows you to outspeed jolly base 80s like mamo outside of sun.

    I would also experiment with your Venusaur set. Sleep powder with lefties can let you handle Garchomp and some other problematic pokes for sun [dragons, heatran, volcarona etc], a lot better by essentially eliminating them from the game. Garchomp's a huge threat to your team especially Yache chomp because of heatran being your main answer to it.

    Hope I helped dude!
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  15. Derpinator

    Derpinator

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    Thanks for the help! I'll make the Ninetales set and EV changes as well as the Sawsbuck and Starmie EV changes. Also, I'll get to testing the Venusaur change.
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2013
  16. Derpinator

    Derpinator

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    Bump, decided against the Venusaur change.
  17. dragons

    dragons

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    Hey there the team is solid although i think stall could cause u problems as constant switching will wrack up hazards and jellicent can take on Starmie all day long while taking a pittance in damage so u should probably replace psy shock for the boltbeam coverage and make venasaur mixed as it can then be an effective stall breaker or run taunt on heatran
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  18. Derpinator

    Derpinator

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    Made the BoltBeam change, not sure about mixed Venusaur though.

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